BBC: Why do men shout at women in the street? (Hollaback!)

[pampango]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12771938

It's one of a new wave of groups tackling an age old problem. At the forefront of the movement is the international Hollaback! campaign group. Having started in the US, it will open another dozen chapters next week, everywhere from India to Croatia.

Hollaback! and Anti-Street Harassment UK offer forums in which women can share their experiences, share photos of their harassers and view maps of where previous incidents have occurred. Day in and day millions of women are whistled at or shouted at on public streets. It's unpleasant, and for Hollaback! activists it's all part of the nasty business of street harassment.

They're in a long tradition - going back to the 1970s Reclaim the Night movement - of trying to make the streets safer and more pleasant for women. Much has been done, in the West at least, to deal with harassment in the workplace, but the streets remain a different proposition.

When a man shouts "hi gorgeous" or "come over here love", the recipient of the comments might be annoyed, but the remarks are often disregarded by bystanders, so the problem goes largely unaddressed. "Women are advised to ignore it, and we don't speak up about it. Therefore, these men keep on doing it and push boundaries further and further," says Simister.

[seabeyond]

1. it goes deeper than just yelling on the street, and unaddressed, will not solve the issue

a society that starts objectifying the girls and women from the youngest of age creates conditioning where boys/men are to objectify adn girls/women are to accept.

on edit: i do like the idea of passerbys not accepting

[apocalypsehow]

78. Maybe we could just pass a law banning all talking or staring in public. n/t.

[seabeyond]

82. because there is no middle of the road, like learning or evolving or civil. rollin eyes. nt

[apocalypsehow]

92. In a free country, not everyone wants to "learn" or "evolve" or "civil" (whatever that means).

Believe it or not, some folks are not interested in your "middle of the road." They just like to look at pretty girls and make comments. But somehow I doubt they had these problems in Victorian England - or Puritan-era Massachusetts. I was just giving you some ideas to help bring those halcyon days back, as that appears to be the eras you are eager to replicate in 2011. :thumbsup:

[seabeyond]

96. and some white boys feel superior yelling out the n word. nt

[apocalypsehow]

99. Like I said, let's just pass a law banning all speaking or staring in public. That will deal with

every one of your hypothetical's, even the extremely dubious ones (as see your latest reply). As that appears to be what you want, I don't understand your opposition to my proposal. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

100. your post is irrelevent. nt

[apocalypsehow]

103. Okay, just trying to help.

:toast:

[Scout]

107. you are NOT trying to help :rofl: n/t

[apocalypsehow]

109. Sure I am. Everything I propose takes care of the problem as perceived. Does it not?

:thumbsup:

[LiberalLoner]

234. So you think guys yelling things like "hey baby come sit on my face" is not

a problem and does not make women feel a little concerned that she might be raped? How about guys exposing themselves or rubbing up against women or copping a feel or raping women? Are all of those things acceptable in your world view? Because I'm getting the impression that they are.

[apocalypsehow]

I'm getting the impression that you cannot discuss an issue without putting words in other folks

mouths and ascribing the worst possible motives to their views, among other things that basically amount to one long string of personal attacks.

You might try to simply debate issue at hand instead of engaging in those kind of internet-discussion behaviors. :thumbsup:

[LiberalLoner]

243. I am speaking of things that have actually happened to me (and many other women.) What I

would like very much to know is if you find those incidences to be acceptable behavior on the part of males and not a problem and things that we women should just accept without protest.

I HAVE met quite a few men in my life who viewed child rape and rape of adult women as acceptable. I truly want to know, are you like them, do you feel the same way they do about these issues? I ask this because some of the things you are saying are things they would say.

[LiberalLoner]

246. I've listened to men talk about children being raped and heard one say

how cool it would be to "do" a ten-year-old. I have heard a man say "she probably liked it" when a news story came on about a toddler who was kidnapped and raped repeatedly in the making of porn.

I listen to those things, and remained silent. I thought instead of how I spent my childhood at recess, away from the other children who were playing, and I would stand at the edge of the road, willing myself to run out in front of the big concrete-making trucks that would rumble on by. I guess I believed they wouldn't be able to stop in time because they were such big and heavy vehicles. I never did muster the courage to dash out in front of one of those trucks, and I hated myself for my lack of courage.

I try to understand this world. I try to understand why some men do those things and why some men condone those things. I have tried all my 49 years on this planet to understand. And the only answer I could ever come up with is, they want us dead. They want all women dead. I used to fantasize all the time as a child about all women joining in solidarity one day and committing suicide and simultaneously killing all their female children. Then the men would wake up the next morning to find a world without any females at all. I spent time wondering what their reaction would be. Would they be overjoyed? In my mind I believed they would be.

[hfojvt]

280. I bet there are far more men like Charlie Harper of 2.5 men

They would love to have a harem of beautiful young women to dance, party and copulate with and another woman or two to do the cooking, cleaning and shopping for them. The reason they learn those negative attitudes is because in the real world, real women will rebuff them, insult them and fight with them instead of being helpful, and they cannot afford housekeepers either. I cannot believe that there are very many men fantasizing about a ten year old, although unfortunately there are some. Unfortunately, even 1 in 1,000 would mean 150,000 such people in this country. Years back I was surprised that there were almost 1,000 sex offenders in Iowa alone. And those are the ones who have been caught and prosecuted.

[LiberalLoner]

284. Maybe you are right - it's a matter of expectations versus real life and when their

expectations are not met, they sometimes get angry. I am thinking of that one man in Pennsylvania who went into the gym and started shooting and killing a bunch of the young women there because he felt entitled to their sexual services and they did not comply with his demands so he felt they deserved to die.

I wonder sometimes if our media (including porn) is building up expectations of women that can not be met. Obviously not every man can have a harem of hundreds of nubile, unusually gorgeous young women, even if young women were not allowed a say in the matter. If young men grow up thinking they are entitled to that and deserve that, wouldn't it mean they would feel anger at their expectations not being met? And perhaps that anger might be expressed by violent acts against females, both grown or under the age of 18.

All I know is it's commonly known that 1 in 3 females are molested before the age of 18. It can't be just one or two men doing all that molesting, am I right? If one in three get molested....maybe perhaps one in ten men are molestors? Or something along those lines? Or one in twenty perhaps? I don't know the exact ratio but I'm guessing it's not, say, one in a thousand just from the sheer logistics of the thing. A man would have to be in a position to molest lots of little girls if he were able to commit 1,000 molestations before being caught. It's very very very common for young females to be molested, and also fairly common for grown women to be raped, and it stands to reason that there are lots of men who are doing these actions, not just a very few.

It doesn't surprise me at all that there are nearly 1,000 registered sex offenders in Iowa (or any other state.) I'm pretty sure the number who have not been caught yet is even higher.

A good many of we women are very aware of how dangerous a country this is for women.

[hfojvt]

289. I find 1 in 3 to be hard to believe

I am guessing that must include lots of 14 year old girls being 'molested' by their 15 year old boyfriends. And it is not really 'common' for grown women to be raped. Even if there are a million rapes in every year that is 1 million incidences or one million really horrible days. But out of 100 million women and 365 days of the year there are 36,500 million total days. 1 out of 36,500 is not very common. It's less than .003%. The other 99.997% of the time is non-rape.

You seem to want to condemn most males, and for your last line, I would argue that this is also a dangerous country for men and boys and not just because of the threats from other men and boys. The world is a cruel place with brutal cold, wind, earthquakes, mountain lions, tsunamis and also with many people being mean to each other.

If you think of humans as animals, which we are, then our behaviour seems kinda typical. Again, I would compare people to my dogs. I have three. A female, a male and their daughter, the one of the eight that I kept. To let them outside I have to pick up the daughter, because she won't let mom outside without attacking her. She seems to be better friends with dad and they are about the same size, but have not decided yet who is the beta dog (presumably I am the alpha dog). They spend a fair amount of time hanging out together and playing in the back yard, but they also fight. Daughter went after dad when he tried to eat (after she had already eaten) and I had to separate them, or felt like it was a good idea to do so. The daughter is in heat now, and I can see dad sometimes in the yard trying to mount his own daughter, who is less than 1 year old. He has had an operation so he cannot connect, but that does not keep him from trying - and with his own underage daughter. Such is male behaviour when a male has not been taught to be civilized and given some healthier outlets.

[LiberalLoner]

296. I invite you to research the subject. I only know my own experience and the research I have read

and also what has been told to me by therapists I have gone to. It is very common to deny or minimize the harm done to women - that is a big reason why it has been allowed to continue. For instance, when confronted with the men who were raped as boys by priests, the church leadership at first denied any harm that had resulted from the rapes. One victim answered, "I think about suicide every day..."

I don't at all want to condemn all men. I only condemn men who rape or harm women in other ways. In my view, you seem to want to absolve all men who rape children of blame because after all a dog wants to mate his underage daughter so it's just natural and we shouldn't get upset by it or anything.

This thread has convinced me that DU is openly misognynistic and not a safe place for women and I am therefore leaving. Really offensive, disgusting posts are left standing with the approval of the mods and any woman who tries to speak up against the misogyny has her posts deleted.

[seabeyond]

298. . nt

[freshwest]

283. Nearly got into fights with male coworkers who said these things when working construction.

I would not tolerate such things in my vicinity. They had to respect my views since I would not give in and they had to back off, generally in shame.

I give no quarter in this area, and never will, anymore than I will allow a person to make racial or other slurs in my hearing with challenging.

I used to puzzle over the things you talk about, then began to fight back, verbally, physically and any other way I could. Don't give up, no matter how many scars you get along the way.

You are worth as much as anyone else. Don't deny the person that you really are, the spirit that is within you is infinite.

I know it doesn't feel that way some days, but feelings come and go like the shadows of clouds. You are eternal.

[LiberalLoner]

285. Thank you so much! Oh, bless you for fighting back! I hope your spirit spreads to

millions of other men, not just here at DU but everywhere, and around the whole world, so that the world becomes a safer place for women and children to live in.

And thank you. I am still here. Like that song "The Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkle..


In the clearing stands a boxer
And a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of ev'ry glove that layed him down
Or cut him till he cried out
In his anger and his shame
"I am leaving, I am leaving"
But the fighter still remains

[Cid_B]

294. You must hang with a different crowd...

I'm trying to imagine a conversation with anyone I know, even in passing, where things like "how cool it would be to do a 10 year old" are said...

1) I just can't
2) The immediate world ending backlash

You might need some new friends.. Sheesh...

[LiberalLoner]

295. They were assholes I worked with and yeah I had nothing to do with them outside of work. n/t

[fishwax]

244. says the guy who played the Victorian/Puritan card in his second post in the subthread

what's that about ascribing false motives? ;)

[meow2u3]

262. If any dork told me, "Hey, baby, come sit on my face", I'd come back with...

"If I sat on your face, I'd crush your skull"! :evilgrin:

[Name removed]

268. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

142. I imagine respect for the individual...

"help bring those halcyon days back, as that appears to be the eras you are eager to replicate in 2011."


