Oh, um, Mr. President, you forgot to mention our, um, role in propping up that dictator.

[originalpckelly]

I find it very interesting that you never hear about the US and it's aid to Mubarak from the President's mouth, directly. I bet you'd never hear about how we fucked the people of Egypt from a President, you know?

Oh well, gotta make it look like we're not bad guys, can't have people knowing what the truth really is, can we? Might just cause more nations to break away from the empire, now wouldn't it?

A lie of omission is still a lie.

And we all know that none of the things we sent to Egypt were used to suppress dissent, right?

After all, those tear gas canisters used in the opening day of the protest may have said made in the USA, but we couldn't have foreseen that they'd be used that way. I mean, after all, a dictator would never use something like tear gas on protesters.

In fact, we got the whole thing going with the following announcement:
"Come protest democracy in Egypt.

It'll be a gas.

The USA"

[MineralMan]

1. Uh-huh....whatever you say.

The government of Egypt was the government of Egypt. We've been supporting it for decades. Do you know why?

Unrecommended as a poor job of bashing the President.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnOhioan]

54. Yeah,,,Mubarak was a son of a bitch but.....

he was "our" son of a bitch.

[Foo Fighter]

79. That about sums it up.

Actually, that pretty much sums up our entire foreign policy.

[JuniperLea]

56. Obama FAILS as President of Egypt! OMG!!!

There's always a new load of shit in the pipes ready to be flung. Whatever happens, do NOT let the outrage end!!!11!! I'm series!

[Ken Burch]

61. Strawman...nobody said anything REMOTELY like that!

Disowning a tyrant is NOT imperialism!

Neither would be making it clear that we'll NEVER back people like that again.

[JuniperLea]

63. So now you think Obama can speak for all the administrations that will follow his!

Amazing...

[Ken Burch]

66. James Monroe did.

So have other presidents.

Why COULDN'T we have an Obama Doctrine that holds that we will never again prop up dictatorships?

[JuniperLea]

69. That was about the AMERICAS!!

You seriously don't get the difference? It was NOT about countries on the other side of the globe! It was about protecting ourselves by protecting our nearest neighboring countries.

Jesus God... I give the fuck up... seriously.

[Ken Burch]

72. What you asked for was an example of a president speaking for presidents to come

The Monroe Doctrine IS an example of that.

Why is that ONLY possible when speaking of NEIGHBORING countries?

Is there something wrong with trying to pledge this country not to ally with dictators anymore?

Why CAN'T we just make a clear and absolute break with that practice?

[JuniperLea]

74. Jesus God...

Yes, in fucking response to what you said! Forget it... I've had it with your disingenuous bullshit and constant goalpost moving...

[Ken Burch]

75. I've moved no goalposts.

And your personalized hostility towards me is uncalled for.

Nothing I've said here is unreasonable.

[Occulus]

77. Juniper, YOU moved that goalpost.

You did that.

You, and only you.

I expect that sort of projection from Republicans. We're supposed to be better- and smarter- than that.

[Ken Burch]

2. You're right. His speech, good as it was, SHOULD have included an apology for that

AND a pledge that we won't prop up any other dictators any more.

The day of "our S.O.B.'s" is over.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. Until the next time

Wait until the crowds go for the House of Saud.

Then we'll see just how many SOBs are ours, lest gas go to $5/gallon just before the election.

[JuniperLea]

64. Since when can any president make a pledge for those who follow?

I'm just effing amazed at what I read...

[Ken Burch]

67. Since the Monroe Doctrine.

n/t.

[JuniperLea]

70. You need to read that doctrine...

With a concentration on the vast difference between neighboring countries and those on the other side of the globe.

[dipsydoodle]

3. That's what's known as

hypocrisy.

[Sinistrous]

4. How touchingly naive.

[11 Bravo]

13. Can that level of bullshit really be attributed to something as simple as naivete?

[JuniperLea]

58. I think a lot of us hope so...

The alternative is really too evil.

[Ken Burch]

62. What's WRONG with admitting that we propped up this bastard for decades, and were wrong to do so?

How is wishing for that "evil"?

Are you saying that we ALWAYS have to be on the wrong side of history? That we ALWAYS have to defend the status quo right up to the bitter end?

Why can't we expect our leaders to tell the truth about our country's foreign policy history and to finally make a clean break with it?

Your cynicism about all this is truly mystifying.

[JuniperLea]

65. What is mystifying...

Is your utter lack of the concept of diplomacy... and this fairy tale you are telling yourself about any president speaking on behalf of all other presidential administrations to come is about as telling as it gets.

