As Hillary Talks About Tolerating Free Expression, Police in Front of Her Brutalize Ray McGovern

[EFerrari]

As Hillary Talks About Tolerating Free Expression, Police in Front of Her Brutalize Ray McGovern for Turning His Back

From Partnership for Civil Justice, and via War Is A Crime

As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave her speech at George Washington University yesterday condemning governments that arrest protestors and do not allow free expression, 71-year-old Ray McGovern was grabbed from the audience in plain view of her by police and an unidentified official in plain clothes, brutalized and left bleeding in jail. She never paused speaking. When Secretary Clinton began her speech, Mr. McGovern remained standing silently in the audience and turned his back. Mr. McGovern, a veteran Army officer who also worked as a C.I.A. analyst for 27 years, was wearing a Veterans for Peace t-shirt.

Blind-sided by security officers who pounced upon him, Mr. McGovern remarked, as he was hauled out the door, "So this is America?" Mr. McGovern is covered with bruises, lacerations and contusions inflicted in the assault.

Mr. McGovern is being represented by the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF). "It is the ultimate definition of lip service that Secretary of State Clinton would be trumpeting the U.S. government's supposed concerns for free speech rights and this man would be simultaneously brutalized and arrested for engaging in a peaceful act of dissent at her speech," stated attorney Mara Verheyden-Hilliard of the PCJF.

Mr. McGovern now works for Tell the Word, a publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in the Adams Morgan neighborhood of Washington, D.C.

http://warisacrime.org/content/hillary-talks-about-tolerating-free-expression-police-front-her-brutalize-ray-mcgovern-turni

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Hillary has never been on our side, either.

Her campaign comments made that clear.

[bigwillq]

17. Very few are.

You're right. Hillary is not. And I don't think Obama is either.

[SammyWinstonJack]

274. Obama is not on our side. He's nothing but lip service.

[populistdriven]

25. this democratic party is so fucking depressing, i miss alan grayson

[Capitalocracy]

138. Not to mention her active support for the military dictatorship in Honduras. nt

[Truth2Tell]

324. She has NEVER been on our side.

It's amazing the number of Americans with liberal views who have been duped into believing that people like Clinton or Biden are somehow on their side. It's really one of the most incredible and effective widespread propaganda delusions of our era. It's a myth that has served the ruling elite very very well.

[malaise]

2. WTF - even Rumsfeld didn't try this

Meanwhile they cheer on Egypt and Iran.

[EFerrari]

12. Ray? The most gentle person in the world?

Cancer survivor? Pacifist?

That Ray McGovern?

:cry:

[malaise]

24. This one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1FTmuhynaw

:cry:

[tblue37]

72. And 71 YEARS OLD! nt

[peacetalksforall]

245. Yes, Ray McGovern - a genuine heart human being. Guess she will be making

some comments about that. Please, Hillary, do the right thing. We're experiencing some rough times - and what a disappointment she is. Show us what you are capable of, Hillary. Show us the law that says you can't turn your back and show us the manual for punishment if you do. You are the lawyer.

[defendandprotect]

283. We need more of Ray McGovern conscience and humanism -- and less of

Hillary's DLC-corporate fascism --

[uppityperson]

276. Didn't try what, continuing a speech while University Police took him out? Another link...

Yes, Rumsfeld and many politicians have continued giving speeches while someone is taken out. I am sorry Ray got hurt, but the way this story is presented is so slanted, so partial, that I am very skeptical as to HOW it is being done.

http://www.wrgwnews.com/2011/02/sec-hillary-clinton-speaks-at-gw.html
"Perhaps the most interesting moment of the event in the Jack Morton Auditorium occurred about five minutes into Clinton's speech. A protestor wearing a shirt which read "Veterans for Peace" had been facing the back of the auditorium, where all the news cameras were, standing silently since Clinton's introduction. Two UPD officers approached the man, asking him to leave twice. The man remained silent and did not respond to the UPD officer's request that he leave or be seated. The UPD officers at this point grabbed him by the arm, pulled him to the ground, and dragged him out of the auditorium. The man remained silent the whole time until just before being pulled through the auditorium doors when he screamed, "This is America?"

The protestor was identified by a freelance cameraman as famous peace activist, and former CIA agent, Ray McGovern though no major media outlets, nor WRGW News, have confirmed this.

GW released the following statement on the incident:

"A man, who is not affiliated with the George Washington University, was arrested Tuesday afternoon by the George Washington University Police Department (GWPD) and has been charged with disorderly conduct after disrupting a speech by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on campus. Shortly after the Secretary began speaking, the man stood up from his seat wearing a shirt with a political message blocking the view of guests and media. When asked by a GWPD officer to leave, the man refused. He was escorted by GWPD out of the building and is in the custody of the Metropolitan Police Department.

[Jakes Progress]

343. Don't use reality.

The Clinton hate is big with many here. They really, really miss the primaries.

I agree that she should have stopped speaking if she saw it. I agree that this is typical of the DLC. Trouble is that it is typical of our class of privilege, including politicians. But it will be spun as needed by either side.

[maryf]

3. k&r nt

[fascisthunter]

4. she's a fraud

[Stanchetalarooni]

251. yes she is

[CLANG]

266. The entire United States of America is a fraud.

We've been seriously "had".

[fascisthunter]

270. congrats Cheesehead!

Always was a fan of Green Bay as a kid. Still am somewhat.

[CLANG]

273. Thank you - from "America's Team".

:toast: :beer:

[florida08]

291. ditto on congrats

Was thrilled for them. Great game

[arctos49]

287. Fraud is a

kind word for what she is. The Clintons are not really different from any of the other sellouts who get into the ring of D.C. power. She referred to the dictator Mubarak as a "close family friend". In other words, as in Honduras, if the brutal ruling elite supports our "interests" then they are just swell.

[formercia]

5. Hillary shows her true colors.

"How dare you disrespect me."

So much for Free Speech. NIMBY

[coalition_unwilling]

54. The blood of 1,000,000+ Iraqis is drip, drip, dripping from her hands - n/t

[Beacool]

67. Again with that meme?

Yeah, she sent them to war. Never mind Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc.

:eyes:

[coalition_unwilling]

73. She voted for it. Q.E.D. - n/t

[Skip Intro]

105. She voted, along with Kerry and others, to give bush the power. Bush sent in the troops. Stop

playing dumb.

[coalition_unwilling]

127. Kerry is equally culpable and showed no sign of re-considering

his decision. Of course Bush sent in the troops. He's the Commander in Chief. Hilary voted for a war of aggression based on easily debunked lies, all b/c she thought it would tarnish her national security cred for her run for Prez. Out, damned spot! Except that spot of 1,000,000+ dead Iraqi civilians won't be gotten rid of easily. But whatever you have to tell yourself.

[Skip Intro]

131. Wrong.

Hillary, and many Senate Dems voted to give bush the power to attack based on bs intel from bush's WH and a promise that this action, voting to give him the power to attack, would be used to strengthen his hand at the UN and to pursue "tough diplomacy." It was NOT a vote to go to war. Taken in context, it just wasn't.

[rhett o rick]

139. Your rationalization is ridiculous. Those with brains and conscience knew Bush was lying.

You telling me she didnt? She made her decision on trusting Bush? An idiot could see he was lying, his mouth was moving. She is no idiot, she knew.
But it doesnt matter, the result of her vote, as with the other turn-coat Democrats, was the killing of hundreds of thousands. The fact that that doesnt bother her is scary.

[Skip Intro]

164. You know, if you're gonna hate her, you're gonna hate her, facts be dammed.

[rhett o rick]

277. The fact is she voted to give Bush the power to go to war. If she didnt think she was doing that,

she should have raised hell at the time. And you seem intent on rationalizing that she was duped. She and the others were afraid to stand up for the principles of the Democratic Party. Blood is on their hands.

[janet118]

186. puhl-leez. . . I heard that excuse back in 2002 . . .

it still doesn't pass the smell test. x(

Byrd, Wellstone, Chaffee = stand up guys

Clinton, Kerry, Edwards = chicken shits

[Skip Intro]

192. Well, the vote was what it was. Read the speeches. Do some research.

The vote, as outlined in the speeches from Dems who voted for it the resolution, was for bush, or "the president," to have the power to strengthen the US' hand in the UN in calling for complete and unfettered inspections. I admire Byrd, Wellstone, and Chaffee. But the resolution was what it was, and it was in the context it was in. Bushco lied. To us, to congress, to the world. But the vote was not a vote to go to war. It just wasn't. And selective amnesia about that fact may be popular, but it was what it was. And what it was is clear in the speeches made by Kerry and Hillary at the time, before casting their votes. If you want to paint it with a broadbrush and ignore those facts, have at it. But it wasn't a vote for war. It just wasn't.

[janet118]

230. I've read or seen all the speeches - please read Sen. Byrd's speech

For those potential presidential candidates I listed, it was all about passing the buck and covering their butts. Kerry's constituents begged and pleaded with him to vote against the resolution, so it wasn't about representing his state. Anyone who didn't realize that Bush & Co. were lying was either naive, dumb or disingenuous.

"We may not always be able to avoid war, particularly if it is thrust upon us, but Congress must not attempt to give away the authority to determine when war is to be declared. We must not allow any president to unleash the dogs of war at his own discretion and for an unlimited period of time. Yet that is what we are being asked to do."
- Sen. Robert C. Byrd, October 2002

[SOS]

264. Inspections were not even mentioned in the text of AUMF

Let's look at the actual law:

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS.

The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the
President to--
(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security
Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq
and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security
Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay,
evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies
with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

There were NO CONDITIONS. The Congress merely "supported the efforts" to enforce UNSC resolutions. It's empty, meaningless rhetoric.

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States
against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.

So who decides whether Iraq is a "continuing threat"? Read on...

(b) Presidential Determination.--In connection with the exercise of
the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President
shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible,
but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make
available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the
President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or
other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately
protect the national security of the United States against the
continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to
enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.

Bush is given 100% sole authority to determine whether the non-existent "efforts" had met with success.
Byrd was right. It was a blank check for Bush to launch a war of aggression on Iraq.

[Ignis]

326. "Bush lied." Who could EVER have predicted that?

I mean, it's not like he lied every time he moved his lips as Governor of Texas or anything.

Hell, anyone who's cracked the cover of Ivins' Shrub knew he was lying. :argh:

[sendero]

208. Your story is not plausible..

.. to even the stupidest American. I knew Bush was hell-bent on going to war, every American with two brain cells to rub together knew Bush was hell-bent on going to war, but Clinton and Kerry didn't know.

BULL FUCKING SHIT.

[Skip Intro]

221. It is what happened.

[Avant Guardian]

261. That story was in the news for at least a year

But you already knew that, right?

[kath]

316. Yep - within a few hours after the WTC fell on Sept 11, 2001 I posted on another board "Now Chimpy

gets his frickin' war".


