Americans, do you wish somehow our countrymen were able to do what the Egyptians did

[Duer 157099]

Sadly, it will never happen here, because We The People do not have a single common perceived enemy. Even though in truth we actually do.

But the media spin machine has convinced half of us that the other half is actually the enemy, when in reality it is the very, very small number of uber wealthy MIC elite.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. How I wish my country would follow the example of these brave Arabs! nt

[monmouth]

126. I'd like to see a real revolt on Wall Street, I mean scare the hell out

of the corporatists and all that goes with it. Yeah, I'd even fly up from Florida for that one.

[wndycty]

2. We did on November 4, 2008, or did you forget. . .

. . .different countries, different problems, different means of dealing with those problems.

They were a dictatorship, we are a democracy. The people of Egypt have turned a corner, but like us the real change is going to be rough and not happen over night.

[still_one]

11. It is just amazing that people believe we are in the same situation as Egypt. What planet are they

on. We have elections every 2 to 4 years. Because people don't turn out and vote, is the people's problem

[Duer 157099]

25. Hahahah, so we have the choice of corporatist #1 or corporatist #2

Great choice!

[Skip_In_Boulder]

35. That was my thought.

Convince a man he is free and you can convince him of anything.

[still_one]

43. There are more people than corporations, and if they organized and voted it would be different

The bottom line is that people here vote, and if they vote for corporatist, or even against their own interest, whose fault is that?

[originalpckelly]

51. No, we don't have a free choice.

If we did, then qualified candidates who had ethics and were devoted to the universal application of the law, not just to the people and lesser political figures, but to even the highest of the high.

This nation, this empire, is no longer, and it may never have been a true democracy.

[still_one]

56. Then don't vote for those candidates, and if your party does not support progressive ideas, then

if enough people are pissed off they should organize either a candidate that will adhere to those views, or start a new party if you cannot change within the party you are part of

[sabrina 1]

139. Who would they vote for?

We'd still get one of the two corporate owned parties in power. No matter how many people vote, nothing changes the way things go here. Wall St. doesn't care which party wins. People don't vote because they know it won't make a difference until the entire system changes. To change the system will take a lot more than voting.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. And worse, people feel helpless to bring about change. We want option a non-corporatist option!

[still_one]

87. Then support candidates who have that view, and are progressive. The tea party movement is the

opposite of what progressives want, however, they have demonstrated they can win elections if they organize

Liberals can do the same thing. The last time liberals and progressives challenged the Democratic party in force was the anti-war movement during the Viet Nam war.

Frankly, a lot of liberals are upset with the compromises that have occurred, and the message was loud and clear during the midterms, when they did not show up to vote.

It is debatable whether that helps or hurts the progressive cause, however, if the Democrats lose enough elections because they lose liberal support, either they will be forced to change, or a new progressive party will emerge

[JVS]

137. The teabaggers are organized through rich corporate interests.

There is no possibility of doing that on the left. In fact, it's debatable whether the teabaggers and the republican "establishment" actually have a conflict or whether the teaparty was a way of re-branding a party that had fucked up very badly.

Furthermore, the anti-war movement didn't gain influence over the democratic party. The war was eventually ended by Nixon.

[still_one]

144. Johnson resigned because of the war, and the dissent within his base. That war would have ended

no matter who was president, nixon just happened to be the person. It was the process started by the anti-war movement, the liberals and progressives, that propelled it.

There are different factions of teabaggers, and the one's supported by dick army and company are just a re branded version of the repukes. However, those that are NOT part of the repuke establishment did win elections that the repugs were not happy about, and that is the segment I was referring to

[SDuderstadt]

151. LBJ resigned?

News to me and historians.

[still_one]

155. He didn't run for another term, that is what I meant. On that point you are quibbling with my

semantics I believe. Why do you think he didn't run for a third term? He finished out Kennedy's terms after Kennedy was killed, and he was eligible for two more terms

The question is would he have won the Democratic nomination, that is a valid point, however, he declined to even try, and that is what I meant by resignation, not in the classical sense

Humphrey ended up the nominee and lost, but both Humphrey and nixon campaigned on ending the war with "a better strategy", while the American public was being influenced by the anti-war movement and the increasing body bags coming home

[SDuderstadt]

156. Do you know anything about...

history? LBJ ran and won in 1964, but declined to run in '68. To claim there is only a "semantic" difference between resigning and declining to run again is silly.

