Why are our jobs being outsourced?

[Ohio Joe]

I am pretty confused on this... I really do not understand the whole issue. OK... There is the whole saving money that attracts companies into doing it, I get that... but... Should this not be an easy thing for our government to fix? Throw some kind of damn tax on it so it is no longer cheaper? Give some incentive to keep jobs here? WTF... Why is this not being fixed?

[Rage for Order]

1. I doubt Americans would do factory work anymore

Long hours on your feet, monotonous, mind-numbing work, doing the same thing over and over and over, little chance for advancement. People won't sign up for that.

[madokie]

3. Thats total bullshit

and you should know that.

[Rage for Order]

13. I actually agree with you

My statement is total bullshit. However, if I were to say the same thing regarding illegal immigrants working at restaurants, meat processing plants, construction, farms, etc there would be no shortage of people who would agree that Americans just won't do that kind of work. It's an interesting disconnect.

[Brickbat]

16. Sure, Americans generally "won't do 'that kind' of work" --

-- for "those kind" of wages.

[Rage for Order]

18. Factory work wouldn't pay much, if any, more than those other jobs

If factories came back to the US wages for these jobs would most likely be in the $12 - $15 hour range. I know plenty of Americans who would work for $25,000 - $30,000 a year, myself included. I've done so in the past, and I would do it again.

[KG]

19. i work in a factory. i wish i made 12-15

[MadHound]

27. Wow, first of all you're displaying a huge amount of ignorance about pay scales

Factory work generally compensates at rates starting at around $9/hr, plus at least a modicum of benefits. Depending on what industry you're in, starting pay can range upwards of $20/hr.

Meanwhile, farm labor is generally seasonal, paid on a per diem basis, and has no benefits. Meat processing plants, long dependent upon illegal immigrant labor, pays wages that top out at minimum wage to start, and no benefits. This story is repeated across construction, restaurants and other such industries.

You're correct, no American citizen is going to work a job that starts below minimum wage. However given our slack labor market, I imagine that if employers were actually forced to pay competitive wages, plenty of people would indeed work in those areas. I know many, many construction workers who would still love to work in the field. But employers have employed illegal immigrants to bring the pay scale down to the point where you can't feed or support a family.

Enforce the labor laws concerning employing illegal immigrants. Force the employers to a payscale that is above minimum wage, a payscale that is adequate compensation for the job being performed, and yes, American citizens will work those jobs.

[Go2Peace]

76. Factory work pay is low because there are not enough jobs. More factory work =better pay

I have watched lots of "traditional" jobs drop in salary. Because people need work and they can get them at that price. But these jobs can pay a living wage. Bring them back and wages will go back up as the economy heals.

Going to need tariffs to do it though. Simple economics.

[dflprincess]

87. Factory work pays low wages because there aren't enough unions

Meat-packing plants used to pay good wages until the unions were broken and the companies started actively recruiting workers from Central & South America.

[FreakinDJ]

30. Great - Now your channeling McCain

is that the best excuse you can come up with for exposing RATpubliCON Talking Points

[Rage for Order]

48. How am I channeling McCain?

McCain doesn't think Americans would do farm work (or other low-skill work) no matter how much you paid them. Remember his line that Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for $50 hour ($100,000 year)? I actually believe Americans will do a great number of low-skill jobs, and it won't take $50 hour to get them to do those jobs.

[madokie]

53. In my world I never seen any of those jobs going unfilled without using illegal immigrants

until we started fucking up the south americans lives to where they were forced to come here so they could feed families. by coming in the middle of the night they were almost guaranteed to be abused, ie low wages, no beniifits etc. Its sad all the way around. In the mean time our brothers and sisters have to compete with those lower wages and less benifits in order to keep their jobs. that part sucks big time.

I think it would do you good to give what you believe in concerning this a good look over and see if maybe you can't see it from the others eyes.

[Rage for Order]

70. And in the world of the Old South only slaves picked cotton

What's your point? It's time to shift the paradigm. I've seen plenty of people who aren't illegal aliens working construction, doing gardening/landscaping, and working in restaurants.

[madokie]

54. quick on the finger, sorry

[Hello_Kitty]

66. Yep. There's a lot of unexamined elitism and racism among progressives on this.

"I'd never do grueling work on a farm for shitty pay but those people loooooove to do it and we should let them because gosh darn it cheap tomatoes are great!"