And I also describe the situation the same way you do - "every American with two brain cells to rub together knew Bush was hell-bent on going to war".
I knew this even before he got into the White House, and knew that the terrorist attacks provided the PERFECT excuse. He was determined to go to Iraq to rescue Daddy's balls.

[sulphurdunn]

257. Everybody else did it too

is not an excuse we accept even from children. Everyone willing to think critically knew that giving Chimpy the authority to wage war was a de facto declaration of war.

[obxhead]

319. Millions of us "less informed" knew the intel was BS as it was

paraded through the news.

You're going to seriously sit here and tell me this connected lawyer couldn't see through the BS? Yeah right. I guess I should go check the sky, pigs must be flying in huge flocks.

[Skip Intro]

169. I was against this bs war from the begining. Watched it unfold from day one.

I don't need to be lectured on the evilness of this attack/invasion/occupation. But, like I said, the fact that bush and his goons lied to congress to get this vote, and ignoring, as you do, the speeches that clearly indicated that this vote was a vote to strengthen the US position at the UN for tough sanctions and tough diplomacy, does not equal any of these Dems voting for war. That wasn't the vote. Sorry, it wasn't.

[BanzaiBonnie]

237. It was very clear that her vote was one...

that was based on trajectory in her bid for the presidency. At least it looked like that to me.

Can I really know what's going on in her mind? Not unless she tells me. But when action and pretty words aren't in alignment, I tend not to believe the words. Hillary has no credibility. Her words are meaningless.

[rhett o rick]

136. How does that reduce her culpability. Bush is crazy, people like her should have tried to stop him.

But no she bowed down and gave the go-ahead to kill tens of thousands of Iraqi children. The fact that Kerry and others also did doesnt make a difference.
The Democrats that bowed down and groveled at the feet of Emperor Bush are more responsible than him. We relied on them to save us. But she and the "others" stabbed us in the back and supported Bush's killing of hundreds of thousands, in our name.

[Skip Intro]

165. The fact that congress was lied to by the bush admin regarding Iraq is no secret.

This vote was called for by the WH to give bush a strong hand in supposed diplomatic efforts. It wasn't a vote to go to war, and Kerry said as much. If you listen to her speech before voting, so did she. It's easy to ignore the nuances here, but in fact, this was not a vote to go to war. It was not. It just wasn't. Of course, this fact doesn't lend itself to the whitewashing of Hillary or Kerry or any number of other Dems who voted to give bush the authority, in the pretext of tough diplomacy and having a strong presence at the UN, of being warmongers. But in reality, that just isn't the way it went down. It just isn't.

[Geoffrey_Lebowski]

176. This ...

I've been saying the same thing for years now ... the pretext Bush presented was that he needed this show of support from Congress so that he'd have success pressuring the UN to allow more inspections, etc.

It was a masterful political play on Cheney/Rove/Rummy's part.

I'm still pissed off about it, but much more at the those RESPONSIBLE, i.e. the actual lying torturing murderous war-criminals we used to call BushCo back in the day.

[Skip Intro]

184. Yes, exactly.

[davidthegnome]

217. You are aware of course...

That she along with many others never read the available documentation before giving out their signature? Barrack Obama was one of the few that did - it's one of the reasons I voted for him. There simply can be no rational excuse for not having done so. For signing documents without reviewing them - documents that sent our Nation to war.

Should they have read the undoubtedly long and ponderous documents? Absolutely, in such times as we were in.

That being said, I'm no longer sure it matters. This war was always about the money - the players behind it who pulled the strings could no doubt have bought and paid for their votes. I don't believe for an instant that our representatives were hoodwinked. If they in ignorance signed documents they did not read - then frankly, ignorance and laziness is no excuse.

I am, of course, referring to the Pre-Iraq war report, which 94 (94!) Senators failed to read. Further reference right here on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x992459

For members of Congress to read the report, they had to go to a secure location on Capitol Hill. The Washington Post reported in 2004 that no more than six senators and a handful of House members were logged as reading the document....

Wow. Just frigging wow eh?

Ignorance is not an excuse - they should have read the damned documents. That being said, I'm not a Clinton hater. At this point, I view nearly every politician with an equal amount of contempt. With only a very few exceptions.

[Skip Intro]

220. Obama did not vote on that resolution, he wasn't a US Senator at the time.

I don't meant to take exception with you, but how was that a reason you voted for him?

Yea, amazing, if true, that that many Senators didn't read the report. I have to wonder why. That being said, the vote to give bush the authority to go to war was not a vote to go to war. And, taken in context of the speeches given before several votes, Hillary's and Kerry's included, it was clear that the vote to give bush that power was done to strengthen the US' position in the UN in a call for free and open inspections of Iraq's weapons programs. It wasn't a vote to go to war.

[davidthegnome]

225. Him reading the documents

Which 94 Senators did not - gave me a higher respect and admiration for the man who became a Presidential hopeful. I vaguely recall his opponents praising him for it during the primary debates.

It wasn't perhaps "supposed to be" a vote to go to war, but that is in the end what it amounted to. Now honestly, what rational explanation can be given for not reading the report? It's not just democrats that didn't read it, John McCain (another Presidential hopeful) didn't see fit to bother either. A vote to give the President the authority to go to war - without having read available documentation as to why we should?

It's a long dead horse now - I'm only kicking it because it's something that still stands out to me as absolutely absurd (and because it relates to the already somewhat off topic debate). That said, this isn't quite on topic, so I should shut up about it. I'd be willing to continue this conversation in PMs if you like.

No offense taken - no disrespect intended.

[coalition_unwilling]

249. It was an authorization to use military force at the president's sole

discretion. True, it was not a Declaration of War as the Constitution calls for. But in authorizing Bush to use military force at his sole discretion, it might just as well have been.

To say that Hilary and Kerry were not voting to authorize war when everyone knew at the time that that was exactly what they and the remainder of the House and Senate were doing is simply pure equivocation on your part to cover their culpability for authorizing the commision of war crimes and international aggression. You and those like you stretch ingenuity to its limits in your attempt to re-write history.

True, Hilary's and Kerry's culpability is not quite as great as Bush and Cheney's. But as many DUers have pointed out on this thread and others, anyone listening and paying close attention knew the invasion was based on lies well before the vote to authorize military action was taken. If we knew it BEFORE THE VOTE, you don't think Kerry and Clinton understood it as well but chose to 'go along to get along'? And let's not forget that little weasel Richard Gebhardt whose Rose Garden Concordat is a day that shall live in infamy and forevermore bring down shame upon this nation and its people.

Edit for clarity and typos

[rhett o rick]

280. Again you are saying that Bush, a well know Republican liar, fooled Congress?

If he had of, they should have raised holy hell to the American public. But no they didnt do that because they thought all the blame would just go to Bush. And you are trying to make them right. The world was all against the war, but HRC was side by side with the republicans.

She and the others that sided with the Little Emperor Bush are all responsible. In a better world they would all be held accountable.

[Name removed]

188. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomp]

206. i live in ny and her vote did NOT "represent" me. nt

[ThomCat]

216. I live in NY City. I saw the towers fall. I knew people in

the towers. She didn't represent me, or us.

Don't go using NY as an excuse. New York State has nothing to do with it.

[xphile]

218. New Yorkers were AGAINST the war.

She did NOT represent New York with that vote. At least she didn't represent the people of New York.

[rhett o rick]

281. Most Democrats were against the war. She supported her friend GWBush. nm

[xphile]

393. True. But the now deleted post using her representation of New York as an excuse

for her odious vote was particularly galling.

[Zhade]

263. Considering that IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11, why exactly would that matter?

NT!

[Le Taz Hot]

202. Who's the dumb one?

Me, little average American person, sitting here in Central California with naught but the ability to read and an internet connection knew the reasons for going into war were lies. There was further evidence back then that the Iraqi invasion was planned right after Bush got into office. Either she was too ill informed to know that and, therefore, incompetent to hold ANY public position or she was afraid that her "no" vote on the IWR would be seen as being "soft on terra" which means she had no compunction against the murder of hundreds of thousands for her political gain. That makes her something else entirely.

Your rhetoric is straight out of the DLC talking points handbook.

[Ignis]

327. Speaking of playing dumb, here's Bush in 9/02, BEFORE the IWR vote:

And, in discussing the threat posed by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Bush said: "After all, this is the guy who tried to kill my dad."

-- CNN @ http://articles.cnn.com/2002-09-27/politics/bush.war.talk_1_homeland-security-senators-from-both-parties-republican-phil-gramm?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

Anyone who didn't see the writing on the wall from Bush's infantile posturing before the IWR vote isn't smart enough to hold public office and represent the interests of the United States.

[girl_interrupted]

113. And there is no blood dripping from Obama's hands?

In Iraq, or Afghanistan or in Pakistan? And let's not forget, it was Obama who voted twice, once in committee and once in the final senate vote to confirm Condi Rice, after Barbara Boxer went after her and tried to stop Rice from being confirmed as Secretary of State. Obama's Pro-War Record: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4643795#4643795

[Capitalocracy]

140. Plenty of blood to go around

No shortage of bloody hands around here.

[coalition_unwilling]

162. I hereby confess and aver that I was totally wrong about Obama. I

took his anti-war speech in 2002 (in the run-up to Shocking and Awful) that he was against the Iraq fiasco. Turns out he was and is just another imperialist, only marginally better than Hilary and her ilk. He will get no $$ and no time from me in 2012 and, should Feingold or some other credible progressive challenge him in the primary, I will be working for that candidate whoever he or she might be. It's safe to say it won't be Hilary, though. Too much blood on her hands. Would that it were Boxer. The nation could do far worse

[hulka38]

379. +1

[Skip Intro]

166. It was also Obama, who, after taking Hillary to task over this vote, conceeded that he had no idea

how he would have voted, had he been there.

[paulk]

297. his "yes" vote on FISA tells you all you need to know

about how he would have voted on the IWR, if he'd been in the Senate at the time.

[frylock]

328. i certainly have no doubts as to how senator obama would've voted

[Beacool]

362. Yep, he said it in 2004 during an interview with Tim Russert.

Furthermore, once in the senate he voted time after time to continue to finance the war.

[piratefish08]

6. say one thing, do another. just another day in DC. nothing to see here.

[Solly Mack]

7. K&R

[Octafish]

8. This is what America has come to.

The State now says it's OK to spill a man's blood for merely turning his back. And not just any man, but one of the wisest men in the nation and a veteran.

What country is this? It's become one where the State matters more than the citizen. That is not the United States of America.

Hillary, the Secret Service, Department of State, and George Washington University owe Mr. McGovern an immediate apology. I hope he sues their asses into the ground.

[Raksha]

29. Even with the most abject apologies in the world, she won't be able to live this down.

[formercia]

248. Amen bro.

Turn your back on the reactionaries at your peril.

