What being a Christian means to me.

[hamsterjill]

I'm a Christian. I believe in a higher power. And I am not ever going to apologize for that. Sometimes I'm not a very good Christian, but I do try. When I fail, I get up and try again.

I also believe that any person is free to believe as he or she wishes. Agree with me. Don't agree with me. You have the same privilege to believe what you believe that I have to believe what I do. I'm not here to convert anyone.

There are many who call themselves Christians, but I wanted to tell DU what being a Christian means to me. Me, individually. Me, as liberal. Me, as a human being.

First and foremost, being a Christian commands me to care about my fellow man. I could not be a Christian and somehow justify not signing a bill immediately that would help the 9/11 first responders. They need help. They were brave men and women who put their own lives at stake to try to save their fellow man. Therefore, my Christian faith calls upon me to care about them. I want to help them. I ache to help them. And therefore, I am a liberal and not a Republican.

I could not deny unemployment benefits to people, knowing that they might go hungry because they can't find a job. I ache to help those people, too. And therefore, I am a liberal and not a Republican.

I could not deny a fellow human being's right to be that which he/she is - if you will, in my belief system (again - you are entitled to your own) - what God made that person to be. So I support gay rights. I want everyone to feel that they can live their life however they want as long as they respect the rights of others. And therefore, I am a liberal and not a Republican.

I believe that the sick and the old and the impoverished need to be helped by those who have more, and have the ability to help those in need. And therefore, I am a liberal and not a Republican.

I believe in integrity, honesty, equality, privacy, and I believe in foregivness. Therefore, I am a liberal and not a Republican.

I know there are many posts on DU criticizing Christians. I understand the anger that many feel because, in essence, the right wing fanatics have hijacked the faith. I also understand that Christianity has a lot of violence in his history. But that's not me. So please, take a minute and remember that just as there are fanatics in every religion, there are fanatics in Christianity. I consider myself a level-headed, reasonably intelligent human being. These beliefs are a part of me that date back to my birth. When I see some idiot preaching about hate and war and violence, I know instantly that he isn't promoting the Christianity that I believe in. Because that's not what it's all about in my mind. It is about love and understanding and acceptance and compassion.

So..at the risk of offending someone here - Merry Christmas to each and every one of you. Take that to mean whatever you like, but please trust that I mean it with sincere wishes for you to have warm feelings, for you to be happy, and for you to be prosperous. Because to me, it's not the words that I speak, but the meaning that I hope to convey.

[Warpy]

1. Unfortunately, Christians all got tarred with the Dispensationalist brush

and I'm afraid mainstream Christians deserve some of the blame for that by insisting on some sort of fake Christian solidarity with these people when, in fact, Dispensationalists have pretty much removed everything Christ taught from their cockeyed brand of heavily determinist Calvinism.

If you guys want your good name back, you're going to have to deal with these folks. It's not our job. It's yours.

[xchrom]

27. i'm a believer who agrees with you.

the main stream churches did a very bad job of confronting the hate and paranoia in unaffiliated evangelical churches and southern baptists.

it was a mistake.

[quaker bill]

58. Confront them, how?

in what forum and with what authority? There is no supreme court to appeal to. I have been there and done that, it does not work.

[quaker bill]

57. No actually, we don't

I am responsible for my own good name, thankyou. I can no more deal with these folks than you can. I am vested with no special powers, nor is anyone else. The left is generally quite good on matters of prejudice and rejecting stereotypes for virtually any other purpose, except this. It is a weakness we need to grow out of.

[Warpy]

69. You're not expected to, except in a person to person way

and letting people know Dispensationalist nonsense is simply unacceptable.

Church leaders are the ones responsible for answering this stuff. They're the ones who've been clinging to a false sense of Christian solidarity with these people.

And that's why you've all got the bad name, whether or not you deserve it individually. It's unfair, but that's what happens when you don't confront evil in your own back yard directly for a long enough period.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. Unfortunately, Warpy, the fundamentalist leaders do not acknowledge our leaders as legitimate

It's sort of like the question that right-wingers like to ask: "Why don't Muslims denounce terrorism?"

They have, repeatedly. But the terrorists don't recognize the mullahs and imams who denounce terrorism as legitimate authorities, and there is no Islamic Central that has jurisdiction over all Muslims.

I've heard my own parish denounced on a local fundie TV station. They tell their people that we liberal Christians are deluded by Satan. There's not a whole lot you can do with that mindset.

[Warpy]

102. Muslim clergy around the world denounce terrorism

American mainstream clergy have been loath to denounce Dispensationalism.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

108. Really, how would you know?

The only time liberal Christians get into our local paper is in situations like this 1) A UCC church hires a transgendered minister (sensationalism), or 2) A liberal Catholic parish gets in trouble with the bishop for bending the rules (ooh! priest fight!)

[quaker bill]

118. don't you hear it?

if you had said this about people of color, or GLBTs:

"And that's why you've all got the bad name, whether or not you deserve it individually. It's unfair, but that's what happens when you don't confront evil in your own back yard..."

-- you would probably be tombstoned already. Stereotyping and prejudice against "Christians" is the only form of such behavior that is acceptable and generally applauded on the left. Dispensationalists are not in my backyard and I have no more responsiblity for them or capacity to deal with them than you do.

