An inconvenient fact for the South Bashers here...

[Ghost in the Machine]

Consider the fact that there are 37 hate groups in Tennessee and 37 in Georgia, per the SPLC. Now consider the land mass of these 2 states.

Next consider the sizes of Delaware with their (4) groups, Rhode Island with their (3), New Jersey with their (44), Maryland with their (13), D.C. with their (9) and Massachusetts with their (16). That amounts to 86 hate groups in Northern states that would collectively cover the same land mass area as either Georgia or Tennessee.

Just a little food for thought, something to chew on before you start your unwarranted finger pointing and spouting your uninformed opinions.

[DavidDvorkin]

1. Population is the important consideration, not land mass

I don't know how your numbers work out on a per-capita basis, but that's the one that counts.

[Warpy]

3. Exactly, dirt don't join hate groups

unless it happens to be walking on two legs.

[DailyGrind51]

17. Hey, my lawn must hate me, no matter what I do for it, it still looks like crap!

;-)

[demmiblue]

6. I have to agree...

New Jersey, Rhode Island and Massachusetts are the three most densely populated states in the U.S.

(Not that I agree with bashing the South)

[Mopar151]

91. I dunno about NJ

But MA and RI are stuffed to the gills with hateful goobers (no shortage anywhere in New England)..... Thing is, they have a whole range of folks on their list to badmouth, defame, and backstab! Most of 'em are careful/scared to reveal themselves in public - 'cuz a lot of the people they're hatin' on look just like them, and the subgroups seem to thrive on hatin' each other.

For instance - Hispanics ("Ricans), French Canadians (Canucks, Quebecois), Central/South Americans, Portugese (Portagee), Asians, Afro- Americans, Africans, Indian/Pakistani (Towelheads), Jews, Middle Easterners (A-rabs, ragheads), and my ethnic group (Woodchucks, Toothless & Trailer Trash)

[Ghost in the Machine]

8. Ok, New Jersey's Population, 2009 estimate 8,707,739 - Tn's Population, 2009 estimate 6,296,254

Yet New Jersey is about a 3rd of the size of Tennessee...

Take into consideration that there are millions of acres of unpopulated land in Tennessee, Georgia and Alabama... the same goes for the Carolinas...

[NutmegYankee]

29. Land doesn't vote or hate.

A second consideration is what is the population in these groups? Is this a group of 30 members or a group of 1000?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

33. Jesus H. Christ.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic

[bluestate10]

38. Ghost. It may be more constructive to ask you how YOU would change the

South and what northerner and far westerners can do as their part. You are a contributing member of DU, so I take you to be legit and have legitimate progressive or moderate leanings politically.

[Ghost in the Machine]

46. I try to change as many minds as I can, whenever I get the chance to..

Which is quite often around here. I find a lot of people vote republican purely because "my granparents were republicans, my parents are and so am I". Being that there are a lot of poor, working poor and disabled people around here, I always ask them how, in good conscience, could they vote for a republican when republicans sat on a bill in our legislature, for TWO YEARS, that would have raised our State's minimum wage.

I try to use logic on the ones who insist that "the Democrats wanna take our guns!!", and ask them "how in the world could they confiscate every gun in America? Do you think they are going to go door to door searching? Can you see the logistics problem with this? Look dude, I have 15 acres, you have 11, dude next door has 12.. do you think they are going to search every inch of all of our properties? Do you think they are going to do this to every home in the US?"


The key to change is educating the people. What can anyone else do? Start denouncing the gun grabber Democrats, it makes it hard to convince someone we don't want to take their guns when they can go online and show you lots of links where Democrats actually DO want to take their guns.

I'm still working on what to say about their "God" and "abortion" arguments since I'm pro-choice and an atheist...

[nosmokes]

67. The South needs Bashing.

I've been in Alabama due to a family medical situation and while things here have improved much, there is still so much further for them to go to catch up w/ the rest of us it's not even funny any more. Selma Al just passed an ordinance making saggy pants illegal. Now who do you spose that's aimed at? middle class white kids? Nefarious crime lords or gang bangers? hell no, the city council even admits it's aimed at 'certain' youth. And all the white people speak in code down here. They know they can't say nigger in public so it's all 'those folks from Edendale Estates' or 'west of Vaughn Rd' or some other neutral descriptive that everyone knows what the speaker is referring to. Pick-ups w/ confederate flags while not as prolific as 30 years ago are still a common sight as are businesses named dixie this or rebel that. And black people and white people do not mingle or interact with each other outside of work.