I imagine respect for the individual can be quite repressive for many people, and compel them to make false equivalencies to better validate their own biases.

[polmaven]

159. Well - Where to begin!

First - In a free country, if men look at pretty "girls" and make comments, that is likely already illegal.

Second - I guess it only matters that men want to harass women, and women should just get over being angry about it, because it is, after all, a modern world, and being treated like an object, rather than a human being with an equal value to men is just not to be expected.

I do feel badly for the women in your life.

[seabeyond]

163. the thing

there probably are not any women in his life, hence, the issue

[apocalypsehow]

208. Ooooh - you got me! Pardon me while I hum a few bars of Hank Williams "I'm so lonesome I could cry"

:cry:

[apocalypsehow]

206. Well - Where to end!

See Post #78 above. Problem solved. :thumbsup:

"I do feel badly for the women in your life"

Why? That's a curious comment to make. :shrug:

[polmaven]

228. I feel badly for any women

who live with misogynists.

[apocalypsehow]

241. Except none of the women I live with live with a misogynist, though they do live with someone who is

capable of discussing and debating the issues of the day without engaging in personal attacks and silly insults.

It's a pretty nifty way to do business. :thumbsup:

[polmaven]

257. I'm quite sure

you don't consider yourself to be the least bit of a sexist. I guess that would be in the eye of the beholder. My statement is based solely on your apparent disregard for the rights of women, particularly when you so blithely state that some people don't want to be enlightened, and that is evidently OK with you. I guess women should just live with being demeaned.

I also noted your use of the word "girls" when speaking of women. No male over the age of 18 would appreciate being called a boy, but so many men continue to call females "girls" well into adult years.

[raccoon]

179. Just a wild guess--you're a guy and never been subject to the kind of comments being discussed here?

I betcha the problem did exist in " Victorian England - or Puritan-era Massachusetts"--just as rape did. Only it was the victim who was shamed for being raped.

[RainDog]

233. In Victorian England women who went out by themselves were assumed to be whores

and were propositioned simply for walking down the street.

women who worked in shops were assumed to be whores and were propositioned because they were out of their homes.

so, what you're talking about is a reinforcement of Victorian attitudes and actions, not a return to them.

And maybe not everyone wants to be civil, but it's sort of disgusting when women feel like they have to limit their activities b/c they feel threatened by men because, as I know from experience, making comments is just the beginning sometimes.

When I was younger, I used to like to go to the beach by myself in the early afternoon after work - my work hours were weird and I was in school, too, and no one was usually available to go with me anyway. I would take a nap sometimes b/c I was getting by on about 3 hours of sleep a night. So, one time I was dozing there and all of a sudden three guys were standing over me making comments about my, uh, reproductive organs. Like they had proprietary rights to say things simply because I was there. So, I got up and got my stuff and found a park office station (this was on Cape Florida) and complained and said the guys should be kicked out of the park.

but it was a public place and there was no way they would be prevented from returning and, so, I never went back there again because I felt threatened by them and also angry that they thought it was okay to talk about my "pussy" and, if you think that's okay too - you're the one with the problem.

I felt threatened by them because I had had other experiences where guys had tried to corner me after making remarks.

but, you know... there are other situations where this isn't such a big issue - where it's just sort of a way to deal with embarrassing situations. one time I was wearing a shirt with frog clasps (the "buttons" were cloth and so were the loops.) and I reached over to get something and the clasps all popped out of loops and... there I was. the man who was the customer I was helping just sort of smiled and said... it's going to be a great day! and I laughed too and buttoned the shirt up again and went on with my business.

there's a BIG difference between those two situations.

but you're confusing the two.

[Generic Other]

279. I remember being picked up while sunbathing on a dock by two teenage boys

who intended to toss me in the lake. I was sunbathing in a public place oblivious to my surroundings feeling safe because there were other people nearby. The teens came by and ambushed me. They grabbed my arms and legs, scaring the hell out of me. Half asleep, but I fought like a tigress. Honestly, I did not know I had it in me. They put me down. Then swore at me. Called me a "bitch." Like I somehow was at fault for daring to fight back.

Women all have these stories. Kind of creepy that some men don't get it.

[LiberalLoner]

286. Isn't it though? To be honest when some men make posts that show they obviously don't

"get it" my heart races and I get that "danger, danger, danger" rush of adrenaline. I know those are men I would not want anything to do with - mean I would avoid for my own safety.

[TBF]

276. And that is why we have laws against hate speech - because

some people don't understand what is appropriate. I do understand that capitalists are eager to rape and pillage wherever they go, but as far as I'm concerned women should not be one of their targets.

[LiberalLoner]

278. Amen. I wish the US had laws against hate speech the way the Europeans do. There are some

media figures who don't dare go to Europe because they would be arrested or not allowed in at all!

[Scout]

106. stupid, useless, strawman n/t

[apocalypsehow]

110. Gee, that's not a very nice thing to say. Perhaps we should pass a law.... n/t.

[Kingofalldems]

133. At it again I see

[jtown1123]

136. That has nothing to do with this conversation. Not wanted.

[catabryna]

2. It's called a cat call...

and, some guy whistling at my 45 year old legs, is not something I'm going to need therapy for. Must just be me. :D

[Brickbat]

13. I have never needed therapy for street harassment, but there have been incidents where it has

wrecked my day.

[Shagbark Hickory]

32. I always thought those were called "compliments"

:silly:

[Brickbat]

34. "Bring that over here so I can get a piece of it" doesn't always feel complimentary.

[Shagbark Hickory]

115. Good point. That's sorta rapish, really, isn't it?

[Brickbat]

167. It's a lot more along the line of what I've had yelled, said, whispered and called to me on the

street by men I don't know than "Hey, great smile!" or "You're looking strong and confident today!"

[LiberalLoner]

266. Or grabbing the crotch while saying "yo baby suck on this" - not a compliment. n/t

[blondeatlast]

38. There's complimentary--and there's gross. You seem unable to discern the difference.

Men who can't tell the difference aren't worthy of my attention.

[Shagbark Hickory]

114. What makes you so sure I'm a man?

[Scout]

118. is your profile accurate? LOL n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

194. Must be a default setting.

[blondeatlast]

219. Did I claim that you were? Please point that part out. nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

222. You said, and I quote: " Men who can't tell the difference aren't worthy of my attention."

Was this not directed at me?

[blondeatlast]

237. It was directed to gross males, Apparently you think you fit into

one of those categories but it was intended for gross males in general.

[Shagbark Hickory]

290. I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

[jtown1123]

49. NO. This is disgusting and a way to shame and humiliate women.

[seabeyond]

55. it really is used as a tool to. i dont get that women dont get it.

many time, it will be men that dont have a chance in hell. adn this is used to put those women way out of their league, in place, for their own ego.

you dont see the really hot... wanted men, reduce themselves to this behavior

[jtown1123]

64. Yes. This harassment never leads to sex, so it is a way for men to wield power

over someone weaker in public. Did you see the video of the woman on the subway who stopped the train because a man flashed her? It was amazing to see a woman fight back against this disgusting behavior.

[Shagbark Hickory]

116. Geez, I guess I should stop saying stuff like this to guys then, huh?

[hfojvt]

121. I can think of many examples in my own life, where it went the other way

I have received many derogatory remarks shouted at me from women. And at least a couple of times, a group of construction workers were hooting and hollering at me while I played basketball at a nearby park.

To some degree it is really just a group of bored people standing around or walking around looking for entertainment. At least for guys, nothing is more entertaining than an attractive woman.

I am not sure what the girl's excuse is. Perhaps it is just that as a bodaciously skinny guy, and with glasses, I unfortunately draw some attention.

[CTyankee]

171. There was a SCOTUS case where men were sexually harassing a heterosexual man at work.

It was a while back. The Court ruled that heterosexual men COULD be sexually harassed by other heterosexual men in the work place and that constituted sexual harassment. Before that case, it was assumed that only women or gay men could be subjected to sexual harassment on the job.

The case was Oncale v. Sundowner and SCOTUS was unanimous in its decision. I wrote a paper on it in a course I took in grad school.

[fishwax]

54. not usually, no

[Shagbark Hickory]

117. Sounds like there are some instances it would be a compliment. Please elaborate.

[fishwax]

119. obviously I can't speak to every situation

There may or may not be such instances where it actually is a compliment. :shrug:

But in general, I don't think that the things a guy shouts to women he doesn't know on the street are likely to be intended (or received) strictly as compliments.

[Scout]

120. .... and, so what if it was intended as a compliment, or not?

he has a right to speak, big fuckin' deal.

he doesn't have a right to control my reaction or lack of same.

it's ARROGANT to assume that a woman you don't even know gives a pile of poop what you think of her, how she looks of if you want her to suck your dick. get over yourselves already :shrug:


by you, your, he, i am talking about men that catcall, not posters here.

[fishwax]

123. definitely arrogant, and can also be threatening -- the thing about the "compliment" issue

is that it is often an excuse for guys to not examine their own behavior or the implications of the behavior of other males towards women.

If I read your post correctly, you're saying that from the woman's perspective, whether or not it was "intended" as a compliment is irrelevant and need not have any bearing on how one reacts. Certainly I agree with that.

But I also think men who might be tempted to fall back on the tired "it's just a compliment" argument would do well to think about whether or not such behavior is actually "complimentary."

[jtown1123]

124. I LIKE YOU. Great response.

[Scout]

128. thank you, thank you so much :-) n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

204. Let me run this one by you. "(slurping sound), Looking booty-licious today"

[fishwax]

205. obviously not

:shrug:

[Shagbark Hickory]

207. How about: "You're sooooo cute!"

[seabeyond]

209. if you are interested in a woman, how about talking to her like a .....

person.

it always worked for me.

or is it merely figuring out thngs you can shout out to a woman that is passing you by and you have no chance in hell with?

[Shagbark Hickory]

212. How about if you whisper it instead of shout? And what if you are passing her vs the other way aroun

d?

[seabeyond]

216. how about

just leave her alone. why should she care what you think about her. why would you presume, that there is any reason to give your opinion of her at all?

[Shagbark Hickory]

221. Because it makes some people feel good when you pay them a compliment.

[fishwax]

210. Shagbark Hickory, what's your point here? I think may actually be in agreement ...

I suspect that we are actually in agreement here, and our exchange has been clouded by your irony ("I always thought those were called 'compliments,'" which I took to be a defense of the behavior) and my understatement ("not usually, no," which you perhaps have taken to be a defense of the behavior). :)

[Shagbark Hickory]

214. I'm not ready to make my point. I'm still trying to determine what consititues a

compliment vs an insulting and/or harrassing, cat call.