[wtmusic]

2. Whoever unrecced this post, Merry Christmas to you too

I'm atheist Jill, but thank you for your wishes and I will accept them in the spirit they were intended.

[Iggo]

28. And a Scintillating Solstice to you!

B-)

[RKP5637]

3. Thanks for your posting and your Merry Christmas! I'm not a religious

person, but what you stand for is wonderful. I wish all Christians were like you. It's such a shame an element of Christians use their faith to promote hatred and hostilities.

[Maru Kitteh]

4. Merry Christmas HampsterJill! You said this beautifully and if I may hook my star to your wagon,

I'd like to agree with you completely. :grouphug:

[redwitch]

63. me too.

:-)

[onehandle]

5. Very nice. Merry Christmas. nt

[TBF]

6. Merry Christmas hamsterjill -

I did a thread on this (sort of similar) yesterday - http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TBF/29

I don't know if the purists still consider me a christian as I am Methodist, but there you go. I hope your holidays are splendid and happy new year as well.

[MadMaddie]

7. Thank you for your honesty and you should not apologize

for wishing folks a Merry Christmas. This is America after all and you do have the right just as others to offer well wishes to others no matter what the form.

I believe that the MSM has played a huge role in perpetuating the vile form of Christianity pushed by all of the Huckabees and others like them.

We have to get the good word out of what Christianity really means. In order to do that it has to be seen. How to do that I don't know.

I grew up in the South and was raised in the church. I stopped going a long time ago because the hypocracy of the leaders of the church and members of the church. I am gay and when I listened to the attacks on gays while knowing that there may be gays in the pews was too much for me.

I carry my faith with me, I don't need a church or an interpreter of the bible to tell me how to live my life.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holiday's to all!!

MadMaddie

[JuniperLea]

21. Very nicely done, MadMaddie!

:hug:

I stopped going too... the hypocrisy was just too hard to watch and I knew feelings were being hurt and there's nothing Christ-like about that. Jesus didn't hang out with the saintly while here... he embraced everyone that society cast out and tried to lead by example. I sometimes think the GLBT community are being treated as the lepers of the new millennium, and no one learned the lesson.

Merry Christmas!

[RKP5637]

40. +1000 +++ n/t

[PassingFair]

8. I feel all of the things you do....

without being commanded.

Could be labeled: What being a HUMAN means to me.

[Maru Kitteh]

9. Except this isn't about you. n/t

[JuniperLea]

15. Wow...

Harsh. Since when can't we support a post on DU? Seems a little ridiculous to snark off someone like that... whatever.

[PassingFair]

16. It's my heartfelt reaction to the OP.

This is a message board. Not
a static broadside.

I'm sure that in addition to Atheists,
that Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, and Pagans
all feel the same stirrings.

They come from simple compassion for
your fellow human beings.

[JuniperLea]

18. Well said...

I feel very much the same way... see my post #11.

[PassingFair]

19. Thanks Juniper.

:hug:

Merry Christmas!

[JuniperLea]

20. Merry Christmas, PassingFair!

And Blessed Be!

:hug:

[Bragi]

17. Nor is compassion an inherently or exclusively Christian value (edited)

There is nothing that the OP says that uniquely defines Christianity. I know this because I share the same attachment to compassion that the OP expresses, and could easily substitute the words "secular humanist" where the OP uses the phrase "Christian".

I could do this because there is nothing uniquely Christian about the importance of compassion, as expressed in the OP. It is a universal sentiment and practice not associated with any one religion. It is a value shared also by non-believer in religion.

This being the case, the claim that the goal in the OP is not to spark debate on the merits of the particular religious beliefs and claims expressed, rings a bit hollow with me.

Anyway, I'll assume better, and to the OP I say happy holidays to you and yours.

[defendandprotect]

98. Agree -- completely --

[K8-EEE]

10. Rec from an ex-Christian

I'll admit I'm pretty disillusioned about Christianity (and other religions) but I'm glad there are some liberals left on the inside who have a view of Christianity as compassionate and humanitarian rather than these supremicists who want to use every means possible including the US army to impose their religion on the world.

That "Freeperization" of Christianity is scary to me and I don't remember it being so prevalent when I was growing up.

I hope the good people in Christianity, Islam and Judaism can triumph over the extremists that exist in each group. Keep fighting the good fight. Merry Christmas to you and yours!

[JuniperLea]

11. I'm Agnostic, and I feel exactly the same way you do about your fellow human beings...

I was raised in a Fundy family, I have four cousins who are preachers, and one who is a Christian missionary who has been living in Israel for the past decade. Not all of my "Christian" relatives feel the same way you and I do (please note the irony quotes). I tell them all what I'm about to tell you, and I hope you understand.

I believe everyone has the right to their own spiritual beliefs and I believe that those who chose not to explore spirituality have that right as well. As I recall, Jesus taught that the life of his followers should speak for them... a "you will know them by their fruit" kind of deal. If you uphold the teachings of Christ, and your neighbor upholds the teachings of The Buddha, I will support you both in equal measure. If someone points and says your fruit is rotten, you need to defend it... no one else can. We can support you, agree with the humanistic end result, but we are not charged by any Deity to do "The Lord's Work." That's your job... it's the job of each individual.

