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Arne's words were precursor to recent attacks on teachers and unions. He bears responsibility.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:13 AM
Original message
Arne's words were precursor to recent attacks on teachers and unions. He bears responsibility.
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 12:17 AM by madfloridian
I feel that his statement in 2010 about teachers and their unions was a precursor to the attacks against unions that are going on right now.

I do not kid myself at all on this topic. This administration is not standing with union members strongly. The attacks are unrelenting, and he has spoken only a very few words about it.

The reality is that there is little Democratic support for teachers and labor right now. Even those who have spoken out on the importance of unions are not on the air talking about it and expressing support. It's like the plan is to not make any waves, though the other side has no scruples at all.

I firmly believe that the attacks on teachers have happened more frequently since the appointment of Arne Duncan as Education Secretary. He has enabled them by creating an atmosphere in which the public school teachers are not respected.

Some examples:

From Education Week:

Duncan on Race to Top: Bold Reform More Crucial Than Buy-In

Today, in a routine conference call with the business community (he does this sort of outreach regularly), he declared: "At the end of the day we're going to the strongest proposals whether they have tremendous buy-in or not." (The department invited me to listen in on the call, which was to encourage business leaders to support states' Race to the Top efforts.)

Although broad collaboration and buy-in should remain a goal, he said, if a state's proposal is "more consensus but watered-down reform, that's not going to be a winning application.


In other words, try to get the unions to go along...but don't worry about it if they don't.

More from the Wall Street Journal from last year.

Unions, States Clash in Race to Top

Mr. Duncan said in an interview that he welcomed the friction between union and state officials but warned against states weakening their overhaul plans simply to win buy-ins from unions. "Watered-down proposals with lots of consensus won't win," he said. "And proposals that drive real reform will win."

The Race to the Top program, a centerpiece of Mr. Duncan's push to promote innovation, aims to reward states that are promoting charter schools, tying teacher pay to student performance and implementing systems to track students' progress.

In some states, the atmosphere has grown toxic. Indiana's state school superintendent, Tony Bennett, blamed union obstruction on Thursday for his decision drop out of the federal competition.


Indeed the atmosphere grew more hostile. The DOE came out and told unions they were unimportant.

Now there is deeper hostility, and few words from the administration at all.

From the beginning Arne Duncan made it clear he was implementing the education strategy of George W. Bush and his father.

Democrats implementing Bush education "reforms".

It turns out that Duncan, like the Bush administration, adores testing, charter schools, merit pay, and entrepreneurs. Part of the stimulus money, he told Sam Dillon of The New York Times, will be used so that states can develop data systems, which will enable them to tie individual student test scores to individual teachers, greasing the way for merit pay. Another part of the stimulus plan will support charters and entrepreneurs.

..."At the charter school, Duncan endorsed the core principles of the Bush education program. According to the account in the Times, Secretary Duncan said that "increasing the use of testing across the country should also be a spending priority." And he made this astonishing statement: "We should be able to look every second grader in the eye and say, 'You're on track, you're going to be able to go to a good college, or you're not...Right now, in too many states, quite frankly, we lie to children. We lie to them and we lie to their families."


He advocated using the education stimulus to develop more testing and more testing databases that tied teachers to test scores of students. In this he chose to set up a conflict between teachers' unions and the states and districts.

He succeeded, and the movement to destroy teachers' unions is well under way now.

Here is the most interesting article I read on the topic of these new "reforms." Lois Weiner, professor of education at New Jersey City University, pointed out that these same kinds of reforms had been tried before...in Chile under Pinochet.

Education professor says Arne's plans not unique to U. S., previously carried out in Chile.

Juan Gonzalez asked her about the reforms. Here is part of the transcript.

Gonzalez asks her to compare not only what’s happening here in the United States, but around the world, in terms of these so-called reform initiatives.

LOIS WEINER: Absolutely. And I think it’s important to understand that Race to the Top is not unique to the United States, and what Arne Duncan did in Chicago is not unique to Chicago. And in fact, the contours of this program were carried out first under Pinochet in Chile. And this program was implemented by force of military dictatorships and the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in Latin America. And the results have been verified by researchers there. They produced increased stratification. So I think what we’re seeing right now are the results of that increased stratification, a stratification, inequality of results, because if you think about it, No Child Left Behind is almost a decade old. And what are the results? The results are a growing gap between poor minority—achievement of poor minority kids and those kids who come from prosperous families who are—who live in affluent suburbs and in those suburban schools.