[still_one]

157. I told you what I meant. Diss me all you want. Have a good day. /nt

[SDuderstadt]

160. Maybe writing more clearly would...

help you get your points across better. In the meantime, the difference between resigning and declining to run again is more than just "semantics".

[Raksha]

158. What planet are they [we] on? The neocon planet.

And we do have a common enemy, although not everyone has realized it yet.

[alsame]

3. Yes, I wish we could unite against the common enemies that

hurt us all. But you're exactly right, we've been programmed to demonize each other.

The only thing I can think of that might unite us is the reinstatement of a draft and never-ending wars. But even then, I'm not sure we'd come together.

[polichick]

4. It could happen here and now is the time - not to remove the prez...

...but to demand "free and fair elections" with uniform and verifiable voting, 100% taxpayer financing of elections and overturning the Citizens United decision. Now is the time because President Obama would not use force against the people or stand in the way of these changes.

[pennylane100]

5. Unfortunately the reason it will not happen here

is because we are have a voice in putting these people into power and we let them stay there through the ballot box.

[Duer 157099]

9. Yes, that certainly is the illusion

and that's exactly why it won't and can't happen here. We are deluded.

[polichick]

22. It certainly is a powerful delusion - but one more and more people understand. nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duer 157099]

14. I'd rather a Democrat would have won

But I think it's clear that these labels have ceased to be meaningful at all, except to elicit knee-jerk reactions

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wndycty]

29. A Democrat did win

:kick:

[FredStembottom]

39. Yes.

The man who won is, indeed, labelled a Democrat.
Bill Clinton, who instituted so many of the radical Right's fondest dreams also had that label.
You are correct.

[LanternWaste]

107. As your OP aptly illustrates.

"these labels have ceased to be meaningful at all, except to elicit knee-jerk reactions..."

As your OP aptly illustrates.

[quinnox]

7. No of course not

Egypt is not the same as America in government at all.

[still_one]

8. That is total B.S. The situation in Egypt doesn't even compare to here. We have elections. Maybe

you don't like the outcome of those elections, or the corporate interest, but if enough people voted here, there would be change. In this country people deserve the government they have.

[phleshdef]

10. Its an insult to the sufferieng of these people to think ours even comes close.

We shouldn't ignore our problems because others have it worse. We also should not have the ARROGANCE to suggest that our problems resemble anything close to those in these third world situations.

[still_one]

12. Absolutely. /nt

[Pisces]

15. Arrogance is the only word to describe this kind of comparison.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duer 157099]

17. Tell that to the homeless and impoverished in this country!

Go ahead, tell THEM how much better their lives are. Go ahead.

[phleshdef]

30. What an immature, but totally predictable response.

What part of "just because others have it worse doesn't mean we should ignore our own problems" do you not understand?

And further on that note, I'd dare you to try and tell the people living in third world hell that modern day America can claim some kind of equal footing on the suffering scale. Thats just ridiculous.

Regardless, the overall American quality of life is light years beyond that of the 3rd world. There is no debating that.

[Duer 157099]

34. American Exceptionalism is alive and well

in your world, I see.

[phleshdef]

88. No. I mostly don't embrace silly "isms". I'm just stating the facts of measurable reality.

It has nothing to do with being "exceptional". We are where we are on the overall "quality of life" scale. Its in part because we've spent more than the past 200 years forging a democratic society. We've had enough time to become a better nation. And we need more time yet.

[WatsonT]

53. So there are no differences between our two nations?

We have exactly the same standard of living, chance for advancement, and percentage of people living in poverty?

The fact that we have some poor doesn't mean we are the same as every other country that has poor people also.

Folks go hungry here, folks go hungry in the Sudan. The US is no different than the Sudan!

[dionysus]

64. that's a hell of a strawman.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

79. Your problems might not approach Egypt's... but the urban poor I work with have it

worse than many Egyptians.