That said... I love this post and I hope it reaches others, Christian or otherwise, to understand that the milk of human kindness doesn't come with a Kosher seal, a Christian seal, a Buddhist seal... it's unpackaged and pure and no one group owns it.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. religion forum exists for a reason

[Union Scribe]

31. So does the little x next to the thread titles, iirc.

[11 Bravo]

53. Yeah, but that would negate the possibility of offering a snarky response.

Being a truly righteous lefty atheist dude requires a few trade-offs.

[DainBramaged]

86. So is your reply meant to censor the words of those you disagree with?

Merry Christmas.

[WiffenPoof]

13. Merry Christmas from an Atheist

I really appreciate your post. Unfortunately, as you already know, many of your fellow Christians do not follow your example. And I think that is sad for your religion.

In many ways I consider myself more Christian than many of the Christians out there (even rough I am an atheist). I adhere to basically the same principles that you outlined. I try and be a "good person." Thanks for reminding us that there are level-headed Christians out there.

-PLA

[trotsky]

14. "right wing fanatics have hijacked the faith"?

I've got news for you.

Right wing fanatics have RUN the religion since the very early days. Liberal believers like you are a minority in the Christian community, I'm sorry to say.

[styersc]

22. Merry Christmas.

All of my liberalism comes from my Christian faith and I make no apologies.

[Wanet]

23. Merry Christmas to you also!

From another liberal Christian. May God bless you in the coming year. (It takes a lot of guts to post a religious thread on this website -- I commend you for that.) -- Wanet

[polmaven]

24. Very nicely put, jill.

As another poster noted below, I, too, am a Methodist, and my congregations is very much in the form you have outlined. We are a "reconciling" congregation, and, as such, have made a deliberate statement to the LGBT community that they are welcome among us and no Christian version of DATD will be in place. Even the Republican members of the congregation are with us on that.

The UMC, as a whole, still maintains some anti LGBT issues, and the "reconciling" members are working actively to eliminate those. The church holds quadrennial Conferences, and my particular district has a habit of sending representatives who favor eliminating the ban on same sex marriage and LGBT ordination. In 2008 they came within 50 votes of the first.

There are several here who openly mock people of faith, but most are tolerant and accepting.

Again, thank you for your post, and a very Merry Christmas to you as well.

[Prophet 451]

25. Well, it's not my way

I don't share your faith (matter of fact, I'm a Luciferian Satanist) but I'm not going to mock you and I'll tell you why. I was raised by my Grimmer (grandmother). She'd started out as a pediatric nurse. Then she ran a children's home. And by teh time I came along, she'd acquired a big Victorian place from the local council and filled it with disabled and disturbed kids. All the kids who passed through her care over the years went off to college or a job or an apprenticeship (this was back when an apprenticeship gave you a valuable trade). I know it wasn't easy with the council always shaving allowances and cutting corners. I also know she was a quiet but devout Christian, one of those who doesn't just talk about Jesus's teachings but tries to live them every single day. And I know that she drew a lot of strength and inspiration from her faith. When she died, we managed to track down a few dozen of the kids who'd passed through her care and all of them remembered her with fondness.

So, every time I see some thumper screaming about how the rest of us are all evil and I get tempted to write all Christians off as a lost cause, I remember my Grimmer and how she slaved every day of her life to give the kids everyone else had given up on a decent start in life.

See, I might be a Satanist and I might have a problem with God but I've actually read the Bible and Jesus, he had a lot of worthwhile stuff to say. I think a lot of Republicans have reinvented Jesus in their minds as a kind of proto-Reagan (Al Franken did a good cartoon of "Supply-Side Jesus") who, naturally, mouthed Republican doctrine on everything and tend to forget that Jesus was a thirty year old builder who hung out with the most disliked people of his time. In modern terms, he took his message to the streets and hung out with hookers, dissidents and the poor (and America seems to despise the poor). Good man with a good message, maybe the first liberal.

So it's not my way but the way I figure it, if you can accept that others believe differently than yourself, so can I.

Merry Christmas, dude.

[blondeatlast]

34. I'm willing to bet that you know more about the Bible than many of my Xtian (as I count myself)

brothers and sisters. Your Grimmer sounds a lot like my father, who left a promising career in teduaction to follow a similar path but in public service. He was such a fierce advocate for the rights of the developmentally disabled that he pissed off the powers that be and we had to move frequently--but he didn't just teach Sunday School, he lived it in nearly everything he did.

I appreciate those who have tested their faith (as I have) and found other paths. I've actually been asked to leave Bible Study, fwiw--all I really wanted to talk about was the Book of Matthew! I found my way back to my faith (NOT belief--I have doubts, indeed) for reasons of my own, but I appreciate those that take another road.

So, merry Christmas (or however you choose to find light in the midst of the gloom) to you and yours.

Chhers! :toast:

[blondeatlast]

26. I'm a UU who clings to the Christianity I was raised on (Matthew 25: 31-45)

Matthew, of course, is the most difficult book to live and the wackjobs just don't even bother.

Your post took courage and I thank you for it; you spoke well for me, too.

Merry Christams and Happy Holidays to everyone. In the midst of social misery and the physical gloom of winter (even here in AZ) I think it's wise to remind ourselves not why we have faith, but how we should practice it. Well done, HJ--and I sincerely thank you for your post and practice of faith.