[sabrina 1]

67. If there was a law making it mandatory to pay anyone, including

illegals, a basic livable minimum wage, Americans could compete with the cheap labor extracted from those who afraid to make those demands themselves.

It is NOT that Americans won't do those jobs, it is that they cannot work for a $1.00 per hr or whatever slave wages are paid to undocumented workers.

There is no disconnect, unless you truly think that Americans could stay in their homes and feed their families competing with the wages paid to undocumented workers. THAT is the disconnect, the refusal to see the real problem. All workers should be paid a fair wage, here and in those countries where our greedy Corps are taking U.S. jobs.

It is our labor laws that create these problems. Fix them and plenty of workers will show up for the jobs you mention. They certainly were doing so for generations until we got Global Capitalism making sure to keep the poor in oppressive countries working for slave wages.

[Rage for Order]

68. When stated unemployment is over 9%...

With the real unemployment/underemployment rate nearly double that, there should be zero tolerance for the importing of ANY workers, legal or illegal, for any type of work. No H-1B visas, no illegal manual laborers from south of the border. If you can't get someone to do your work for $6 an hour then raise the wage to $7 an hour. If nobody does it at $7 then raise it to $8, and so on until the jobs are filled. The argument of "are you willing to pay X dollars more for lettuce/tomatoes/restaurant?" is a non-starter. Yes, I am willing to pay more for products provided the additional cost goes to treating the workers decently rather than straight to the employer's bottom line.

[krabigirl]

65. I agree. Total bs.

[rucky]

4. Come to my area.

They'll like up in droves for a factory job. They won't love their jobs, but unemployment is no picnic, either.

[Ohio Joe]

5. I'll do it

I've been out of work for almost 2.5 years, I'll take anything and I bet a lot of others in my situation would as well. There is also a lot more then manufacturing that is being outsourced as well, I really would like my IT job to come back to this country.

[ananda]

6. Actually they would..

.. if they had the chance.

[bettyellen]

7. that's the WR meme being spread by people who say we shld all be happy w/ service jobs......

Service jobs that feature lower pay and long hours on your feet, monotonous, mind-numbing work, doing the same thing over and over and over, little chance for advancement.

[golddigger]

8. What utter total "BULLSHIT". WTF?

[HereSince1628]

9. I respectfully and completely disagree with that opinion.

People working for WalMart (America's current biggest private employer) spend long hours on their feet, do monotonous, mind-numbing work, that largely involves doing the same thing over and over and over, and have very little chance for advancement (even advancement to full time employment with benefits...

People DO sign up for that.

[sad sally]

78. Thank you!

Sometimes people who sit in a chair, free to get up and go to the bathroom, stretch, walk to the cubie down the hall, text their friends, shop on line, read blogs...they forget all the sales people who stand in one place for hours on end, smiling (even though it may be forced), repeating the company slogan of the day, putting up with rude customers who won't acknowledge there's a person on the other side of the aisle - still glad to have a job, glad to have a paycheck.

[pacalo]

10. My sore feet would prove otherwise.

[FreakinDJ]

20. Are you on DRUGS

[Rage for Order]

23. I'll take the 5th on that question

But please see my response in post # 13

[Ohio Joe]

37. No but I drink heavily.

[PatSeg]

39. I've had friends who did factory work

and actually they loved it. The pay wasn't great, few or no benefits, and there were frequent layoffs, but there was a special camaraderie among the employees that often spilled over into their personal lives. For nineteen years I lived a block away from an industrial park, so I knew a lot of factory workers. Many had to go into retail as more and more companies closed and the jobs dried up. The pay, hours, and benefits in retail were even worse. If given the opportunity to return to factory work, they'd take it in a heartbeat.

[SoCalDem]

50. Um, yes they will...IF they are paid a decent wage & have benefits

Work is ...well....WORK.. If you are lucky enough/smart enough/whatever enough to get a "great" job with great pay, easy working conditions, fantastic compensation, that;s wonderful, but many jobs just need doing, and many people need jobs.

It's fiinding the right "fit" that has always been the problem.

EmployERS always want to pay the LEAST that they have to, because THEIR profit comes after their expenses. Workers are an "expense". Once upon a time, when the rest of the world was a disorganized, mostly destroyed mess, we were the 800 lb gorilla in the room. If a manufacturer (here) made a product, he HAD to used labor HERE, and unions made sure the workers were making decent wages.