[FreakinDJ]

13. Like Demand Wall St Crooks be "Dethroned and Prosecuted"

Damm Right

[Duer 157099]

20. That one might actually fly

I don't know anyone who actually admits to liking the Wall St crooks.

Maybe we begin there? Why not? :shrug:

[madinmaryland]

16. Un-recced. There is no comparison between here and Egypt.

[polichick]

19. Sure there is. We don't have "free and fair elections" and our government...

...represents corporations, not the people.

[Duer 157099]

21. Thank you. That is my point. It is all illusion.

At least the Egyptians knew exactly what they were dealing with.

Most here do not.

[polichick]

24. I'm with you - it would be thrilling to see an awakening here! nt

[treestar]

148. Sloganeering

And corporations are becoming like some sort of talisman. If they were all dissolved there would be very few jobs.

Our elections are free. International bodies that monitor elections would never compare ours as inadequate, nor any Western country.

[HughBeaumont]

23. We DO have a common enemy - corporations and the wealthy.

Unfortunately, it's IDENTIFYING the enemy that's the problem.

News channels will tell you it's Democrats/Obama/anything to the left of Joe Liebermann.

Silly bunch of whores.

[KansDem]

26. Of course...nt

[Lint Head]

27. From a propaganda standpoint it's called divide and conquer.

[polichick]

41. Yes, that has worked in this country for a long time...

...but it won't work forever.

[Dappleganger]

28. We have our imperfect elections.

We need to make our democracy more legitimate and choose better leaders, but our situation is nowhere near as dire as Egypt's.

[lukasahero]

31. Comments like this mock the condition of the Egyptian people

and what they accomplished.

It's embarrassing. Let them have their moment.

[Duer 157099]

32. Really? Admiring their bravery and resolve mocks them?

:shrug:

[lukasahero]

45. No - comparing the condition of America to that of Egypt does

but I'm sure you knew that.

[Duer 157099]

57. So when exactly did I make that comparison?

All I think I said was that it would be nice if our countrymen could stand together for some positive change. At least that's what I think I said.

[polichick]

33. That's ridiculous - they were inspired by others and we should be inspired by them. nt

[lukasahero]

47. And if we lived in a 3rd world dictatorship, you might have a point

But we don't.

[polichick]

54. Sorry to burst your bubble of delusion, but we also need fair elections...

...and goverment that serves the people.

[Duer 157099]

60. Complacent much? n/t

[Duer 157099]

36. "Let the Tunisians have their moment"

said one Egyptian to another back in the early days of January.

[tavalon]

37. It won't happen the same way but it will happen here

When, where and how, I don't have, but I know that our time is coming.

[wndycty]

42. It happened on November 4, 2008. . .

. . .enough said.

[polichick]

49. Yes, and we have found that it wasn't enough - corporations still rule...

We'll have to do it again, making specific demands about fair elections and public financing and overturning Citizens United. Changing presidents or parties isn't enough.

[tavalon]

131. Yeah, we are learning that the trappings don't a democracy make

[tavalon]

130. Well, that really hurts

[TBF]

38. Unrec for your negativity - of course it can happen here. nt

[Duer 157099]

40. I'd love to feel optimism. Please share your vision.

Seriously.

[still_one]

52. Then get enough people to vote out those that you believe are undermining the party or the country

and if you believe it is not possible within the Democratic party, then become part of a progressive third party

If it is perceived that both parties do not offer a difference, then a third party will become viable

[TBF]

63. This has nothing to do with voting - it is people in the streets.

We've done it before, we will do it again. It is my greatest hope that we do it soon. Egypt has shown us that it can be done peacefully.

[still_one]

77. It has everything to do with voting. We can vote the bums out, the Egyptians couldn't

However, I do not disagree with you point that protesting on specific issues can create political change. It did for the Civil Rights Movement, the end of the Viet Nam War, and other things

Voting also creates change, if people of like mind unite as a voting block

[TBF]

80. If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal - Emma Goldman

Sure, if you're willing to put up with capitalism, and settle for crumbs from the ruling class (along with a few nods on cultural issues), than yes voting is for you.