Side note: I don't "believe," I have doubts that have been tested, yet I still return to spirituality every time. In short, I have faith that there is something that unites us all, whether we have faith or not. Even if it's simply carbon and DNA, it's a powerful force when it is exercised.

I won't apologize, either.

[lunatica]

29. I'm not a Christian and I do all the same things

And Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy Saturnalia or Happy Yule or whatever Happy Pagan day any celebrates!

[mmonk]

30. Merry Christmas.

I miss the seasons and the Church sometimes, like it was before Bush.

[HockeyMom]

32. Humanists?

I think that is the word that best describes people with these views. It doesn't matter what religion or non religious views they hold. It doesn't even matter what country they live in either.

It reminds me of that old song, "We are the world, we are the children." Caring, and helping, ALL of our fellow human beings just because it is the right thing to do.

[Cyrano]

33. Hi, hamsterjill. I love your post.

As a "devout" agnostic, I often feel animosity toward religious zealots (in all religions) who demand that everyone else believe as they do. But your posting is a message of hope, tolerance and love.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

Cyrano

[Bragi]

41. a message of hope, tolerance and love --- not

The posting in an undisguised attack on the beliefs of the conservative branch of Christianity by someone from the liberal branch of Christianity.

It's a display of the general discord that arises from religious beliefs, not a message of hope, tolerance and love.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. This is well said, but I have a simple question;

Absent your belief in the higher power of Christian faith, would you not care about your fellow man? Would you not "believe in" forgiveness, integrity, honesty, privacy and equality?

The moral code is built in to humans brains. Some to a greater degree than others, but IMHO, the degree to which this manifests itself in a person's behavior has little relationship to their chosen faith.

K&R anyway, and Merry Christmas.

[H2O Man]

36. Very nice!

I really like this message. Recommended.

[lapislzi]

37. K + R by this nonbeliever

Very beautifully and powerfully stated.

Merry Christmas, happy holidays, peace on earth, good will to all.

[northoftheborder]

38. Thank you for your courage to state your beliefs.

I, too, am a Christian; I agree with all of your points stated; I also believe in science, and see no conflict between faith and science. Science is a study of the factual evidence about the physical laws of our earth and and the hemisphere. Religion is about matters of faith, and how that faith inspires us to live a life of service to our fellow man. I am not evangelical; my prayers are private, and my own life is my only witness.

We live in a multicultural society, and I firmly believe in anyone's rights to believe or worship, or not, whatever is right for them.

What truly sickens me is how the political right wing has appropriated and misinterpreted the Christian religion to achieve power and wealth, and to disparage and demean those of other religions and beliefs. Their antics have turned so many people away from not only Christianity, but faith of any kind. They are evil in my eyes.

[Bragi]

43. Courage?

How much courage does it take to associate compassion with Christianity in a country where the bulk of the population are devout, true believers?

[Bragi]

39. I wonder about the real purpose of the OP

The original posting reads to me like an attack by one Christian on the views and politics of another branch of the same religion.

The OP wrote: I'm not here to convert anyone.

Really? The post talks at length about compassion, and gives specifics where compassion is needed, and then associates the ability to show human compassion with the specific personal "Christian" beliefs they hold, beliefs which are not, apparently, the same as the bad beliefs of bad Christians. Not to mention those of unbelievers, I guess.

Which is fine, but this being so, I think it is then disingenuous to claim that just want to say hello and wish everyone a "Merry Christmas" like the good compassionate person you are, and that you aren't trying to convert anyone to your viewpoint. I think the OP is obviously trying to convert, which is fine, but I think he/she should at least be honest about it.

And Happy Holidays to the OP, and to all!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

87. (sigh)

Merry Christmas. I'm sure you'll find coal in any OP this season......

[earth mom]

44. FYI- you are preaching to us all on this thread. I'm agnostic & have way more ethics & compassion

than most christians I know put together.

Fact: christians don't have a lock on compassion or ethics or morals.

[quaker bill]

55. As you say

"christians don't have a lock on compassion or ethics or morals." and Fact: it is rather un-Christian to ever pretend one does.

I do not know of your ethics and compassion, but it is good that you hold yourself in such high esteem.

[DainBramaged]

89. If you have way more ethics and compassion, why are you being such a Scrooge?

:shrug:

[earth mom]

114. How is it being a Scrooge to say that I don't want to see a holier than thou post like this in GD?!

:wtf:

I don't see Jewish people or Buddhists or Hindus EVER making posts like this and I've been on DU for years.

It's ALWAYS the holier than thou christians who think they are better than everyone else.

BTW, FYI, I celebrate MY version of Xmas WITHOUT jezus. I love giving presents and have been known to go overboard with gift giving to my immediate family.

I could care less what you think, but don't you dare call me Scrooge. :grr:

[WolverineDG]

111. The OP never said Christians did

:eyes:

dg

[delightfulstar]

45. Beautiful post!

People need to realize that not all people who believe are hate-mongering, radical fools. Nowhere in the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'ran, et al does it say that it's right to persecute others, or treat them unfairly, or anything else like that. Our job as human beings, regardless of what our faith may be, is to be good stewards of the people we love, the world we live in, and to conduct ourselves being mindful of what is right and beneficial for all of us. Thank you for bringing this to the forefront, and reminding us of what we can be. Merry Christmas, and peace to you and yours during this blessed season.