[nashville_brook]

9. jeesus.

k an r.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mnemosyne]

11. K&R for more visibility and disgust. n/t

[madrchsod]

13. WOW..this guy is one f`n heavy dude...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

[EFerrari]

39. He's all of that.

:loveya:

[Puregonzo1188]

14. Unbelievable. I had the great privilege of meeting McGovern years ago when

Bush was still president.

I'm at a loss for words at how to describe this.

[kenichol]

15. I fell in love with Ray when I saw "Uncovered: The Truth about Iraq" (war?)

I wish I could let him know how much his activism means to me, how much he has inspired me. Am sick about this.

[mmonk]

102. yep. I have that on DVD.

[Poboy]

16. Ray McGovern is an American hero. -nt

[bigwillq]

18. K and R (nt)

[mmonk]

19. Thanks for posting this.

[Rageneau]

20. Yeah, Hillary is a jack-booted thug -- and, don't forget, she's a racist, too!

It would be nice if someone who could see this incident from HRC's point-of-view -- knowing what she knew and seeing what she saw -- could give us a little honest perspective on this incident. But no, we are TOLD what she thought and how she felt, and we are therefore supposed to hate Hillary because people who hate Hillary want us to hate Hillary.

I like Ray McGovern, but I like and admire Hillary, too, so I think I'll wait until all the facts are in before I accuse Hillary of collusion in roughing him up.

But you others just go right ahead and rush to judgment with Rush and Burton and Newt and all the other Clinton-haters.

[piratefish08]

27. Clinton Hater is such a broad term.

Bill Clinton is an intelligent leader.

Hillary - We Can't Legalize Drugs Because 'There Is Just Too Much Money in It' - Clinton is proving herself to be an idiot or a liar.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/09/942253/-Hillary-Clinton:-too-much-money-in-drugs-to-legalize-them

[EFerrari]

36. That any cabinet officer in this administration, whoever they are,

could allow this to happen is repugnant.

[dorkulon]

WOW.

That is just dumb.

[mod mom]

31. Have you read this post (appointed Neocon Marc Grossman):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=430023&mesg_id=430023
no one used the harsh words you did, but she is NOT on our side.

[piratefish08]

34. just wow. she is definitely not on our side.

[EFerrari]

33. Nope. The OP doesn't say what she thought or what she felt. Fail. n/t

[Agony]

35. Well no one here said that but as mentioned up thread compare the alleged scenario

to when Ray confronted Rumsfeld and Rumsfeld _stopped_ security from throwing him out. Apparently in this case he was standing silently... You don't find anything wrong here? or that we just don't really know what happened? Whatever.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ae6_1188969371

[sabrina 1]

41. I was just going to mention that. I remember when

McGovern confronted Rumsfeld very well. He actually engaged him in a conversation and as you point out, prevented him from being thrown out.

It's a sad day when Rumsfeld looks better than a democrat. She and her husband have been hanging out with the Bush family too much.

Shame on her. She better apologize for this. And he should sue, he had an absolute right to do what he was doing.

[Agony]

65. Ray forgot to SIT DOWN and SHUT UP!

:sarcasm:

Hey! Thanks for the posting you do here!
Cheers,
Agony

[sabrina 1]

170. Thank YOU!

Yes, this reminds me of the guy who turned his back on Bush Sr. once, a long time ago and apparently Sr. never forgave him for it. He was hauled away also airc.

They all belong to some elite club which we do not belong to.

[Enthusiast]

203. Our party has been taken over.

I suppose if we started a new party they would infiltrate and take that one over also.

[coalition_unwilling]

57. The blood of 1,000,000+ Iraqis is drip, drip, dripping from her hands. Out, damned spot! - n/t

[martymar64]

204. This happened right in front of her eyes - she could have told them to stop, but she didn't.

She just didn't care that a 71 year old man was jumped by her thugs for simply and silently expressing his dissent.

Our Egypt/Tunisia/Yemen moment is one day closer because of incidents like this.

[struggle4progress]

308. The GW university police are the Secretary of State's "thugs"?

[martymar64]

363. In this case, yes.

The simple act of dissent is becoming more dangerous.
Luckily they didn't give him the Steve Biko treatment, but I have a feeling its going to happen sooner rather than later.

[Name removed]

207. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

294. How hard is it to stop the speech and say, "Stop brutalizing that US citizen?"

Too hard for HRC, apparently.

[Agony]

21. Ray McGovern should have gotten the Presidential Medal of Freedom instead of

GHWarcriminalBush... Not that that medal means anything anymore. But it would give Ray something to throw back over the WhiteHouse fence to "return" it! Ha Ha! Like a ROCK Ray!


Amazing how "small" a person the SOS is when compared to someone like Mr. McGovern.

[stillwaiting]

22. I feel sick.

Ray is a true American role model.

Hillary is (better left unsaid).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Obviously, McGovern is an enemy of the state and a troublemaker. K&R

[cynatnite]

26. Are there other sources for this story? n/t

[EFerrari]

32. You mean, besides Ray? His pictures are up at the link. n/t

[cynatnite]

37. Yes. I would like to know if there are other reports besides this ONE...

Having more than one source gives more credibility. I don't believe it's too much to ask.

Besides, it's always easier to believe the worst about someone that's not liked to begin with.

[EFerrari]

38. Ray McGovern and David Swanson have never lied to me.

If you find a different account, I hope you post it in this thread.

[cynatnite]

45. If Ray McGovern had been brutalized in front of Hillary as is being asserted...

I believe there would be more than this one account.

I'm of the opinion that he was roughed up outside of her presence.

[EFerrari]

44. Here's a link to some video David Swanson just tweeted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Vy8fFnz18

The thing is, it doesn't make me happy or anything to show this. It makes me sad beyond expression.

[cynatnite]

47. He was pulled out of there, but not brutalized in front of her....

That is a far different picture than what is being asserted here.

[EFerrari]

49. Whatever gets you through the night.

[cynatnite]

51. So, is it easier for you to think he was "brutalized" in front of her...

because you don't like her?

Facts get me through the night and the assertions being made that Ray McGovern was "brutalized" in front of Hillary Clinton are NOT there despite your attempts to say so.

I should mention that we DO NOT KNOW what happened outside of the camera's view. That is pure speculation.

[EFerrari]

52. I hope you don't mind if I believe my lying eyes and not your rationalizations. Thanks. n/t

[Beacool]

55. "Your lying eyes" are failing you.

Mr. McGovern was taken away by campus police during her speech, but he was not beaten in front of her.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

78. Did you watch the video? Would you like to be "taken away"

in that manner?

No, there's not a thing wrong with my eyes.

[Marr]

89. Who needs information?

[Mojeoux]

141. I don't get it, remember "don't taze me dude?"

But the summer of '09, every town hall meeting the "grass roots" anti-health-care goons got to disrupt and heckle as loud as they wanted.

[Enthusiast]

205. The truth is right in front

of our eyes if we are willing to look. Some 'free speech' is promoted by the powers and some is attacked. It all depends on if it interferes with the interests of the powers.

TV coverage was also stepped up on disruptive town hall meetings to bolster the idea that proposed changes to health care were bad. I figure their goal was to prevent a public option. This nation is so screwn.

[martymar64]

210. Just jumped by armed thugs and dragged off in front of her, for what? Turning his back on her.

His question is correct.

This is America?

This brings our Egypt moment one day closer.

[mmonk]

120. We brutalize people behind closed doors. We don't appear

as much as the hypocrite nation we are when we do it that way.

[kas125]

128. Whether or not he was "brutalized" in front of her doesn't

really matter. He was accosted and pulled out of there by thugs when he was standing there silently, not interrupting, not screaming, not doing anything but standing there, while she was yammering about the government in Egypt shutting down peaceful protest. She's a hypocrite, it's plain as day in the videos - she allows the very thing she's speaking against to happen as she's speaking.

[uppityperson]

56. You don't have to exaggerate as what happened to him is bad enough in itself.

I'd like to see what happened before this, why they dragged him out. I am not saying he deserved this or that he wasn't hurt, but would like to know more about why.

[EFerrari]

79. Could you please point out any exaggeration on my part?

Thanks.

[uppityperson]

161. It seems they brutalized him not "in front of her", at least not in the video

They manhandled him, but I didn't see "Police in Front of Her Brutalize Ray McGovern". They manhandled him on the video, he shows bruises in his pictures, but I didn't see "Police in Front of Her Brutalize Ray McGovern" on the video.

However, elsewhere in this topic you have replied to another poster who also noticed this. If you wish to reply snidely to me, don't expect a reply back.

Call them on this, the youtube video is shameful, but don't exaggerate as it isn't necessary, what they are doing, what he ended up looking like, is bad enough.

Thanks for posting this for us to see. Has Clinton made any public response?

[snooper2]

299. You do know, if you blow on somebody who's over 65 they get a bruise

right?

When I saw the word "brutalized"...I imagined something totally different

[rhett o rick]

142. And when she found out he was brutalized she was furious. Oh no, that is in another universe where

she is a real Democrat and not a new Democrat (read oligarch).

[sufrommich]

153. Where is the proof that he was brutalized by the police?

He has bruises on his arm from being grabbed by the police because he refused to leave. Is that the extent of it or did they beat him as he's claiming. Was he left "bleeding in a jail cell"?Sorry, this sounds like crying wolf to make a point to me.

[rhett o rick]

155. Do you honestly think it matters? Do you think she gives a shit about the Lower Class?

I dont. It's about money and power.

[sufrommich]

158. lol. So it doesn't matter if it's a true report, because it paints

Clinton as your bad guy. Talk about seeing what one wants to see.

[rhett o rick]

163. Clinton is a bad guy. She is not on the side of the Lower Class. Thanks to her and her husband

and the other Republican presidents, the country is screwed.

[Enthusiast]

209. I trust Mr. McGovern to

give us an accurate report.

[uppityperson]

376. Does it matter if he was "brutalized" or not? Well, yes, it does matter. It is really odd that to so

many here it doesn't seem to matter.

[Ignis]

295. Do you doubt all cases of police brutality, or just this one?

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

378. I doubt many cases of people saying "brutality". I see Ray getting arrested. I see some bruises

on his arms which may have come from being hauled out of the speech, especially since he has such thin fragile skin on his arms. That is what I see. I don't see beaten. I don't see bloody. I don't see him in chains. I don't see him brutalized.

I see the campus police forcing him out of the speech.

I doubt many cases where people say "brutality" unless I see proof of it and in this case, I don't.

[Ignis]

382. OK, so "brutality" is 110%. Where does "forcing him" sit on the scale?

:shrug:

I can't believe that one of the adults in the room couldn't have handled this situation better. All those people in suits paid nice salaries to think about how every single little action in the political sphere will be perceived out of context, over-analyzed, and dissected endlessly on cable news--and yet no one thought to ask security to let the vet continue his silent, peaceful protest, rather than dragging him bodily out of the room?