Once other areas of the world became politically stable enough, and had millions of people eager to work for whatever they could get, it was not a mystery to see why US company-owners started looking elsewhere for "cheaper workforces".

All you have to do is to look at the 1970's & 80's here. Once the EPA was fully operational, LOTS of old factories up north had a big decision on their hands. Repair/update those hulking old places (some built in the previous century) to make them stop polluting so much, or shut them down/pay huge fines.

OR they could accept the "generous offers" from our SunBelt states, to "re-locate" down south...where co-incidentally there were few if any real labor laws in operation there.

That worked for a while, until they saw they could make even MORE by shipping the whole operation abroad..without all those prying eyes and nosy bureaucrats pestering them about pollution & workplace safety issues.

People will do "dirty-work"...IF they get paid well.

What they will NOT do, is to trade their future-health and current sanity for peanuts.

[Hello_Kitty]

58. Luckily "those people" don't mind that sort of work. And for very low pay!

[Dappleganger]

62. I've done factory work until the plant was shut down and moved to Mexico.

Actually, a significant part of our small town worked there until it shut down. Now the only left is a Walmart with part-time shit wages several towns away.

Your assertion is pure bullshit of the goat variety.

[dionysus]

69. wouldn't that be goatshit?

[sabrina 1]

64. What utter nonsense, I know plenty of people who would be glad

to work in a factory, as many Americans did for generations, in order to be able to feed their families.

Who do you think built this country if it wasn't Americans working in factories and on farms and wherever there was work to be done?

Tax the Corps who are outsourcing jobs and things will change for this country. They are treasonous bastards who care nothing for their country, only about the bottom line. And we continue to reward them for this, most recently by extending the Bush Tax Cuts which have already cost this country over 2 trillion dollars and will cost it over 700 billion over the next two years, without a single condition placed on them for this gift from the American people.

[backwoodsbob]

77. ummmm

I do factory work..do I count or an I just some uneducated hick?

[Little Star]

79. What the hell America do you live in? Certainly not the same one I live in!

Or did you just for get the :sarcasm: ???

[Blue_In_AK]

95. I think you're wrong.

I'll bet if the workers had a real stake in the success of the company, and if they were treated with dignity and respect, a lot of people would be happy for factory work.

[rucky]

2. because of corporate influence of congress.

fix that, and yes, the job situation will improve.

[Ohio Joe]

11. I don't buy that

The corporations don't care, they just want the biggest profits... So we make it more pofitable to keep jobs here... no? More Americans at work... more Americans buying things... no?

[jp11]

33. You can't do that, punish them with taxes/tariffs/etc for importing their goods

AND pay americans the minimum wage let alone livable wages/benefits. There will be some jobs that have to stay but many more will be shed in favor of automation (machines don't get paid) and cheaper foreign labor.

Why would a company want to make and employ americans to sell to who americans then have to have additional facilities in other countries to make goods to sell in other markets? The foreign site is cheaper for them to employ and can let them sell those goods all over the world at higher profits per item, whereas the american produced goods have higher costs associated with them.

Corporations are looking at short sighted goals of profit, they don't see that paying people a decent wage lets them spend that on their goods. They'd rather pay people less, downsize, move jobs overseas and make more money through saving 'expensive costs' and expanding their markets. The real problem is one of pure greed, you make .50 on the dollar but if you do X you can make .60 on the dollar and if you do Y you can make .75 on the dollar and so it goes trying to maximize profits never mind that your 'original' market might 'dry up' because you 'wisely' have been moving into other emerging markets to more than make up for that.

[Ohio Joe]

35. I was afraid that was it

Just plain bad business, short sighted greed over long term success.

[pacalo]

14. Exactly. Corporations outsource for the sake of having to pay less taxes & much lower wages &

benefits, not to mention employee perks. They want slaves so that the CEOs can pocket the profits.