[tabatha]

5. Actually, I thank Carter for this result.

He brokered a peace accord with Egypt and Israel, after which there was closer cooperation between the US and Egyptian armies. And after all, it was the Egyptian Army that saved the day. Unlike in Iran, where the US has no influence, and the military squashed all protesters.

We may have had dealings with the bad Mubarak, but I think the US dealings with the Egyptian military is what resulted in a successful outcome.

Thank you, Jimmy Carter.

[originalpckelly]

6. I know, it was a great plan.

30 years of suppression of free speech, indefinite detention, torture, and outright murder. I think it was a bang up job. All in the interests of the people of Egypt, if you ask me. A little dictatorship never hurt anyone, and it sure as hell toughens people up. That's the real reason we did it.

[Tansy_Gold]

8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Anwar Sadat was

assassinated in October 1981, and Mubarak took over then. That would be under Reagan, not Carter.


TG, TT

[tabatha]

9. All I am talking about

is the cooperation between the US and Egyptian military after the peace accord.

Without that, it would have all failed.

[originalpckelly]

18. Aid is not always in the form of money.

If the CIA has any interest in Egypt, they've been working to help Mubarak throughout those 30 years. It is known that the US had enough of a relationship with the nation to export people there for torture.

[originalpckelly]

20. And I should add:

Aid is not always in the form of money that you can trace with publicly available information.

[stevenleser]

35. Not according to wikilieaks. According to wikileaks, Obama started undermining Mubarak when he

was inaugurated.

[Foo Fighter]

78. Good to know the US still exports something.

Unfortunately, that "something" is torture.

Not exactly a product the average consumer is clamoring for.

[Codeine]

7. The military our money created and our forces trained

is what ultimately forced Mubarak's ouster. I think the Egyptian people are mature and savvy enough to let the past be the past as long as we continue aid and support.

[originalpckelly]

19. The military was not often responsible for the illegal and dictatorial activities...

the Interior Ministry did most of it.

And what, you don't think the CIA hasn't had some kind involvement in that?

We're not privy to that kind of information right now, because we have an oligarchy that decides what information we and the rest of the world will get.

But in about 50 years, we'll know how intricately involved our government was in the existence Mubarak's regime.

[originalpckelly]

25. The damn tear gas canisters were made in the USA.

We really supported the people who were protesting, didn't we?

"You are cordially invited to a protest.

We promise it will be a gas.

xoxo
USA"

[JoePhilly]

10. Yes, TODAY is the day that Obama should bring up THAT history.

And he is a liar for having not done so.

One of the more ridiculous attacks on Obama since the right wing lost its mind when Obama put mustard on a hamburger.

:rofl:

[monmouth]

50. So many rays of sunshine here today. ....n/t

[EFerrari]

11. Hard to think of a clearer example than Egypt of the dark side of the empire.

From our torturer that got appointed VP to the American tanks the army sat in on Tahrir Square to the American made tear gas.

But maybe today was a good day to let the Egyptian people have the focus for a victory they so richly deserved.

[Catherina]

12. I didn't expect him to go that far tho morally he should have

I'm disappointed not to have heard a HEARTY CONGRATULATIONS to the Egyptian people.

Maybe they couldn't find a way to wordsmith it properly.

US credibility there took a huge dive before the speech, and this was too little too late.

[sufrommich]

14. Yeah, that would have worked out well, for the republicans.

He should have donned a hair shirt too.:eyes:

[immoderate]

15. I think he did that on purpose.

Bad as I sometimes think he is, Obama didn't have much to do with creating that dictatorship. So I don't think he should do anything to claim ownership of it.

And apologies for American Imperialism are radioactive. How many votes can his opponents nail down from the nation of the gullible. They already think he's a Muslim. Why should he give them more ammo? Those people know the truth. It's Americans whose information must be controlled.

--imm

[sufrommich]

17. I'm waiting for the right wing outrage over him uttering some

arabic words in the speech, it's coming.

[immoderate]

28. It's the "Hussein" part, trying to break out.

Evidence of the control of the Cosmic Brotherhood.

Dealing with true believers, you learn never to veer from the subject at hand. They will use it against you.

--imm

[Poll_Blind]

21. Every single Egyptian is painfully aware of it.

You'll recall the "Made in the USA" teargas cannister. Those and the tanks adn the jets and likely the APC's and a whole shitload of military hardware which was used to repress Egyptians.