I mean, If I shout "hey baby" to a woman walking by... that seems like a no-no,
But if I say it quietly to a guy friend or even a girl friend as I enter their office, that would probably be ok.

It would appear that it's not really what you say, it's the volume at which you say it and the forward speed of the person you are saying it to.

[fishwax]

215. okay, good luck with that n/t

[seabeyond]

217. and just how cool are you.... hey baby. gold chains, too? nt

[Quantess]

301. you clearly don't get it...

You say you're a woman? Really?
We obviously have had very different experiences, then, because you seem to be completely clueless about what sexual harrassment on public streets entails. You clearly have no idea.

[seabeyond]

302. after reading this whole thread

that is where i came to, with women that felt it a compliment to have someone yell out.... nice ass.

i look at post 131, and i wonder how a woman can ignore a post like that and see harassment as all the same to the warm feel of a compliment.

i decided that they must not have had any of the ugly... :shrug: of this behavior.

but then thinking about feeling complimented with a .... hey, nice ass.... i still dont see them as complimentary. i really dont. i have had men say nice things about me out in public standing in line or whatever.... but yelling nice ass.... isnt one of them that make me feel all warm. it tends to piss me off.

[JI7]

143. I don't care for such compliments from strangers

[treestar]

72. It is not intended as a compliment

Holy cow!

Do you do similar things when you see a hot guy? Why not?

[RobinA]

89. It's Not That I Need Therapy

Once I worked in the city and they were constructiong a highrise right next to my building. Every day for a freakin' year I had to walk past the site. I would wait until my office mate, a male, went to lunch and then walk next to him. Never a suggestive word with him there, always some lewd invitation when he wasn't. It wasn't that it was traumatizing, it was just annoying and embarrassing to hear some guy inviting you up for a BJ from 25 stories up. I know, why was *I* embarrassed? I don't know, but it was something I could live without. I always wished I had the guts to scream up, "OK buddy, down here, right now!" Of course, a woman can't do that (the screaming), SHE will be the one who looks like a fool. Men tend to get a pass for this rude behavior.

[tblue37]

131. I recall an occasion when I was with a group of children at a local playground. A very pretty,

somewhat tall 12-year-old girl in our group was rejoining us there after having crossed the street to use the bathroom in my apartment. She was followed by three guys in a car who were catcalling her. They started when she was crossing the street at the intersection (my apartment building was on a corner), and then they turned the corner to continue following her halfway down the block until she could reach us, calling out comments about her the whole way. I am severely hearing impaired, so it took a bit for me to realize what was going on, but when I did I hurried over to join her and to chew out the jerks.

By the time I got to her, Nikki was in tears, and it took quite a while for me to calm her down. She was afraid to go anywhere for years after that unless she was with her mother or me!

So maybe you and your 45-year-old legs won't need therapy if you get whistled at, but that little girl took some time to overcome the fear and shame their behavior instilled in her.

Men who catcall women do not make distinctions between unusually pretty preteens and self-confident older women. In fact, my guess is that they are even more insistently aggressive when catcalling pretty preteens and young teens.

There is another problem, too--even for us older women. We can never be sure that the catcalling jerks will stop at catcalls. Sometimes they get pissed when a woman doesn't respond to teir comemnts, or if she responds but they don't like her response. Sometimes they follow us, and sometimes they even try to get physical. Why should we not be able to walk outside our homes without having to worry about such things?

Black men used to feel the same fear when they were walking along the street and a bunch of white guys started verbally harassing them, because just like women today, Black men during the pre-civil rights era could not be sure that verbal harassment would not turn into physical assault at some point.

I might also point out that when men catcall, they are usually in groups, which makes the "object's" fear even more intense.

[seabeyond]

i wish the men that defend this would read this. or even care about this girl. nt

[raccoon]

181. I wonder how the men who defend this would feel if they saw a video of their wife, sister, mother,

etc. being catcalled. Reason I said video is, as someone posted above, this rarely if ever happens if a woman is with a man.

[tblue37]

218. Or their innocent 12-year-old daughter! nt

[NashVegas]

232. I Still Doubt They'd Get It

probably would think it's either something she needs to learn to deal with, or a reason to go bust some heads for doing it to HIS tribe ...

[csziggy]

245. One TV show took recordings of men's catcalls and played them for their wives and mothers

Embarrassed the hell out of the creeps. One of the mothers starting whaling her son over the head with her purse. It was hysterical. The wives were not happy about the situation, either, but none of them were as physical in their reactions.

[Codeine]

254. OMG that's awesome.

:rofl: I love it!

I never say anything to a woman I don't know that I wouldn't be willing to say in front of my mom. A rule that has served me in good stead.

[seabeyond]

255. there ya go. my rule isnt mom, but same concept. it serves well. nt

[jtown1123]

138. Rec.

[Quantess]

135. Have you noticed, though, that even the hottest 45 year olds

don't get nearly as many catcalls and lewd comments as the teenage girls?

Think about it.... it's because grown women are seemingly more deserving of respect. That's what it's about.

[NashVegas]

230. Consider This:

While you, at 45, may be comfortable getting cat-called, someone else may not.

Something like 1 in 4 women (and that may be a lowball figure) are victims to sexual assault of some kind in their childhoods, ranging from simple molestation to rape.

Now at 45, you can deal with the catcalls.

How well do you think one out of every four 17 year olds does with it?

[malaise]

3. Maybe the culture I grew up in is different

but as long as comments are not offensive I had/have no problem with them.
Indeed on two occasions men on the street who called out to me saved me from serious problems.

Decades ago I'd walk about three blocks after my ride left me by a supermarket. There was a Rastaman who would always have something to say to me. One day I stopped and asked him why he couldn't just say good afternoon or hello and ease up on the silly comments. He agreed. About two weeks later a man in a Jaguar stopped and offered me a ride and I said no - he continued harassing me telling me to get in the car - from nowhere the Rastaman arrived and the scumbag took off in his fancy car.

Decades later workmen from the electricity company were on the street and had something to say to me every day. None of it was offensive (and to be truthful if a man doesn't pay a woman a compliment in this culture you're likely to check yuh mirror). On the Thursday of that week a man with a knife approached me at the bus stop and it was the said workmen who grabbed him and called the police.

I don't know if it's objectification - perhaps I don't care but I don't mind a man paying me a compliment - never did - as long as it's not offensive.

[seabeyond]

4. the saddest of the post is that a woman needs a man to let her know she is attractive

like a woman cant figure it out herself. if a man does not let her know, then she must not be. i think that is where i have the biggest problem with us women. we always need the verification and approval and acceptance from men. not ever vice versa. i gotta wonder why.

i was standing in a line at store. man and wife in front of me. the man is trying, oh so hard, to casually look around his wife to "check me out". i am watching him struggle to do this casually, knowing what is going on. the wife is looking out the opposite way, fixated on nothing, so the man can get it done. it was all so fuckin stupid.

that bugs me.

i really dont need a man to confirm my worth

[malaise]

7. I see nothing sad about that

Have you ever watched a male peacock preen for a female?
I have no problem with compliments from men - does that mean I lack self-esteem -no - I'm honest - lots of women want to be desired by men. Perhaps my ultimate belief in the laws of nature influence my worldview.

[cullen7282]

10. I agree with you

I don't think we NEED compliments from men to bolster our self worth as some here seem to think, but a compliment (non-offensive, of course) makes everybody feel good. If there is anyone who says otherwise I'm not inclined to believe them.

[malaise]

213. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[seabeyond]

253. post 131. what we are talking about. how do you reconcile what you say

and what that post gives you.

[seabeyond]

14. you said yourself, if you dont get it, you look in the mirror and say, what is wrong

and i am not talking about compliments. the men/boys, too, need affirmation just as much as woman.

what it seems to me, is women must give their sexuality to men, whereas men express it holding onto their sexuality.

woman... do i turn you on

men..... my dick is hard. i am an animal

[malaise]

28. Sorry sis

We're all animals - male and female

[seabeyond]

30. ya, lol

ok

:shrug:

:hug:

[MineralMan]

41. We are all mammals and primates, for sure.

My wife, who has a penchant for making subtle statements, use to use business cards that said:

Firstname Lastname
Mammal

We were both freelance writers and had no particular titles we could use, so that was her response. It always got people's attention, which was the idea.

[malaise]

195. Just the truth

:hi:

[LanternWaste]

62. I would imagine that since animals...

"We're all animals..."

I would imagine that since animals defecate when and where the urge strikes them, there are indeed some learned behavioral differences which in and of themselves, create relevant and noticeable differences...

[Quantess]

200. Humans are able to override their urges to throw feces at each other.

Sometimes it really takes a lot of restraint, since we're just primates, and all. You can understand if a human sometimes can't resist flinging a handful of dung at someone else...

[Boojatta]

223. "since animals defecate when and where the urge strikes them"

Actually, lots of animals are careful to defecate only in territory that they think they can defend. They don't defecate where it will likely offend a powerful rival.

[GillesDeleuze]

79. out of my love for feminism, ignored.

[seabeyond]

84. out of my love for expression.... wtf? nt

[octothorpe]

86. How dare you have an opinion on things. :P

I think I disagree with some of what you said, but I'm with you with the WTF?.

[seabeyond]

91. i hear ya

about disagreeing with some of the things. the thing, .... i dont do the conditioning, so this female thing must be nature making us... but it isnt me. and i am very much female. so it should be me. everyone is telling me so.

i am trying to get it... being different.

[blondeatlast]

18. The other day, out of the clear blue sky, I was approached and complimented on the pants I

I was wearing. I was just on the sidewalk eating a yogurt. No offense was taken and it gave me quite a lift for the rest of the day.

Wonder if anyone will pick up on the detail I've ommitted from my post... ;)

[seabeyond]

19. if i see something i particularly like

like your experience, a nifty pair of pants. i will say, hey... cool pants, awesome eyes, love your hair, whatever, cause i know it makes a person feel good

but curious

what did you leave out, lol

[guitar man]

43. by a man or woman?

that's the only detail I didn't see. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

44. Does it matter?

(Woman, fwiw)

[guitar man]

47. not really

I was just fishing for the omitted detail...I love a mystery :)

[seabeyond]

48. me, too. and yet, no answer. i anxiously await, lol. nt

[RobinA]

93. You Omitted

the part where the person suggested a casual sex act.

[seabeyond]

97. lol robin

now i am really confused. did i miss a casual act.... am i just all confused. anyway. thanks

[LWolf]

50. The other day, my mother complimented me.

She said, "Oh, you look pretty today."

I'm 50 years old and have been listening to her talk about whether or not I was "pretty" my entire life.

I finally said, "Mom, I wish you wouldn't do that. What are you saying? That other times, I'm NOT 'pretty?' That It matters whether or not I am 'pretty,' that somehow 'prettiness' makes me more valuable?"