It's a different fucking world down here largely because of a bunch of ignorant assed peckerwood crackers that are beat over the head by pundits, preachers and politicians that all have an agenda to keep them frightened and afraid of unions or anything else that might help them see the fight isn't black ~v~ white or latino it's the wealthy against the rest of us and the rich are kicking our ass. But it's so much simpler to let Faux News and the GOPosse do your thinking for you and how much leisure time do you have when you're working your ass off for substandard wages trying to raise a family?

[Kalyke]

86. Then the problem isn't the South, it's the pundits.

Did you listen to yourself?

[nosmokes]

88. ya, I know exactly what I said. But the rest of the country doesn't use

Jesus and the Bible and goin' to church 3X a week for backwards 19th century conceptions of how the world oughta work.The problem ain't the pundits. They're on the idiot box and the radio up North and out West too. The problem is in the goddamn pulpits and the pews.

[NeedleCast]

97. Just who is "The Rest of Us" that you allude to in your post?

Have you been to rural Ohio or Pennsylvania recently? Upstate New York? Because I have, and those are just a few "non-southern" areas where they aren't shy about using the "N" word and other racial slurs.

[pipi_k]

90. And Massachusetts...as small as we are, land-wise....had est. 6,497,967 population in 2008

like others have said, land doesn't form hate groups.

Although it does embarrass me to know that Mass has hate groups at all, but we don't choose our fellow residents...

[Marr]

9. One hate group per 170k people in Tennesee, one per every 221k in Delaware.

If my math is right. It feels silly breaking it down like this, since you can find bigots anywhere. However, if we're going to, it certainly doesn't seem like the South is going to come out looking superior.

[Ghost in the Machine]

13. There are more residents in Shelby County Tn than the entire state of Delaware

So, what's your point? :shrug:

[Marr]

16. What's yours?

I divided the population of the state by the number of hate groups. You're comparing land mass. How does that make sense?

In case you're curious, in California the number works out to 1 hate group for every 660k people... again, if my figures are right. Delaware's such a tiny place, the per capita results on something like that may be a bit skewed.

You seemed to be suggesting that the south is actually less racist than the rest of the country. I'm saying it doesn't seem that way. Just the opposite, in fact-- if we're going to use the number of hate groups as an indicator.

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Ok, so how many would one encounter in New Jersey? See post #8 for details...

Looking deeper, some of the numbers on the SPLC may be somewhat misleading. Though they list 37 groups for Tennessee, there are actually only 8 different groups, with several factions of each group:

Aryan Nations Revival Christian Identity
Council of Conservative Citizens White Nationalist Erwin
Council of Conservative Citizens White Nationalist Bartlett
Council of Conservative Citizens White Nationalist Franklin
Council of Conservative Citizens White Nationalist Kingsport
Council of Conservative Citizens White Nationalist Cleveland
Crew 38 Racist Skinhead
European Americans United of Tennessee White Nationalist Sale Creek
European-American Unity and Rights Organization White Nationalist Memphis
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Woodbury
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Hohenwald
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Shelbyville
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Nashville
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Clarksville
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Franklin
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Linden
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Readyville
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Brush Creek
Fraternal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Alexandria
Great Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Telford
Great Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Watauga
Great Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Talbott
House of Yahweh Christian Identity New Tazewell
League of the South Neo-Confederate Westpoint
League of the South Neo-Confederate Nashville
League of the South Neo-Confederate Lobelville
Mary Noel Kershaw Foundation Neo-Confederate Lobelville
Nation of Islam Black Separatist Nashville
Nation of Islam Black Separatist Memphis
National Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Brush Creek
National Socialist Movement Neo-Nazi
Revolutionary Order of the Aryan Republic Neo-Nazi Chattanooga
Supreme White Alliance Racist Skinhead
The Creativity Alliance Neo-Nazi Maryville
The Creativity Alliance Neo-Nazi Mountain City
The Political Cesspool White Nationalist Bartlett
United Northern and Southern Knights of the Ku Klux Klan Ku Klux Klan Kingsport

[Marr]

43. See what? You didn't list the number of hate groups. You talked about

the land mass again, which makes no sense in this context.

