Freelancing? Clinton tapped Wisner(GHWBman). Kerry had Obama's backing to counter Clinton/Wisner.

[blm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/world/middleeast/13diplomacy.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

>>>>>
Mr. Obama was furious, and it did not help that his secretary of state, Hillary Rodham Clinton, Mr. Wisner’s key backer, was publicly warning that any credible transition would take time — even as Mr. Obama was demanding that change in Egypt begin right away.

Seething about coverage that made it look as if the administration were protecting a dictator and ignoring the pleas of the youths of Cairo, the president “made it clear that this was not the message we should be delivering,” said one official who was present. He told Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. to take a hard line with his Egyptian counterpart, and he pushed Senator John Kerry to counter the message from Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Wisner when he appeared on a Sunday talk show the next day.

The trouble in sending a clear message was another example of how divided Mr. Obama’s foreign policy team remains. A president who himself is often torn between idealism and pragmatism was navigating the counsel of a traditional foreign policy establishment led by Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Biden and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, against that of a next-generation White House staff who worried that the American preoccupation with stability could put a historic president on the wrong side of history.
>>>>>

Status quo politicians who accepted and protect GHWBush's foreign policy agenda the last 5 decades need to step aside, imo.

[DURHAM D]

1. Poor Johnny One Note...

[Inuca]

2. Snarky, I am sure

but I do not even know what it means. Do you?

[blm]

25. It's their way of feeling good about their rosy perceptions of HRC. I don't mind being their target

because it usually makes for another opportunity to get the truth out to those who can handle it.

Let's face it...the media has made sure many people in BOTH parties view politics as sports.

[blm]

3. Yes. When the truth doesn't change, consistency in acknowledging truth should be a desirable trait.

Your mileage may vary.

[karynnj]

13. Did you read the article?

I agree that BLM took the worst quote as regards Hillary. There is another comment that the President was furious at Wizner's comment - not Clinton's.

But, the overall article, does show that Clinton was on the wrong side of history here. She was very slow to accept that it could be right for the Egyptian people in the streets to force out Mubarak - and she was very quick to accept Suliman, who was likely worse than Mubarak!

The disturbing thing here is that many in the administration did not follow the President's lead. The fact is that their concerns should have remained behind closed doors. If their objections were strongly enough held, they could have resigned. They were what led to the Obama looking indecisive here.

Kerry's MTP comments were fantastic. He spoke of the Obama policy being crsytal clear from day one - and completely denied that Wizner spoke for the President. I was surprised at the time that he so forcefully denied it was Obama's policy - so this makes sense. Kerry also did one other thing - after referring to his own excellent speech at Doha over a year ago, he spoke of HRC giving a speech 3 weeks ago saying that reforms were needed. Doing that he gave Clinton huge cover as well as Obama.

[Octafish]

4. Old money and new.

Guess they're not on the same wavelength.

You, blm, and I, are another matter.

[blm]

5. And why I never wanted Clinton as SoS. We need a foreign policy completely APART from Poppy Bush's

.

[midnight]

8. Hmmm... I guess not...

[WinkyDink]

6. He could always ask for resignations.

[DURHAM D]

7. Why? It worked out well, so far. nt

[blm]

39. In your view did it work out BECAUSE of Clinton's position or in spite of it?

.

[DURHAM D]

40. pathetic...

[blm]

41. Well, DD, I do understand your reply, but, maybe someday you'll give the NSA a look and change your

mind.

[blm]

10. That'd be great, but, too many Dems have a perception in their head they can't get past

when it comes to the Clintons. Those of us who have bothered with the contents of the National Security Archives usually maintain an opposite viewpoint.

[leveymg]

9. Same crew has been running foreign policy since 1947. Wisner is in the direct line of succession

that goes back to the Dulles Brothers, George Kennan, Kermit Roosevelt, Richard Helms, Henry Kissinger, James Baker, George Bush, Sr., and all the other patrician dirty-tricksters and covert operators who have dragged this country down into just another fallen empire.

[blm]

14. And now we're finally watching it play out. Exactly what I *thought* was happening behind the scenes

turned out to be pretty damn close to exactly what happened.

Fucking corporate media will still try to spin this, though, to protect their own complicity of the last 5 decades.

Wikileaks helped bring these US backed dictators down, in my view.

[leveymg]

19. Wikileaks and social media are turning out to be pleasant surprises.

We're seeing the grass and wildflowers growing up through the cracks in the concrete. It's reassuring to see the ingenuity and resolve of human beings who aren't entirely lulled into narcosis by corporate media and the illusions of two-party politics.

Even we Americans are capable of bottom-up revolution and reinvention, when enough of us realize it's possible and necessary to our survival.