Weiner went on to point out that teachers' unions were an impediment in this effort to deprofessionalize teaching. So they must go. They must be marginalized.

LOIS WEINER: Well, I think it’s important to understand that there are—No Child Left Behind is part of this global project to deprofessionalize teaching as an occupation. And the reason that it’s important in this project to deprofessionalize teaching is that the thinking is that the biggest expenditure in education is teacher salaries. And they want to cut costs. They want to diminish the amount of money that’s put into public education. And that means they have to lower teacher costs. And in order to do that, they have to deprofessionalize teaching. They have to make it a revolving door, in which we’re not going to pay teachers very much. They’re not going to stay very long. We’re going to credential them really fast. They’re going to go in. We’re going to burn them up. They’re going to leave in three, four, five years. And that’s the model that they want.

So who is the biggest impediment to that occurring? Teachers’ unions. And that is what explains this massive propaganda effort to say that teachers’ unions are an impediment to reform. And in fact, they are an impediment to the deprofessionalization of teaching, which I think is a disaster. It’s a disaster for public education.


It's as though our party's leaders are taking a hands off approach and letting the situation work itself out. I never expected I would see the day that would be stance of the Democrats.

I believe Arne perhaps inadvertently gave the green light for the present attacks when he set up the conflict between teachers' unions and everyone else.

I would like to see him be replaced by someone who has respect for the teaching profession. I don't think that will happen.


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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, he does bear some of the responsibility.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. k&r
Dead on.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. "inadvertently"??
If it was inadvertent, then he should have been called on it by his boss.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. I was trying to say it nicely.
He is doing what the president wants.
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Plucketeer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
43. Maybe Obama and Arne are...
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 11:39 AM by Plucketeer
...having a difficult time finding some "comfortable shoes". :evilfrown:
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. you are totally and absolutely correct, madfloridian.
Those saying Obama shouldn't go to Madison or say anymore to support collective bargaining are propping up the attacks on teachers and other public sector workers by their acquiescence.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. It is wrong to let such vicious attacks on labor go without standing against them.
I am surprised.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Am I the only one who doesn't want Obama in WI?
He certainly hasn't supported teachers or unions. I don't see how his presence there would help. :shrug:
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. well, I want him in WI so his real agenda
becomes obvious. Since he and Arne are out to destroy public education and teacher's unions, I think he ought to face the music. But of course he won't because he would be sending mixed messages to the corporations that own him.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. I see Obama's anti-teacher agenda as a separate issue
We need to keep the focus on what the republicans are doing. Perhaps the president will come around eventually.

JMHO. :)
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. If you're not part of the solution . . . yes, Arne is part of the problem. So is Barack.
They're part of the IMF restructuring solution.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. I think I like Arne Duncan.
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 12:32 AM by LoZoccolo
It it mostly because of the posts on DU. People dissed Rahm Emanuel and he turned up with what I thought was a favor for the party. It may be a contrarian streak, but I think if I see some similar comments about Arne Duncan, then it might turn out that I really like him if I got to know more about him.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well, you most certainly feel free. You have every right to like him.
And I have every right to question why in hell he was put in charge of education in this country.

But then, I was only a teacher...so what do I know?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I guess I am more free than I thought I was
Apparently, I am no longer on ignore.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. That could be a temporary thing.
}(

I have little patience lately seeing public education go down the drain with the ones I expected to care not even fighting back.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. What part of "Democrats are supposed to DEFEND working people" do you not get?
Or, for that matter, what part of "Democrats are never supposed to be anti-union"?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. The Democratic Party and the unions have historically been almost one and the same.
The entire progressive movement is one of grass-roots farmers and union members.

Wall Street and big business are not traditionally associated with the Democratic Party.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. That's just ridiculous.
What if the union was infiltrated by a Republican Manchurian candidate?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. Also, I admit in the post that I don't know much about Arne Duncan.
What has he done that is anti-worker? I don't think that going against a particular union on some issues here or there is necessarily completely anti-worker, but if you want to include some things that he's done against unions, that is fine.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:47 PM
Original message
That's a good point. What, specifically has Arne done that is anti-education?
Remember, he is not there to be pro-union.