I don't believe it's enough for systemic change of the sort we need. JMHO.

[still_one]

89. Well if enough people shared your view then it would. /nt

[TBF]

59. How soon we forget (dial up warning - lots of photos) ...

We have done it before, we will do it again. Civil rights movement in the USA, circa 1960s:












Seriously.

[maryf]

143. + 300 million

Please make this an OP??? thanks!! :pals:

[Waiting For Everyman]

44. There are things we can learn from this, and I hope we do.

And I'm sure some will. That's a start.

It'll never happen here as long as people say it'll never happen here. We may not need revolution, but we do need to change direction. And that IS possible.

The Egyptians thought up some cool techniques, which I for one, have found fascinating. A few of these protesters invented some things to make this happen - they are very entrepreneurial about problem solving. For instance, how to keep going when the internet goes down, how to translate tweets and VM from Arabic to English, in general how to use the technology that exists in a guerrilla grassroots way. Street reporters supplied information when the network journalists left. This was very "man in the street" in the way it was done. They invented additional little ways to empower themselves, and to connect with each other - and used them. And they looked after each other.

These are some smart cookies. And with lots of character and humanity. This "new Egypt" is really quite impressive.

[LeftinOH]

46. It should have happened in 2003 = invasion of Iraq.

[WatsonT]

48. They do on a regular basis

popular discontent often ends with politicians being peacefully removed from office.

We don't do it in the streets because we have elections.

[Rex]

50. NO, because we don't need to!

All it takes is maybe 3 responsible people to step up and start fixing these past decades of corporate criminal activity.

[Shagbark Hickory]

55. Try again. Corporations put people in to power, even BO. And 3 ppl alone isn't going to do much.

[still_one]

71. You know what is disturbing both parties, and the corporations it is the power of people. The civil

rights movement is a perfect example how PEOPLE were able to elicit change through the political process here

[Shagbark Hickory]

98. Yes, good example. What has happened since then? We couldn't get people to give up

SUVs for crissakes.

[treestar]

147. We have to vote for whoever makes the most expensive, slickest ads?

We have no choice in that matter?

The only way around that is to smarten up the voters. They don't have to let themselves be led by the nose.

Campaigns are expensive because Americans demand to be entertained and let themselves be pushed around by the rich.

[Duer 157099]

70. LOL, thanks for the good laugh.

Laugh because you're absolutely correct, all we need is 3 responsible people to step up.

And we can't even get that.

Now that's funny. In a sad sort of way.

[Rex]

94. I've been using the word pathetic a lot.

Most people thought I was joking...thank you for getting my point. :hi:

[blindpig]

58. o yea of little faith...

We have more in common with the people in the streets of Egypt than we ever will or have had in common with our ruling class. They are doing their damnedest to make that obvious to all. Give it time, we got some catching up to do, they will sell us the rope we hang them with.

[bigwillq]

61. Obama would never resign.

:evilgrin:

[TBF]

66. They said that about Mubarak too.

:patriot:

[polichick]

67. He wouldn't have to, as long as he doesn't stand in the way of changes...

...needed: public financing of elections, verifiable voting, overturning Citizens United, prosecuting criminals.

[wndycty]

68. And why should he? We have a democracy and he has done nothing that would require him to

:kick:

[bigwillq]

75. It's a joke, dude (nt)

[treestar]

146. If only he'd resign and let the army take over!

:evilgrin:

[Shagbark Hickory]

62. U answered UR own Question. We could try to fight for certain things...

certain policies. But it would take a whole lot of people to take to the streets and I don't think anyone here feels strongly enough about any particular issue to take off work for a month and basically protest for 24 hours.

[wndycty]

69. The streets or the polling place?

:kick:

[Shagbark Hickory]

97. The streets. Elections are bought and paid for in the us of a.

[NoPasaran]

65. Totally amazed

I'm totally amazed at the sentiments of those "progressives" who'd like to see President Obama driven out of the White House and forced to hand power over to the military.

[polichick]

73. Nice try, but that's not what progressives would be marching for. nt

[azul]

72. And the attention of the world

now focuses on the $1.5 billions of dollars in military aid a year that supported that repressive regime that was just overthrown. What type of false democracy would commit such an outrage?