PB

[Sheepshank]

41. Wonder how old that tear gas container is?

less than 2 years?....more than 15 years? Who supplied it, how was it obtained? Purchased, purloined? Gawd, running off and making any judgments with this information is nuts because is really says nothing of any tangible to support the OP...nothing.

[hulka38]

22. The President got rave reviews for admitting

the strong anti-democratic U.S. role in installing the Shah in Iran during his Cairo speech of 2009. It took over fifty years for a president to cop to what we did and say it was wrong. Obama can't be as candid or critical of his own anti-democratic ME policy because it was on display until only a few days ago.

[originalpckelly]

23. Exactly.

He's not some nice clean fellow, we already know what he did, or rather didn't do with Bush.

I don't honestly think he would have given a damn about the Egyptians if they hadn't decided to speak up for themselves, and put a stop to this bullshit.

[quinnox]

24. President Obama should not take any credit for events in Egypt

If he is trying to take credit for Egyptian uprising he is more out of touch than it can be believed.

[sufrommich]

26. Of course, he's not taking credit for the Egyptian Revolution, but

lets pretend he is and get all outraged and shit.

[originalpckelly]

27. No, that's how history will be written.

American school children will only hear about the efforts of the USA to help out our good friends in Egypt.

And people will miss the real lesson of this:
We live in an empire. Not a good one, but one that uses other human beings as machines, as pawns, in its quest for global domination.

Bet you'll never see that in a textbook now, would you?

You don't read about all the times that the USA has overthrown foreign government covertly, now do you?

You only hear one side of the story. Look at Iran. No one hears about the CIA's efforts to overthrow Mosaddegh, how we managed to install the Shah of Iran. No one hears how we used former Nazis to plan the shit and carry it out. No one hears about the mobs in the streets that intimidated the Mosaddegh forces into submission.

No one hears that, but they do hear how these ungrateful hateful Muslims, took over their own country.

Not saying that a theocracy was a great result, but there is a cause and effect. We always see the effect, but rarely the actual cause.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430#

[quinnox]

29. good points

I'd like to see a response to this.

[sufrommich]

32. Here you go:

http://www.lkwdpl.org/lhs/cia/

[MineralMan]

30. Depends on the textbook, really.

The ones I've read clearly point out the times that we've participated in such events. Maybe you're reading the wrong textbooks. There's plenty written about our meddling in the Middle East. You could look them up, you know.

Probably not in our high school textbooks, but they leave out almost everything.

[originalpckelly]

33. And how many college educations are provided for free?

Here we've arrived at our problem. In major cities, it is not uncommon for there to be drop out/graduation rates that are almost 50/50.

Even if you go through high school, a free education in almost all places, you have to pay for college. It is not uncommon for kids to come out these days indebted for the rest of their lives.

That's if they go to college though.

Quite a large number of people still don't, though you'd be lead to think otherwise.

Less than 30% of the population has a bachelor's degree. Not all people who start college finish it, but from the statistics I see, I can only conclude that many go to technical schools, places where I imagine they're not as interested in teaching American history in an in depth manner.

This is the problem, the people who rule this country, an oligarchy of rich and politically powerful individuals, they have no interest in anyone knowing the real history of America. They just want people smart enough to fill out paperwork and run machines (where you can find a job doing that) or make their coffee at Starbucks.

And the empire plods along. Soulless, without liberty and justice for all.

[MineralMan]

37. Different argument, you know.

Diversion is a common way to avoid admitting that you're wrong. You did not qualify your textbook nonsense. You say you don't read about this stuff in textbooks. I explained that you did if you actually read them. High school texts are a mere overview of things, and rarely go into the history of countries other than the United States. So, there would be no real place to include such information in them.

You're right, though...not everyone goes to college. Some people read for the joy of learning anyhow. Others do not care a whit about our meddling in other countries' affairs. A lot of people don't know a lot of things.

You dislike the United States. That's quite evident. That's your privilege. It is not your privilege to write things that aren't correct though, without being called on it.

Changing the parameters of the argument doesn't work with me.

[originalpckelly]

45. See, this is the problem.

American history should include information about our interventions in foreign countries. You might get WWII and Vietnam, maybe a little Korea, but you'll never hear about anything else.

They either don't have the time, the books don't cover it, and if the books don't cover it, then the kids will simply go on to not know.

It's not just about the foreign policy of the USA. A lot of labor disputes that are vital to American history have not been included.

In school, I never even once heard about the Ludlow Massacre, I had to learn about it on my own. I had a fucking relative who was there, and I still didn't know anything about it, other than from what I had to learn myself.