C'mon. :eyes:

[polmaven]

226. Or maybe

that is in another universe where the press actually reports the *full* story. We have no idea what she said or did after she left the podium and learned what happened out of her sight. At least those of us who are not certified psychics don't know.

[rurallib]

246. just curious do you have a link? I see nothing that says she was furious

at any time.

[rhett o rick]

275. My point exactly. Please reread my post. nm

[Capitalocracy]

145. I hope no one would accuse you of being happy about this. nt

[Raksha]

28. The hypocrisy is just overwhelming.

Our government has become a caricature of itself.

[robertpaulsen]

30. Hillary Clinton is really on a roll this week.

Add this to her appointing treasonous bastard http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=marc_grossman">Marc Grossman as a http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/02/16/obama-administration%E2%80%99s-neocon-easter/">"special envoy" to Afghanistan and Pakistan and my disdain for the Secretary of State has reached a new high.

[starroute]

40. And she was the one who sent Frank Wisner to Egypt

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/07/us-envoy-frank-wisner/

Over the weekend, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s hand-picked envoy to Egypt, former U.S. diplomat Frank Wisner, caused a diplomatic row when he suggested at the Munich Security Conference that embattled Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak “must stay in office in order to steer changes through.” Wisner’s comments were quickly rebuked by the Obama administration, which said that he was speaking as a private citizen and not as a diplomatic envoy.

[sabrina 1]

42. Wow, Marc Grossman??

She really is gone all the way over to the dark side.

[readmoreoften]

43. The whole "if you're not for Barack you're an agent for Hillary" was the worse false dilemma I've

ever seen.

Let me get this straight: if we weren't for a guy who used leftist imagery to dupe the masses into believing he was a pro-labor anti-war candidate, then we're for the weak-labor, pro-war candidate? It all boiled down to, did we want to be condescended and lied to or straight up fucked over.

(I say this as someone whose union appealed to Clinton during a strike when she was a NY Senator.... to basically no effect.)

[fadedrose]

48. I never did like her

My instincts about her were all negative. Don't care much for the President of the World either.

[FlyByNight]

46. The beatings will continue...

...until morale improves.

Freedom of speech, apparently, is only for those who can afford it: the Koch brothers, Chamber of Commerce, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and well-placed government mouthpieces/officials, etc.

The US government has long passed being embarrassed by its hypocrisy anymore. The rot is thorough.

:puke:

[EFerrari]

50. This is the limit for me.

I couldn't be more broke but I will go find a notary tomorrow and get that letter off.

And our owners can go embrace themselves.

[stockholmer]

198. well said, and oh, btw, how many fingers am I holding up, Winston?

:spank:

[Beacool]

53. This is what was reported by the GW student paper

Clinton’s speech was punctuated once at the beginning when an unidentified elderly man wearing a “Veterans for Peace” T-shirt stood up in the middle of the crowd to turn his back on her, standing silently and staring at the back of the auditorium for several minutes. After not responding when a security officer asked him to sit down, two officers dragged him shouting out of the auditorium.

http://blogs.gwhatchet.com/newsroom/2011/02/15/clinton-talks-egypt-iran-in-speech-about-internet-freedom/?hp


Perhaps the most interesting moment of the event in the Jack Morton Auditorium occurred about five minutes into Clinton's speech. A protestor wearing a shirt which read "Veterans for Peace" had been facing the back of the auditorium, where all the news cameras were, standing silently since Clinton's introduction. Two UPD officers approached the man, asking him to leave twice. The man remained silent and did not respond to the UPD officer's request that he leave or be seated. The UPD officers at this point grabbed him by the arm, pulled him to the ground, and dragged him out of the auditorium. The man remained silent the whole time until just before being pulled through the auditorium doors when he screamed, "This is America?"

The protestor was identified by a freelance cameraman as famous peace activist, and former CIA agent, Ray McGovern though no major media outlets, nor WRGW News, have confirmed this.

GW released the following statement on the incident:

"A man, who is not affiliated with the George Washington University, was arrested Tuesday afternoon by the George Washington University Police Department (GWPD) and has been charged with disorderly conduct after disrupting a speech by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on campus. Shortly after the Secretary began speaking, the man stood up from his seat wearing a shirt with a political message blocking the view of guests and media. When asked by a GWPD officer to leave, the man refused. He was escorted by GWPD out of the building and is in the custody of the Metropolitan Police Department."

http://www.wrgwnews.com/2011/02/sec-hillary-clinton-speaks-at-gw.html

[cynatnite]

58. A far different and more unbiased accounting of what happened...

Thank you for the links.

[Beacool]

64. I don't think that Mr. McGovern should have been dragged from the auditorium.

The campus police appear to have overreacted. On the other hand, to state that he was "brutalized" in front of Hillary is not accurate.

[jtuck004]

174. "pulled him to the ground," I daresay if that had been you pulled to

the ground, your family would jump on the brutalizing wagon rather quickly. I hope. And that is what his "family" did.

And I agree with that. He does not have the right to block the view of others, could have been asked, or moved, to the center isle to continue his protest.

His treatment was uncalled for. It was also a small enough venue that I suspect Clinton could have done something about it. But perhaps she is above all that now.

Odd, to see the Vice Pres called a war criminal and he laughs off the protestor. Here a 71 yo is dragged to the ground, and then from the room in front of one who, being in the party that used to be on my side, I would have expected to have the moral fiber to stop.

[JoeyT]

62. That doesn't make her look particularly good either.

She stood and watched an elderly man being drug out of the hall for not doing anything disruptive. It's still pathetic and disgusting.

By the way, was he dragged shouting or dragged in silence and shouted three words at the last second?

[Beacool]

63. I wasn't there.

I wouldn't know.

:shrug:

[struggle4progress]

85. According to the GW article, he stood up in the middle of the audience: that would block

the view of people seated behind him -- something that would certainly be regarded as disruptive

[BeFree]

92. Jolly good show, old chap

It sure got their attention.

Can we just stop the damn wars, now?

[struggle4progress]

106. Not sure how much attention it got: I see one TV spot, an article in the GW student newspaper,

and a few blog-echos of the PCJ piece -- as one might expect from a talk in a very small auditorium

I can't see why the SoS Clinton would be a natural target anyway. The material-economic base of war support will be the military's suppliers; so I'd expect the right folk to target would be in Congress, since the economic forces are constantly lobbying them (directly or indirectly) for more war

<edit: added missing word>

[EFerrari]

108. So when Ray McGovern is manhandled right in front of her face

we shouldn't pay attention because she isn't the right target?

Seriously?

[struggle4progress]

115. Huh?

[BeFree]

112. Hilliary is a smart action

She can crack the whip on many war mongers.

And here we are talking about ol' Ray. Been awhile.

[grahamhgreen]

167. If Standing in silent protest warrants arrest, then why was Hillary defending the Egyptian protester

protesters?

Oh that's right, they are actually

[polmaven]

229. He was not arrested

for "standing in silent protest". He was being removed from the auditorium because his actions were disruptive to others around him. It was the resistance and actions during that procedure that led to his arrest. I have not seen a first hand account of what happened outside of the auditorium doors, so I cannot speak to that.

[grahamhgreen]

255. What kind of protest could he do that would be acceptable, then, anything?

[polmaven]

256. How about one that

did not disrupt other's ability to see past him...like maybe a protest outside the doors, with a sign maybe, that people would see as they left the room? We all complained about the teabaggers causing disruption at town hall meetings. Why is this different?

[grahamhgreen]

262. Standing in silent protest seems like a perfectly

reasonable protest, IMHO.

Standing outside would not have been seen, or heard, therefore irrelevant.

[polmaven]

288. Then let him stand in a place

which does not disrupt the rights of others as well.

If he was standing - even just inside the door, with a large enough sign to be seen, it would not have been irrelevant. All he was doing by this tactic was making the people whose views he blocked angry at him. How is that effective?

[Ignis]

312. Yeah, why couldn't he move his protest to a designated Free Speech Zone?

:puke:

[frylock]

330. that's what this place has become

[Ignis]

333. I'd love to disagree with you.

Unfortunately, those with a strong authoritarian bent aren't shy about letting the rest of us know what "children" we're being when we fuss over that little 1st Amendment thing.

[frylock]

329. good idea! set up a "first amendment zone"

like a fenced-in area where protestors are corraled and nobody can see them! i can't believe someone hasn't thought of this before! fucking brilliant!!1

[polmaven]

369. Did I say ANYTHING

even remotely close to that? I said he should protest in a place IN THE ROOM, and WHERE HE COULD BE SEEN, but not disrupt other people in the room who wanted to see and hear the SoS. please point out to me exactly where I said anything at all close to first amendment zones. - P.S. I won't hold my breath until you find it.

We all did a lot of complaining about the teabaggers who disrupted the town hall meetings last Fall. And rightly so. Why now is it OK to interfere with the reason for which the rest of the audience were there?

[frylock]

377. drawing comparisons to what the teabaggers did and ray mcgovern standing quietly..

with his back to clinton really serves to expose your absolute ignorance on the topic.

[polmaven]

388. I believe disruption is disruption.

There are ways to make a point without disrupting other people.

I have done protests for many years....since Viet Nam days. I am not an "ignorant" person, and your insinuation is insulting. But then, that is what you were going for, isn't it?

[frylock]

390. you draw the teabagger card and then whine about being insulted?

you have yourself a nice day.

[Ignis]

298. "his actions were disruptive to others around him"

Yes, that definitely warrants police brutality. Can't have "those people" dirtying up our political rallies, can we?

[polmaven]

370. And if the police brutalized him

after they removed him from the hall, then that may need to be investigated. There is still absolutely nothing to show that he was beaten in front of SoS Clinton, however, as the OP states.

Did the other people in the room have any rights to be able to see and hear what they were there for? What did you think about the disruptor's at town hall meetings last Fall? He couldn't have made his point any other way?

[Ignis]

381. Could he? Sure. Should he be dragged to the floor if not? No.

Could someone on Sec. Clinton's staff have told security to allow McGovern to stay in silent protest?

:shrug:

You tell me.

[mmonk]

125. It wasn't much of a shout or scream. I've seen the video.

Here it is:

http://americancommentary.wordpress.com/2011/02/16/american-hypocrisy-former-c-i-a-analyst-and-army-veteran-beaten-and-jailed-at-clinton-speech/?preview=true&preview_id=1082&preview_nonce=f4a7a43591

[polmaven]

227. And just how

will this account allow anyone to rant about the demise of America? C'mon, Bea.....let's not insert any rationality into this! Wow!

[Beacool]

367. When it comes to the Clintons, rationalization goes out the window.

Any and every excuse is good enough for the spear carriers of the far left to bash them.

The heck with the whole thing, this thread has become virulent. I'm done with it.

x(




:hi:

[geek tragedy]

233. Yes, HIllary should have used her X-Ray and telescopic

vision to determine that a protestor was (allegedly) brutalized.