[Downtown Hound]

74. LOL. I posted this yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x390681

It got one response and 12 recs. I'm not complaining, I would just like to point something out. The reason why it won't happen ehre is because everybody's always sitting around moaning about the fact that it can't happen here instead of just going out and fucking doing it. The way you get numbers out in the street is to just show up. It doesn't matter if there's ten of you or ten million. You do it because it's the right thing to do and you shouldn't be attached to the outcome.

If every American who was pissed off at the current state of things could just manage to do that, just show the fuck up, then you better believe it could happen here. But people need to start actually LOOKING for opportunities and taking them when they appear, and they do appear. Then, and only then, will we have a real movement.

[DainBramaged]

78. Who would we overthrow, Obama?

:eyes:


You can't overthrow a corporation.

[polichick]

81. Voters could make demands - verifiable elections, public financing...

...the overturning of Citizens United, prosecution of criminals - a set of democratic demands.

imo the prez would be fine with most of that.

[TBF]

82. I believe the goal would be overthrowing capitalism -

I don't have a particular beef with Mr. Obama. He is a fine ruler in terms of what he has been asked to do (he is meeting the needs of those who put him into office - if you have any doubt on who that is just do a search for his top campaign donors).

It's not bad actors - it's the system that has to go, imo.

[DainBramaged]

83. And how do we do that, kill all of the Capitalists?

:eyes:

[SDuderstadt]

86. How about just reinstituting...

democratic capitalism?

[HughBeaumont]

90. That's what I'd be going for . . . because we sure as shit don't have that now.

Friedmanomics is a dead end for 90% of the people involved.

[SDuderstadt]

92. I don't believe a lot of critics of...

capitalism even understand what democratic capitalism is, HB.

[JVS]

138. That's because you are under the mistaken belief that capitalism is a set of organizational...

rules and principles. It's not.

[SDuderstadt]

154. WTF? n/t

[SDuderstadt]

96. Serious question...

do you understand what "democratic capitalism" is?

[TBF]

99. Serious question... how do you regulate the capitalism to make it fair? nt

[SDuderstadt]

100. Study "democratic capitalism" and...

you'll find out.

I didn't think you knew anything about it.

[TBF]

101. By it's nature capitalism does not respond to regulation -

but nice try.

Keep beating the dead horse.

[SDuderstadt]

104. Thanks for the non-answer...

dude. Wouldn't it be easier to admit you have no idea what democratic capitalism is, rather than continue to beg the question?

[TBF]

112. We already have democratic capitalism and I have watched how well it works

for over 40 years now. We could quibble over how authoritarian the capitalism is (and undoubtedly with the very conservative rule of the past 35 years or so it is noticeably more authoritarian), but I still don't think we're going to be able to "regulate" it. It's a system that thrives on production and profit as an end result. No matter what checks you try to put on it there are going to be work-arounds (from bribery to hidden accounts to bottom line analysis - easier to pay the fine than do the right thing, it goes on and on). I personally have come to the conclusion that it can't be done - the beast is too incorrigible to tame. Just my two cents.

[SDuderstadt]

114. We do not have "democratic capitalism"

dude. Your "response" is an inadvertent admission you don't even know what it is.

Just like I thought.

[TBF]

115. You're wrong. Look it up, dude. nt

[SDuderstadt]

116. YOU look it up...

if you remotely knew what it was, you wouldn't claim it's our current economic system, dude.

[Freddie Stubbs]

84. No, I would prefer for President Obama to complete his term and

run for another one.

[seabeyond]

85. wtf? no. two different countries. duh.... nt

[readmoreoften]

91. Yes. Will may be the last country to revolt. But the process is starting.

[kctim]

93. Damn the Bohemian Grove!

[Duer 157099]

95. Don't blame the trees, man.

:rofl:

[kctim]

103. Only the blind cannot see that it is

"Happening"

[librechik]

102. I wish we had done it back in 2004

or sooner...

[cherokeeprogressive]

105. Storm the gates!... er... Damn the torpedoes!... er... Give 'em hell!... er... Down with up!... er..

This OP falls into the category I call "Glad it's not written by someone who designs, builds, or works on commercial airplanes".

