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Kindness, Generosity, and Bombing Libya

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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-11 11:10 PM
Original message
Kindness, Generosity, and Bombing Libya
Wouldn't it be kind and generous of us to send the US or NATO or a UN-approved military into Libya to bloodlessly prevent the vicious slaughter of masses of people by a truly evil lunatic?

Would it?

In a study called "Why Civil Resistance Works," Maria Stephan and Erica Chenoweth examined major uses of violence and nonviolence against tyrannical governments around the world between 1900 and 2006. They found that violence succeeded 26 percent of the time. I think they were taking a short view, because the blowback from violence is often delayed. But they found that nonviolence succeeded 53 percent of the time, over twice as often.

They also found that when the regime being challenged uses violence, a nonviolent resistance campaign gains in its likelihood of succeeding, whereas a violent campaign becomes more likely to fail.

Let me repeat that: when someone like Ghadafi uses violence, a violent campaign against him is set back whereas a nonviolent campaign against him would become more likely to prevail, much more likely to prevail on average than a violent campaign.

Nonviolent campaigns are also far more likely to win defections from the state military, and those that do win such defections are extremely likely to succeed -- a fact that gives great significance to Libyan pilots' and soldiers' refusals to obey orders, and to news reports of whole units already defecting.

The idea of using nonviolence is not dreamy speculation. Its record over the past century is one of greater success than violence has achieved. Libya can look to either side, toward Tunisia or toward Egypt, to see nonviolent action's most recent accomplishments.

In contrast, if you think "humanitarian war" helped Bosnia, check out George Kenney's view of that claim.

Nonviolence works because it gives the resistance legitimacy and respect within a nation and abroad, and because it can make state violence backfire. Ghadafi's military is not, in any reports I've seen, slaughtering civilians. It is targeting rebel troops, something it could not do if there were no rebel troops. It could target nonviolent resisters, but not without more defections from within its ranks. A Ghadafi soldier held prisoner by rebel forces has told PBS that he was falsely informed that he would be fighting foreigners or serving on guard duty, when he was sent to battle Libyans. These troops are being lied to. But no lies can easily persuade soldiers that attacking their unarmed countrymen and women is just.

Ghadafi is focused on the media because he recognizes its power. He's parading prisoners and announcing progress. Imprisoning and abusing nonviolent resisters would be very bad media, and Ghadafi would know this.

All right, you say, but the Libyans have chosen violence, they're in the heat of the struggle, there's no time to train them in another way, and they're asking for a no-fly zone.

None of that is exactly right. A minority of Libyans has made those choices. Other options are available. Americans and others offered nonviolent activism training to Egyptians. Egyptians and Tunisians can provide it to Libyans. Humanitarian aid can be provided without military involvement. And the majority of Libyans would almost certainly resent the involvement of US and European militaries. A no-fly zone is not enforced without death and destruction. Limited involvement, even the limited involvement of funneling weapons through Saudi Arabia, usually leads to greater involvement and needs to be nipped in the bud.

According to Reuters, al Qaeda wants U.S. military involvement in Libya even more than John Kerry or John McCain does. Meanwhile Senator Richard Lugar warns against a Somalia-like disaster and wisely advises staying out.

Usually the US military covers up for disastrous occupations, as in Iraq, by pretending to have innocently stumbled into a civil war. Jumping into a civil war, no matter how clearly one side is more to blame, would be disastrous. The rebel side in this war is refusing to work with Human Rights Watch to investigate crimes against its own leaders. That is the level of Libyan antipathy toward foreign interference. British troops have been captured and expelled by the forces they were there to "help." The reputation of U.S. and Western forces is worse than worthless, and deservedly so. Washington wants its hands on power. So do the leaders of anti-Ghadafi violence. But what will they replace him with following a successful violent revolution? They will have no groundwork for representative government. A new tyranny will be a likely outcome, as will further violence down the road.

Ghadafi is in a corner. If he is hit by greater military force, he will hit back with what he has. He may hit oil and gas facilities at incredible cost to human life and the environment. If he is hit by outside forces, public sympathy will shift in his direction. If he is hit by outside forces lacking UN authorization (and Russia is opposed) he will claim to be, and will be, the victim of an international crime. These are not winning strategies.

Ghadafi must be pushed into a corner, yes, but not with loyal troops ready to defend him. Those forces must be led to defect, to join their brothers and sisters in opposition to dictatorship. That can happen quickly, or it may take time, but it can only be done using a tool that is stronger than violence, a tool we must resort to when the going really gets tough: nonviolent civil resistance.

David Swanson is the author of "War Is A Lie," and of "Humanitarian War vs. Humanity" -- http://davidswanson.org/node/3106
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-11 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. That is an interesting take
I do not feel able to pass moral judgement on the Libyans, and I can understand their taking to arms in response to Gaddafi's violence. But then I thought civilians were being slaughtered, from what I had heard on Twitter. Also - what about the mercenaries? I don't see a mention of them in here.

I do feel able to pass moral judgement on anyone whose sympathy would be with Gaddafi, though.

But this gives me a new view on it and more to think about and it opened my mind a bit, and so I thank you for posting it.