[kywildcat]

22. ding ding ding-we have a winner

This is it exactly-has nothing to do with what americans are willing or unwilling to do. At our lowest point of unemployment I was a temp manager who had no shortage of people (americans and non) who lined up for temp factory jobs.
Outsourcing is entirely about driving down wages in the US. The countries that are absorbing 'american' jobs are now having wage issues; ie-turnover and wages being driven higher and higher by more and more companies that see a large population which they can exploit. The population realizes pretty quickly that if company x will pay 10 cents a day, then company y will pay 15 cents a day, and the migration begins-so company x then moves operations to another third world rat hole and exploits their poverty and desperation.
And our taxes subsidize this.
CEO's-leadership in general generate massive wealth-for themselves-retire-isolate themselves and never feel the impact of the Wharton School of Business ethics course generated decisions that they made.

[bvar22]

63. AND avoid Environmental and Human Rights protections.

*

[pacalo]

83. And OSHA oversight & requirements.

[mmonk]

12. Because politicians are paid by private money to make it happen

[Ohio Joe]

15. I get that but it makes no sense....

Would it not make more sense to keep Americans employed? Such high un-employment can not be good for the bottom line for companies... can it? Much higher sales at a lower profit sounds like a better deal to me... no?

[Jim__]

17. Where do the higher sales come from?

Say your company builds furniture in the US, using US labor. All your competitors make furniture overseas. Which furniture do you think will sell more, the expensive American-made furniture or the cheaper foreign-made furniture?

[My Good Babushka]

24. If a product is well-made people will buy it.

People buy products made in Germany because of their excellent craftsmanship and engineering.

[Starry Messenger]

26. I think that furniture sells more because of low wages

because there are fewer jobs, employers can set lower wages which leads to less spending power, which means you have to buy crap to live within your means. Vicious cycle.

[Ohio Joe]

34. yes, yes, I get that

But why does our government not simply even out the cost, making it better to keep jobs here? One of our biggest issues is jobs and it seems it would not be that hard to do something to get them back in this country... But we do nothing... This is what I do not get.

[mmonk]

25. The companies sell globally.

Despite the consumerism of our society, they make plenty in worldwide sales.

[seabeyond]

21. u.s. still produces more than anywhere else. what use to take 100 people take 10 today.

interesting fact i was not aware of that i learned recently.

[LeFleur1]

31. Union Busting

When corporations can pay the same wages here as they pay in China they might bring the jobs back.
But our way of life will not be the same.
And yes, the people we have elected to run our government are on the take to make that happen.
It's sickening.
The CEOs will never never have a big enough salary. The word enough is not in their vocabulary.
We have a problem. The problem stems from the fact that although the people 'elect' these representatives and senators, too many of those representatives and senators do not work for the people. They just talk as if they do. We are a gullible bunch of voters.

The voters don't seem to see the real problem when they elect flakes to run our government. They think the problem is social programs. It is not.
The problem is that the rich do not want to pay their share of the taxes. We (middle class) have been carrying businesses on our backs for years and where are we now?

George Bush devastated this country by charging everything, including wars. He wanted everything privatized, and if it doesn't make a profit the government is to step in and fund it. He was the worst thing to happen to our country and it seems as though we aren't doing too much to make it right, if that is even possible. People who don't work, don't pay taxes, so we dig ourselves deeper and deeper into the hole he started.

[seabeyond]

38. i agree with that and much more. still, the fact u.s. is still producing significantly more than

anywhere else is aprt of the issue. with robotics....

i was throwing it out for people not aware, like i was not aware not long ago. it is part of the equation

[former9thward]

40. It was Clinton who put through NAFTA not Bush.

That agreement outsourced millions of jobs.

[pampango]

55. We actually have trade more with Europe and have a bigger deficit with them.

Mexico: $394 billion in trade with a $66 billion deficit,
The EU: $559 billion in trade with a $80 billion deficit.

Our trade with Mexico might have a big deficit even without NAFTA, as our experience with the EU proves.

BTW, the EU has a "free trade" agreement with Mexico as we do. The rich countries of western Europe (like the UK, Germany and France) also have "free trade" with their European versions of Mexico, i.e. Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. While European per capita incomes are not as high, in general, as that of the US their distribution of income is much, much better than ours plus their effective safety nets and health care mean that most European live better lives than Americans.

And all developed countries have been losing manufacturing employment for decades for long before there were any "free trade" agreements.

[former9thward]

59. Trade and jobs are two different things.

Yes we have a great amount of trade with Europe but our jobs are not primarily being outsourced there. That is what NAFTA and similar agreements make it much easier to do that. Manufacturing is just one of the sectors that has been outsourced. Information has been as well as other sectors.