[Ignis]

360. "blocking the view of guests and media"

Well, that's a cardinal sin in the United States of Media, isn't it?

Dragging this old guy to the floor and out of the room seems perfectly justified now.

[Poll_Blind]

59. Meh, she's always been in it for Hillary. Sad to get a reminder like this.

But it is genuinely tough to be surprised.

By the way, it's the wars that're killing us, not old dudes waving shirts to stop them.

PB

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[femrap]

61. Welcome to

Dumfukistan, the former US of A.

Ray McGovern has been with us for years now!!! I remember him in the basement of Congress w/ Conyers (who is a HUGH disappointment) testifying during the W years. I taped it.

We are but a mere shadow of what we once were.

[Poboy]

95. He was also in the ditch at Crawford Tx. with Cindy.

You would think SHE (Clinton) would know exactly who he is.

[struggle4progress]

66. So:

Can't tell too much from the video you posted

(1) How big is the room? Was McGovern at the very back of it, or was he standing in front of someone?
(2) What was the actual event? It's a pretty small room for a speech open to the general public: it has the size of a faculty seminar or classroom, and I think I'm seeing a few bald heads and maybe some gray hair
(3) Were the people who hustled him out university officials, DC officials, or federal officials?

The details matter. And the original piece at PCJ is short on details: exact time, place, &c&c
http://www.justiceonline.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5553&news_iv_ctrl=1003

<edit:> The GW student paper article has some detail: ... an unidentified elderly man .. stood up in the middle of the crowd .. for several minutes. After ... a security officer asked him to sit down, two officers dragged him .. out ...

[Beacool]

70. Here's a link to that portion of the event.

I don't think that she even noticed McGovern. As someone who has been on plenty of stages during my performing years, I can tell you that it is hard to see anyone past the first few rows due to the lights. Besides, anyone who knows Hillary is aware that she has poor eyesight.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/heckler-interrupts-hillary-clinton-20110215-lgf

[tkmorris]

130. Umm, it's hard to take that comment seriously

They wrestled the man right down the center aisle, directly in front of her. He was not shouting or anything, but there was certainly enough noise to be noticed even if she were completely blind. Furthermore it was a pretty small venue. The podium she spoke from was no more than a few feet from the first row of seats. It simply isn't believable that she did not see what was going on, sorry.

[EFerrari]

71. You can't see goons trying to put a 70 year old man in a head lock?

Nice going.

[struggle4progress]

83. I can't tell very much from the video

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

68. This is honestly the strangest, most dishonest thing I have ever seen posted here

And I am not surprised.

[EFerrari]

74. And that's quite a statement considering there's video and stills

to back it up.

Denial, not just for Republicans any more.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

87. Reporting the truth is the new disruptive? Okay then.

:)

[Change has come]

107. alerted. Why be so nasty?

[Enthusiast]

212. It's not entirely unexpected

from that particular quarter.

[avaistheone1]

265. Sadly true.

What has become of us.

[Beacool]

75. Hi, PBS

Yeah, well, what did you expect? In their world Hillary is the enemy, they keep repeating that she's not one of them (whatever that means). Any excuse to continue that meme is good enough.

:eyes:

[PBS Poll-435]

81. Hillary in her duel role as Captain of the Police put golf balls into a pair of pantyhose

and beat Roy senseless.

Damn you, Hillary!

[Beacool]

90. Here are some pics from the event.

Who knows how much she saw before the man was taken out of the auditorium? It's hard to notice a lot when standing on a stage. She may have heard the disturbance, but not what led to it.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

94. The people in the front row are turning their heads.

The very front row.

But, good going, defending this shit.

[Beacool]

99. They are not on the stage.

Of course people will turn their head when there's a disturbance.

[EFerrari]

104. And Hillary didn't even need to turn hers.

Because she's looking straight at the "disturbance".

Thanks for posting those stills.

[Change has come]

109. Not sure you're helping your girl here.

:wtf:

[polmaven]

232. And as far as

her somehow knowing who it was - and that based on that alone she should have stopped it...ummm, well, what can I say.

A man stands up in the audience and immediately *turns his back to her*, and is then removed after refusing to leave or sit down so as to not be disruptive to the other audience members, - and his face is still not visible to her - and somehow she is supposed to be psychic enough to know who it was.

Unreal.

[Beacool]

242. Ahhhh, the far left................

Just as kookie as the far right. Hillary in the middle of giving a speech is somehow supposed to know that the old guy with his back to her is the famed activist, Ray McGovern.

Sometimes this place is just plain weird.

:crazy:



:hi:

[JonLP24]

392. Why does it matter who it is?

She should of spoke up no matter who it was.

[frylock]

334. direct line-of-sight..

you actually posted these in DEFENSE of clinton?!

[EFerrari]

82. Apart from how rude it is to pretend to talk over people

what is your point, exactly? Is it something that you can articulate or do you have to only whisper it to people who agree with you?

[tkmorris]

133. She keeps demonstrating she's not one of us

All we're doing is noticing it.

[Beacool]

137. What the heck does that mean?

Who is the "us" that she is not a part of?

[mod mom]

260. so you have no problem w her adding neocons into our foreign policy?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=430023&mesg_id=430023

I believe it reveals tremendous insight as to where she stands.

[Agony]

77. I so agree that it is strange and dishonest hypocrisy for her to say

this ---> “They stood and marched and chanted, and the authorities tracked and blocked and arrested them. "

While this happens in front of her---->After not responding when a security officer asked him to sit down, two officers dragged him shouting out of the auditorium.

and then she said this---> “What happened in Egypt and what happened in Iran, which this week is once again using violence against protesters seeking basic freedoms,
was about a great deal more than the Internet,” Clinton said. “In each case people protested because of deep frustrations with the political and economic division of their lives.”

How strange and dishonest can you get?

Cheers,
Agony

[rhett o rick]

144. Your rebuttal is underwhelming. nm

[Forkboy]

272. Your post is the epitome of hyperbole.

[Number23]

352. And considering the foolishness that gets regularly posted here, that is TRULY saying something

[leftstreet]

69. K&R

I'd like to find more about this.

The student/audience apathy is troubling.

[truth2power]

80. This is incomprehensible!!She's talking about free speech and free expression

and she keeps talking as they drag McGovern away right in front of her, for simply standing silently with his back turned?? WTF??

Every day I am more disgusted by the rank hyprocrisy of this administration.

Looking at this, I'm even more convinced of something... this has been niggling at me for a couple of weeks. I think we wanted Mubarak gone for some reason that's not apparent at this time. Otherwise, we would have seen to it that the opposition was crushed.

I have nothing to base this on, other than speculation and my own intuition. What I see is that in the area of human rights the Obama administration displays an extraordinary disconnect between their words and their actions. And given a choice between the two, I'll look at their actions to determine where their interests really lie.

[Kurovski]

84. K&R. How long can the center hold?

What poem is that from? Is it from a poem? it just popped into my head while reading the article.

[Kurovski]

86. Yeats! Of course.

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[LooseWilly]

190. One of the best poems ever...

[martymar64]

214. This one is becoming fitting too. A Dream Deferred by Langston Hughes

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

[truth2power]

91. The Second Coming" William Butler Yeats..

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


edit> Oops! I pulled this up and then walked away from the computer. You got there first. :)

[Kurovski]

111. I thank you nontheless. It was a very kind gesture.

And I appreciate it! :thumbsup:

[truth2power]

197. ...

:)

[Bonobo]

88. If this had happened in Russia, China or Iran we would all know and admit what we saw.

But in America, it "could never happen" and so the blinders go on and the earplugs go in.

Very sad to see anyone defending this.

It is fascism and it is political repression and it is inexcusable.

[Kurovski]

96. Bill Clinton used to speak to disruptors or protesters.

at least some of the time

[Ignis]

351. +1. It can't happen here, eh?

[Luciferous]

93. Wow, K&R

[Skip Intro]

97. Is there an actual unbiased account of this incident?

or is it all war-monger Hillary secretly smiling as one of her detractors is "brutalized" right before her eyes? Just asking...

[EFerrari]

101. There is video and stills in the thread.

[suffragette]

98. K&R

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

103. So, you haven't read the thread and you didn't watch the video

and you didn't look at the stills.

Par.

[Skip Intro]

110. A couple of things:

Yes, I saw the stills. Yes I saw the video. Yes, I read another account of the incident that was posted in this thread.

If he was blocking media and other attendees' view, and was asked twice to sit down, then he was disrupting the event. Much as the teabaggers disrupted the town hall meetings last summer.

The vid doesn't show the incident that led to his removal, only a part of the removal.

The stills show, allegedly, the results.

None of this, in any way, can be logically pinned on Hillary Clinton. Only in some bizarro world would this bs fly.

As for the "par" comment, I'd suggest you save the adolescent sarcasm for the playground.

[Kurovski]

114. Your post implied that the issue was the policies "mouthed" by Obama.

From that it is very clear that you did not absorb the contents of the OP or links.

[EFerrari]

116. Yes in fact, the behavior of security at this event is absolutely Clinton's responsibility.

And apart from trying to weasel her out of a situation that was clearly and obviously mishandled, it shouldn't matter who is at that podium. It should matter that mugging a 71 year old pacifist is wrong.

Just wrong.

That should be it.

[Beacool]

134. Are you for real???????

Since when is the security at a university event the responsibility of the guest speaker? The men who took out McGovern were campus police. Take your complaint to the university, not the SOS.

Gee.......

:crazy:

[jberryhill]

338. Well, we all know that being shot was Giffords' own damned fault

Since she was obviously responsible for security and all...

[Beacool]

364. That must be next.

I think that campus police should have handled the incident better, but to blame Hillary for it is just crazy. These people hate her so much that any excuse is good enough to spew more vile than I've seen at a RW site.

Unbelievable...........

:(

[girl_interrupted]

118. After what happened to Gabby Giffords in Arizona

I don't blame the police from dragging anyone away, not knowing what their intentions were. If police remove you and you resist you can expect to get roughed up. They aren't going to ask about your war record or anything else, they are going to get your ass out of there..pronto. How this is Hillary's fault, is beyond me. She was up there speaking. This was a police action.

[EFerrari]

121. Ray McGovern was not in close proximitely to Clinton

and he was standing with his back to her.

And no, the police do not have a the right to assault you, no matter what happened to Gabby or anyone else.

[girl_interrupted]

126. He looks close enough from the video you posted

Yes, he had his back turned, but what was there to prevent him from turning around? Nothing. Do the police have ESP or X-ray vision? How can anyone predict the future actions of a person who is clearly disrupting? LOL! had to laugh at your "the police have no right to assault you" comments...Guess you have never marched in an anti-war rally...I sure have...3 times and they are none too gentle when they tell you to move and you don't. You aren't escorted out with "kid gloves", that's for sure. And might come as news to you...but the police can arrest you for just about anything.