[blm]

22. The people in these regions are seeing the 'leaders' as the greedy puppets for BushInc they've been.

Finally...after all these decades. I wonder when more AMERICANS will wise up to the manipulations of both parties by Poppy Bush and the powerful elite.

[leveymg]

24. The generalized dissatisfaction here with Obama is a good indicator that the old way isn't cutting

it anymore. For a brief moment in '08 the illusion of party politics worked again, but has gone dim. It's not likely to be reignited - all those millions of people working together in that election, all that energy and hope for real change is still out there, it just needs to regain some focus. I believe there will be some sort of refocusing event, soon, in America.

[blm]

27. Fortunately, Egypt should prove that Obama need not RELY on establishment views anymore.

Status quo that accomodated global fascist agenda needs to go.

[leveymg]

29. 95% of all usable intel is open source. The rest is obtained by blackmail and torture, but is less

reliable and a whole lot more expensive to keep generating.

The relative competitive disadvantage of empire - maybe, that should be lesson from this.

[blm]

37. If Americans would actually READ what they DO have access to thanks to National Security Archives

this nation would be in a more constant state of real progress.

[leveymg]

46. I agree with both statements. An informed voter is the only safeguard of democracy.

If we simply studied ancient history and read the classics in America, the way that the British "public school" (private boarding schools like Eton, Harrow, Winchester) students still do, we'd be more familiar with the old con games being played.

A middle-class educated in history and politics, finance and economics would be truly dangerous to the oligarchy, who stay oligarchs by studying such things (or paying those who have).

[blm]

52. And THAT is why BushInc's fascist cronies bought up all available media the last 3 decades.

That is why there will never be another IranContra or BCCI type of investigation. Unless we go Egypt in this country. Walk like an Egyptian, indeed.

[DCKit]

44. +1

It's hard to accept the mantle of "Conspiracy Theorist Nutbag" when you keep being proved right.

Proof of TPTB has always been one of the biggest CTs in history. Now we have that proof, embodied in the existence of a single man, renowned fixer for the NSA, CIA and corpAmerica, and the M$M is silent as ever.

On a good note, I don't think Mr. Wisner will be able to travel much from here on out without much scrutiny, and his extensive talents/contacts will not easily be replaced.

[blm]

45. Wow...didn't think of that. Clinton-Wisner's effort may invite scrutiny from those who previously

assumed she was a progressive and honest broker in these matters.

[hootinholler]

43. Not easy being green

Dang, they got a thing goin on with the Kermits.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you mean Kermit Jr. who took down Mosaddeq. Thanks! I hadn't heard of him before.

Now to have a look at George...

-Hoot

[Ricky Ricardo]

11. The trouble in sending a clear message is that the President

kept voting "Present."

Old habits die hard.

[DevonRex]

12. Welcome to DU.

:eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

15. Oh my. Nice to see someone dusted off the "he voted present" bs.

I haven't heard that one since 2008.

[Ricky Ricardo]

17. I'm amazed that no one made the observation about his performance

during the healthcare debate.

But I wasn't here to do it myself.

[DevonRex]

18. You weren't here?

[Ricky Ricardo]

23. How slavish do you have to be to post here?

I joined to thank Catherina et al.

[DevonRex]

34. Ah. Well,

the healthcare debates were quite contentious here. I wouldn't know the answer to your slavish question.

[Ricky Ricardo]

36. I may have done some reading here -- not much. But I recall your point.

Disappointing. I have lost patience with the President, I admit.

But then, I am a Liberal.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

16. "Present" was a legitimate vote in the Illinois and it was used

to convey specific things that a yes or no couldn't.

Obama NEVER voted "present" in the Senate where such a vote would be meaningless.

[PBS Poll-435]

20. I have been worried since Hillary Clinton was named Lead Teller at BCCI

I am convinced that she didn't open accounts correctly, forged signature cards, and didn't give service with a smile.














just in case... : DERP:, I mean :sarcasm:

[leveymg]

28. With G.H.W. the Chairman. Literally. Bush, Sr. and Kamal Adham created BCCI to finance the

the "Safari Club" arrangement that privatized the CIA in 1974 using Saudi petrodollars. Bush literally laid the groundwork as CIA Director and as Director of First International Bancshares, Houston, London and Luxemborg in the period right after he was fired by Jimmy Carter. Bush and Kamal laid the groundwork for the systematic buyout, greenmailing and takeover of the US and UK governments using the Yamamah slush-funds and looted western banks in the 1980s, 1990s through the present.

The Clintons were essential to getting the operation going and giving it a secure base in the United States. One should also thank the assistance of financial intermediaries such as the Stephens, Waltons, Bakers, Allbritons, etc. for making this colonization and takover possible. There's plenty of credit to go around.