He is there to be pro-student, pro-education.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. That's a good point. What, specifically has Arne done that is anti-education?
Remember, he is not there to be pro-union.

He is there to be pro-student, pro-education.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
67. What exactly does it mean
to be pro-education? Pro-student? Is it training the poorest and most vulnerable children to be standardized test dummies for corporate statisticians? Is it pimping the privatization of public K-12 schools for the wealthiest people in America, people largely culpable for the conditions they aim to remedy for profit, people who would never send their own children to the kind of schools that now exist because of their own self-interests, people who hire stooges like Arne to subjugate the incubator of democracy to the brave new world of corporate oligarchy? You really don't know much about this topic. Do you?
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
81. Thank you
for pointing that out. One wonders if 'Mendacious' might be a better moniker than 'Msanthrope' for that Duer...
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. right on mad..................
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. what do you mean by "a favor to the party"?
It's not as if ONLY Rahm could have got those watered-down bill passed, OR that he could only have done it by dissing the people who did most of the work involved in actually ELECTING the administration.

But then, you ALWAYS prefer Democrats who diss activists. Why you do, when such people aren't any more effective than those who treat activists and their principles with respect, is a bonafide mystery.

It's not as if activists and the Left ever did anything to actually DESERVE your and Rahm's contempt.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
21. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. So, if someone told you not to jump off the bridge, you would? n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
33. I'll take Rod Paige back in a heartbeat.
I'd rather be called a terrorist than what Arne is doing to us teachers.
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Keith Bee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. K&R'd
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. 'Mama, don't let your child grow up to be a teacher'
is the idea
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. That's just about the truth.
:hi:
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Pretty much, yeah.
A person would need to be either insanely rich or just plain insane to be a teacher these days.

Not just low pay and benefits, but a steaming heap of disrespect to go along with it.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
16. teachers and their union DO bear some (not all ) of the responsibility.
To ignore that is to be very disingenuous.

But du'ers never ever ever want to acknowledge that elephant.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. In what ways, specifically?
Do tell. We're all awaiting your enlightened knowledge with bated breath.

By the way, are you a teacher?
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Why, he read that on the internets,
on a site that rush told him about.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
44. Really, Joe?
Let's look at that allegation, shall we?

A seminal study of public education in the US (The Coleman Report, 1966) substantiated that the strongest predictors of academic achievement are a student's family and peers. Yet, instead of motivating educators to explore ways to capitalize on these important predictors, this study was "widely interpreted as saying that schools {do} not matter." Our system of public education--and the teachers who carry the responsibility of EDUCATING our children--have gotten short shrift ever since. To whit:

Research repeatedly demonstrates that standardized tests do not correlate with knowledge of core subjects. The vast majority of teachers will tell you that standardized testing is a stultifying, ineffective 'barometer' of how much our children have learned, proven by contemporary research to have absolutely no correlation with academic skills. Yet, federal funding is inexorably tied to standardized assessments, so schools persist in subjecting all students to expensive standardized tests, which means teachers are compelled to "teach to the test" (and strongly discouraged from helping students hone their critical thinking skills).

Do these tests measure academic achievement? The most current comparative assessment of the knowledge and skills of 15-year-olds in 70 countries around the world (the OECD PISA report) ranked the United States 14th out of 34 OECD countries for reading skills, 17th for science, and a below-average 25th for mathematics. Among industrialized nations, the United States is just NINE away from the bottom in math! Clearly, our much vaunted standardized tests are not accurate measures of our children's academic success.

Although funding and standardized testing are key issues, we should also consider:

--poverty, which affects a significant percentage of our youth, depriving them of adequate food and other essential resources, and saddling them with uncertainty, anxiety, and a host of other mentally overwhelming coping strategies.

--partisan politics and religiosity, which have motivated a growing number of public schools to solicit 'revised' textbooks, so that students are exposed to the 'appropriate' historical or religious perspective.

--the NCLB legislation (dressed up now as 'Race to the Top'), which has resulted in the dumbing down of our schools' curricula so that schools can 'mainstream' ESL and mentally challenged students (and, again, the inordinate focus on those ubiquitous standardized tests that virtually every educator derogates).

--illiteracy among 40% (or more) of our nation's adult population, meaning that a significant number of our students get no help with their homework at home, or--worse--get to hear an adult caregiver ridicule academia in general.