[Elwood P Dowd]

71. Clinton did push through the implementing legislation, but it was Bush and USTR Carla Hills

who negotiated and signed the actual agreement prior to Clinton taking office in 1993. I think it was December 1992 when it was completed and finally signed. The implementing legislation to make it law was passed in November 1993. A small minority of Dems went with Clinton --
Bill Bradley and Bill Richardson were two of the more vocal supporters.

[former9thward]

75. And Al Gore was the biggest supporter in his debate with H Ross Perot.

[raccoon]

102. And, people who work at Wal-Mart don't pay nearly as much taxes as those who used to work

in well-paid jobs.

[polichick]

28. It's not being fixed because our "leaders" are corporate whores. nt

[Starry Messenger]

29. I don't think there is any reasoning behind it.

That's the trouble with a free market system. The marketplace dictates all, and no central planning means that companies can do what they like even if it means complete anarchy. That's why the current situation is so terrifying. We see the unemployment and poverty numbers swelling with our own eyes: the government just "adjusts" those numbers to make everything look like things are better. They just think the problem is just going to go away. I guess the TARP and stimulus things were supposed to be the solution, but it didn't go far enough and there weren't enough incentives to create jobs here.

[Liberal In Texas]

32. Corporations get tax BREAKS to send job overseas.

In the last congress dems introduced a bill to end the tax breaks and give tax incentives to companies that hired here. Guess who defeated it?

That's right, our good caring friends, the repukes. Along with strong opposition and lobbying by the C of C.

[mmonk]

36. Yep. They should be penalized, not rewarded.

These same companies operate in countries where wages are protected such as those in Europe. They don't want to lose the market there, even when they can't control the politics.

[gateley]

41. Money. Not only do the corporations get cheap labor, they get

TAX CREDITS for outsourcing. Sweet deal. If we ran a for-profit company where we were legally mandated to make a profit for our shareholders, it would be a very strong incentive, IMO. Congress -- both Dems and Reps -- should hang their collective head in shame.

[OhioChick]

42. End the tax breaks to ship jobs overseas..... n/t

[LiberalEsto]

43. Unfortunately Americans want wages they can live on

but corporations don't want to shell out that kind of money. So they give the jobs to people in other countries who will do the work for far less money.
And because our government is owned by the corporations, it's not going to do a thing to prevent this practice.

[datasuspect]

44. because it costs significantly less to employ workers overseas rather than in the US

.

[xchrom]

45. we can fix it -- but coporate will power is standing between the people

and their elected representatives.

this a problem that can absolutely be fixed -- nafta, gatt, all trade treaties and policies should be up for serious reform.
it's doable.

[WinkyDink]

46. What is this "our government" of which you speak?

[90-percent]

47. Noam nails it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=552567&mesg_id=552567

A real good explanation of what the national mood is these days.

I have a few comments and questions about outsourcing myself.

THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS - The cost of DIRECT LABOR in the make up of a sales price is about 10% - material cost, overhead, taxes and regs, shareholders, and all the other costs of doing business make up the bulk of money in a product cost.

Is that all they have to play with? Direct labor costs? Aren't they leaving 90% of the other stuff on the table?


MANUFACTURING - I was on the machine tool supplier side for thirty years. In order to survive, and thanks to dumb luck, I found employment on the manufacturing (machine tool user) side about 6 months ago. My observations - you can do almost any kind of work if you know it's for eight hours a day. Camaraderie - a previous post or two really got this one. I am finally becoming comfortable in my new environment and the we're all in this together teamwork I happen to really appreciate is in abundance. It is really nice to feel a shared sense of mission at work, as I call our plant a "self directed work team". "Management" seems very content to leave us alone and is actually very very supportive if we have any continuous improvement types of suggestions.

Right now it is actually me vs. my machine for eight hours a day. No management meddling or people bullshit at all. Pure productivity. It's my wits and experience and knowledge at my trade that I get to challenge every day. Every day I leave work with a sense of accomplishment I had not experienced in many years. It's kinda nice.

did that make sense?