I learned some viciously hard lessons as a young girl and a young woman about being valued for my looks rather than my self. While I make sure that I am clean and neat, acceptably groomed, I haven't attempted to attract those sorts of compliments in decades. I've gone out of my way to avoid them.

If someone is going to notice and appreciate something about me, I'd rather be appreciated for my character.

[Evolve_Already]

26. "i think that is where i have the biggest...

problem with women. we always need verification and approval and acceptance from men...."

Not all sisters play this game.

I refuse to blame the women for this behavior.

[seabeyond]

27. of course not all women play the game

must i clarify at all times. and i am not suggesting it is womens fault when a man on the street is being an ass or worse.

too bad we cant talk about something without it regressing to, if there is an issue with women it is blaming the woman for someone elses behavior.

but, that being said

yea for you. for me, it feels so much better, freeing.

[Evolve_Already]

33. we can agree

We do not know each other. We probably will agree more than disagree on such topics. Subtle nuiances prove difficult on some anonymous thread. Thank you for the response.

[LWolf]

46. +1

[treestar]

73. That's a good point

And explains why women don't do that same thing to men.

[dawg]

129. You're forgetting about guys like me.

I'm pretty desperate for verification and approval and acceptance from women right now. So the vice versa *is* true for me.

And I don't mean that in some macho "need to end my dry spell" or "get my groove back" kind of way. I'm just at a point in my life that I find myself questioning my desirability, and I'm probably very similar on the inside to the type of women you refer to.

If women were to start whooping and hollering at me, making crude sexual innuendos, of course I would be thrilled at first. But it would get old really fast. I do realize that.

[seabeyond]

134. if it were women doing it with the intent to embarass or demean you

which is what we are talking about here, then, i dont know how good you feel about yourself, would probably cause the opposite of what you need/want

i did say "and i am not talking about compliments. the men/boys, too, need affirmation just as much as woman." in the next comment. i dont know any of us that dont feel good with a sincere compliment. and men/boys equally need affirmation to their worth.

my 15 yr old son and i were talking about this today driving to school. he is growing up so well, and finally in a place where he feels good about himself pertaining to girls. but he said the same thing as you.

get a group of women though and have them start throwing shit out in a crude and vulgar manner, and my thought is. men too, would be uncomfortable singled out in that manner. you know, show us what you have, ect...

[dawg]

151. Oh, I know the gross stuff would get old really fast.

But I do find myself seeking approval from women lately - fishing for compliments, wondering if the pretty waitress finds me attractive, trying to make more of an impression, etc. Behavior that I typically did not do in the past.

[seabeyond]

162. i learned years ago with little ones.... when i think something nice about someone, say it out loud

give it to them. they feel good. i have never gone wrong with it. now i do it with people i know and love, and complete strangers. it is all good

you had a hit to confidence. i so get you need the affirmation. sending out all my mojo that you bump into that woman this weekend....

teasin

i have no mojo

BUT

i really want you to meet someone worthy of you, and you get on with your life. i really really do.

[dawg]

177. I'll keep you posted.

Right now, all I am wanting is affirmation. Not ready for anything else. It would be great to have a woman start flirting with me, but it would kind of suck if it were one that I really liked, because then I would feel the need to respond or risk losing my chance with her.

Time is limited right now, and there are lots of things that need to be re-arranged. Any extra time I have, I want to spend with my sons. The ladies will have to wait a little longer, I guess.

[On the Road]

9. Now That is an Interesting Pespective

And I think one reason that the BBC folks don't get it is that they come from a different culture and different part of society. Although in England, perhaps it is always offensive.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. 'Cause they're hot? nt

[mdmc]

6. we (men) are all out of intelligent ideas on how to meet women..

[jtown1123]

65. Street harassment never leads to a date so that logic makes no sense. I know you're kidding

[mdmc]

202. yeah.. its a Jerry Seinfeld skit

why do men whistle at women as they walk by? Because we are all out of ideas on how to meet women. This is the best we got..

[RevStPatrick]

8. Why? Because we are monkeys.

It's very primate-like behavior.
If we had evolved from canines, we would be sniffing each others' butts.

[Quantess]

157. That is one of the truest statements on this thread, and men, in particular, need to chew on that

for a while.

That is what you idiotic men are like, when you harrass young women on the street. A throwback to apes.

[seabeyond]

164. difference is... he sees it as an excuse and compliment, lol. you see it

differently. lol.

[Quantess]

176. LOL, you're right, he does probably see it as an excuse.

But really, why would a man want to degrade himself like that? It's possibly more degrading to the men doing the catcalling, than it is to the targeted females.

I have always thought so, even back when I was a teenager, I felt like I was in the presence of uncivilized morons. Guys, that teenage girl thinks you're really gross.

[seabeyond]

191. Guys, that teenage girl thinks you're really gross.

another concept i am not getting. i am well aware at my age, some 16 yr old boy doesnt want me. the illusion men feed themselves, grown men, that think our young gals really want an old coot. now, being old myself, i am not insulting the old coot. they are my age men, and i enjoy them. but when i was oh... 18, 19, 20, 25, ... i didnt want t forty year old adn when they hit on me, was just flat out creepy and gross.

i watch my 70 yr old father flirt with waitress and so damn embarassing.

[Quantess]

201. I completely agree with you. It's creepy.

But sometimes, if he's a really elderly man or woman, it's kind of funny. Senior citizens can get away with these things. ;)

[Codeine]

248. I love ya, seabeyond, but on this we must disagree.

I just proposed (last Sunday morning, actually) to my 23-year-old girlfriend, and I'm 41. She doesn't think I'm creepy, gross, or an old coot now or when I hit on her originally. :woohoo:

[seabeyond]

251. congratulations....

my brother at 48 had a live in that was 18. all kinds of reasons in that.

then there are relationships that are healthy.

then there are more girls that want guys, and the old men flirt. that was more my experience in all the positions of service i had young. and i would smile for both the tip and to not hurt feeling, but saying.... eeeew. three men in a 6 month period wanted to be sugar daddies. (that dates how old i am).

from the heart... i want the best for your new family

[Brickbat]

11. Reminds me of that thread I started a few months ago...the one with the cartoon...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9062677&mesg_id=9062677

[Le Taz Hot]

16. Excellent!

I've been trying to think of an appropriate response for this and the cartoon says it all. As a young woman, I HATED the attention. HATED IT. Too many men don't know that a line even exists, much less where it is. Why do they have to say anything at all? It's rude as hell and since when is shouting something to someone a socially acceptable way to meet anyone anyway? It's not and it shows a lack of respect and class. I've got to say there are a lot of advantages to growing older but that is certainly one of them -- no more unwanted attention by little horndogs.

[lukasahero]

126. Indeed. eom

[Brickbat]

12. The problem, too, is that it so quickly and so often goes beyond "hi gorgeous." If someone says "hi

gorgeous" and I smile and keep walking, more often than not the situation escalates -- a buddy joins in, or the message becomes more pushy: "come over here," or "hey, stop for a second," or "I just want to talk to you!" And then I'm the asshole for not stopping to talk.

[jpgray]

15. Yeah, the "hey what's wrong with a compliment?" crowd are a little ridiculous for this reason

On avoiding and ignoring the "compliment," things can degenerate fairly rapidly into expletive-laden threats and insults. Which, so far as I know, nobody really likes.

[blondeatlast]

23. That's exactly it--as I posted below--the offense is in the eye of the receiver as it should be.

It's like how so-called "political correctness" works--it makes the victim of an offense feel even more on the defensive and uncomfortable.

If someone is offended by something, I don't care why they are offended--it's their life and they are entitled to take offense. I don't mind certain comments, but too often things are designed to get out of hand.

[Arugula Latte]

71. Exactly. There's really no way to respond to this.

You ignore it -- The men continue, thinking it's fine, trying to get a reaction.

You snap back at them -- You're a bitch; you're uptight; you're making a big deal out of nothing.

You smile -- You like it. You're asking for it.

[jtown1123]

74. +1000

[Quantess]

303. Oh I snapped back once, and the idiot threatened the guy I was walking next to.

To be fair, he looked like he just got out of a long prison sentence and was trying to join a gang. Some uncivilized half-wit.

[RobinA]

105. Yep To The Asshole Part

As someone who likes to be alone sometimes and even vacations alone, I've been there. At the beach sitting there watching the surf after dinner. Guy from the next house I have never spoken to before comes up, plops down and starts talking. OK, just being nice. I remain pleasant but keep the answers short, as I want to SIT HERE AND ENJOY THE SURF. Guy invites me to a party he and his vacationing firemen friends are having. I'm noncommittal and say I'm probably going food shopping that evening. He goes away and I sit for awhile longer and then go back to the house. Buddies are on the porch grilling and call me over. I smile and say No Thanks. Next thing I know I'm a cold b*tch who doesn't have time for anyone. So I'm the one with the problem.

[EFerrari]

17. This stuff is especially bad for young girls who are just trying out

making their way in the world. It makes the commons feel unsafe.

[kctim]

20. Isn't there something important

like maybe homelessness or poverty, that these people could work for?

[Patiod]

25. If you think it's trivial, then you haven't dealt with the worst of it

Very unpleasant dealing with the workday in the aftermath of the adrenaline-pump flight-or-fight response that the angrier catcalls generate: "Hey bitch, wanna sit on my face?" "Where you goin? Come on over here and get some of this" and on and on. The cartoon linked above in the thread pretty clearly communicates the level of anger that's carried by some of these catcalls.

I'm guessing you're a guy, or a woman who doesn't have to walk, bike, or run through urban areas. Which is fine, but don't minimize the threat or discomfort dumped on some of us almost every day against our will just because you don't personally experience it.

Funny comments or real compliments on their own are one thing, but the anger behind some of the comments or expressed when a woman doesn't respond to a "compliment" are frightening to those who have to deal with them regularly.

[kctim]

37. Sorry

but trying to change human agony and despair is a lot more possible and makes a lot more sense than trying to change human nature.

IMO, this is yet another waste of resources that could be better spent on something that truly matters.

[seabeyond]

42. just human nature for a guy to yell out... come suck my dick. a guy cant stop himself.

wow

doesnt sound good for guys.

i wonder how many of the men on this board will own that.

[Patiod]

68. Thanks, seabeyond

Good point. I knew I'd get the "get over it, work for World Peace" comment

[seabeyond]

87. always the way. and if not that, jealous, asexual, prude and so many other comments

to shut you up

[fishwax]

59. harrassment has nothing to do with human nature, and I fail to see why this is unworthy of attention

[Bunny]

88. Because "kctim", a male, presumably named Tim, who lives in Kansas City, says it's unworthy.

A man is kind enough to tell us women that we don't need to be concerned about this. What further proof do you need? :shrug:

[kctim]

141. Such powers of deduction there

I didn't say to not be concerned, I said it was a waste of time because you are not going to change the fact that a lot of men are pigs and they are going to act like pigs no matter how many little marches or meetings people have.