I just did the math, and it breaks down to 1 per 198k in NJ, and again, 1 per 170k in Tennessee.

As for the hate group breakdown, I'm assuming the same methodology was applied to all states when tallying up their hate groups. Are you really arguing that the south is actually several times less racist, and being framed by malicious statisticians? Because that number would shift Tennessee to something like 1 hate group per ever 1 and a half million, which would make it something like 100% less racist than California.

[bluestate10]

19. The point is that per capital is important.

The chance that a Massachusetts resident will meet a member of a hate group is rather small. What is the chance that a normal resident will meet a member of a hate group in Shelby County Tennessee? Look, I have my frustrations with the south, mostly because the majority of people down there vote in a way that is purely destructive to their self interests, yet they think they are voting well. But having written the last sentence, I have visited parts of the south on business, people there are decent enough and at their core, have the same concerns that I see from people in the north and pacific coast, when I am in those states. I don't know your political philosophy, but if you are progressive or moderate in the south, you can do the nation a lot of good by engaging your less astute voters in an honest discussion of why their votes are bad for them and the nation.

[Radical Activist]

101. This is what happens when a conservative state doesn't fund schools.

[stuntcat]

2. I'll testify :) many of the best people I know are Southern

I know some selfish boring wastes of flesh from the North too.

[Ghost in the Machine]

59. Same here...

:hi:

[NorthCarolina]

63. Me too!

:hi:

[rug]

4. You left out the Republican party.

The North wins.

[justinsb]

18. Also

At least according to me most evangelical churches are hate groups, Southern Baptists too. This isn't really a knock against the South exclusively though. The Catholic church is also a hate group, imo (and one that has committed some horrendous crimes.)

[SheilaT]

5. I really get tired of

the bashing of some part of the country, or a state, or a city.

I certainly have my personal favorites, and quite frankly there are some places you could not pay me enough money to live it. But any number of others actually love those places and wouldn't be willing to live where I do, or have.

No one group has a monopoly on hate or bigotry. It's widespread, alas.

[Odin2005]

7. In many parts of the Deep South 90% of Whites vote Puke.

Voting is not nearly as segregated by race in other parts of the country.

[cordelia]

41. How about backing that assertion up

with some facts.

[PurityOfEssence]

10. Being a liberal in a Blue State doesn't take much, but it takes character in a Red one...

Population density is also a good indicator of liberalism, and there's a reason for this: the more you coexist with different people, the more tolerant you tend to be. Look at a Blue-Red map: even in the Red States, the blue areas are the cities. It's even more pronounced for coastal cities.

So when idiots point at a Red-Blue map of the country, it's important to point out the numbers of people depicted. The unmistakable truth is this: Conservatives are overwhelmingly preferred by dirt and livestock.

Southerners take a lot of hits here, but that's to be expected because of the voting and the accents of the visible politicians of the right. Just because a person's an otherwise decent pluralist doesn't mean he/she isn't racist, simplistic, xenophobic or quick to point fingers; assholism is an equal-opportunity affliction, after all.

Still, y'all got a little 'splainin' to do...

As usual, though, the people who take the heat aren't the ones who deserve it. Remember, too, that the proportions are not as extreme as some would have us believe. Also, liberals from Red areas often tend to be VERY liberal, too, and that's commendable as well.

[Ghost in the Machine]

60. Yeah it's hell being a Liberal surrounded by rightwing fundie nutbags

:hi:

[geardaddy]

74. Excellent points.

I live in the People's Republic of Minneapolis and it doesn't take much to be a liberal here, but if you live in the 6th district (BS Bachmann country) you have to work hard every day to live your beliefs.

And there's plenty of racism here in the Lesser Great White North. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard my rep (Keith Ellison) disparaged on for his race and his religion.