--exponential times, which means that life-altering events happen with machine-gun rapidity.

While you are considering all of these issues, consider this:

WHERE ARE THE VOICES OF OUR CHILDREN?!?

Our education reform du jour perpetuates our species' tendency to disrespect children. We 'adults' project our perceptions and our 'solutions' onto our children, without once soliciting input from them. Worse than that, we dissemble to our children about the global economic catastrophe that is changing our entire planet AND about the very real threat of global climate change. In short, we are not now--nor have we ever been--a child-centric society.

Joe, when you persist in assigning blame for our pathetic system of public education on 'bad' teachers, you are drinking the corporatists' kool-aid. That teachers run the gamut from very bad to very good is inarguable--we see the same range of skills in EVERY population of workers in the workforce. AND, as with any other industry, public education has established protocols for getting rid of 'bad' teachers, despite whatever propaganda you might have heard from Michelle Rhee or any of Arne's other corporatist shills.

Sigh...

I often have to remind myself to really SEE the forest and not the trees, because the historic events unfolding even as I type this are often painful and frightening. Our species is facing an evolutionary fork in the road, and it doesn't surprise me that so many of us are in denial, or manifesting some dystopic coping strategy.

Public education in the US doesn't have to be ineffective, Joe. Consider Finland. Finland has strong unions for teachers. In 1970, Finland passed legislation that required all their teachers above the kindergarten level to hold master's degrees. Finland's teachers are held in high regard by students AND their parents. According to assessments by internationally recognized and well-regarded entities (PISA and OECD), Finland's students have the highest math and science literacy on the planet. Surely, we could achieve a comparable--or higher--level of academic achievement for our children!

Recognizing that adequate funding, well-trained and supported teachers, and involved parents are essential to a well-educated population is a no-brainer, Joe. However, witnessing our nation's continued corporate assault on teachers and public education without a whisper of protest constitutes willful ignorance.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
20. Arne Duncan and Obama oppose teachers' unions.
That's why Obama has not gone to Wisconsin. He is not a labor union supporter, not really, not in his heart.

He is not a real Democrat in my view.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
23. duncan built the chicago model on corruption and union busting
and now he is doing the same nation wide.

obama is no friend of the teachers and unions in general. he has his corporate funding for his reelection in 2012.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
24. It is in the interest of wealthy dems to support the status quo,
not all do but we see that Mr. Duncan (and Mr. Obama for that matter) are very clearly not concerned about unions or labor at all for that matter.

And before I get a zillion "the unions support Mr. Obama" responses, you know they only support them because the republicans are no better. Your choice - quick kill or slower, softer kill.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
27. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. +1
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Well according to some here Obama needs to stay out of it,
because Fox news might say bad things about him.

The man is weak and will be a one-termer.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Wish he would stay out of his attacks on teacher unions.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
50. I teach. He has lost my support.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. If it had only been this one thing that he was so wrong about
I might could have stuck it out. But his use of arne duncan as his education point man is indicative of almost all areas of his administration. He constantly relies on the advice and service of people with horrible ideas and motives. Some here argue that Obama doesn't listen to his advisers, that he charts his own way. If that is so, God help us for electing the first republican Democrat for president. It is more calming to just imagine that he is an occasionally eloquent speaker with no real idea of how to do the job for which he campaigned.
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callous taoboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
63. After Bush, you could have sold me on an inanimate carbon rod for president.
So I really, really wanted to believe Obama, whose speech at the 2004 Dem convention moved me more than any speech in recent history. I believed him on the campaign trail when he seemed to see that teachers were facing a losing game by having our reputations as educators staked to one raw test score.

Arne, and Rhee, are two of the most wrong-headed people ever to speak out on education.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. My gripe is the opportunity thrown away.
After bush, we could have done so much.

There was so much good will for the new president from the millions that elected him. But he wouldn't settle for that. He wanted the love of the ones who didn't vote for him, that would never vote for him.

It's like high school where the young girl only wants the asshole that will never like her. She will dump on all the boys that would give her anything just to court the pleasure of the brooding jack ass. This administration has dumped on the rabid liberals and excited progressives that put him in office so that he could get people like boener to love him and tell him is is great.

It is one huge personality flaw.