[Duer 157099]

106. Then you'd be really, really depressed to find out what I do

:D

[SDuderstadt]

109. Oh, please, please tell me...

you do not work on airplanes in any way, shape or fashion.

[cherokeeprogressive]

118. Some kind of Engineer. I'd bet on it. You can design really cool screwdrivers...

but can't find your way out of a paper bag.

Of course I could be wrong... I have been before.

I call my two ex-wives "mistakes".

[uponit7771]

108. lol!

[yawnmaster]

110. absolutely not. We have our 2, 4 and 6 year elections...

for federal as well as our state and local elections.
I don't want to see those elections overturned by those I have not elected and by processes that go against our democratic system.

It is necessary in some countries and situations, but not ours, at this time.

[SDuderstadt]

111. Well said...n/t

[grahamhgreen]

113. It can and will happen here if we don't get real change. Don't believe the hype.

[JoePhilly]

121. The "hype" is from the members of the far left and the tea party ... each demading

the country move in totally opposite directions.

[grahamhgreen]

125. THE POLLS, the people want, no demand, an end to the wars, taxing the ultra-rich,

ending "free" trade.

That's the majority, not the fringe.

That's the same direction, not opposite.

Don't believe the hype.

[JoePhilly]

127. I'll be wating to see you leading the revolution, which days should I block ...

on my calender?

:shrug:

[grahamhgreen]

128. We don't need a revolution - just representation.

[badtoworse]

152. There is only one poll that matters in this country...

It's called an election.

[Codeine]

117. We've had an autocratic dictator in power for 30 years?!

WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T ANYBODY TELL ME?!?!?!?

[JVS]

124. What did you think the reagangasm last sunday was about?

[Throd]

132. Reagan left office when his term expired.

[immoderate]

136. But Reaganism has lingered. Every president since has been a Reaganite.

--imm

[Throd]

119. No, not at all. President Obama was elected in a free and fair election.

[sofa king]

120. Those bastard Republicans are going to have to think twice if they want to steal it again.

[cottonseed]

122. Snore.

Go eat a Twinkie.

[harun]

123. Egypt has a long way to go, free elections, independent judiciary, free press and

free political parties.

We do however need Democracy in the United States as well. We are a Corporate Representative Republic. An oligarchy of the super wealthy. So I do wish for reforms to fix that. It will take generations in the USA as well as it will take generations in Egypt.

[fascisthunter]

129. YOU Knocked it right out of the Park

the burn.... the burning truth.

[Telly Savalas]

133. Use mass protests to get the military to take over the government?

Nah, I'm good.

[badtoworse]

150. Well put!

[hack89]

134. No - I like Obama in the White House.

that's why I voted for him.

[JVS]

140. Would this hinder my mom getting her social security checks?

Because I don't have room to move her here, and I don't want to move back there to pay the bills.

[TBF]

141. The only thing hindering Social Security are the two parties who want to bankrupt

it to give more money to the rich. If you want to save your mom's check you'd best be in the street marching (and bring her too - if there's a wheel chair I'll push her myself).

Please read this thread about social security that Faryn has put together: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x401537

[Le Taz Hot]

142. Oh, HELL yes!

Our Constitution is a perfectly good document and we have 200+ years of Democracy under out belt. With draconian cuts to SS coming down the pike, I think it's going to reawaken the Boomers as we actually KNOW how to take to the streets. Maybe the youngins would like to join us this time.

[treestar]

145. We did it in 1776

It's sad that we don't have an enemy?

[badtoworse]

149. No, I unequivocally do not want what happened in Egypt to happen here.

We have elections that decide who governs - our situation is nothing like Egypt's.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

153. WE DO THIS EVERY FOUR YEARS

Its called elections. Its a peaceful way to change governments.
There is no need for violent revolutions when all you have to do is convince enough people to vote your way.

[creon]

159. People do not vote

40 to 60% of the electorate do not vote.
Millions know next to nothing about government, politics or current affairs. And, make no effort to learn about any of that.

People in the USA are not capable of doing what the Egyptian people did.