[EFerrari]

11. The John Birch Society had a large office near my bus stop

in Berkeley. These bastards are everywhere.

[virgogal]

32. The Birchers started in Belmont,MA in the fifties and they

were headquartered there for 30 years.

As you said,they are everywhere.

[taught_me_patience]

12. Is it the number of hate groups or the size of the hate groups?

I'm gonna guess the size of the hate groups in Tennessee and Georgia are a lot bigger than those in Delaware.

[DavidDvorkin]

24. That's another important consideration

I guess what we really need to compare, if we're going to do this kind of comparing, and it looks like we are, is the number of hateful bigots per, say, 100,000 people in each state.

I have no idea how one would get the data for that.

[bluestate10]

14. Hate groups is not all that is wrong with the south.

In general, southern populations vote in a way that is contrary to their best interest, all while puffing their chests out and considering themselves superior to parts of the country that are better educated, wealthier, healthier, and technologically more advanced.

[Cronus Protagonist]

20. Right on!

That's inconvenient truth.

[cali]

15. I'd rather look at the politics in the South

that's more relevant. And by and large, some of the worst politics and politicians do come out of the South.

[NoGOPZone]

21. Alaska must be a bastion of tolerance then

One hate group in such a large area.

[Anakin Skywalker]

44. The biggest one-person hate group that calls Alaska home is.....

you guessed it! The gorilla from Wasilla! The bitch with an itch! The murderer of moose!

[tularetom]

22. Toughen up

My grandfather was a lifelong resident of the state of Tennessee and although he was occasionally known to point out the state's faults, I don't believe he ever considered moving anywhere else. He used to say "thank god for Alabama, without it Tennessee would be at the bottom". (Sometimes he said Mississippi).

But I do notice a lot of my cousins get very defensive at any negative comments about the stateor tis elected representatives. And you have to admit there are a lot of really awful politicians that come from there.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

26. Spend less energy defending the South, more energy changing the South.

The ways of the South need to be challenged.

[Kalyke]

85. When are you moving down here so I can print out your voter's registration card?

:P

[bluerum]

27. I would argue land area is irrelevant. What are population densities?

I also wonder about total membership numbers. Anyone with even partial comprehension of the statistics involved in your statement, will immediately see the flaws in it. To try and advance such a point with that data is simply poor judgment.

But hey, nice try.

[Ghost in the Machine]

31. Alabama's Population, 2009 estimate 4,708,708 - New Jersey's Population, 2009 estimate 8,707,739

New Jersey has 4 million more reisdents than Alabama, and has 44 known hate groups as opposed to Alabama's 32... yet New Jersey is about 1/3rd the size of Alabama, Jersey has 2.5 million more residents than Tennessee, too. Only Georgia has a higher population, yet has less hate groups than Jersey...

Nice try on your part, too... :hi:

[Selatius]

87. As a Mississippian, I'd have to say population size matters far more than land-mass.

Comparing Alabama with New Jersey, Alabama still has more hate groups per capita than New Jersey, not that New Jersey is a paradise (IT ISN'T).

As far as the rest of the South goes, I really don't care. The notion of regionalism is something I look upon the same way with nationalists here or in some other country: I have no use for idiotic constructs. We're all in the same boat as far as worldwide problems go.

[Shandris]

95. It's not just population SIZE

but also population DENSITY.

[msongs]

28. evidently you are not including the baptists/southern baptists which severely skews the results lol

[pnwmom]

30. I have no idea what the actual numbers of members would be,

but wouldn't that figure be the important thing -- not how many separate hate groups?

And wouldn't population size be more important than land mass?

[MedicalAdmin]

34. Land mass comparisons are BS

Does anyone here remember the comparisons of Iraq and california and how California was MUCH more dangerous than Iraq if one compares their relative size.

If you are comparing a human statistic you need to compare it to another human statistic or ts complete BS.

However your underlying point that you feel defensive when you hear your home bashed bothers you. I've live all over the USA, Canada, south America and in the eu. In my experience asshats live everywhere. But ya gotta admit, the stupid is strong in the south. Disclaimer- Michelle Bachmann is my rep so what the fuck do I know.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. Aaaarrrgh.