[Beacool]

135. The campus police had every right to remove someone who they thought was being disruptive.

He apparently was asked more than once to either sit down or leave and he didn't do either. I do not generally approve of an elderly man being manhandled, but he made his choice and was thus removed forcibly.

[Ignis]

302. "Bring the dogs and fire hoses! We got us a peaceful protestor!"

:puke:

[Liquorice]

171. +100. I don't get all the over the top rage directed at Hillary Clinton about it. nt

[Ignis]

301. What a disgusting defense of police brutality.

Non-violent protests do not deserve abuse like this. :thumbsdown:

[TheKentuckian]

310. Gabby Gifford is no excuse for terminating freedom of speech.

The "you can expect to be roughed up" comment is beyond the pale, in my opinion.

You are endorsing a police state where public officials are our betters rather than our equals.

Hillary is a stone fascist, she associates with "The Family".

[Codeine]

117. I've read less histrionic, biased, propagandistic reports

from North Korean media. Jebus, you can practically hear the heavy breathing of the writer as he furiously types it up, one-handed of course.

[EFerrari]

119. On the other hand you suggested that "La Cucaracha" be the anthem

for American Latinos so frankly your judgment doesn't exactly rate on its own. lol

[girl_interrupted]

122. Didn't something similar happen with Kerry? "Don't Tase Me, Bro!"

I didn't think Kerry was anymore responsible for that then Hillary is for this. They are up there giving speeches, not in charge of security, thats left up to the discretion of the security/police.

[Mojeoux]

148. I don't get it.

It does make sense to keep order at public events, but in the summer of '09 why did the "grass roots" anti-health goons get to heckle at all the public town hall rallies all over the USA? Why ?
I don't get it.

[girl_interrupted]

179. Mojeoux great question! Pre-Giffords shooting?

I don't know why they were allowed to act as they did, especially carrying guns to a health care public town hall? Crazy! I think after what happened to Gabby Giffords, people are looking at that kind behavior differently.. especially law enforcement having second thoughts on who might be a possible threat or not. But honestly, I'm not sure.

[Codeine]

129. I did no such thing.

Flat out lie.

[JDPriestly]

123. Hillary, like everyone else in the Obama administration, is a hoax.

I say that because she is presented as a liberal when in fact she is very conservative about a number of things including trade (especially trading American jobs to Indians for absolutely nothing Americans really want or need), war (she strongly supported both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and refused to really listen to arguments against them), funding the military or reigning in Wall Street. There is just nothing liberal about any of her opinions except on gay rights and abortion. And holding liberal opinions on those issues costs her nothing.

I remember when everyone thought the Clintons would be forced into bankruptcy by their defense against the Republican witch hunt about Monica Lewinsky. Just a few years later, they are extraordinarily wealthy. How did that happen? They sold themselves. That's how. That is why I say that Hillary is a hoax.

[Maat]

124. Great post, Ma'am (n/t).

[tpsbmam]

132. I felt the same way when Obama was talking about Etypt and describing the

kind of ideal democracy Egypt should aspire to. It was blah blah blah and *paraphrasing* a country that is run on the rule of law.

Oh,isthatone of the things that makes for an ideal democracy? Well, guess you agree, Mr. President, we no longer are one.

[lonestarnot]

143. Yeah she wears red pant suits.

[Odin2005]

146. That is chilling. Reminds me of the Roman dictator Sulla.

While he gave a speech to the Senate they could hear the screams of the senators he ordered killed. Sulla reportedly said "Don't mind those screams, they are of "troublemakers" being punished".

[Beacool]

149. Well, at least you didn't compare her to Nero or Caligula.

The drama.......

:eyes:

[Dappleganger]

147. This thread is popcorn-worthy.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Beacool]

152. Well, the drama is worthy of the Oscars.

A guy disrupts an event at a university and campus police remove him. Some here react as if Hillary had him beaten up and is personally responsible for his arrest.

:crazy:



:D

[GillesDeleuze]

356. "a guy" -- Ray McGovern

whom i respect infinitely more than your idol.

[sufrommich]

151. What ridiculous hyperbole. The guy was asked to sit down,

refused and was led out of the room. He was " brutalized and left bleeding in jail"? Sounds like a massive law suit to me,we'll see if this stands.

[Capitalocracy]

154. Some people aren't going to like hearing this

but in the video, she clearly smiles when they grab him.

[sufrommich]

157. Was blood dripping from her fangs?

Or is she just trying to show that she's composed while the man is being led out. Gee, I wonder which answer is closer to the truth.

[Capitalocracy]

159. Yeah, nothing puts a smile on my face

like watching the cops drag off a war veteran and peace activist. That just screams out "composed".

[orleans]

156. shame shame shame on her. fucking hypocrite! n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

160. This sickens me.....god damn her

[Skip Intro]

168. It's a sad day for DU when a bs article like this garners over a hundred recs.

I'm embarrassed for this entire board.

[sufrommich]

172. No shit. nt

[The Doctor.]

175. Why?

Really, I think there are plenty here who'd like to know just what's wrong with pointing out this incident. I ask this in earnest.

[Skip Intro]

181. Doc. There is nothing wrong with pointing out this incident. There is a lot wrong

with blaming Hillary for it.

[The Doctor.]

185. That's fair.

It would have been nice for her to directly address the incident in real time, but composure is a very real consideration.

I don't blame her. But I hope that she has the grace to address the incident.

[EFerrari]

199. While she lectures the Egyptians and Iranians on free, public speech. n/t

[Ignis]

303. The irony of that is flying over many heads at Mach2.

Days like this make me wonder, "What has happened to this place?"

[Change has come]

180. I'd kindly ask you to mind your own business!

Keep your shame for yourself. :hi:

[polmaven]

236. What??????

I do believe that, as a member of this site, that poster has EVERY RIGHT to say what s/he thinks......the whole thread is based on attacks against SOS Clinton for somehow being responsible for the beating of a person expressing his opinions, but you think someone who disagrees with that doesn't have the right to express it??? Huh???

[uppityperson]

267. Are you serious? Telling someone to sit down and shut up on this thread?

Irony much?

[EFerrari]

201. What is embarassing is the compulsion to defend authority no matter what

it does to us.

[Skip Intro]

213. Yeah, she commanded his removal, had his heart ripped out for her dinner later.

This thread is one of the most embarrassing things I've seen on DU in my long stint here. Blows my mind. The empty indignation, the mindless bashing. Taking a twisted spin from some blog and running with it without a shred of reason or logic or anything that even approaches reality. Yeah, I'm ashamed of this thread, and blown away that so many people I respect could be so foolish. This entire board has lost a bit of itself here. It's sad.

[Number23]

354. Why are you acting as though this is some new phenomena? This has been going on for over 2 years

One of the reasons that so many truly smart, funny, fantastic people have fled and so many others only come here to point and laugh.

[Ignis]

313. +1

[npk]

372. Or the compulsion to attack those within our own party

to frame a discussion.

[uppityperson]

268. But it is so easy and fun to simply jump to a bad assumption than to check out what actually

happened. I mean, really! I'm SERIES!!1111

I am full agreement with you.

And to have a poster reply to this "sit down and shut up" just makes it more weird.

[Liquorice]

173. I'm glad our SoS is being protected. There are a lot of crazies out

there, as we all know. It's dangerous any time a public figure gets up to speak in front of a large group of people, and safety obviously must be taken very seriously, especially with all the guns out there in the hands of all kinds of wackos.

[The Doctor.]

177. Yes, wackos who face *away* from the speaker....

and who also happen to be high-profile veterans.

I really can't think of much that is more dangerous than someone not looking at a Clinton.

[Liquorice]

178. The security of our SoS is important, and the people who are in charge

of making those decisions clearly thought the guy should be removed. They were right to protect her, and I'm so happy they did. Being a public figure can be quite dangerous, and it's best to err on the side of caution as far as safety goes.

[The Doctor.]

183. I can't disagree about 'erring on the side of caution'.

But this display was very meticulously calculated to not evoke fear. Standing and facing away, after already having passed through security, was no act of aggression. I'm sure that one can make the case that he was being 'Passive aggresive'.

How fucking dare he!

Right?

Think seriously about this... and beyond 'safety fist'.

[frylock]

278. he could have used a mirror, pulled out a six-shooter, and popped her

[Ignis]

332. ...While giving a talk as the "Leader of the Free World" on the subject of free speech.

For some people, irony is just something to do with metallurgy. :freak:

[GillesDeleuze]

357. you are part of the problem.

[Rex]

182. The people that run our country are mindless robots. Amazing

we still have a country left that even resembles a free one. Scared little bunnies of any kind of message getting out of defiance toward the establishment. Unless it is an ultra right wing militant loony toon, then they let him in and roll out the red carpet!! That she didn't miss a beat is fucking pathetic in the least, that she didn't stop them and correct their behavior speaks volumes about Hillary imo.

[Name removed]

187. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dappleganger]

258. WTH? He didn't moon her, he merely turned his back in quiet protest.

[Name removed]

320. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

336. It wasn't private property for one.

And two how was he protected by the 1st if the cops beat him up and assault him?

[Name removed]

348. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

383. .. George Washington University .. is a private, coeducational comprehensive university .. in .. DC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University

[Rex]

385. Still didn't have the right to assault him.

I thank Dog I don't think like you do.

[struggle4progress]

387. Facts first, analysis second. I merely corrected your factual error

[Rex]

335. So you would beat and assault the person over turning their back to you?

What the fuck is this country coming to!?

[frylock]

337. you are indeed missing something..

logic, for starters. this wasn't at your house or clinton's house. mcgovern never once showed his ass.

[Rex]

339. Lame excuses for fascist behavior imo.

Hillary could have turned that into a defining moment...but no, she just kept on bleating like a robot while one of her fellow citizens got beatdown right in front of her.

I have no respect for her anymore.

[frylock]

342. not ONCE has anyone in the amen choir ackowledged that even rumsfeld..

had the common decency to engage mcgovern. pretty fucking pathetic when rumsferatu looks better than a dem.

[polmaven]

371. When you use

terms like "bleating like a robot", and then go on to lie about the man being "beat down right in front of her", why do I get the feeling that you have never really had any respect for her?

[Rex]

384. I was going to vote for her over Obama.

But you go ahead and keep getting things wrong.

[polmaven]

389. You *were* going to

vote for her over Obama.....but you didn't? Why is that...because she "bleated" too much?

[Major Hogwash]

189. Beating up a 71-year old man is an American tradition?

What the hell is going on with these people?
Some guy stands up and turns his back on her and they drag him off to jail?

[Skip Intro]

194. .

[LooseWilly]

191. Yes, "this is America"...

But it's fun to critique the Iranian government's hypocrisy... right?