And of course I was always against us becoming involved - it's very clear that the Libyans don't want it, and it's not for me to tell them what's in their best interest.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-11 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. In South Africa it was a combination.
Edited on Tue Mar-08-11 11:32 PM by tabatha
Mandela started with non-violence, but the ANC moved to violence when nothing happened.

Sanctions happened, too. But there was enough time for them to be effective.

Thus it was a combination of riots and bad economics that toppled the Apartheid regime.

However, comparing Libya and South Africa is like comparing apples and oranges.

And to state one rule applies to all situations is very superficial.

I think the offer made for Gaddafi to leave within 72 hours would be something he would be stupid to refuse. He has lost all standing in the world, and if he crushes the protesters, it will be of no avail. His "reign" is over. it is just a matter of time before he has nowhere to go.

Although people say that the US wants to get involved (it does not) because of oil, ironically, oil is the major revenue earner for Libya. If it cannot be sold, it is the end of the game for Gaddafi.

I bet before the 72 hours are up, he will be out of Libya. That is why he said nothing at his "press conference".



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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Certainly wish your prediction re Gaddifi leaving in 72 hours would turn out to be right -- !!
However, from what I've read of the "tweets" evidently Gaddifi didn't ask for those

conditions -- he did not supposedly make any appeal to the protesters or Council.

Supposedly, this request for 72 hours and immunity and his wealth was made by the

State TV people -

Although people say that the US wants to get involved (it does not) because of oil, ironically, oil is the major revenue earner for Libya. If it cannot be sold, it is the end of the game for Gaddafi.

I bet before the 72 hours are up, he will be out of Libya. That is why he said nothing at his "press conference".


Wow -- quite some complications there --

We're already involved in two wars of aggression bankrupting the nation -- but I'm sure the

lure of controlling more OIL in the ME is burning in some right wing minds.

For the public, imo, the questions should be, "Where is alternative energy?

We continue on with oil and burning other fossil fuels at the expense of losing all of nature,

and our planet --

Attacking nature is simply attacking ourselves.

We have an economic system based on exploitating all of nature -- and humans.



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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You misunderstood, greatly.
"I bet before the 72 hours are up, he will be out of Libya. That is why he said nothing at his "press conference"."

Under his OWN volition - not war. I said in my post, the US does not want war.


Also, I stated that he should accept the 72 hours offer. Accepting an offer means that he did not come up with the idea.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. There is no offer -- the Libyans nor the Council have not agreed to any such terms ....

Would be great if he just moves on -- under his own volition --

Unfortunately, as usual, I think a few right wingers -- like McCain, etal -- would like

to see war and US in Libya.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. How many times on this page does it say 72 hours for Gaddafi to get out?
Edited on Wed Mar-09-11 12:42 AM by tabatha
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. If that is a real offer -- terrific -- !!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-08-11 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Think we all are coming to understand the power of non-violence .... Libyans were non-violent ....
Edited on Tue Mar-08-11 11:53 PM by defendandprotect
in the first states of their uprising -- and more --

As Gaddafi returned with violence against them -- hiring mercenaries --

leaving weapons behind, it becomes easier and easier to pick up one of their weapons and

defend youself and your family or your friend.

It's a dangerous time -- we can all see that -- but we're not there, either!

What would we actually be doing if we were there -- despite KNOWING that non-violence

is the way to go -- what would we all actually be doing.


Malcolm X had problems with MLK, Jr.'s attempts to stay non-violent --

Couldn't imagine how you could see a friend or family member harmed and not retaliate!


There is more POWER in non-violence --

We should also notice that those on the right have a firm belief in violence and weapons.

They rarely see any other way. Their violence draws us in -- pushing us to respond in kind.

That's in large part what I think the T-BAGGERS are about -- moving America to a higher plane

of aggressive political speech -- and with their rifles slung over their shoulders -- and

spitting on our elected members of Congress -- clearly they seek to have aggressive discourse

replace informed debate and discussion -- and more violent concepts of political interaction

replace non-violent political activities.

Beware -- because this is the ONLY way the right wing can rise -- via political violence --

and we've had more than 50 years of right wing political violence which has taken liberal

and progressive leadership from us -- and our people's government!



Nonviolence works because it gives the resistance legitimacy and respect within a nation and abroad, and because it can make state violence backfire. Ghadafi's military is not, in any reports I've seen, slaughtering civilians. However, think we can also understand that there is a point when given G's violence

Disagree re Gaddafi and "civilians" -- in fact, Gaddafi is commiting genocide vs the Libyans -

the town of Zawaiya has been leveled. And many other examples.

But violence does breed violence -- and it would be best if somehow the Libyan protesters can

return to a purely non-violent response. Many of them once knew that -- will they begin to

remember?







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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. libya govt is attacking towns
with same excuse US used to level Iraqi towns: enemy forces present
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. One insanity after another -- but still insanity --
Iraq is also a war of aggression -- an illegal war -- according to United Nations.

"US is a terrorist nation" according to the UN -- and I can only agree!!

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AllTooEasy Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-09-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. what happened with the other %47, and why did violence work

a quarter of the time? That %53 seems kinda' low. I guess it all depends on who you are fighting, sanity vs. insanity, miguided morality vs. a total lack of it.

Non violence worked well in Egypt, Tunisia, South Africa, and the US, so what is Iran's and Lybia's problem?

I'm with Malcolm X, I'll choice nonviolence first.
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