How to correctly assess this OP and nbot break OVER 9000 DU rules in the process? How?

[JVS]

36. LOL. Seriously. It's almost like a setup.

[RB TexLa]

37. Maryland and DC, northern????

[niceypoo]

39. In which states do you see the most rebel flags?

[Zoeisright]

73. Bingo!!

Exactly so.

[Skip Intro]

40. It is inherently hypocritical to dump on people from an entire region...

because of the actions of some from that region.

Saying "all Southerners are xxxx" is no better than saying "all (insert ethnic group here) are xxxx." It's just another form of bigotry.

[Pithlet]

47. If that were the only thing being claimed as South bashing, that would be one thing.

But too often I see genuine valid criticism of the region slammed as South bashing, and it makes me cringe. I live in Tennessee and I see firsthand the problems we have here. I'll never understand why some will claim they're fighting the good fight, yet claim that things are no different down here than anywhere else. I think the hide the head in the sand strategy is the wrong way to go. Having lived in other regions, I know things aren't perfect everywhere. That doesn't mean you don't fix the problems you have at home, and defensively and reflexively scream "South basher!" at every person that validly critiques the problems facing your region. There are real and deep seated problems in the South and they affect us culturally and politically. It's the truth. It isn't South bashing to say so.

[Skip Intro]

51. Oh please, we've both been around DU long enough to have seen knee-jerk bashing of the South.

Which is what I think the OP is addressing.

There are aspects of every state and region of the nation that need to be addressed from our DU-shared points of view, and it is one thing to talk about those issues and aspects in the battlefield of ideas. But it is another thing entirely to paint with a broad brush an entire region of this nation as being (insert horrible characterization here).

And while I may not agree with hardly any of the recent politicians from my state (SC), I will note that Democrat Vincent Sheheen came within two points of winning the governorship of this state last month, in an election where repubs swept House, Senate, and Governor seats across the nation.

There are no groups of thought or situations present in the South that are not also present in other regions of the nation, or the world, for that matter. And many Southerners, like myself, are sick of being judged as a whole by the actions of a few.

[Pithlet]

53. Guess we just read them differently.

:shrug: I'm sorry. But the excuse that no region is perfect doesn't wash with me. Yes, there are people who broad brush and of course they're wrong. But it is far from all I've seen on DU. It is indeed different in the South. And it will be all the harder to fix if some on our side want to be blind to it. I've seen the bashing, but I've also seen plenty who are on our side and feel our pain. Somehow that gets ignored.

[Skip Intro]

61. We'll agree to disagree then.

Good tidings of joy, and comfort.

[madrchsod]

42. actually you`ll find these cockroaches in every state

there`s just as many here in illiois as anywhere else. they are not as out in the open or "organized" but they are here.

[Codeine]

45. Land mass? Really?

You've got to be shitting me.

[Ghost in the Machine]

58. Whose fault is it that you can't understand that populations exist inside those land masses?

That you can't come to grips with the fact that there are more hate groups in the north than there are in the South isn't my problem, is it?

[Codeine]

62. Land mass is utterly meaningless.

As is number of hate groups, to be honest. How many people are in each hate group? Total numbers of hate group members per capita might be a more reasonable measurement.

Many of the hate groups listed on the SPLC site are only a handful of people. In Georgia one of the groups ins a Black Separatist bookstore, for goodness sakes. In Mass three of the groups are Black Separatist groups (Nation of Islam counted twice for multiple city chapters) and one is an anti-gay group. Basically your measurement is meaningless -- bizarrely so, in fact.

[Ghost in the Machine]

64. Yeah, I addressed that point in another post, too..

Like listing 37 groups in Tennessee, when there are actually only 8 different groups, but they count them by factions in each county... I've been trying to find some numbers on membership, but I'm not doing to good so far ... do you have any idea how to go about finding out?

The point I was making, though, is that there is just as much, if not more, racism and hate in the north as is there is in the south, and I get tired of hearing about the "racist south" here. It's bullshit, and it's meaningless.

[w8liftinglady]

48. unfortunately,Texas rules..and it's not just size.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=TX

we have a big Klan meeting house about 15 miles from me.