[Rhiannon12866]

193. OMG! This is horrible!

;(

[cali]

195. Not in front of her they don't.

It's flat out dishonest to claim that they do. They remove him as he's resisting being moved. Do I think it should have been handled that way? No. But lying about what happened doesn't help make the case. Using the word "brutalize" is a deliberate canard.

[pam4water]

196. That's mighty white of her XD

[Le Taz Hot]

200. Perhaps Hil can implement a "Free Speech" zone

whenever she speaks publicly. I understand it's been proven to be effective in the past.

[SpiralHawk]

211. Whoa nellie

Where is the corporate media on this story?

[Little Star]

215. I Can not get your video to play. I found other video's regarding....

this incident on the net but none that I could find actually showed the police removing Ray McGovern (just people telling the story and "pictures" of Ray with abrasions on his arms). Is there a video of the actual incident. I would like to see for myself if Hillary actually saw this brutality happen.

[JoePhilly]

219. I love these knee-jerk threads!!!!

So Hillary is giving a speech ... she's on stage, bright lights pointed at her, probably can't see much of the audience.

The University Police (not Hillary's secret jack booted police force, the University Police), decide that some guy is being disruptive.

And when the University Police take the guy out, Hillary is supposed to stop them from doing their job, and say "wait, wait, wait, I didn't see what that guy did, and I'm not sure why you are taking him out, so please, bring him up on stage so he can talk, and I'll go sit in his seat"

Is that what she was supposed to do?

If the police at any event of this nature decide that a person is being disruptive, or is a threat, or might be dangerous, it is not the speaker's responsibility to tell the police how to do their jobs. For all the speaker knows, the person is armed and dangerous.

I get the sense this guy wanted to make a scene so that the video (which doesn't look like much of a beating to me), would make its way to the internet where the outrage could begin.

And it appears he got what he wanted.

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skip Intro]

223. +100

[w4rma]

241. Did she send him an apology? No. She knows about this now and hasn't done anything. (nt)

[JoePhilly]

253. Maybe she could take him some flowers. nt

[Fuddnik]

224. Is this a great country or what?

[bread_and_roses]

228. Not all the minutia parsing in the world can exonerate Clinton

arguing about where McGovern stood or which police force dragged him out or the exact nuance of the word "brutalize" - worthy of "liberals" at their finest.

There she is, making a speech about "freedom" and a silent man in front of her engaged in non-violent protest is dragged away by security for exercising that very freedom and she says nothing, does nothing, acquiescing by her silence in the silencing of free speech.

It's a perfect Orwellian moment. And just as Orwellian is the attempt to justify her.

[azul]

250. Well said. The irony is crushing our little noggins.

Add that the supplier (USA) of arms and support for these very dictators that the people are rising up against is officially giving lip service to the principles of democratic freedoms.

Mental implosion is imminent, or what? (Up thread.)

[Oilwellian]

375. Indeed

You have absolutely nailed it. Thanks.

[Little Star]

231. Bogus Outrage.....

This is what I said in the political video's thread on this subject and I stand by it:

Name me one Dem who stops their speech because a demonstrator is removed.

Ray was not beaten in front of her.

She quite simply did what Obama, Kerry, Kennedy and others have done when a demonstrator is removed. Why be hypocritical and act like she is the only one who continues on with their presentation?


This is the most bogus outrage I've ever seen and it's bullshit!

[Beacool]

247. Simple, it's because she's a Clinton.

Either one, they are both despised by plenty on this board.

;(

[frylock]

340. i can name you one republican who has..

[Javaman]

234. It's like this...

It's bad when other governments do it to their own people, but when done here, it's an effort to keep the crowd "civil".

So, what will it take for you to understand that this is a police state?

[BanzaiBonnie]

235. What you do for the least...

I say, what you DO to the least is what you do to ALL.


The utter hypocrisy of this action should ring through our land.

[PatSeg]

238. Unbelievable

Well, actually it IS believable, which makes it very depressing.

[GTurck]

239. Infiltrate, infiltrate...

I agree with Thom Hartmann that the only way to start reforming the system is by working in the one party with some history of working with ordinary citizens. Working at the local level where there are more people on our side will eventually work to move the national party in the right direction. Right now the pressure from the bottom is weak because the local (county parties) are just hanging on in the face of corporate dominance at the top. We have echoes but hardly full throated voice.
For god's sake we hold bake sales to field city and county candidates while the GOP here is getting money from every direction including the Koch's.
If you don't like the party system it may be because it has been so thoroughly demonized for the past 30 years by those who want a one party country anyway they can get it. Politics and democracy have never been for the faint of heart or for those who fear giving up pure ideology and that has to be the root of the GOP/Tea Parties.
Having said that I am appalled that Mr. McGovern was treated so badly and undemocratically exercising his right to dissent. Rank and file Democrats should call Secretary Clinton on this. I am.

[w4rma]

240. If they are DLC they need to go. (nt)

[PFunk]

243. Said. Ray deserves better. You know this (thanks to YouTube and such) is gonna go world-wide.

And it's also gonna make the rest of the world discount the US even more when it talks to other nations about human rights. To them the US is getting more hypocritical by the day.

As for Hillary. I for one am glad she's not president now, and probally wont be in the future (thanks in large part to things like this video). What a f'ing disappointment.

[SHRED]

244. With the damage her husband did...

...by signing NAFTA and the Commodity Futures Modernization Act .
The damage that these have wrought and Hillary's pro-war voting record; the students should marched in mass at that University in protest.

But that isn't going to happen because we are dumbed-down sheep.

The days of Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman are long gone.

---

[chill_wind]

252. If this would have happened at a Bush event

we'd be having a different conversation, I'm quite positive. This reminds me of Daniel Ellsberg in December. 79 years old. A day I never thought I would see in my lifetime.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4661944

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x22617

[paulk]

254. hyperbole like this hurts the left far more than helps

I keep hoping that you people will figure this out someday...

[Pisces]

259. It's obvious from these comments that if Hillary were Pres. she would be obliterated on this board.

This is how we treat our democratic leaders by tearing them down every chance we get. Hillary did not beat down Mcgovern with her bare hands. She was not aware of what happened until after the fact. Yet we are ready to rip her to shreds for the actions of others at the speech.

The Democratic party has no chance with support like this. I have to believe that this board is filled with people paid to cause dissention on democratic boards. It is the only answer.

I did not support Hillary for Pres., but I do support her in the Democratic Party. This kind of attack is unwarranted and speaks volumes about the depths this board is sinking.

[sufrommich]

271. I don't think they're getting paid. I just think they're not

democrats.And yes, this board is getting less and less a place for democrats and more and more Free Republic's mirror opposite.

[Pisces]

286. You are right about them not being democrats. The infiltration is disgusting.

[joshcryer]

386. Nah, she could've passed single payer, put SS in a lock box, mandated green energy...

...and DU would've still been this way. :hi:

[MasonJar]

269. Possibly she didn't know what was going on at the time, but she should

speak out against such intrusion on individual rights now.

[paulk]

304. was it an intrusion on "individual rights"?

Does a person have the right to stand up at a public gathering and block the view of those seated behind him? Isn't there a better way to express your disapproval than by impeding the rights of others, which is what McGovern was doing?

[2banon]

331. The better way to express disapproval at a public gathering...

Perhaps, the better way was demonstrated to the world by the Egyptians in Teher Square.. (?) Might that have better received her attention, and conveyed the same message with everyone else's support and approval? :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

279. Unfortunatley, this is corporate-America, violent and fascist -- !! Let's face it--!!

Corporatism = fascism

And DLC-corporate wing Hillary is part of that fascist America!!

[rhett o rick]

284. There are two sides and she isnt on our side. nm

[Name removed]

282. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chill_wind]

296. Even Rumsfeld's survived a guy who did nothing more than stand with back turned

on Rumsfeld his entire speech.. Which is in no way an exoneration of anything connected to that unholy and most foul official, but in McGovern's own words:

"At the same speech, there was a courageous guy who stood with his back to Rumsfeld the entire speech. They left him completely alone and he walked out at the end, unbothered."

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

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[florida08]

289. God Almighty

I hope he sues her and her bouncers. Video http://www.commondreams.org/further/2011/02/16-3

[Buzz Clik]

292. Get a grip. How could he sue her? This has NOTHING to do with HIllary.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Ignis]

300. She's incapable of saying, "Let that man be, he's protesting peacefully?"

:shrug:

[Name removed]

323. Deleted message

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[florida08]

290. dupe

[Name removed]

293. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frylock]

306. she was absolutely powerless in this situation, just like rumsfiled was..

when he ALLOWED mcgovern to exercise his silent protest. keep fuckin that chicken.

[Martin Eden]

305. What did Hillary know and When did she know it?

Speaking in front of a big crowd she may have noticed Mr. McGovern being roughly handled and taken away, but it's quite a leap to jump to the conclusion that she knew the circumstances or personally ordered it. In this day and age a commotion like that in the crowd -- from the perspective of the speaker -- could have been the apprehension of someone who posed a threat.

I am not in the least condoning what was done to Mr. McGovern. I have been a fan of his since the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity challenged the Bush administration's bogus case for invading Iraq.

I just think that too many people here are rushing to judgement in pinning this on Hillary Clinton. What did she know and When did she know it?

[keilsonky]

307. Hillary and the protester

This discussion is one of the reasons I am often disgusted with DU forums. Attacking Hillary for an incident that she did not have anything to do with. Hillary travels with security, she is one of the most powerful people in the world. She needs protection. Being escorted out of the area was probably the attempt, he did not go peacefully, they dragged him out. I saw no beating, Hillary saw no beating. Period.

Now to the DUers that basically spit on Hillary for fun. I saw one respondent that had a picture of Gabrielle Giffords as their icon flaming away on Hillary. This was more than ironic since someone came in and shot her at a gathering. The security doesn't know who means to do harm. This man was obviously close enough to Hillary. Anyone who gives any tiny idea that they could be dangerous should be taken outside. This man knew what was coming, the picture showed he was prepared for it. He got his picture taken quite readily by someone who was in a good place and he a made very small and insignificant impact. If he resisted to be removed for thought of an Arizona type event, he got what was coming to him. If he sustained bruises, he got what he wanted, pictures. I have seen this man before and in protest terms, he is a media whore. The message he states is just and true, his methods make him useless to a cause. Being at a ton of protests I understand that face time is a good thing. Doing this at a security heavy event is stupid and counter-productive. Also, try doing this at people's events that are most deserving of attention, it makes more sense.

Now flame me.

[TheKentuckian]

315. Another cheerleader for the police state and a preacher for the church of

keep your protests to yourself and out of the sight of your betters.

Hillary Clinton and all public officials are citizens with an extra burden of stewardship, not gods.

[keilsonky]

322. Huh?

Honestly, that made no sense, try again.