[fishwax]

145. but you did suggest it isn't important and that it doesn't truly matter

"I didn't say to not be concerned ..."

[Bunny]

147. "...little marches..."

Not the least bit condescending. No sir, not at all.

[raccoon]

183. Was it a waste of time to bring attention to sexual harassment in the workplace?

Was it a waste of time to bring attention to date/acquaintance rape?

Behaviors CAN be changed, and people CAN be made aware that some behaviors are not tolerated.

[LanternWaste]

67. Cultural mores do and should indeed change over the course...

Cultural mores do and should indeed change over the course of a society's existence. Particular learned behaviors from merely 75 years ago would be considered abhorrent in the here and now. So I would imagine that it is indeed in our best interest to change "human nature" (which it is actually not "natural" but a learned behavior).

However, I do understand that many people believe attempting to minimize the denigration of others, regardless of either the depth or the transparency of that denigration, is a "waste of resources" and "does not matter"

[Quantess]

182. It is cultural, a learned behavior. Not "human nature".

The proof of this is that some cultures do more than their share of harrassing women in public, and men in some cultures are much more restrained and self-respecting. Some cultures have men who don't realize how mutually degrading and embarrassing their behavior is, while men in some cultures have learned that harassing women in the street is unacceptable.

And, thanks for chiming in, and showing off your unexamined, poorly thought out opinion on this.

[Arugula Latte]

272. "trying to change human nature"

Yes, there's no point in civilization. Why not just go back to caveman days?

You have no clue as to how many threatening incidents most women have in their lifetimes. Either that or you don't give a shit.

[seabeyond]

275. as far as we know, caveman day might be more respectful. we assume. but then, we dont know

and they did not have century upon century of building up the patriarchy

[jtown1123]

66. I guess systematically blaming women for men's behavior or not allowing them ownership

of their bodies is just something we can ignore...really? Come on this is DU. I expected more feminists here.

[kctim]

149. Nobody blamed women

and lewd behavior like that is not disallowing ownership of bodies.

My job takes me through the inner-city 2-3 times a week. I am threatened weekly, called cracker, white boy and told I am in the wrong part of town. Creating an organization to counter the FEW racist assholes I run across weekly would be a waste of time.

[treestar]

75. There's some relation

Women and their place in society - here's a symptom. Then look at the statistics on who is poor.

[geardaddy]

102. Says the person with the Quagmire icon

:eyes:

[MineralMan]

21. There's a distinct difference between a compliment and a catcall.

One makes people smile and feel good about themselves. The other just feels wrong and makes them feel bad.

Compliments are not overtly sexual in nature. Catcalls are.

"Hey, Baby! Want some of this?" is a catcall.

"I like the way your hair looks in the sun," is a compliment.

The difference is clear.

[Liberal_in_LA]

150. good point Mineral man. also some 'cat calls' are exactly that... psssssst click click click

Like the sound made to call a cat

[blondeatlast]

22. There's flirty and there's obnoxious--and IMHO, the line is in the eye of the receiver.

Basically, I just consider it rude to be that personal, but if it's flirty (as it has been on occasion for me--and I once had a relationship from a flirty, repeating encounter) I don't get offended.

To be honest, I'm a bit of a fashionista, so I gotta admit I like some attention--what I don't like is "give us a smile" or anything that is overtly sexual or commenting on my demeanor on the street or whistles. "You've got a great smile" is nice, or "I like your hair/dress" isn't bad. I guess what I'm saying is that there's a way to do it with class--and other ways.

I think this movement is probably a good idea, though.

[MineralMan]

24. I remember an airline flight. A flight attendant handed me a cup of

coffee. She was wearing some perfume that I really liked. Thinking I'd buy some for my wife, I said, "I really like the perfume you're wearing. Could you tell me what it is?" She thought I was flirting with her, and kept giving me the nice eye for the rest of the flight. Thank goodness, she told be what the perfume was. It was new that year, "Red." I did buy some for my wife, and she liked it very much. I wasn't flirting, although the comment was also a compliment.

[blondeatlast]

36. Hey--I love "Red" too, even though my ex didn't! My ex did the same, actually--only

with a stripper...

I got a lovely collection of Chanel "CoCo Mademoiselle" out of it (I never begrudged him an occasional night out with the guys, even to strip clubs--he let me go with the girls to dance, too). :rofl:

[MineralMan]

40. Yeah, but "Red" is so 1990, you know.

My wife still uses it, though, and I keep her supplied.

[polmaven]

173. There is a big difference

between giving a compliment during a conversation and yelling something out in the middle of the street.

[MineralMan]

178. Of course there is. Did I even hint that there wasn't?

[polmaven]

185. The OP

is about shouts and cat calls on the street, not a quiet compliment during a pleasant conversation. I may have misunderstood, but after reading some of the remarks here, apparently there are some who do not understand the difference.

[MineralMan]

186. I didn't write the OP, and I wasn't replying to it, either.

If you read my posts in the thread, you'll see that I do know the difference. I was illustrating a situation that was different. An earlier post of mine made the difference quite clear.

I don't believe you're actually talking about me here. But I believe your comment was a bit misplaced. I've never made any sort of crude comment to any woman, and I've publicly called out people who have.

[malaise]

196. Really - suppose the person on the street said

hey lady you have lovely legs - that's a compliment unless you know you have awful legs.

[polmaven]

229. Well,

if you don't see the difference, there is nothing I can say that you will hear, so why bother.

[dawg]

132. I think shouting at a woman like that is rude.

[Evolve_Already]

29. Can doodz just shut the EF up?

Leave the women and girls alone Prince Charming!

Disappear for a while, give them breathing room and safety, if only for a nano second.

[seabeyond]

31. welcome to du

and i am thinkin, you are going to be fun, lol

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[3lyford]

148. angry at men lady is angry

have you really never had a nano second to safely breathe without a man?

[Evolve_Already]

190. damn right I am angry

Why aren't you?

[3lyford]

197. be more specific

First I'll admit you have me at a disadvantage here (assuming your a woman). I'm a dude or doodz as you put it so, its obviously harder for me to know a ladies perspective. Also when you are a dude unfortuanetely women never yell, "asshole come here and give me cunnilingus" as dudes walk down the street. At least not to me. Maybe I should wear tighter jeans or maybe they're afraid to cause they know I would do it. Anyways.

Take the different accounts listed in this thread. Everything from polite and flattering compliments to yelling out, "bitch suck my dick". I think we all know their is a polite and rude way to approach people we meet. While everyone would probably be angered by openly rude and disrespectful behavior. To me it seems you paint with too broad a brush. As if every time a man approaches a woman its bad. For instance, Some stories on here included a guy touching a woman between the legs or a guy groping her breasts. Obviously you can't touch people without their permission, especially in a sexual way. That sounds like sexual assault. I bet just about everyone would agree that should be prosecuted. Again though, it isn't fair to lump all male/female street interactions in this way. It is complicated though because some people are very shy and others are very outgoing. The whole thing could get very interpretive. So probably best to err on the side of caution unless you know how it will be recieved. Well now you know just about all my thoughts on the subject and that I talk to much.

[seabeyond]

199. welcome to du..... nt

[Evolve_Already]

247. I very much would lump doodz together.

After all, they commit the majority of ALL violent crimes on the planet.

When is the last time YOU were apprehensive or downright scared to go out at night?
Are you apprehensive or scared when say 2 or more women are coming toward you down the street at night?

We all know the answer to these questions if answered truthfully by the menz. Men really have no idea how "free" they truly are.

Thank you for your perspective.

[Codeine]

249. I commit at least five violent crimes a day.

Hard to find time between all those catcalls, but I have a remarkable work ethic.

:eyes:

[Evolve_Already]

256. Hah!

I'm still thinking about those piercings.....ouuuuuuch

Can't even pierce my ears, my body attacks any foreign material.

[Codeine]

258. Not uncommon.

My body basically pushed one of my nipple rings almost completely out over the course of several years. I went from deep in the flesh of the areola (yeah, I have no clue how to spell that one, and is it even CALLED that on a dude?) all the way out to the end of the nipple. Took about twenty years to do that, however.

[Quantess]

299. Question. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously

when you type "menz" and "doodz".

[Quantess]

297. Sometimes it's wiser to read instead of posting.

That would be true in this instance, ;)

I'm phrasing that very gently, LOL.

[lostnfound]

39. Whether unpleasant or not, there are environments when it's downright threatening

Best scenario: a street festival atmosphere, the streets are full of walkers and rollerbladers and other people having a good time, music in the air, and there's a little good-natured whistle or light-hearted comment of 'hello gorgeous!' Just part of the party atmosphere, perhaps.

Worst case scenario: the streets are empty, and it's just a woman walking alone, passing 2 or 3 guys who start making catcalls. Absolutely terrifying. ANY attention whatsoever then feels threatening and scary, and is thoughtless and inconsiderate at best.

[Patiod]

80. Sadly, I've been in the first situation when it turned ugly

Walking around the Dad Vail regatta with 3 other girls, all of in our twenties. Dressed for summer, but nothing overtly slutty - no belly shirts or excess cleavage, just tee-shirts and jeans or shorts.

A bunch of guys were making lewd comments about one girl who was busty, and the one guy actually ran up and starting grabbing her breasts.

THAT'S what we're always worried about - that the "compliments" and "fun remarks" can turn into assault in an instant.

[LWolf]

45. While I was never physically threatened,

I grew up walking and taking buses everywhere, usually on my own. I was physically precocious. By the time I was 12, I could pass, physically, for 16. I was intimidated by the frequent cat-calls from strange men.

Probably has something to do with why I've spent most of my adult life dressing inconspicuously, trying to avoid notice.

[jtown1123]

51. WOW. There are a lot of unenlightened folks here. My response:

snip from Jezebel:

It's a huge mistake to blame women's revealing clothing –- or women's bodies — for public sexual harassment. The problem is a tenacious and ugly myth about male sexuality, one that tells us that average men simply can't be expected to restrain their eyes, their words, or even their actions when faced with the reality of a woman's bare skin. Because of that belief in male weakness, we outsource their missing self-control to women. And so this myth pushes women to police each other, slut-shaming or mocking those girls who are showing "too much".

We won't stop the problem of street harassment by asking women to cover up. As long as we cling to the lie that it is women's bodies that are the problem, it doesn't matter whether women wear burqas or bikinis in public –- we'll hold them accountable for what men to say them regardless of how much skin they're showing. There's only one solution, and that's to start believing that all men (not just a few decent ones) have the power to control what they say and how they act.