That and his inability to identify advisers worth listening to.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Good post.
And true.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
29. Sad K&R. //nt
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
31. Amen! K&R!!
Arne needs to GO!!!
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golddigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
41. sure, but 1000 radio stations are saying a lot worse all day
and have been for the last 20 years.

duncan is wrong for the job but....
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Sabriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
42. With education "friends" like Duncan and Obama, who needs enemies?
They offer a democratic hand of friendship while their republican hand stabs teachers in the back.

All I can say is that I'm actually glad Duncan was never a teacher, because that would just be too, too much to take.

They could both (sort of) redeem themselves if they'd actually come out with a statement in support of teachers and unions.
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
45. Agreed. To be fair, teachers were beseiged under bush. Obama
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 12:01 PM by montanto
gave us the Trojan horse. We can't say we didn't get our pony!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. No, not really. Teachers were not attacked like this under the Bush administration.
Not even close. Same policies, different attitude.
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. I'll speak for myself then.
I felt besieged by the bush policies. I was under attack by the bush policies. I felt that when bush went a way, the attack would go away too. I felt that the vote for Obama was part of that "going." As it turns out, my vote for Obama was a vote for the Trojan horse. But I already felt under attack by bush and his policies.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. You are right about Bush policies.
It is just that most people were not aware then. I worried about Obama's education policies when he was a candidate, but the options were narrowed by that time.

Still, even though I knew he was for charters, I never expected there to be the full onslaught.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
46. Responsibility also goes to the person who gave him the job.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
49. None of what you quoted is anti-union.
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 12:56 PM by msanthrope
Do you have anything that indicates that Arne Duncan does not support collective bargaining?

You know, anything on point?

A direct quote on collective baragining?

Because your OP conflates Race to the Top standards commentary with collective bargaining. If you were my student, I would give you a 'D' and tell you that if you make a direct charge against someone--i.e., you claim "X" is aginst something, then provide DIRECT quotes on the subject....

So where is the direct quote about Arne and collective bargaining?????


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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Also, a lot of skilled trade unions have programs to promote a certain quality of workmanship.
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 01:26 PM by LoZoccolo
They will have things like apprenticeship and journeyman programs to train their workers to a certain standard, and that standard is what they bring to the bargaining table. I also remember when I was a union retail worker, that it was the union that would warn employees not to do things like sell alcohol to minors, promoting certain ethical standards. The protestations here with these teachers' unions seem to surround them being held accountable to certain standards. If they think the ones that the school boards and legislators are proposing are unfair, they should maybe try to propose their own fairer (and possibly in some ways, higher) standard so they can use it to bargain. They might also gain more public support, especially amongst parents.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. You are saying teachers do not hold themselves to high standards?
That we fight being held accountable?

Just clarifying.

Because that is the very most basic right wing talking point, and I see our own party leaders are using it.

That is exactly what I was talking about, that this admin is talking down teachers and causing a lack of respect.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Why don't you embarass all of us by pointing out the standard?
Edited on Fri Feb-25-11 01:40 PM by LoZoccolo
Let's see it. People will know that I'm wrong if you can point to it and I've said there there is no standard.

You had previously pointed out that it is humiliating that teachers have to take standardized tests, and that information about student performance under particular teachers should not be made public. If those are not fair standards, which fair standards do teachers hold themselves to? Are they administered by someone other than onesself?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Students take the standardized tests. Not the teachers.
You seem very confused about what I have said in the past.

I suggest you look it up.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I may be confused about that point. What would you like to say about the other one?
What standards do teachers hold themselves to? Do the unions enforce one?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Here's the FL Code of Conduct for teachers.
http://www.fldoe.org/edstandards/pdfs/ethics.pdf

You can look up the other states.

I said it was temporary. It was. Enough.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Was I put on ignore for the questions that I asked here?
Is the Florida Department of Education a government body? If so, aren't the standards imposed by the government and not the teachers' union? Are there any standards imposed by the teachers union? Have they proposed their own which they deem fairer than metrics of class performance?
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
77. lol
You're doing fine all by yourself, LoZoccolo, without adjuring madfloridian to embarrass you further. I'd like to see you undertake to achieve certification, AND devote significant time to completing the myriad Continuing Education workshops required of teachers both during the school year and throughout the summer months. As you apparently have no clue what standards teachers are required to meet, it would behoove you to do a little research before you indulge in sarcastic or bombastic posts.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. I think teachers are like everone else--self-policing doesn't work.
Would you like lawyers and doctors to self-police?