[Ghost in the Machine]

56. Well not according to some people here..

With the population of Texas at 24,782,302 and 66 hate groups, that's only 1 group for every 375k people... look back thru some of the responses and see for yourself...

Hope you are doing well since your surgery and your return to work. Happy Holidays to you and yours :-)

Peace

[snooper2]

98. But we have the barbecue in Texas

So it cancels out :P

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. Not to mention that people in the South tend to be fatter, so hate groups PER VOLUME

are MUCH greater in the North.

We can't forget that.

[JanMichael]

50. thank you and kick. nt

[RegieRocker]

52. If you're a democrat and live in the South we feel your pain.

The fact remains the south is predominately made up of Republicans. They still believe in separation from the federal government. Hence wanting smaller government equals no government. I won't get into the racial thing.

[Dawson Leery]

54. Land Mass arguments on these matters are nonsense.

Laura Troll Ingraham made a similar argument that land mass justified the result of the 2000 election.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

57. This is a joke and you're engaging in ironic "South bashing," right?

What are the figures for the northernmost state? I bet Alaska has the fewest hate groups (by whatever count) in the nation, and it's as big as the entire South!

[JI7]

65. Doesn't the Republican Party in some areas count as Hate Groups ?

[The Midway Rebel]

66. Who in their right mind would bash...

Jazz, blues, country & western, rock & roll, western swing, zydeco, BBQ, Faulkner, Elvis, hospitality, gumbo, and gospel. Merry Christmas DU!

sister rosetta tharpe up above my head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ

[fascisthunter]

68. why did you leave out population?

[Forrest Greene]

69. Feeling A Little Guilty?

Maybe a little defensive, a little ashamed?

[bvar22]

70. The South is beautiful,

and belongs to ALL of us.
Inexpensive, fertile land
Long Growing Season
Mild Climate
Plenty of clean water
Many pristine, unpolluted, undeveloped areas

A shame to let "them" have it all.

---bvar22 & Starkraven
Helping turn The South Blue

[Ganja Ninja]

71. Hate isn't just restricted to the south.

It's more a rural phenomena than geographical. The farther you get away from urban areas the more prevalent it is.

[AspenRose]

75. I agree

Hence Caribou Barbie's claim to "real America" (read: Rural America minus both coasts and urban areas)

I paraphrase Malcolm X when he said the American South starts at the Canadian border.

[AlinPA]

78. Yes. Western PA will prove your point. The area has its share of hating, intolerant teabaggers.nt

[Mimosa]

72. I came across more racism times I visited New Jersey than living in the South

I used to be shocked by audacious racist prejudice I'd hear from the upper middle class and middle class Yankees I met at social events when I visited New Jersey. Thinking about it I realised it was because so many whites up there didn't live near blacks, hispanics, creoles or Asians. In New Orleans (especially) and other places in the South we tended to live closer to each other and share some cultural things. Mardi Fras, for instance and other festivals.

[NoGOPZone]

76. A HUGE oversimplification

Jersey City is one of the most racially diverse cities on the continental United States.

http://www.city-data.com/top35.html

There are several ethnic and cultural groups represented in the state. True, some of these live in enclaves, but there are also significant numbers living in the suburban white mainstream.

I think other posters have nailed it when they say its more of an urban and rural thing than anything else. Of course, that would imply that there are parts of NJ that are more rural than most people are willing to admit. ;-)

[AspenRose]

77. The difference between northern racism and southern racism

I've heard it said and there may be a grain of truth to it...though this may have been more the case in the past than in recent days...

In the North: Blacks could have the same educational, occupational and economic opportunities as whites, but achieved in different circles, and don't fraternize or live next to each other. It is segregated and whites prefer it that way.

In the South: Blacks and whites may live near each other, go to school, be friendly with each other, etc. but don't let a black person get an opportunity or a privilege that "belongs" by culture and tradition to a white person, because blacks should "know their place."

[Kalyke]

79. That's not true.

I live in a predominately white, middle-manager, blue-collar suburban neighborhood in a Tennessee city - the schools are nice and our oasis tends to vote Democratic and, we also have some of the most eclectic racial mix in our schools than does the inner city.

