Why would a government union job be less acceptable to some, than a regular union job?

[CrispyQ]

Why does this make a difference?

I posted on my Facebook page that I stand behind the Wisconsin protesters because I was a union member & my good paying union job put me through college. Someone posted back, "But was it a government union job?"

Why would that matter? What the hell is with all the government haters in this country? What do they think made this country so unique & great? I'm at a loss how to respond to this guy & still be polite.

[FreakinDJ]

1. They get paid LESS - in Ca almost 30% less

but they get better benefits

[wiggs]

2. I don't get it either...and I've been in a day long running email conversation

with a winger. It has to do with holding taxpayers hostage during a strike when at the same it is the taxpayers who pay their salaries. It also has to do with elected officials giving in to strikers because of political pressure and to gain more union voters...having trouble representing both the workers and the taxpayers.

Like I said, I don't get it.

[Curmudgeoness]

3. All of the haters I hear on talk radio have a hard-on about

the public union workers taking "their" tax dollars. They seem to think that if you are paid with tax dollars, you don't deserve to be paid well.

At least, that is the argument. :shrug:

[RedCloud]

4. You mean an "amoeba-on"!

[LiberalFighter]

5. There isn't enough blood to help their brain or penis function properly.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. So you are saying if one is working, the other isn't?

That explains it.

[LiberalFighter]

14. Nooo... If there isn't enough blood in their brain or their penis.

Then neither would work.

[sad sally]

21. Funny how some are never concerned about the huge tax breaks

governors, cities and locals give corporations to come into an area. Grab up good land, use the resources, leave in a heartbeat when there's cheaper labor somewhere else. No concern about those (lost) tax dollars!

[Curmudgeoness]

25. This is only one of hundreds of places to look for problems.

Here in the NE, we give way too many tax breaks to companies who promise jobs, and never deliver. And they are never held accountable when the break the promise and then move when the tax break expires. And we all know who has to pay the taxes that these companies are not paying---it is the individual tax payer, you and me and all the people who did not get those promised jobs.

And so they blame public sector employees for high taxes.

Damn it.

[Dappleganger]

23. Well if it's good enough for Xe...

bet they think THAT's ok.

[arbusto_baboso]

27. Yeah, see here's the thing about that. As a civil servant MY OWN tax dollars also pay my salary.

When I mention that fact to rabid teabaggers, they vapor lock, as they have no comeback.

[Curmudgeoness]

30. LOL, yep, few of us pay our own salaries. I am surprised

that they don't throw back at you that you can afford it since you make so much money. We are lucky they aren't that bright!

[Jimbo S]

7. 1) Lack of accountability

Public employees aren't held to the same work standard as private sector employees. More difficult to terminate a public vs. private employee(?) That's how I see it from my POV. If I'm wrong, feel free to show me.

2) Job security - Public employees are rarely laid off. Especially given the current economic situation where private sector workers are vulnerable.

3) Perceived higher compensation - people will cherry pick benefits received and say "no fair, he/she has it better than me" without looking at the entire compensation package.

[arbusto_baboso]

28. 1) Bullshit.

2) COmplete Bullshit.

3) Utter Bullshit.

Any questions?

[Johonny]

8. there is a sense of ownership

a lot of people feel like they are paying their salary so they're the owners in the case of government employees. So they side with the owner side instead of the labor when it comes to fights with public employee unions. Thus in some ways they are a softer target than private employee unions. Which is of course why Republicans have been so happy to go after them. It's a way to split the middle class against each other. Republicans love class warfare so long as it is the middle class and poor at each other rather than noticing the rich making out like bandits as always.

[xmas74]

15. I would believe this.

I worked in a state government position in the nineties and was a member of AFSCME. We fought nonstop for collective bargaining and I remember hearing from others that we didn't deserve it. Those same people always respected private sector unions and wouldn't dream of crossing a picket line but were more than happy to tell me how as a govt employee I didn't deserve what I had.

Sometimes the public feels as if they own you.

[CrispyQ]

17. I think this is an accurate assessment of the thought process.

It makes me think that these people would make awful bosses, begrudging their employees decent pay & benefits.

I'm a union kid. After my union job, I worked as a corporate cube rat for years. Last year I started my own business. I find the mindset of the business people I network with to be very . . . republican.

Today one of these networking contacts emailed me & told me my Facebook post supporting unions would hurt my business. In the past I've wondered why a business would post signs indicating some belief or other that may put off some customers. But now, I understand. I cannot fully disconnect my private beliefs from my business persona. If someone doesn't want to do business with me because I support unions, that's fine. There are plenty of others like me who DO support unions.

[Little Star]

19. What makes them so sure it won't hurt...

them for being against unions? It's time we started to make non-union shops pay for their greed! Boycott the bastids!

I would challenge them to advertise that they are against unions and see how that works out for them. Or maybe they are cowards who will not take a stand for what they believe in?

[Aerows]

9. From the people I've seen

they seem to think that because taxpayers pay their salaries, that taxpayers should be able to dictate who they vote for and donate to. It makes no sense, but they seem to think that public servants shouldn't have a say in government, unless of course, they vote Republican.