-90% Jimmy

[Shagbark Hickory]

49. There's no job that people won't do... Only wages people won't work for. nt

[OHdem10]

51. The Way our Economy now functions. When Reagan came to

office he believed and had been back by important Business
Types who believed that Business did not have enough power.
You must remember before Reagan and Jimmy Carter(sorry, Folks
Carter was and economic Conservative) this country had been
a successfully functioning Mixed Economy. I say successful
because it was a time when the Middle Class flourished. Husband
made enough money that people could own a nice but modest home
a car and if they plan right could send their children to college.
(State Colleges provided excellent education at an excellent
cost) Kids could get scholarships to add to what their parents
could pay and attend private more expensive colleges.

The Mixed Economy means Capitalism and Social Programs (form of
Socialism to be perfectly honest). Social Programs provided for
the general welfare. Kept a balance in this country. Yes we
had Rich and Very Rich but there was not the Wealth GAP we se
today.

The Conservative Right hated and still hate everything a Mixed
Economy stands for. They saw this Re-distribution.

Reagan fortified by his Business Friends came to change this.
and give Business more power. I think he was sincere in his
belief that if you just gave Business more power and developed
Absolute FREE MARKET PRINCIPLES, the country would really prosper.
To be fair we were in a serious recession at the time. This
helped him sell this idea. People were hurting and probablly
ready to try anything.

NOW here is your answer. In setting up the Free Market.
Businesses were freed of any responsibility except to their
stockholders. They only had to earn profit for stockholders.
No responsibility to Workers, the community or the country.

It goes something like this. The elites and Wall Street
crack the whip on Business--bring in more profits. When
they have exhausted all cost cutting measures in this country,
they go around the world in search of the cheapest labor.
Our workers earn too much for them to continue to bring
in great profits. They have no obligation to the country.
No Allegiance to any country.

Deregulation and tax cuts have wrecked what was a mixed
economy which served the people well. We now have Corporatism
which serves Business and Elites well. The Rich keep getting
richer, the poor get poorer and we are losing our middle class.

Until we change this system put in place by Reagan and Nailed
to the ground by GWB, nothing changes.

[minavasht]

52. I think it is pretty simple

Company A makes widgets. To make one widget here it costs them $10. If the same widget is made in China, it will cost them $5.
If they can offer their widgets at half price, they can compete better with company B, whose widgets are still made here and still cost $10.
Hence, company A starts making widgets in China.

Now company B has to start making their widgets in China too, if they want to stay in business.

Both companies are in the business of making profits, not to provide wages to their workers.
Why should a company pay you for example $20, when somebody else will do the same job with the same skill for $5?

[treestar]

74. Right. And which Americans would buy the widget for $10 when

they could get it for $5? I've never heard of anyone coming up with a way to deal with this reality or convince Americans the same widget is worth more just because an American made it. It's easier to just blame "the corporations."

[Little Star]

80. If they were getting a better, longer lasting widget...

plenty of people would. If it was the same shitty widget they won't.

[treestar]

96. True.

Some firm could sell the same stuff on that advertising concept.

[BOG PERSON]

56. wages are too high

it is less politically costly to just shift the jobs somewhere else, or to automate those jobs, than it is to lower wages here

[mmonk]

84. I'm unaware of prosperous low wage countries.

[w4rma]

89. Low wage contries are third world contries and are very unprosperous. (nt)

[w4rma]

99. **countries**! did my 'u' key stick? (nt)

[KittyWampus]

57. That's called "Protectionism". Krugman explains it simply: it's not the jobs leaving,

it's the new jobs not being created.

During Clinton years, there were a lot of new jobs created in Silicon Valley and also building houses.

We are in trouble now because the very wealthy are taking profits but not investing in new technologies, industries.

Also, Americans have tacitly accepted this dynamic. If Americans really started paying attention to buying locally and patronizing small businesses, it would help our domestic economy.

[Little Star]

81. It is both jobs leaving and new ones not being created.....

As far as that insulting word "Protectionism", I say bullshit and I really like Krugman. Did he actually use that term? If so, how long ago. Now that there are so few jobs here in the US many people have started to realize we need some protectionism. we cannot help out others if we do not get/keep our own country in order first.

[BOG PERSON]

60. all your answers

are in this book.

[Ohio Joe]

61. yeah... no thanks - nt

[treestar]

73. The Bible?

[raccoon]

100. Here it is!

"And Ner begat Kish, and Kish begat Saul, and Saul begat Jonathan, and Malchi-shua, and Abinadab, and Esh-baal."

:silly:

[treestar]

72. It is hard to understand

China is far away. Transportation costs should make the difference, yet they still don't. That's how much cheaper they are. It's astounding.