[tkmorris]

67. Not to be contrary, but yes they actually do

Can't be certain about the Torah (pretty certain it does but cannot recall a specific line atm), but the Bible and Qur'an most definitely do. Of course other passages may say completely the opposite but it's wrong to claim that the persecutorial passages don't exist.

However, Merry Christmas to you, the OP, and everyone else (Are there people who actually get offended by this phrase? I hear stories always but have never actually seen it happen. I've had more than a few wish this gentile a Happy Hanukkah and I cannot recall ever being remotely offended by it).

[bemildred]

46. Well said.

Merry Christmas to you and all of yours too.

[Vinca]

47. As an atheist, I feel exactly the same way you do.

How did the other Christians get side tracked into thinking wealth was God's reward and the poor were an annoyance? Merry Christmas to you.

[AsahinaKimi]

48. As a Buddhist

Allow me to say, Enjoy your holiday and happy New Year..

Tanoshin de kudasai to Yoi Otoshi Wo! (たのしんでくださいとよい　お年　を!)

[AspenRose]

49. Merry Christmas.

:hug:

[Elmore Furth]

50. Merry Christmas!

What I really admire about DUers is they have heart. They are principled people who believe one person can make a difference.

Go for it!

[Number23]

51. Merry Christmas to you too!

:hi:

[Duer 157099]

52. To me, those things should be fundamental to just being human

Being a Christian has to do with accepting Jesus Christ as savior. Equating Christianity with believing in fundamental human rights really twists things up, imho.

[Chovexani]

54. At the risk of throwing a wet blanket on this love in.

It's great that you believe what you do. Really. I don't begrudge you any of the sentiment in your post; as a person of faith (albeit one very different from yours), I understand that beliefs can run quite deep, and I understand how meaningful they are.

But, you know, as a Christian in this culture, you have privilege. Just as white people have privilege, men have privilege, straight people and cis people have privilege. And just like every form of privilege, your intent is irrelevant. What does, in fact matter, is the effect your words, even when carefully chosen, has on those of us who are not fortunate enough to share your privilege.

Since you were kind enough to share your thoughts, I'll go ahead and share what happened to me this morning, the day after my particular winter holiday, which is the Winter Solstice (a night that had especially poignant meaning for me, with the Lunar Eclipse happening. I re-dedicated myself in service to my primary Goddess). This morning, I overheard a thirty minute long conversation on speakerphone between two devout, self-identified Born Again Christians. I heard them go on for almost the entire thirty minute period in the most vile, bigoted, and disgusting fashion about lesbians, in light of the DADT repeal, as one of them is an Army vet and a retired VA nurse. The worst kind of Fred Phelps homophobia, about how lesbians are violent perverts and disgusting predators who prey on naive young women in bad circumstances.

These two Christians happened to be my mother and my sister. They don't know that I'm bisexual, and happily partnered with a wonderful, beautiful bisexual woman; they barely acknowledge my Paganism (that is very much a DADT subject in the family), and in fact actively push their religion on me at any and every given opportunity. They are very much the type of Christian that you are frustrated by. They talk in all smug seriousness about Jesus being the reason for the season, and scoff at Jews "making a big deal out of some made up holiday" out of jealousy. And as they so easily shifted from vile bigotry and hatred to their own brand of Purpose-Driven holiday cheer, I reverted to the desperate sixteen year old girl that nearly became another LGBT suicide statistic in 1997, only without the self harm, thankfully. I cried until I had a panic attack, because I realized yet again, during this season of goodwill and togetherness, that these Good Christians would never love and accept me for who I am, despite the blood we share.

So, when I read the words "Merry Christmas", or hear them, I don't hear those warm feelings you intended to share, or those wishes for happiness. I hear yet another privileged, selfish asshole not giving a good damn about what I believe in, or who I am; who only pays lipservice to my pain to make themselves look better. I hear yet another person who can't be arsed to understand that not everyone is a Christian, that not everyone shares your feelings about the holiday, and that some of us are in fact quite irritated by the fact that a day that was sacred to our ancestors was entirely co-opted for the purpose of wiping out our beliefs, as damn near every holiday in your religion was; I think of the sacred statues of Aset and and Her son, Heru sa Aset, that were stolen for images of Mary and Jesus.

I hear yet another reminder that no one outside my own faith respects my faith. I am reminded that not only can I not expect to receive validation in mainstream popular culture, I can expect to hear elected officials up to and including the President of the United States saying that the Constitution does not protect my faith, and I get to hear every hack late night comedian and talking head commentator, even people who share my political viewpoints, actively mocking my religious beliefs. I get to hear over and over again about how I'm not an American because of the Gods I love, and that these same people think I'm even less of an American because of the woman I love.

I'm sorry that your Christian privilege means that none of this probably occurred to you when you typed out Merry Christmas. But it did to me, very painfully so considering the raw wound I'm nursing today, and that's why I have a very difficult time taking the rest of your post seriously. If you're making a good faith effort to reach out to people who don't share your beliefs, you first have to understand that marginalized people (and religious minorities as well as nonbelievers share this marginalization in our culture, not to mention LGBT folks) do not owe you anything--and I mean truly understand, and not simply pay lipservice to the notion.

I hope you read this message with an open mind and heart, and accept it in the spirit with which it was given.