[AspenRose]

81. *sigh*

"...though this may have been more the case in the past than in recent days..."

"...Blacks and whites may live near each other, go to school, be friendly with each other, etc."

That sounds exactly like what you explained, and you're in TN. So it sounds like we're in agreement on that point.

Kids will go to school with "them" but not live near "them" as you are in a predominately white neighborhood. Line's got to be drawn somewhere with some people.

And being a democrat does not absolve one of racism. (See Ferraro, Geraldine)

[Kalyke]

84. Ah... missed my point, completely.

MY neighborhood is mostly white. The school district I live in is NOT.

And the district, sister, ain't that damn big. When I say MY neighborhood, I'm literally talking about five city blocks. In total, my MIDDLE SCHOOL neighborhood, which I still live and purchase from (I work on the other side of town - because that's where the jobs are) includes a Mexican neighborhood, a "ghetto" (in quotes because it's called that here, but it's about as "ghetto" as Fat Albert's neighborhood), a Russian community, the most accepting community for gays AND, get this, a Church of God community.

My son's birthday parties are a primer in eclectic.

[Mimosa]

80. That's an accurate description of the way it used to be, Aspen Rose

And sometimes still is.

In New Jersey I had experienced how Newark is considered black, where 'they' live. And whites live 20 miles away in suburbs.

[AspenRose]

83. It is slowly changing, but some places still have that kind of mentality

firmly entrenched, and it will take longer to break.

[K8-EEE]

82. The number of hate groups is irrelevant

Four haters could each start their own hate group or all belong to the same one, what's the diff?

It's the percentage of Freepers who ALWAYS seem to vote for the GOP agenda BS in the South that make me want to kiss the ground here in CA.

That is not a bash at nice progressive Southern people with whom I have no beef...they fight the good fight, and much steeper fight there than elsewhere.

[revolution breeze]

89. I think the bigger problem is people

who have never been to the South making assumptions about the South based on stereotypes. I have lived all over the United States as well as traveled abroad and lived with family in France for a year. I find my area of Louisiana to be one of the most diverse areas I have ever been too, as well as the most accepting and forward thinking.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Bashing and confusion are easily mistaken.

I don't understand coal miners with a median family income of $40,000 who vote Republican because they are overcome with concern that estates of $10 million+ might not be passed to heirs tax free.

The fact that 90% of some counties in Tennesee fit this demographic is really baffling. How do you reach them? Since a calculator won't work, I'm open to suggestions.

[Joe Fields]

93. Why do you let things like this bother you so much?

There is a great deal of info you left out, btw.

How large are the hate groups in each state? How active are they? Just exactly what trouble have they caused? How do they promote their hate?

Just a few questions for thought.

[WiffenPoof]

94. Sorry, I've Tried....

I've tried very hard over the years to rid myself of my distain for the South. Maybe I need to try harder.

My daughter (now 25) moved to the South for a job. She lasted less than a year before she moved back to CA.

I will keep trying to understand why they think they way they do and act the way they do.

-PLA

[Heidi]

96. I was born in Arkansas, raised in Oklahoma and Kentucky. Your anger is misdirected.

We who were raised in the south have a lot of apologizing to do and plenty of explaining to do. We need to reshape and redirect sentiment in the South and stop going to battle with states who were right side of justice a hell of a lot sooner than we were. That's how life is. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. We were wrong. The pointing finger, in terms of history, has been accurate. We don't have to be binary, Ghost. Even we southerners can multi-task: we can do the right thing (including cowboying up to our own history) while calling out hypocrisy where we find it, North or South.

Really, it's about justice v. oppression. Not South v. North. THAT war is over.

[Cutatious]

99. Well, the plethora of northern hatred of the southern states

helps keep the balance of hate. Hate will never be a virtue so my suggestion is to remove it whenever possible.

[Lucian]

100. Argument fail.

-1

[pinboy3niner]

102. Region-bashing is against the rules here

Same for state-bashing or any kind of broad-brush attack. If you are seeing that kind of crap here, I don't blame you for feeling offended.

[HuckleB]

103. This is selective data.

What are the respective sizes of these hate groups, how are hate groups determined, and what are the voting patterns of said states?