[blm]

32. Not many have wrapped their brains around Bush-Stephens-Clinton and BCCI matters, leveymg.

But, thanks for using the opportunity to educate.

[leveymg]

33. I'm sure there's a Pulitzer prize or an

early retirement (literal of professional) in there for any journalist who tries. The dimly-lit and booby-trapped subterranean world of spook finance is the forbidden zone of American journalism. I can't think of too many who have come back out of that area.

[blm]

42. Yep. That 5% of hidden documentation would set this nation free for real.

Along with the greater part of the rest of the world.

[Cleita]

26. I agree. I don't think we should be keeping any policies

started by numbers 41 and 43 Presidents because for the most part they are toxic to the majority of Americans. I also believe our traditional foreign policy of imperialism needs to go the way of the Dodo bird.

[blm]

30. I certainly hope our view on that is the one that prevails in the long run, Cleita. I think it will.

I think Obama learned here that establishment foreign policy views are NOT reliable or needed in these times.

[Cleita]

31. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. n/t

[EFerrari]

35. If they all stepped aside, who would run the government?

lol

[blm]

38. Hopefully, the voices who supported protestors over Mubarak will become the foreign policy leaders

in Obama's circle.

[Beacool]

47. Why didn't you quote this portion?

Despite the fervor on the streets of Cairo, and Mr. Obama’s occasional tough language, the president always took a pragmatic view of how to use America’s limited influence over change in Egypt. He was not in disagreement with the positions of Mr. Wisner and Mrs. Clinton about how long transition would take. But he apparently feared that saying so openly would reveal that the United States was not in total sync with the protesters, and was indeed putting its strategic interests first. Making that too clear would not only anger the crowds, it could give Mr. Mubarak a reason to cling to power and a pretext to crush the revolution.

-----

Mrs. Clinton and some of her State Department subordinates wanted to move cautiously, and reassure allies they were not being abandoned, in part influenced by daily calls from Israel, Saudi Arabia and others who feared an Egypt without Mr. Mubarak would destabilize the entire region. Some were nervous because they perceived that the United States had been a cheerleader for the Tunisia protesters.

------

For her part, Mrs. Clinton, too, has called for radical change in the Arab world. In January, on a trip to Qatar, she issued a scathing critique of Arab leaders, saying their countries risked “sinking into the sand” if they did not undertake swift political reforms. She said that stagnant economies and the bulge in the youth population was a recipe for the kind of unrest that later convulsed Tunisia and Egypt. And during a meeting at the White House on Jan. 29, officials said, Mrs. Clinton pushed for the administration to adopt language that would clearly lay the groundwork for Mr. Mubarak’s departure.

But she also expressed concern later that a hasty exit of Mr. Mubarak could complicate Egypt’s transition to democracy given the lack of a political culture there. Added to that, many foreign policy experts still worry that Egyptians are ultimately faced with a choice between the military on one side and the Muslim Brotherhood, an Islamist group, on the other.

:eyes:

Any chance to bash Clinton, right?

[blm]

49. Because she and her husband have a history of siding with GHWBush foreign policy agenda and Wisner

being tapped is part of that lengthy and ONGOING story. She sided WITH Wisner in the overall debate. That she makes sure that she is seen publically as a more moderate voice in the debate is typical. Like when she came out 'publically' for filibustering Alito when behind closed doors of the Senate Caucus she and Schumer had spoken forcefully against filibustering Alito.

Her act is old with me. I don't wear rose-colored glasses when I read anything about our government's dealings in the world because I understand the many decades of dealings that you always seem to manage to skip over in these exchanges. Historical context is everything.

BTW...the linked article was there for everyone to read...what were your feelings about her backing of Wisner and what WAS posted here? Or don't you read and comment on THAT portion of the story? If you're going to accuse someone of being selective you best not be selective yourself, eh?

[Beacool]

50. Oh please, you despise the Clintons no matter their position on any subject.

As part of her job she has to take into consideration our interests in the region and our need not to destabilized the area. Emotions are great, but a clear head is what was needed. Mubarak may be out, and good riddance, but what will come after him? Will the military rulers be any better than Mubarak? If they have free elections, will the new rulers view the US favorably?

:shrug:

[blm]

51. You defend the Clintons no matter their position. I leave be many a proClinton thread when I agree

with what they may have said or done. You live in denial that they have had a long and steady connection to Poppy Bush and his foreign policy agenda that helped create the turmoil we've been witnessing for years now. You ignore that ENORMOUS elephant in the room as you embrace the chore of shooting at ants.