Most men already know this, of course. Listen to what they say when they're called out on their behavior: "She was asking for it." Very rarely will a man say "I was so turned on by her sexy ass that I couldn't help whistling." Men know –- believe me, they know –- that their arousal isn't carte blanche to do as they please. By saying "she was asking for it", harassers shift responsibility away from themselves while avoiding an even more obvious lie about their own sexuality.

The truth is that street harassment isn't about sex. It's about power. It's about taking pleasure in degrading another human being. Most harassers know damn well that shouting sexual slurs is a lousy seduction strategy. But whether they harass alone or in groups, most men who openly stare, yell, whistle (or worse) aren't interested in getting laid, though they might happily jump at the chance if it were miraculously given. What they want is the thrilling reminder of their own masculine power –- a power they feel more permission to use when the weather is warm and women seem to be wearing fewer clothes.

The rest: http://jezebel.com/#!5783453/spring-is-no-excuse-for-street-harassment

[seabeyond]

57. most men who openly stare, yell, whistle (or worse) aren't interested in getting laid

thrilling reminder of their own masculine power

this is exactly it.

it is like listening to SOME of the men on du, see a wamna they say.... i will hit it. reduce her to an it. let all the pals know they would do it. all about empowering their masculinity. the female matters not

[jtown1123]

60. I think I am going to make a separate post with that OpEd so it gets seen

Power to the DU Ladies! :)

I feel like teaching men, even Democrats, on feminism is still a task we need to take on.

[dawg]

140. I think you're only half right here.

It is true that they aren't thinking about getting laid. That ain't gonna happen anyway, and they are angry and frustrated about that fact.

You miss the point, I think, in calling their behavior a "thrilling reminder of their own masculine power". They don't feel powerful. They feel weak and irrelevant, and so they are lashing out at the pretty girl, trying to bring her down a notch or two. It's a mean-spirited thing done by small men who feel small and unimportant.

We men have had huge historic advantages over women, many of which persist today. But we don't feel all that powerful anymore. (And that's not just me talking. I probably feel more powerful than most.)

[seabeyond]

146. i think it is ultimately to feel empowered, but i agree with all you say in the post

this is why i do not get why men use it on du. they dont get that instead of looking all that, they look like what you describe. pathetic.

that is why so many of the threads on du bother me. i dont want to get into the threads, but inevitably i do. the way women are talked about is exactly about knocking the women, even with so many pretending otherwise. and the pretending pisses me off, lol

"we don't feel all that powerful anymore"

why?

[dawg]

160. Why we don't feel powerful?

I learned a long time ago that happiness depends more on direction than place. The person who had $100 last year and has $200 this year is happier than the one who has 8 million this year but had 10 million last year.

Men's relative power in society has been slipping for decades, and despite the advantages they still enjoy, the direction makes them feel like they are losing. When you add in the economic slide that we are all feeling, that just makes it worse.

There are also a few things that I think are hardwired into many men. The job hierarchy, where we have bosses who control us like we are children, even if they are younger and not as smart, can be a very emasculating thing. That adds to the pressure.

Just society in general - for both men and women - it sometimes seems like you just can't win. Some men are small-minded and want to lash out - try to bring a pretty woman down to their level. Put her in her place. Very wrong thinking, but that is what I believe it is.

[seabeyond]

165. then

like i really believe our young girls have got to get beyond their looks being there worth, men have got to get beyond their pay being their worth?

havent we been in it long enough to know, it just is not worth it. hot young women marrying old rich men. all the woman is worth is her looks. all the man is worth is the $

are people really looking to live that life and feeling deprived? because there is so much more in life that can make us happy, if we can get beyond the perception of what society tells us our worth is.

i am stewing on what you say. thinking....

thank you

i always like to think

[Quantess]

187. Yes, you bring up good points.

I think that goes a long way to explain the men from minority cultures harrassing white women.

[CrispyQ]

211. I've been on DU since 2004 & have only put three people on ignore in that time.

In this thread I added two more.

Go post jtown.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Three comments about street harassment

1. In my experience, the obnoxious sort of catcall ALWAYS comes from men or boys in groups. It has nothing to do with the woman. It's a way of showing the guys how "cool" they are. Getting a reaction of any sort meaning that the guy who has given the catcall "wins."

When a bunch of boys of middle school age walk around, stopping in front of random women, opening a porno magazine to a photo of a woman going down on a man, and saying, "This is what I want, bitch," that is not a compliment.

2. Another form of harassment that bugs me is when I'm walking down the street minding my own business and some guy I've never seen in my life says, "Give me a smile, honey" or something similarly inane.

My face is not intended as decoration for his world. And how does he know why I'm not smiling? Some of you may know that my mother died about a month ago. If some guy had said, "Give me a smile, honey," in the days after my mother died, I might have decked him.

3. Clever, apropos comments are another matter. One day in mid February, many years ago, I had just broken up with my boyfriend and was living in a large apartment. I came down to the mailroom to check my mail just as the mailman was leaving. "Looking for Valentines?" he asked light-heartedly.

"I'm not expecting any Valentines," I sighed.

"Then there's no justice in the world," he said.

That remark was somehow a day brightener.

[jtown1123]

69. Asking for a smile is the worst. Great comment.

[WatsonT]

53. For the most part they don't

[seabeyond]

58. thank you man, for setting us women straight. all those illusionary experience we have

really didnt happen

[WatsonT]

61. I imagine that if someone

where to post an article asking "why do women lie about being on birth control to trap men in to a relationship via unplanned pregnancy" you and others would take issue with the wording.

Not because it never happens (I'm sure there are individuals who have been through that) but because the article implies all or most women do it.

Likewise I take issue with this because it doesn't specify "some" men.

Some men do this.

Most do not.

Consider all the males you come within shouting distance of every day. Do 50%+1 of them yell these things at you? I find that unlikely.

[jtown1123]

70. So it's OK to ignore the culture that allows "some" men to think this is OK?

[WatsonT]

81. Interesting straw man

I took issue with the implication that all/most men did this.

From that you concluded that I tolerate those who do.

[jtown1123]

125. Are you really trying to argue your offense to "all men" clearly, we know not all men do this

Why derail this conversation on such a minute detail?

[Bunny]

153. Oh, trust me. I've been around here for a long time, and EVERY SINGLE TIME this discussion

comes up, there's at least one man who shows up and pouts and stamps his feet and DEMANDS that we acknowledge that all men are not guilty. And even when you do, he still refuses to concede the point and actually talk about the issue. It's all about making the women exonerate him above all else.

It's like demanding that anyone in a discussion about race issues must first be sure to stroke the egos of all the white folks present before they can be allowed to make their point. It's extraordinarily self-centered, but that's how privilege tends to be.

[WatsonT]

156. "It's like demanding that anyone in a discussion about race issues"

So you'd be ok with broad-brush accusations against people of a certain race?

[Bunny]

158. Hahahahaha!

[jtown1123]

170. You are so right. They won't acknowledge privilege either.

[WatsonT]

155. Broad-brush stereotyping is not a minor detail

a threat that started out with "why do black people/muslims/women/hispanics/homosexuals/etc . . . " would not go so well.

[seabeyond]

77. my immediate response would be, .... yes, lets talk about this issue.

if it isn't damn obvious not all, or most women lie about being on birth control to trap a man, then damn.... some stupid people.

ya know

it is pretty obvious thru out the thread, that those of us with issue, KNOW all men dont do it, hence our arguing that it is not biological.... (as some people are doing up thread cause we are all animals), so where is the need to make sure we say SOME men, but really, too many men.

you post saying,... not happening. there are so many ways, thru out a lifetime, women experience this. so many ways, you are clueless.

12 yrs old standing in lunch line a boy behind stick hand between legs ad finger up my vagina...

so, when i do bow down to your knowledge of all it is to be a woman, that is just a small percentage of experience that you know nothing about.

[WatsonT]

85. First off would you mind

cleaning up your grammar/spelling? That is difficult to interpret.

Second: you know damn well that if this were any other group this passive stereotyping would not be given a pass.

Say "some" men when you mean some, rather than all or even most.

And I never said this didn't occur. I'm not sure how you got that impression as my comments have been very clear and easily understood (ahem).

[seabeyond]

94. for the most part.. they dont. wrong. nt

[WatsonT]

152. So you believe 51% of men do this?

Wow.

[seabeyond]

166. thru out the sibthread, you were pulling away from your original statement i addressed

i brought your original statement. since you were denyng the very thing you originally posted

[WatsonT]

174. Not at all

I said "For the most part they don't".

Meaning most men don't do this.

You disagreed, meaning you feel that most men do this.

"Most" means a majority.

[Quantess]

203. Dear Watson, I believe you when you say that you would never do this.

Does that make you feel better? Now, please get over yourself. You're being an ass. It's comparable a straight person jumping into a thread about gays being called slurs, and insisting "not all straight peole do that!" Yes, we know.

[WatsonT]

231. How hard would it have been

for the title to read "Some men".

That would have been both accurate and less blatantly offensive.

Unless you believe the best way to get men to treat women better is to stereotype and insult them.

"It's comparable a straight person jumping into a thread about gays being called slurs, and insisting "not all straight peole do that"


No, it's comparable to jumping in to said thread where the implication was that all straight people abuse homosexuals. Quite different from what you set up.

[Quantess]

300. Oh, heavens to betsy. Watson is "offended" by the title.

:spray: :rofl:

[Patiod]

95. Not equivalent

I can't do a thing if some woman lies about birth control except to suggest you always keep it wrapped, and then you wouldn't have to worry about it.

But if a guy is in a group with an asshole who yells something to a passing woman, fellow males can do something about it. A "sorry our friend is an asshole" goes a long way toward making the situation better.

I've actually had that happen at a Phillies game - someone got drunk and out of hand, and his friends told him to apologize. So he apologized, but to my big, weightlifter SO . What was funny is that his friends made him come back and apologize to ME, who was the one to whom the offensive behavior had been directed. (I don't even want to go into the sociological implications of this lout thinking he should apologize to my SO, but I give credit to this cretin's friends for picking up on it and correcting it).

So we're not implying all men are louts. We're just asking you to please police each other, rather than encouraging each other in this behavior.


(oh, and fix your own spelling and grammar before correcting others, Watson: "I imagine if someone where to post an article" - really? "where to post"?)

[seabeyond]

98. i have had that, too. where men in the group takes on the guys that are asses.

that always feels good. and that is what will do something about behavior because the men do it for buddies.... nothing to do with the women.

[WatsonT]

154. Wait there a second

So guys can tell each other not to be assholes. But women are somehow prevented from telling other women not to be assholes?

"We're just asking you to please police each other, rather than encouraging each other in this behavior"

Right, so we're all encouraging one another in this.

What is my responsibility, as a male, to regulate the behavior of people I don't know? Is any given woman responsible for the actions of all women?