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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I recall my grandfather's union, Carpenter and Joiners,
actively promoting levels of competency.

They took the initiative, and made sure that the standards were high.

I think standards of competency SHOULD come from the unions, first. When they don't, or they are not enforced, then you allow others to set the pace for your own profession.

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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #49
76. hmph!
Arne Duncan's thinly veiled disdain for teachers' unions is well documented. Perhaps madfloridian expects DUers to be familiar with her myriad journal entries addressing (AND documenting) Mr. Duncan's assault on teachers and teachers' unions.

Obama's lackluster 'support' of the Madison activists has provoked enough of a negative reaction from Democrats to motivate him to throw an even bigger support bone to the brave protestors fighting for their collective bargaining rights. Of course, the Republicans are spinning ALL of his actions--or perceived inaction--to support their anti-Obama screeds.

BTW, if YOU were my student, I'd give you a 'F' and encourage you to check your spelling and improve your grammar.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Good thing I can't see...
the post you responded to so powerfully. But I give you a good grade on your response.

Yes, Arne has little respect for unions. A day or so ago he had a conference to get labor and education management to work together...unions are to collaborate with management.

I can just see that working so well now in all the states with teabagger governors, can't you?

It's almost a joke to have a conference like that in such conditions. And our union leaders let too much slide by trying to be cooperative.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Well,
you already know that I am grateful beyond words for your continued advocacy for teachers. I remain astonished at the number of DUers who are either ignorant of what's happening or rigidly supportive of Obama, no matter how much he betrays us.

BTW, I am pleased to report my continued success helping students of all ages understand algebra and trig. Witnessing that 'aha' moment when a student 'gets' what I'm teaching is absolutely what it's all about!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. I loved the aha moments in teaching. Made it all worthwhile.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
62. WP points out many of the same issues with this admin's education policies
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/race-to-the-top/the-irony-of-obamas-help-for-w.html

"The administration has squeezed unions into accepting assessment schemes that link student standardized test scores to a varying but significant percentage of a teacher’s pay -- even though research shows that outside influences play at least as much a role in how a student does on a test as a teacher. Also ignored: Research showing the unreliability of systems that use scores to evaluate how much “value” a teacher has brought to a student.

What Obama’s policies have not done to any serious degree is provide support so that teachers are properly trained and developed, and so that teacher assessments fairly evaluate whether a teacher belongs in a classroom.

The popular perception of unions is that they have flat-out fought the administration at every turn. Not true. Local unions have in fact worked with management around the country to experiment with such “value-added” systems in an effort to cooperate with management and to avoid being seen as opposing modern reform.

Such cooperation was praised by Education Secretary Arne Duncan at a conference he convened in Denver to showcase cooperation between teachers unions and management in districts around the country. Why anyone thinks it is a positive for local unions to cooperate on an assessment model shown to have serious flaws is a mystery to me.

If Obama can help teachers unions keep their collective bargaining rights from disappearing under Republican assault, good for him and them. That doesn’t eliminate the harm his policies have done already to teachers and their profession."

Yes, much harm has already been done.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
64. Remember the idea is to privatize and corporatize public education.
nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. And they are attacking teachers and public education to make that possible.
It has escalated the last two years. That's a crying shame.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
68. We're on our own folks.
Expect no help from either national party. We don't need them anyway.
They need us, especially the Democrats, who take the support of the working class for granted and hold it in contempt. They will stop taking us for granted when we stop supporting them. Then we will be able to take them for granted. We should organize at the state and local level. Forget the national parties. They work for Wall Street, and what's good for Wall Street is bad for us.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
69. Recommend
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
74. What is the NEA and AFT doing about Arne?
Are they putting pressure on congressional members and the President to get rid of him?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #74
82. They are falling for his "collaboration" theme...
which is the newest thing he is doing. He makes it sound like labor and management cooperate, but what it really means overall is that they expect labor to give in.

The union leaders have given away too much.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
75. K&R....Read it all...no words to describe the stuff that's going down..n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
83. The saddest part...
is that there is no loud Democratic voice speaking out for us. Like a little whimper now and then.
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