[TheKentuckian]

368. My post didn't encapsulate your world view?

[keilsonky]

374. Well, no

You seem hate-filled and wrongheaded, so no you aren't valid to me. Also, you seem so over the top I half expect you to just be a troll. Thirdly, the title of your rebuttal wasn't complete and the first line in was asinine ans sophomoric attempt at superiority. The last line, although thoughtless was valid as an opinion but delivered hatefully. Your opinion means nothing. If, and that is a very strong if, you could explain why Hillary is wrong in the situation, how she is to be held responsible, and why the protester was in the right in doing this after the tragedy in Arizona, maybe I could understand your words better. But, I am sure you can not do much but react rather than think and respond. You see, I am a liberal that speaks as a liberal should. Thoughtful and honest and true. You are a troll that stirs up trouble. You have nothing to give to a conversation. You are like a Freeper without loyalty.

Good day

[TheKentuckian]

395. You are an authoritarian using the shooting as an excuse to curtail peaceful protests

Hillary is a corporate hack, delivering a hypocritical bullshit speech.

I don't hold her personally responsible for the incident other than a lifetime of service to the corrupt forces, institutions, and mentality that must be opposed.

I was only attempting to describe my perception of your worldview. Any "hate" is a reflection of that perception.

[keilsonky]

401. Better tone

At least you took it down a notch, wtg. No, bad respondent. As I said in my first post, I have been to countless peaceful protests. I understand the face time that is needed to get empathy. What I do not get is why this gentleman decided to do it in a situation that he knew he would get this treatment. Strong opinion, definitely. Results? No. He only got results in a few places, like here and probably NewsMax showing "idiot liberals". Other than that his efforts have failed, this is a non-story. People like him and you, evidently do not realize the images shown supposedly showing a peaceful man being roughed up really display to the public as a fringe far left looney. I know he is not, you know he is not, but perception is all there is. Fortunately in this case, there is no perception, because this story went nowhere. I appreciate you toning the chat down to discussion. Your initial rant was over the top and not justified. DU has become a bastion of the fringe and home of the trolls. I immediately thought you as one or the other. I understand you are a passionate freedoms fighter. That is wonderful. But you can not understand my world view from one post. And what i saw as hate was passion, sorry.

[Name removed]

309. Deleted message

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[proReality]

311. Has anyone seen where they've put the Constitution?

It seems to have gone missing. I wonder if they left it in the 1930s time capsule.

[Ignis]

317. That old thing? It's "just a goddamn piece of paper" these days, apparently.

[Shining Jack]

318. It's not missing.

It's being used as toilet paper. :(

[2banon]

314. It seems the point of this OP is more of a critique on the Hypocrisy of the Policy of..

upholding basic freedom of (peaceful) expression in opposition to government policies..the blatant hypocrisy of this administration (as well as past administrations) to proclaim that is what they value, and encourage etc.. while here at home, that right is denied too often for it's own citizenry. Time and time again the US Police State Apparatus exact the very ssame actions and brutal tactics against peaceful protesters here as we have witnessed in Iran, Egypt, Lybia and elsewhere.

We are required to submit applications in advance for permits to hold demonstrations etc., and letters, email, and phone calls are ignored... the press here may as well be "state owned" (for all that they're worth) etc..

iow, this ain't personal. the discussion should be about the hypocrisy, imo. do you agree or disagree with actions taken, or do you see a bit of cognitive dissonance on the part of this administration's officials regardless who the individuals are?

At least that's in part how I see it. :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

321. She did not have him arrested. The university security made that decision.

Where's the hypocrisy?

[2banon]

325. The hypocrisy was obvious to me...

The hypocrisy is the context of the very speech she was making, the message she was attempting to convey to the world, to the middleeast. Given that she actually did have the podium, given her position of authority, her position of power, she could have, simply put, insisted that the dissenter be allowed to be left alone, to be allowed to remain. After all, he was expressing his views peacefully, and silently no less.

The hypocrisy seems fairly blatent through my lens. Even though Clinton was simply carrying out the policies of this administration's masters.. she still had the authority to intervene with the campus police's actions, if she wished, if she wanted to demonstrate to the world what the principles of democracy and free speech actually looks like, and how much we value those principles. She clearly does not actually believe in the principles she was espousing at the podium at that very moment. The choice to act on his behalf was certainly hers to make. She clearly did not.

[upi402]

341. Hillary is a Republican

Not surprise, bur furious over the treatment of this man.
There are some pretty disgusted hands out there.

We need to have less gadgets, weapons, and spying on Americans, and more hands in-country.

[Name removed]

346. Deleted message

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[gateley]

344. I'm not a HIllary fan, but this surprises me. I just can't picture her ignoring such

an injustice occurring right in front of her. :shrug:

Are we sure she was unaware? (I haven't read the article nor the responses - will go back and do so now.)

[onehandle]

345. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton works for President Barack Obama. Send your concerns to him --->

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

[wildbilln864]

347. Ray McGovern is a great American and....

a thruther like me.

[mysuzuki2]

349. I'm sorry, but standing silently

while wearing a shirt with a political message is NOT disruptive. Nor is it disorderly conduct. If Hilary was really interested in human rights and free expression she would have stopped her speech and told the police officers to leave Mr McGovern alone.

[Lucian]

350. And this is surprising how?

[politicasista]

353. delete n/t

[SimonBolivar]

355. Total MSM Blackout

I can't recall any news story that has been blacked out like this. Even news bad for the regime gets some disinfo coverage.

[KoKo]

359. "THEY (MSM)" are blacking out more these days. But, in many situations they wait 2-Days

and THEN REPORT. They WAIT because they want to see how much "FaceBook/Twitter BUZZ" they get before they "dip their dirty dollar toes into the story.

MSM is Highly Paid. Look at what Obama's New Press Secretary got for just moving from TIME MAGAZINE to VP BIDEN's PRESS SECRETARY!

It's really disgusting...it's down to worse than what we saw years ago...and it progresses with each new President how LOW they GO!

[Whisp]

391. that should tell us all something

if it was Obama there would be 25 hour coverage, but it's a Clinton, so sweep sweep sweep rug rug rug. They get as much protection as the fucking repugs.

She had to have heard/seen this and just went on with her spew. Gutless.

[KoKo]

358. This is truly DISGUSTING... Kick for TRUTH!

[Shining Jack]

361. K&R n/t

[katty]

365. this is the hypocrisy we live in and under

[james0tucson]

366. What?

Wait, what?

He was just standing there silently, and was assaulted by police officers?

There's nothing more to the story?

[npk]

373. I guess decorum is a thing of the past here in this new America

I guess disrupting speeches, blocking others rights to see a speech and acting like a five year old is now considered hip and cool. I am not saying that agree with the police dragging Mr. McGovern out of the building, though I suspect that they asked him several times to sit down and after he refused they had no other choice but to remove him from the building. I don't see the brutalization that the OP is trying to frame in this discussion. I see a few bruises that could be explained by the passive resistance offered by Mr. McGovern in having to be dragged out of the building, after he refused to take a seat. I believe that trying to compare what happened to this man and what has happened to the people who were brutalized in Egypt is an insult to every citizen that has truly been beaten and brutalized by the the police or military. If people know before hand that they are going to be disrespectful to speakers who are in attendance at a given event, then they should find another way to protest. All though I suspect Mr. McGovern got exactly the attention he wanted by the police.

[EFerrari]

397. In fact, no, he wasn't asked to sit down. They simply attacked him.

And there was nothing indecorous about Ray standing in silent protest.

[mysuzuki2]

380. the point is here that an American citizen

was ARRESTED for expressing his opinion. He didn't disrupt or attempt to stop Hilary from speaking. He didn't attempt to stop others from listening. He protested silently. Even if the police treated him with kid gloves it is wrong and frightening.

[struggle4progress]

394. Nah. It's another "Lone Ranger" action with all the standard whining that

"Lone Ranger" actions usually involve. The choice of target and venue show little careful thought; there's no evidence of a serious and intelligent organizing effort; and the action itself simply pissed off a bunch of entirely peripheral folk

"Lone Ranger" actions like this simply allow an "in-crowd" to indulge their feelings of self-righteousness, without generating any real political pressure for the alleged goal

[EFerrari]

396. The "in crowd" like Robert Parry? Ray McGovern Bloodied at Clinton Talk

Sometimes the hypocrisy is just overwhelming. So, it probably shouldn't surprise us that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton would deliver a speech hailing the peaceful protests that changed Egypt while 71-year-old Ray McGovern was roughed up and dragged away for standing quietly in protest of her support for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"So this is America," said McGovern as he was hustled from the room by two security guards. "This is America."

McGovern, a former Army intelligence officer and a 27-year veteran of the CIA, was wearing a "Veterans for Peace" t-shirt and, according to witnesses, was standing silently with his back to Secretary Clinton before he was set upon by the two agents who bruised, bloodied and handcuffed McGovern, a cancer survivor.

McGovern, who writes for Consortiumnews.com, has been detained at other events protesting both the illegality of U.S. wars and the hypocrisy of demanding accountability for others but not for senior U.S. officials implicated in war crimes, like the torture authorized by former President George W. Bush and ex-Vice President Dick Cheney.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ray-McGovern-Bloodied-at-C-by-Robert-Parry-110217-487.html

You know, people minimizing this are showing the same contempt for democracy that Clinton and the university did. Well done.

[struggle4progress]

398. I'll try to explain why this particular "action" sucks strategically:

If the intent is to bring public attention to the war and to create public opinion for ending it, the action has to be clean and understandable, with an appropriate target.

There's nothing wrong with generating controversy if the controversy produces discussion furthering the issue. But if the intent is to bring public attention to the war, the "controversy" here will not do that: it will simply distract from the intended issue

Most people are simply going to shake their heads sadly at the choice of venue here: the SoS has essentially no control over the war, and the relationship between a lecture on Egypt and the war will be unclear to almost everyone

Civil disobedience can be a useful way to generate controversy and public discussion. But again, it will only accomplish that if there is a clear nexus between the action and the issue

Look at this thread and you'll see what I mean. The thread is a mishmash. Nobody knows what this thread is about. Is it about the war? Is it about whether Ray McGovern has the right to stand in an lecture audience and block the view of the people behind him? Is it abou8t whether an invited speaker at a university is responsible for the behavior of university security? Is it about whether security personal at GWU are unnecessarily rough in dealing with disruptive people? Is it about whether the SoS is a hypocrite? Nobody has a fuckin clue what this thread is about.

So Ray McGovern got himself thrown out of a university lecture hall. There's no indication that he even succeeded in educating a fraction of the people there about the issue he supposedly cares about. It looks like he might have gotten a bruise on his arm from university security grabbing him hard, and it looks like he got his name mentioned in a handful of blogs. Pbbt! As community organizing, the whole affair rates a big fat zero in my book: it will have essentially no effect. It's a "Lone Ranger" action that merely cheapens the discussion

[EFerrari]

399. What you think of the *strategy* has nothing to with it. n/t

[JVS]

400. Having them speak well of free expression is half a loaf. We should be content.

;-)