[quaker bill]

56. friend, thee has the freedom

to leave such threads unread. Given your stated suffering, I would wholly recommend it.

[Chovexani]

59. Forgive me.

I was unaware that threads in General Discussion were not actually up for discussion.

Your empathy is appreciated, though.

[quaker bill]

119. It was only a recommendation

you are of course free to cause yourself whatever suffering you care to. The threads seem open for discussion, but there also seems to be no obligation to each read them. You are the one reporting suffering upon reading this one. It is OK though, as one generally does not need to look far here to find something irritating regardless of where you are coming from.

[hamsterjill]

61. Methos and Macleod?

I loved that series!

[Nye Bevan]

64. When someone gives me a greeting for a holiday that I happen not to celebrate

I say "thanks, you too!" I don't let it ruin my day. I'm sure most of the "Merry Christmas" greetings you receive are meant well. And you probably get a day off from work on Christmas- that's something to be merry about.

[Bragi]

65. +++!

[Violet_Crumble]

72. I'm not even a Christian and it didn't occur to me how saying Merry Xmas can cause intense suffering

My apologies for being a privileged Atheist. See, when this Atheist hears 'Merry Christmas', she returns the greeting and thinks to herself 'thank dog there's a few shopping days left before Giftmas is upon us again. And thank dog for not having to go to work over the Giftmas period'. I think life would be pretty damn sad if people couldn't say Merry Christmas for fear of emotionally destroying some soul who reads something longer than War & Peace into a simple greeting...

The OP did a good job at reaching out to me, who is someone who doesn't share their beliefs at all. I really respect them for it and think they expressed it really well and what you call a 'love in' is DUers being nice to each other...

Merry Giftmas and a Hoppy New Year and Easter!

[Dorian Gray]

84. I can't believe I made it 39

years in this world, and your post is the first time I've heard "Giftmas." 'Tis the reason for the season, afterall. Perfect nickname.

[woo me with science]

79. Just wondering...Do you feel the same way about Islam,

and would you find a post by a Muslim about his or her religion as painful and offensive as you seem to find this post?

Christianity is not special, nor even particularly egregious, in its treatment of gays and lesbians.

I just wonder if a post by a Muslim sharing his or her faith would receive the same response of pain and offense from you, in sympathy for all the gays and lesbians, not to mention just WOMEN, who have been deeply and violently harmed by some practicing Muslims and Muslim leaders. Or is your resentment toward Christians, specifically as a group, based primarily on your own personal hurts?

[Dorian Gray]

83. I'm sorry

that you've suffered through such dismissiveness, bigotry, and small-mindedness at home. You should trust your mom and your sister, and it totally sucks that you can't. I hope your Winter Solstice was happy. It was a special one this year, that is true, and for those of you who celebrate the seasonal changes and all that symbolizes, it was a huge deal.

[Rainbowreflect]

101. I am very sorry for what you had to deal with.

:hug:
I cannot completely understand, as I am a straight, white, Christian women living in RED American. And most of my family are liberal. But I do know that it is wrong that you have been made to feel the way you do. It is wrong that anyone is treated as less than someone else for the color of their skin, their faith or no faith, or their sexual orientation.

All I can say is I am sorry for your pain.

[tinkerbell41]

60. I'm an Atheist

I celebrate Christmas, it has no meaning to me except lights, tree, cookies, santa, and presents. Christmas Carols are nice also.
I am totally turned off by any friend or family member who even mentions God. Or Jesus. I have NEVER met anyone who went to Church and or practiced their faith, that could compare to the way I have lived my life without it. There is no need, you either live as a good person or you don't.

[harun]

62. Thanks for posting. Salam and Merry Christmas.

[walldude]

66. A Merry Christmas to you as well...

Can I ask you a question? MY problem with religion is not the belief in a higher power, but the belief that men can claim to know the wishes of this higher power. I never understood why you need a "church". Isn't it easier just to talk to god without the middle man? To me Christianity seems like a scam. A trick to bleed money out of people like you who believe in a higher power. I just don't understand the need for "church". I personally am not sure if there is a "god" I know there is more to the Universe then meets the eye, but I could never reconcile that with some guy calling me a sinner.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. My answer to your question is that no, we can't know the ultimate secrets

of existence, but the truth is so complex that there are many ways of approaching it.

The whole point of the Protestant Reformation was that people don't need a formal organization to mediate between them and God.

However, formal organizations have their place.

I belong to an organized branch of Christianity way provides a framework of practices and rituals for my life, a sense of community that is quite unlike any other, and a congregate way of accomplishing good in the world.

I happen to be an Episcopalian, but others may find these qualities in Buddhism or Paganism or Islam or whatever is more meaningful to them.

I'm sorry that you have encountered only the scammers, almost all of whom inhabit the fundamentalist churches and our vetted by no one. (Anybody can start a "community church"--which is nearly always a codeword for "fundamentalist.")

Clergy in mainstream denominations have to go through three years of seminary and a year of internship before they can be ordained (potential Episcopal clergy have to go through up to two years of evaluation by their parish and diocese before they can even go to seminary). Once they are in a parish, they are on a salary scale that is determined by the size of the parish and their level of experience. The rest of the money is controlled by a board (called "the vestry" in the Episcopal church) elected at large from among the congregation. Finances are also revealed publicly in the parish's newsletter. If a person wanted to get rich, there are far easier ways to go about it than becoming a clergy person in a mainline Protestant denomination.