[robinlynne]

10. They are republicans.

[Kat45]

11. They think the govt workers are paid with their hard-earned tax dollars

And THEY don't get all the great stuff (wages, benefits, etc.) that they perceive the public employees getting. So why should their hard-earned dollars be used to pay for these other people to get what they don't get.

[mrmpa]

12. Stop trying to be polite, tell him to fuck off & leave it at that. That's

one of the problems, trying to be nice & not hurting anyone's feelings. Screw that, call it the way it is. If they don't get it, there's no reason to continue with them.

[Curmudgeoness]

26. I don't agree. That makes us as bad as they are.

They don't want to be rational, they don't want to deal with facts, they only want to demean us. Well, I don't think that we make any points by just flipping people off. Imagine that this FB discussion is being followed by several other people, and many of those people are not sure how they stand on this issue. If you let it degenerate, you will lose all of those followers. But if you make a good and rational argument, there many be many others who see the light.

We really have to keep our heads here.

[killbotfactory]

13. Public workers shouldn't be subject to the irresponsible whims of the populace

Just like private workers shouldn't be subject to the irresponsible whims of the owners. Especially since the owners of the private sector have a huge amount of control over the public sector.

Whether private or public, workers deserve a fair compensation for their efforts, and they can trust neither institution to protect their interests.

[MicaelS]

16. From what I've read, and the conservatives I've spoken to

Believe, deep down, they believe NO government workers, at any level should be allowed to unionize. That is it in a nutshell. The attitude is government at any level rarely ever completely ends a program or service, once it's created, and government workers have much stronger protection against getting laid off because of all the government regulations. Those two combined is all they should need, no union.

Ask him straight out, "Should government employees at any level be allowed to unionize?" If he says, no, ask "Why?" See what answers you get.

[Yavin4]

18. Americans Hate The Person With 2 Pieces of Bread

Even when they have 3 pieces of bread because that person with the 2 pieces got it through their taxes.

However, they are more than comfortable with the person with a billion pieces of bread.

[ljm2002]

20. It's ginned up by the Republicans / Koch Bros...

...as part of the "hate the government" and "hate the Democrats" policy. The upside of attacking public workers' unions is this: the public sector is the most unionized work force in the country, at about 30% vs. the 13% (maybe less, that might be overall) in the private sector. So if they bust the public unions, they have a huge victory electorally, since unions and especially public sector unions have been a driving force in getting out the vote for Democrats across the nation.

Make no mistake, this is engineered, and the people as usual are falling for it. They play on resentments, they make it look like the public sector union workers are making out like bandits, and thus they get people outraged over it. But the real goal is to bust those unions, and to give Republicans an edge in the election process. That is why there was such hysteria about ACORN -- because that organization was good at registering voters, and most of them were Democratic voters.

They are focused and committed and they're playing to win. And for them it is definitely a game of "Winner takes ALL".

[CrispyQ]

22. When will Americans wake up to the fact that the owner class is pitting us against each other

& stealing everything in sight? When there is nothing left? Even then?

Yesterday, another poster asked, why, when we hear someone is getting good pay & benefits, is our reaction to take it away from them instead of demanding the same for ourselves?

I was a kid during the 60s, so my memory of those times is not as accurate, but it seems we are more bitterly divided now, than I've ever seen in my life.

[du_da]

24. There are a number of issues that

come to play each compounding onto the next one that create this situation for public sector unions.

1. The tax payers are your employers. Therefore like private sector employers the tax payers are thinking to themselves, do I want my employees to have the leverage to force their desires onto the workplace when it might cost me additional revenue.

2. Political activism creates a very questionable dynamic in which one hand the union is representing labor but on the other the union can end up being the king-maker who calls the shots for the politicians. The end result being negotiations where the union is basically negotiating with itself. When accompanied with the previous situation this makes tax payers rather uncomfortable.

3. Unlike private unions, public union negotiations establish obligations on future generations of tax payers. This is very different from a private union negotiation establishing obligations on future business owners because a business owner is a voluntary relationship while being a citizen/tax payer is not. Coupled with the previous two, some people see this as a powder keg waiting to blow up on their childern.

4. As an additional issue not directly linked to the others there is significant concern about unions in government because the government is there to service the populace as a whole not just specific consumers this is particularly complicated because government is a monopoly service provider so in the case of a dispute there is no alternative to turn to. This gives the union too much power in some people's eyes. This differs from the private sector because of GM workers go on strike and GM is not able to produce cars the customer can go across the street to a Ford dealership for example.


This has been brewing for a long time, but the Republicans never had the guts to take on this battle. It is only because of the popularity of the Tea Party and their back to conservative principals regardless what message that the fight is happening. The Republicans always wanted the fight but never thought they had the political cover from the people to do so. The 2010 election changed all that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Becuase it is a GOVERNMENT job

in the up is down world view of these people the government is the problem and a government job is not a real job. If you were somebody you'd work in the private sector, not in a union shop, or better yet RUN your own. You lazy bastard, if you work for them gov'ment types and part of the problem.

That is the cliff's notes.

Oh and thank ST Ronnie for starting that attack. It has not stopped since.