[MineralMan]

48. Oh dear. No, there is not time for that in our high schools.

You know that, I'm sure. That level of history is something different. Those who have an interest will learn it on their own, as you apparently have. There is no time. High school can only present an overview of stuff. Foreign policy is not taught in high school, generally, and neither are the details of the labor movement. If the kids learn that child labor laws were passed and that there are such a thing as unions and how they began, then that's about as far as it goes. When are they supposed to learn about regional issues in a region they don't even live in?

Those interested in history will read about history. Those interested in biology will read about that. Others will learn in college, assuming they take classes that go into such things. I'm not sure what your expectations are for a high school education, but it sure sounds to me like they're way higher than the time allows in high school.

While it would be good if high schoolers had heard of the Ludlow Massacre, that period of history is only briefly discussed, and is generally given to a brief overview of World War I. Labor incidents in 1914 are not part of the high school history curriculum. Maybe in Colorado, where the thing occurred, but I doubt it.

[originalpckelly]

49. It is now, but for all the years after it happened it wasn't.

They just started teaching it this last year or maybe the year before.

And you know what? I never even heard about Harvey Milk. Didn't even hear his name mentioned, even just once! Didn't even know who he was. They don't tell you anything about that either. Had to learn about him on my own.

History in this country is incredibly one-sided. And the side that gets to tell it, because it's still around, is usually the side that writes it.

[sufrommich]

31. I think you need to take a look at a typical High School

textbook. You certainly can read about CIA covert operations and US efforts to destabilize governments.

[originalpckelly]

34. When was the last time you were in high school?

I was 5 years ago, and I don't seem to remember anything about that.

[sufrommich]

36. Really ?I don't know where you went to High School but I'm

a little surprised you didn't learn such things. I haven't been in High School since the 70's. However my son was in school in the '90's and I don't remember any of his history teachers sugar coating out foreign adventures.

[MineralMan]

39. Hmm...not every textbook is of high quality. Perhaps your school

used textbooks of low quality. You appear to have continued your education. That's a good thing. However, your individual experience does not qualify you to make broad statements about textbooks in general, I'm thinking.

[originalpckelly]

40. Are you f-ing kidding me? Do you really think conservative districts...

will buy textbooks that even slightly portray America in a bad light, beyond the things we know absolutely had to be true?

:rofl:

[MineralMan]

43. Now you're breaking it down into the politics of individual districts?

I thought you were talking about textbooks in general. Now you're just talking about conservative textbooks in conservative districts?

I'm not going to continue this discussion. It's gotten way off track.

[sufrommich]

44. So now we're talking about conservative districts?

Your original post said "American school children".

[originalpckelly]

46. Some districts might order good books...

but I sincerely doubt they'll learn enough of it to establish the pattern of imperialism.

[sufrommich]

47. Lots of districts have good history teachers. People who study

history, and love it enough to teach, usually teach it well, regardless of books.

[cottonseed]

53. Reading posts like yours is like being punched in the face over and over and over...

I don't know where you guys come up with this stuff.

[quinnox]

55. over sensitivity to Obama?

Notice I said "IF" he was taking credit. I rarely watch tv press conferences or speeches lately, and I know he had some kind of speech today, which I missed.

So thats why I framed my comment that way. "IF" President Obama was attempting to take credit, I didn't say he did.

It really isn't anything sinister.

[cottonseed]

60. No not at all. An over sensitivity to ignorant comments. That's what I have.

I mean, how many, "if he did this"/"if he did that" "then I am outraged" posts does a person really need to slosh through?

[Control-Z]

73. You sure had me believing

you wanted us to think he was trying to take credit. I'm just now getting down to where my response shows up to your accusation statement and, after reading all the replies in between, I still believe that's what you were doing.

[Control-Z]

68. He's trying to take credit?

Wow. I completely missed that. He must be a real dumb ass, huh? Do you have a link for that?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dipsydoodle]

42. Apparently

those tear gas canisters had passed their use by date.

But as somebody here pointed out a few week or so back - the Egyptian people attached more importance, quite rightly, to where they made made.

[rug]

51. Nonsense.

[Ramulux]

52. La la la la la la la...

I cant hear you! How dare you point out that our president only started to call for reform once it became politically safe to do so, its not like he supported Mubarek all the way up until 3 weeks ago. This is democratic underground, we dont criticize Obama here.

[Lorien]

57. +1. nt

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

76. When your Secretary of State and a brutal dictator are friends, it's probably best to avoid the

subject.

""I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family. So I hope to see him often here in Egypt and in the United States." - Hilary Clinton.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/09/AR2009030902478.html