[GOPBasher]

68. Merry Christmas from this atheist!

Christians like you make the world a better place, and I appreciate that. :-)

[white_wolf]

70. In threads like these

I always feel like posting a few of my favorite Bible verses that illustrates how I think the Christian Ideal is the province of the Left and not the Right. James chapter 2:1-12. 1 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
and James 5:1-6. Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. A merry christmas to you too...

Another atheist checking in to return the greeting. That was a really lovely post, btw...

[Lucian]

75. I share all those beliefs and I don't believe in a damn thing.

You don't need religion to have those qualities. God has nothing to do with how we are. We are the way we are because of our DNA and our life experiences. That's rational. Believing a god, when there is no evidence for one, is not rational.

I'm glad you're a good person. But you don't need religion to be a good person.

[Contrary1]

76. As a teen, my mother asked me why I lost my faith...

I never lost it, in fact; 40+ years later, I still have it.

I lost my religion (Catholic), or maybe they lost me.

And I too; believe in a higher power. I have experienced a couple things that some might call miracles. Whether it was divine intervention or not, it helped me through some of the most difficult times of my life.

Anyway; to me being a Christian means doing what I can to help those in need. I bought a new car battery to help a family make it back home. I have anonymously paid for prescriptions at the pharmacy when I heard that someone couldn't afford a whole month's supply. I have filled more than one gas tank for a stranger who didn't have the money.

I don't do it for recognition...I do it because if I was in the same situation, I would hope that someone somewhere would do the same for me.

I believe we are put on this earth to help one another. And it saddens me that so many others don't feel the same.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

78. with 67 recommends so far - it is clear that many people on this forum do appreciate this post

With 83% of Americans defining themselves as Christian it is clear that many Americans also share this - as you say - "specific delusional belief/obsession."

Religion in the U.S. vs. the World:
United States World
Christian 83% 33
No religion 13 15
All non-Christian religions 4 52

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

[Foolacious]

80. I am an atheist, and I love you.

Keep doing as you do, and believing as you believe. I believe we are here to help one another, and you epitomise this. Merry Christmas.

[OneGrassRoot]

81. I love the OP and you. K&R.

:yourock:

:hug:

:hi:

[mia]

82. Merry Christmas, hamsterjill!

Thanks for your inspiring message too.

[DainBramaged]

85. Merry Christmas to you too

We should all remember to walk in His footsteps, even if we think He is fictional, because He teaches that we are not whole unless we do for those who can't do for themselves.

[Ilsa]

88. Merry Christmas! Great post. nt

[randr]

90. Merry Christmas back to you

I, personally, do not identify with Christianity but I know a Christian when I meet one.
You would fit that very well!
Thanks for sharing and reminding us their are Christians who take their faith seriously.

[RegieRocker]

91. Nice post!

and remember humility is foremost. People are like a box of chocolates. You'll always find a few nuts.

[Roy Rolling]

92. Way to reconcile all here....

If the topic is framed as the differece between religion and faith, then everyone can get something of value. Religion is an instinct like hunger and it is the human intellectual drive to find and acknowledge the rules and powers that govern all things. Whether it is a personal God like some believe or it is an impersonal laws of nature like others believe--something bigger than us makes the sun shine or the plants grow.

Faith is the mechanism for embracing those beliefs---there is Christian faith, Muslim faith, atheistic faith, Hindu faith, etc. Religion is unavoidable, we all must submit to a higher power, we can only function on this earth within the laws that are superior to our human power. Faith is a choice of what we believe where those powers emenate.

[darkstar3]

113. False

"we all must submit to a higher power"

No, no we really must not.

[Jim__]

93. Merry Christmas hamsterjill! - n/t

[Pathwalker]

94. Merry Christmas Hamsterjill. Thank you for the post.

And to those not of the Christian faith - Happy Holidays!
To one and all, I wish you great joy and a Magnificent New Year!
:hi:

[RZM]

95. I've never been a believer

But I've always had a lot of respect for pious people who build their lives around the positive aspects of their faith. Even though most highly-religious people I know vote Republican, most of them are really good people whom I would support any day of the week. Religious faith isn't a good fit for me personally, but I have nothing but good things to say about people whose faith pushes them to be better people.

Good luck to you!

[joanbarnes]

96. Being a Christian

Well said, and much the same for me. Anymore I hesitate to confirm my Christianity because I don't want to be associated with "them" (the hijackers).

[hamsterjill]

97. Wow! Thanks for all of the wonderful, intellectual replies!!!

I've been amazed at the replies to my thread! Wow! There has been some incredible, deep thinking going on here, and I am truly inspired by what I've read and very proud to be a member of such a community as DU.

I'd like to address, generally, a few of the replies.

First, I think I should have done a better job of stating that the "values" I described are certainly NOT exclusive to Christianity - but exist in many religions, beliefs, and certainly to most of "humanity" in general. It was not my intention to say that such values were unique to my beliefs, nor to exclude the goodness from anyone or anything, but my post was written as specific to me - about just me, the individual. So, please allow me to clarify that. I see a lot of bad in the world. I think we all do. But I see a heckuva lot of good, too. The good just doesn't always get the attention that it deserves.