"(oh, and fix your own spelling and grammar before correcting others, Watson: "I imagine if someone where to post an article" - really? "where to post"?) "

Big difference between the occasional typo (never claimed to be free of 'em) and constant strings of almost nonsensical letters. I wasn't being a grammar nazi or using that to 'win' an argument. I was honestly having a hard time understanding what she was trying to say. Whereas you clearly understood my meaning.

[seabeyond]

168. yes... i address women when presented with an issue. often. especially

my nieces. and women friends.

[WatsonT]

172. So people you know personally

not random folks on the street.

[seabeyond]

175. yes. a woman in grocery store.

i was with y 15 yr old son and talking about product and what to cook and what to look for on a shelf. she laughed and said something about males inability to get product and cook for themselves. i stopped talking to son and turned to her and told her, hubby cooks better than i and i dont see feeding oneself as a gender issue. i did that as much for my son as anything else. i wanted him to know that though women too could be asses, it behooves us to speak up and out. we walk thru the grocery store talking about this situation.

i could go on and on the number of times i have addressed both women and girls with various issues.

[WatsonT]

180. Yeah why is it that all women do that?

Assume that men can't cook?

I assume you must be writing letters nonstop to various cleaning products, food companies, etc that all assume men to be mentally deficient in their ads.

[Arugula Latte]

56. I've had my share of traumatic street harassments. They can be very threatening.

I always had the feeling that it was a way for the harassers to wield their power over women.

[jtown1123]

63. You are exactly right

I think you will find this article interesting: http://jezebel.com/#!5783453/spring-is-no-excuse-for-street-harassment

[Arugula Latte]

76. Thanks. Good article. nt

[octothorpe]

83. That actually happens a lot?

I always thought that was just an exaggeration in movies. I've never actually seen (noticed) it myself.

[gkhouston]

122. Yeah, it happens a lot, and it's lousy. n/t

[Brickbat]

169. It does. Depending on the study, between 50 and 100 percent of women surveyed have reported street

harassment.

[Quantess]

184. To teenage girls and women in their 20s, every day.

I got it EVERY TIME I STEPPED OUT OF MY APARTMENT in San Francisco, when I was in my 20s and early 30s.
Some cultures are a lot more harrassing than others, I will stop right there, before I get called a racist. It's bad enough in typical American whitebread culture, don't get me wrong. There are a lot of white American men who ought to be ashamed of themselves.

And it is far, far worse for teenage girls.

[seabeyond]

192. no

we are not allowed to talk about specific cultures but that is a reality. and in those cultures, women have their won taxi cab service to avoid all the harrassment in their own country.

[Dash87]

291. Machismo cultures are really creepy in this regard.

[Cleita]

90. I miss it. Most of the whistlers and cat-callers were very cute as well.

When the workers stopped noticing me is when I realized I was getting over the hill.

[ensho]

101. its a power thing - making women 'things'

nt

[seabeyond]

104. i can hit it. on du often enough. an "it". men saying it to be cool. are the ones not

hitting anything.

they even have a cute little picture to go with it.

[Dash87]

292. That always ticked me off, seabeyond.

"It" is not the appropriate description for a living, breathing human being. :(

[Scout]

108. they are delusional....

they think that women actually give a shit what some stranger thinks about them.

i could not care less what someone i don't know thinks about how i'm dressed or how i look. and i don't care if they think they are paying me a compliment or not :shrug:

[Dash87]

293. I think it's more of a power thing.

They love intimidating women, especially beautiful women, because they have power and control issues.

[fishwax]

111. I'm a guy, but I've actually had this happen to me, and perhaps

people who don't think this is really a big deal can learn from my experience.

In my younger days I had rather long hair, and so now and then people would inadvertently mistake me for female from behind. Occasionally, while out walking, I'd get people hollering at me from passing vehicles or even just slowing down to check me out. I almost always had facial hair, either a full beard or a pretty bushy goatee, so as soon as these vehicles could see my face they could instantly recognize their mistake.

Sometimes they would simply drive off. Sometimes they would look sheepish or mumble "sorry, dude" or something similar. Sometimes, though, they would get visibly upset--angry, even. Yelling at me to cut my hair wasn't unusual, and on more than one occasion they responded by shouting homophobic slurs at me. That could be disconcerting.

On one occasion in particular I was walking with my wife out of a movie theater to our car, which was parked a block or two away. We were holding hands, and so I guess from behind we looked like two women holding hands, and we heard a very aggressive catcall from behind. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it made us both stop up short. As I looked to my left, a truck was passing with three people in the cab, one of them leaning head and shoulders out the window to leer. And when he saw that I was a guy he looked disgusted and angry. He screamed "cut your fucking hair! dude, you look like a fucking girl!" as he pounded on the side of the truck with his fists. Then, when the driver put on his brakes and the truck stopped, I thought I had a very serious situation on my hands--but only for a second, because either the driver or the other passenger tugged on the guy's shirt and he brought his head back into the cab and the driver sped off.

My wife and I looked at each other and laughed, and it was a funny story that we told our friends, of course. But while it made for a funny story, there was also a moment of very genuine concern and fear for my wife's safety (as well as my own) when a truck full of guys, with one of them pounding his fists on the truck and yelling obscenities at me, stopped in front of us.

The thing is, when you holler at some lady on the street, she doesn't know you from that guy in the truck. She doesn't know if ignoring you will make you go away sheepishly or if it will make you angry. So even when it's a guy who, theoretically, yells out a compliment with only the very best of intentions, she has good reason to feel uncomfortable--threatened even. It's not cool.

[seabeyond]

112. you have told this story before fishwax. it is so good hearing it from you

thank you

[fishwax]

113. I should also add that

the potential for intimidation is only one reason that such behavior is problematic, but an important one.

Thanks for the kind words, seabeyond. :hi:

[dawg]

130. They found you attractive and then felt *gay* when they realized you were a guy.

That is so evil. But, be honest, I'll bet you have a really nice butt for a dude. Am I right?

[seabeyond]

137. shhhh,

i was thinkin must be the nice butt, too. lol.

[fishwax]

139. yeah, I think that was definitely part of their reaction

"But, be honest, I'll bet you have a really nice butt for a dude. Am I right?"

Well, I'd like to think so, and I've gotten compliments from guys who knew I was a guy too. :rofl:

But the truth is, I think that kind of behavior is often more about power and control than attraction, and I could never be mistaken for an attractive woman ;)

[CrispyQ]

274. Thank you for sharing.

Your last paragraph is key.

[defendandprotect]

127. .. because the male-supremacist culture has long taught them that they can....

[BlueIris]

144. I will always believe street harassment is about entitlement mentality, desire to abuse power,

and a juvenile need for self validation. It is also reflective of poor boundaries. People with good boundaries should understand that it's never appropriate to proposition a complete stranger.

[raccoon]

189. Great post. nt

[Liquorice]

227. I agree. nt

[aikoaiko]

161. The issues are a bit mixed up: the expression of exhuberant lustful feelings is not the same as..

...shouting vulgarities...

...stalking...

...threats of violence...

...physical violence...

...and if it didn't often lead to those other things, the expression of lust of interest wouldn't be a problem. All too often they are precursors.

[Book Lover]

188. Fantastic! Yet another feminist issue brought up at DU, where it will

be chewed over and never resolved. Dontcha just love it when men tell us the things we call problems aren't really problems?

[seabeyond]

193. or it is all about the men wanting to do it so really doesnt matter how a girl/woman

feels about it or how it mkes them feel.

[LiberalLoner]

239. That is it EXACTLY. We women are "things" and not humans. n/t

[Patiod]

198. Or that we should ignore our distress and focus on World Peace

or Hunger in India or whatever. Nice. I can imagine how it would go over if I interrupted a thread in LGBT and told them to "get over" homophobia and focus on something more important, or told people complaining about racism or antisemitism to "toughen up" and focus on something more important.

Yo! Muslim-Americans! Stop worrying about protesters shouting at you, and go work on World Hunger!

[LiberalLoner]

235. If I had a dime for every male who said of my experience being raped as a child,

"Oh get over it, it's not such a big deal, you probably liked it anyway" I'd be rich. Of course not all males are like this, many males have been very supportive and abhor rape, but the men who seem to feel rape is no big deal and we women should just stop complaining about it, stand out very much in my mind and feed the deep hatred I feel in the pit of my soul. The kind of hatred that makes you fantasize about committing really really big acts of violence. A dangerous hatred.

[dawg]

236. I don't understand anyone who could say that to you.

That's horrible.

:hug:

[LiberalLoner]

238. Sexual abuse of children is epidemic. I just kind of assumed that the

men who made those comments to me (they were primarily my fellow Army officers, interestingly enough) were perpetrators of that kind of abuse themselves, or perpetrators of rape of adult women. They say one in three female children are molested by the time they reach the age of 18. It's not just one man doing all the raping after all. For one in three girls to be raped before turning 18, there would have to be a fair number of men doing the raping, not just one or two men. But of course we can't talk about that in polite society. In fact I expect my post to be censored and deleted for me telling the truth about my experiences and about the fact that 1 in 3 females are molested before they turn 18.

It's okay to rape children in our society, but it's not okay in our society to speak about it or protest about it or try to stop it. At least that's the way I see it. And that's the way a lot of advocates for children see it too, that I have talked with. Our society is a little bit sick in so very many ways I think.

[dawg]

240. You are right to speak out.

It's easier for people to go about their lives and pretend that this doesn't exist, or that it's really rare. That's their psychological mechanism to absolve themselves from doing nothing to help. They need to be reminded.

FWIW, I couldn't even begin to imagine how you must feel, but I hope things get easier for you someday.

[LiberalLoner]

242. Thank you so much. I'm 49 now and hopefully closer to death, and it is at that moment that

I will feel peace and things will get easier for me. :)

[Le Taz Hot]

252. I had a (now former) "friend"

say that to me recently when I shared a traumatic event that was perpetrated on me as a child. I was told, "It was 40 years ago! Get the fuck over it!" How do people not understand that some things you can never "get over it." You can function and go on about your life and "play the game" (appear like everything is hunky dory) but you can't avoid the fact that it will always affect you. No one should EVER say that to a wounded person. EVER. I'm sorry for your experience and the subsequent complete assholes who will never get a clue.

[LiberalLoner]

260. Thank you. I am horrified that "friend" would say that to you and I am glad you shut that

person out of your life! That person has no clue and no empathy. A person who has no empathy is, to me, not fully human and worthless as a friend or lover or mate for life or what-have-you.

You are right that we can choose to look okay on the outside but once you have learned hard lessons in life - you never unlearn them. Once you have been burned, you never forget the feeling and you are always hypervigilant to prevent the next burn.