And we still have to have the money to buy the items - some jobs must be left here. It could be that we just have different jobs here.
This was happening before the recession. We must still have a demand here, or there would be no point.

One example I thought of was when I was in a shop with nothing but Christmas stuff, made in China. Maybe the people who designed the items would not have had enough capital to mass market them by manufacturing them in the U.S. Thus, those people got an opportunity rather than a loss.

Another example: a friend's daughter designed her own prom dress. She couldn't afford to get it made up here. Her grandmother did it for her on a trip to China! At the prices there, she could afford it.

So it may not be entirely to our detriment. Somehow it all works out. It's not a zero sum game.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

85. The transportation costs aren't that different

Shipping by container ship is dirt cheap, 90%+ of the shipping cost is incurred in the stateside distribution channel where goods are moved by truck or train so to that end it doesn't really matter where something was made.

[treestar]

97. Must be.

One would think a trip from China is expensive, but apparently not so. The trip in the US is more expensive.

[jp11]

90. Yes those jobs are pretty much gone for good failing some terrible

collapse of our country or world revolt for higher wages/benefits.

Yes some of us have the money to buy those items but many don't and it doesn't help that our goods got cheaper while we didn't see wage increases. Goods can only get so cheap and then people need to make more money or work extra jobs and go into debt which is what happened.

We all can't become designers of products for the world here in America and have India or China make them for us to sell around the world. America can't just be the 'office/r&d' of the global company and have other countries be our 'factory' and 'markets' those countries will make their own products, as well as steal ours with cheap knockoffs.

The cheap labor in china offers some that would not have had the opportunity to make money and/or build a business but that isn't the case for most people. It benefits large companies most, entrepreneurs next, and the rest of us only get cheap stuff that cost us much more in jobs and a good portion of our countries economy.

[treestar]

98. Your third paragraph -

Why not? And those jobs could be better than manufacturing jobs.

Maybe rising oil prices could bring the jobs back - though transportation doesn't seem to be much of it.

Or just making something made in the USA the advertising point and get people to covet goods because they are Made in the USA.

Thanks for discussing this rationally. It's a topic that often ends up in flames unless you just go along with pure outrage.

[raccoon]

101. It may be that we just have different jobs here, but in the US we don't have nearly

as many good-paying jobs as we used to.

If anyone doesn't know that they haven't been paying attention or have been asleep for the past 30 years.

[City Lights]

82. Our government exists to serve the corporations.

So it's all working out as planned.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. Because Americans have a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the world.

People in poor countries will work for lower wages.

[Progressive_In_NC]

88. Honestly, I think it's because they don't want any infrastructure here if our economy collapses

If China, Russia and the Middle East really do stop buying oil in US dollars, then the US gov't will no longer be able to print money. Once the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency, inflation will take over. This will lead to hyper inflation possibly like Germany in the 30s or Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

If they can tear us down now, and lower our wages and standard of living low enough, when they finally do kick the chair out from under us, the fall won't be so bad.

We are doing EXACTLY what Yugoslavia did before their bankruptcy (see quantitative easing) and I think we are heading down the same path. And I sadly think it may be by design.

[Joe the Revelator]

91. It won't be popular here, but unions have made the selves too expensive forr the market.

That's the fact of the matter.

[jp11]

92. That's one view I blame the market for valuing greed where management

didn't want to share much if any of their profits with those directly responsible for them, the workers represented by unions. Unions came about because of management's greed and have been pushed away because of management's greed pushing their agenda through politics to bust them, break them and turn the non-union workers against those with a union for having higher wages and more benefits.

It wasn't that there couldn't be money made with unions it was that management wants all of it, that's the fact.

[Joe the Revelator]

93. Greed works both ways. Lots of seniority safe union workers see no problem ...

...with there work crews becoming smaller because they insist on being paid the salary of two men.

[Kablooie]

94. Companies get tax BREAKS for sending work overseas. Silly.

Anything that increases corporate profits is good for America, the meme goes.
So they encourage outsourcing work.

Millions of starving Americans dying in the streets is a small price to pay for unprecedented corporate profits.
Keep America strong, eh!

http://blog.reidreport.com/2010/09/gop-blocks-bill-to-deny-tax-break-for-outsourcing-jobs-the-roll-call/