Secondly, to those posters who are looking for some "hidden agenda" for my post, well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but there simply was none. In this world of suspicion and distrust, I can understand that being a concern. But, honestly, sometimes things really ARE just what they are. This was simply something I wanted to say.

Thirdly, boy have *I* learned something!!!! I've learned that no matter how hard I try to phrase a thought or a point that I want to make, that our English language is simply not perfect, and there are always going to be people who see something that wasn't intended, or read a sentence in a way that the original writer had not intended, nor realized. No doubt, there will be something from this reply that someone finds offensive. So what will that lesson teach me on DU? I hope I'll be more careful about my own responses. I'll try to read posts a little better and try to think a little more before I make some quick-witted response. And I'm sure I'll fail miserably sometimes.

And lastly, what have I REALLY learned? I've learned that no matter how divided this community seems at times, that it is still a valuable place for so many of us to come, express ourselves, be heard and listen to others - other ideas, other thoughts, other opinions.

We have all GOT to learn to overcome petty differences and stick together. The basic, essential rule is that there has to be more of US at the voting booths than there are of THEM. (I won't even go into voting issues...I'm simply talking about basic principles here). Sometimes I worry that the Republicans do a better job of that. That's my personal opinion. Either way, let's make it an important point to all of us that we remember that essential element. We certainly need discussion and arguments and discord - everything - so that we pick the right candidates, etc. But when it comes time to step into the voting booth, we have got to stick together so that we outnumber the opponents.

Thank you again to EVERYONE for your replies. You have brightened my holidays!

[Rainbowreflect]

99. I don't think there is a word there that does not apply to me.

I have always believed a am liberal in great part to what I understand Christ taught us. I cannot comprehend how someone can call themselves a Christian and then dismiss everything Jesus stood for. But that is just me.

[LongTomH]

100. This was a very good post, with some very thoughtful replies!

I'm trying to remember who posted a tag line: "I am a Christian, as I am a Jew, as I am a Muslim, as I am a Hindu....." and so on. I'm probably misstating it; but I support the sentiment, as I support your wonderful post.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Solstice to all!

[Taverner]

103. Not to nit pick, but how do you feel about the accounts of genocide in the OT?

Old Testament, that is.

And it's not just in Joshua, it's also in Kings, Psalms, and many other OT books.

[Nye Bevan]

105. Wasn't that written *before* the time of Christ?

So it would not necessarily be compatible with Christianity?

True Christianity means following Christ's teachings from the Gospels:

Love your neighbor as yourself
Do unto others as you would have done unto you
Turn the other cheek
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone
Blessed are the peacemakers

etc.

Merry Christmas!

[Taverner]

110. Matt 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle...

"...will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

[yawnmaster]

106. The New Testament is the basis of Christianity...and imo it comes down to these...

1. Love God
2. Love your neighbor as yourself

The priorities of the OT are changed in the NT... its New, after all.

I don't believe any genocide is preached in the New Testament; I believe it is to the contrary.

Of course, just because this is the basis of Christianity, it does not guarantee that all, so-called and otherwise, Christians behave in this manner.

[Taverner]

109. I never sad there was genocide in the NT

God does smite a lot of people, however...first part of Acts has a lot of smitings.

I agree the NT is a lot better than the OT, but that's just it - ethics had evolved. When most of the OT was written, incest was common, you died at 30, held diseases for life, and the divide between rich and poor was a lot greater (not that it mattered, there wasn't much to buy)

NT was written post-Greek Enlightenment, current of the Roman enlightenment. They knew about things like pi, crop rotation, incest was less tolerated, steps were taken to avoid diseases. There still was a divide, but there was a lot more commerce going on around the Mediterranean.

In short - humans could afford to be more ethical.

[bobthedrummer]

104. I believe that Jesus Christ is the holder of all the Holy Titles that are His alone

such as the Son of God, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, our High Priest Forever, Messiah.

My faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from God, and has led me to a much better life here on Earth and the promise of eternal life. I wouldn't know what love is without Him, as I would have died if not for Him caring about me.

Merry Christmas to all.
Bob

[Bragi]

120. That's depressing

I always find it depressing when people express the unfounded belief that there's an invisible skygod somewhere micromanaging their life, and responsible for everything good that happens to them.

[yawnmaster]

107. Merry Christmas Hamsterjill...

and to all those who are not offended by the wish...
to those that are, please disregard this message, in its entirety.

[darkstar3]

112. You were so close...

and then you wrote the last paragraph. With everything before it you made a simple declaration about what you believe and why it convinces you to be a liberal, but then in the last paragraph you donned the mantle of the persecuted Christian, and threw in proof to show us all that you believe in the completely manufactured "War on Christmas".

If you think the right-wing fanatics have hijacked the faith, why end your post by hitting on two of their memes?

[devils chaplain]

115. From an Atheist...

Merry Christmas to you.

[ProgressOnTheMove]

116. Even if there turns out to be no God in the end it's wiser to have a higher authority to our

behavior or we become our own Gods. Christianity has been distorted but the central message is love for one another and the salvation the capacity to forgive in order to maintain that love. Certainly there are things we can never forgive but always many things we can.

[raouldukelives]

117. Merry Christmas n/t

[Mimosa]

121. K&R Wishing Peace, good health, happiness and financial security for all. n/t