[seabeyond]

261. it is odd. i cant make judgments on the behavior. but i get what you gals are saying

i said nothing about a couple of my experiences for a couple decades. to anyone. but a couple years ago, trying to get a handle on this, and the whole issue of male/female and what i see today, i finally said something to the men in my life, that i KNOW love me and would protect me from any and all things. it was a huge step me saying it outloud. and still

i was definately underwhelmed by the response. these are men, my husband and two brothers, that are so good. and love me so much.

there is something in it i would be curious about, that a male does not seem equipped to be able to handle these revelations well. adn certainly not to our satisfaction

so though the many experiences are with me, i only said it once and wont say it again. wont be a part of the conversations of why.... i feel like i do.

[LiberalLoner]

265. I've read a lot of literature about child sexual abuse, and there is one

story that stands out in my mind. It was about a judge who decided to rule in favor of a father who had sexually molested his daughter repeatedly and been convicted of it (only got parole for it, don't know why.) The judge said he ruled that the father could have unsupervised visits with his daughter because "it was clear the father loved the daughter, and anyway, every guy has those feelings, I get aroused when my daughter comes down the stairs and I can see up her short dress...it's normal."

That one story stuck in my mind because I thought - well, maybe that IS how it is. Maybe men are just biologically wired to want to have sex with any female, whether the female is a relative, or is only 3 years old, or whatever. Or maybe our society trains men to be that way. I don't know. All I know is, 1 in 3 female children are molested before the age of 18, so there are alot of men out there doing the molesting. And maybe there are also men who HAVE those feelings but don't act on them. Maybe it's kind of normal for men to be that way, and maybe that is why so many men react with a lack of empathy or a subdued response at best. I'm not trying to put down men here - please understand that I have been trying all my life to understand why I was molested and why so many men appear to condone this behavior or find it to be not harmful to the victims. That one story provided something of an explanation for me, and so it stands out in my mind. I don't know if the conclusions I reached based on that story are correct, but I'm offering my thoughts as part of this discussion in order to help other survivors who like me are also searching for answers to the question of "why?" I do acknowledge that I have also met men, many of them here on DU, who have been extremely supportive and empathetic and have worked to try to stop child abuse.

[dawg]

271. A few comments on that story and your takeaway from it.

Regardless of how men might be wired, that judge's ruling was highly inappropriate. If I could, I would disbar him over this.

As I get older, I become less and less certain of what "normal" is. I have never felt a sexual attraction to a prepubescent girl, and I don't think that is normal, but it could be much more common than I believe. After all, I only have access to my own thoughts and feelings. I don't have a daughter, so I really can't say what it would be like once she got to her late teens. I can't imagine feeling attracted to her, but I haven't lived that, so all I can do is speculate. I do think it would make me uncomfortable for a late-teen daughter to walk around the house nearly nude. But I imagine it would be more along the lines of not wanting to see my friends naked. I'm not gay, and I know I'm not attracted to them, but .... I just don't want to see it, ok? Of course, I'm relying on pure imagination here - it might not make me uncomfortable at all, just my little girl.

I do know this. I would love and protect my daughter (or stepdaughter). If I had a stepdaughter, and some judge ruled her abusive father could have unsupervised visits with her, those visits would not take place until I was behind bars and could not stop them. Even then, I have money, and things can be done, even from behind bars.

All men are not wired to want to have sex with any female, regardless of who she is. Once a girl has the appearance and body of a grown woman, regardless of her age, men are likely to find her physically attractive. Nothing magical happens to a woman's body on her 18th birthday. But in all honesty, even the women in their early 20's begin to look like little girls to me now that I'm moving into middle-age. I might would date a 24 year-old, but only for the purpose of pissing off my middle-aged ex who cheated on me and broke my heart.

I can tell that you are so hurt, and I know nothing I can say could possibly make it better. Also, I am likely to say something stupid and insensitive just out of my pure ignorance. I probably have already done so, but not intentionally.

It's as if you have learned a horrible lesson about the world that others don't understand. But, if you will please forgive me for saying this, I can't help but wonder if there isn't another lesson for you to hopefully someday learn? Just as people like me (sheltered, lucky ones) are ignorant and blind to some of the horrible, ugly aspects of this world, I wonder if you aren't at least a little blind to some of the better angels of human nature.

Faith is a big part of my life. Not necessarily the stuff the organized religions teach, but more of a simplistic belief that this world is not all of existence, and that the evils of this world are just brief shadows, but the good that is in the hearts of loving people is eternal. I hope I'm right about that. I hope there is a God, and that someday he will take all of this burden away from you, and from the millions of others who also carry it.

[LiberalLoner]

277. Thank you so much for this post It warmed my heart. Especially when you

said you would do anything to protect a child in your care. That's how I've always believed it ought to be like. I just...I don't understand WHY the things happened to me the way they did. I don't understand it and I've been trying all my life to understand why.

[dawg]

273. male response

I'm not surprised the male response was underwhelming, but I'm glad you were smart enough to realize your husband and brothers love you and would protect you.

I'm not sure how I would respond to that type of revelation myself. And, to be honest, I kind of fear this is something I might find out about someday.

I hope this isn't a rules violation, but my first reaction would be to want to kill someone. If they were already dead, I'd still feel that rage, but it would be unfocused and it would confuse me. I'd be terrified of saying something insensitive or *wrong* - so whatever I did say would be not my best communication.

But whatever it is that the woman I loved wanted to hear from me, I guarantee I would be feeling exactly *that* on the inside, even if I were too afraid or confused or angry to put it into words.

OTOH, nothing I could say or do would be able to take that pain and hurt away. So even if a man were to say the exact perfect thing that could be said, his woman still might find it underwhelming.

It's a shame, sometimes, that women have to settle for the things we men say. I believe you would like the things we *feel* much, much better.

[seabeyond]

281. wow

and i really mean

wow.

i think you hit right on it, dude. this is a very good post. for me. lol

really, when i got the responses, or lack of, i really preceived that it is what you are suggesting. and i was ok with that. but i wonder if they just let it go, as my men are capable of, so good at. or if they, too, keep it in mind, so when life comes along effected by the revelation, it is at least thought by the men. so maybe, though they dont express, they have an understanding why i talk as i do. where experience comes into it.

thank you dawg

[lynne]

220. A man blew a kiss at me on the street last week. In FRONT of my husband -

- who had turned his head at the time. Quite frankly, it made my day.

I'm a few years older and a bit overweight and it did me good to think that someone noticed long enough to chance a blown kiss in public. It was harmless and it lifted my spirits. It also provided my husband with a lot of joke material!

Be offended or upset if you wish but please send the shouters and kiss-blowers my way!

[Kennah]

224. Reminds me of an old joke

Bob and Fred are sitting around discussing their pick up lines.

Bob: I use this line. 'My name's Bob. Would you like to fuck?'

Fred: Gee, you must get a lot of slaps.

Bob: Yes, but I also get a lot of fucks.

*****************************************

Something in the psyche of men wants to believe this works.

[seabeyond]

225. +1. now

to your other thread.

[blondeatlast]

263. Consider the beer commercial as the source of the ridiculous notion

that all women desire arrogant grunts with poor grooming and social habits--then read through this thread again for the guys who can't discern the not-at-all subtle difference between innocent flirtation, a delicately (and bashfully) offered genuine compliment--and the ball-scratching howl of an undesirable male.

Apparently the hardest thing for these macho types to do is to offer the first two options--so they choose the third. :puke:

[seabeyond]

264. and it has got to be said

the women that feel a glow at an older age being complimented validating behavior, yet shunning the info of a 12 yr old girl being harrassed to tears. BIG difference between two experience.

and women thinking only of personal experience along side those men.

[haele]

226. Most of the time, those very same guys would be furious if it happened to one of their own-

I've observed it's when you're around a group of men that this sort of thing happens, so I will admit I tend to ignore the stereotypical "bored construction guys' situation because 9 times out of 10, they're just measuring their dingle-lings in public. However, it's when a lone guy or a small group starts following and continuing to make comments, that starts getting bad really quick.

Group-thinking and actions tend to regresses to the lowest common denominator - and if that happens to be a bully or a pervert, it takes a stronger person than most to take control and keep things from going too far.

Be they groups of men, women or mixed.

Haele

[joshcryer]

250. Young black woman came up to me crying a little while ago...

...said she really need a ride bad, didn't have money for a bus, and that a guy at the store told her "If you get in my car Imma fuck you."

I told her that she was sexually harassed and could've filed charges, the guy drove by a minute later honking his horn and laughing.

I consoled her for a few minutes and felt bad that I couldn't give her a ride (had another obligation to attend to).

She started walking down the street in the bicycle lane, and I told her she probably would want to walk on the sidewalk. She understood what was meant.

I cried for her inside. :cry:

[undeterred]

259. This is why I carry PB blaster.

I consider men yelling at me to be caustic. A spray of PB blaster is also caustic.

[Butch350]

267. Cause it's hard to hear with the traffice noise??

[seabeyond]

269. Just suck my dick already, bitch,”

Just suck my dick already, bitch,” the text on her white smartphone reads. Charlie is nonplussed and annoyed about it as she shows it to me. She’s a gorgeous girl, with a wicked sense of humour and she’s smart as heck.

I gasp in horror. “Who is that?” I ask her.

“I’ve been calling him Suck-My-Dick Guy,” she starts, nonchalantly, “He’s been asking me since the beginning of school to suck his dick but I don’t want to do just that. Why should he have all the fun? If he wants something he can fuck me.”

My eyes widen. This girl is 19, totally legal to do whatever she wants, but all the breath is gone from my lungs. When I was a teenager, and even in college, no boys talked to girls like that. Not ever. A guy like that would make a name for himself right quick and the other guys would shun him.

Now it’s the norm, according to Charlie. She tells me that SMD Guy will not fuck her. He’s made that abundantly clear on his text messages. He has even said she is only worthy of her mouth on him, that’s it. He has said that he does not care what she wants. He is vile, mean, and abhorrently rude beyond anything I’ve ever seen. In short, the guy’s a total pig.

http://www.karensugarpants.com/2010/11/college-life-has-a-seedy-underbelly

i read this article a while ago, but i think on it, off and on.

[blondeatlast]

287. Great article. I wish she'd gone to the seminar and asked why

none for men.

[seabeyond]

288. i get where the disrespect comes from guys/men.

i have a much tougher time understanding why the gals/women do not see the disrespect given to them, and how they accept it.

i cannot be around anyone that shows any signs of disrespect. it has served me well. has hurt me too, in ways, with certain people. oh well. but never, do i allow it.

i really do. not. get. it.

[JonLP24]

270. Never understood it myself

When I was kid walking with my mom down the street, I experienced this directed to my mom on occasion. Made me uncomfortable, imagine much worse for my mom. Also my mom always said when I was growing up, "What do these men expect? For the women to start running after their rear bumper saying "Please stop!""

I just can't imagine those "cat calls" ever working. Not to mention I think it makes many women feel uncomfortable.

[LiberalLoner]

282. All I can think is, they want to make women feel scared and threatened. Guess it makes them feel

more powerful or is a release of anger for them?