Will Mubarak be Replaced by Egypt’s “Mr. Torture”? Obama hopes so.

[Karmadillo]

http://www.allgov.com/US_and_the_World/ViewNews/Will_Mubarak_be_Replaced_by_Egypts_Mr_Torture_110205

Will Mubarak be Replaced by Egypt’s “Mr. Torture”?
Saturday, February 05, 2011

In one of his first moves during the ongoing political crisis, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt appointed Omar Suleiman as his vice president, hoping the change, along with the dismissal of the rest of his cabinet, would placate the hundreds of thousands of protestors threatening to topple his regime. Now that Mubarak has said he will step down later this year, many experts believe Suleiman could become Egypt’s next president—a change that would not really amount to change at all.

“Mubarak and Suleiman are the same person,” Emile Nakhleh, a former top Middle East analyst for the CIA, told ABC News. “They are not two different people in terms of ideology and reform.”

Described as friendly, suave and sophisticated, Suleiman has another, darker side to his reputation.

Since 1993, Suleiman has served as the head of Egypt’s intelligence service, making him one of the most feared people in the country. In his capacity as Mubarak’s top internal security man, Suleiman was directly involved in the CIA program that shipped suspected terrorists to Egyptian prisons.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/world/middleeast/06munich.html

Obama Backs Suleiman-Led Transition

MUNICH — The Obama administration on Saturday formally threw its weight behind a gradual transition in Egypt, backing attempts by the country’s vice president, Gen. Omar Suleiman, to broker a compromise with opposition groups and prepare for new elections in September.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, speaking to a conference here, said it was important to support Mr. Suleiman as he seeks to defuse street protests and promises to reach out to opposition groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood. Administration officials said earlier that Mr. Suleiman and other military-backed leaders in Egypt are also considering ways to provide President Hosni Mubarak with a graceful exit from power.

“That takes some time,” Mrs. Clinton said. “There are certain things that have to be done in order to prepare.”

Her message, echoed by Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany and Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain, was a notable shift in tone from the past week, when President Obama, faced with violent clashes in Cairo, demanded that Mr. Mubarak make swift, dramatic changes.

more...

[cali]

1. unrec

[Better Believe It]

6. Sure can't have any posts critical of the secret police head and torturer on DU'ers front page!

[Karmadillo]

18. Why?

nt

[chimpymustgo]

30. Seriously cali. You owe an explanation.

[SidDithers]

53. No, an explanation is not owed...nt

[derby378]

2. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

Protesters, you've just been had. :mad:

[tabatha]

4. Why don't you wait for the elections?

Please see South Africa example.

[Better Believe It]

9. You're comparing South Africa with Egypt? Perhaps you think Egypt had aparthied?

[tabatha]

11. It is a good model to follow

a transition of one government to another, peacefully, no matter what the government structures. Someone else on this board also suggested it as a model.

This written by a protester:

"So before Mubarak resigns he must sign a presidential decree delegating all of his authorities to his vice president until their current terms end in September. Mubarak issued similar decrees, transferring his powers to the prime minister, when he was hospitalized in 2004 and 2009. In addition, Mubarak must issue decrees lifting the "state of emergency" that has allowed him to suppress Egyptians' civil liberties since 1981 and ordering the release or trial of those held in administrative detention without charge - estimated to be in the thousands."

See:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x353779

And no, you are jumping to conclusion when you assumed I thought Egypt had apartheid - it did not have one based on color. But, it did in effect, have economic apartheid and a state of emergency since 1981. Not the same name, but many of the same practices.

"In addition, Mubarak must issue decrees lifting the "state of emergency" that has allowed him to suppress Egyptians' civil liberties since 1981 and ordering the release or trial of those held in administrative detention without charge - estimated to be in the thousands. "

[sufrommich]

3. I'll be curious to see the posts here if the Egyptians find this

an acceptable short term solution. I imagine they will quickly be thrown under the bus by DUs armchair revolutionaries.

[Better Believe It]

10. Do you support the Obama administrations decision to throw Egyptian protesters under the bus?

Just what we need to lead a transition to a democratic government, the head of Egypt's secret police and CIA torture activist!

Why do you think that's a good thing?

[sufrommich]

16. I don't think the Obama administration is throwing Egyptians

under the bus.I think they're offering alternatives to a power vacuum. I also don't think were in the position to demand anything from the Egyptian people and we recognize that.

"Just what we need to lead a transition to a democratic government"
Your use of the word "we" when posting on what the Egyptians need to do in their transition to democracy speaks volumes. I imagine you're going to be pretty disappointed if "your" Egyptians don't react they way you want them to.

[Better Believe It]

19. So you defend the administrations support for a government led by the head of the secret police.

Is that right?

Well, "we" American progressives do not support dictatorships in any land.

I'm sorry if you consider that "interference" in world affairs and making "demands" on dictators.

[sufrommich]

21. I support the Egyptian peoples right to transition to a

democracy.If the Egyptians don't want Suleiman as interim leader, they'll let that be know.
What I don't support is chaos and destruction in order to satisfy your revolution boner.

[snot]

29. The chaos has been orchestrated by Mubarek and those the Obama admin. favor.

[sufrommich]

36. The chaos right at this moment is that everyday life for

Egyptians has come to a standstill, places of work closed, no school, no banks,no paycheck,people who lived hand to mouth before the revolution scrambling to find food,no security in their homes.
Lets let the Egyptians decide whether or not the terms with their government are acceptable, I swear some of you are as condescending and patriarchal as your right wing cohorts.

[snot]

28. There are alternatives to Suleiman, and the Obama admin COULD have legitimated them.

See http://c-cyte.blogspot.com/2011/02/where-egypt-is-goes-protesters-to-be.html for context.

Instead, Obama chose to support change in name only.

[martymar64]

62. A better example is the immediate aftermath of the First Gulf War

Bush Sr. encouraged the Shiites in Southern Iraq and the Kurds in Northern Iraq to rise up against Saddam Hussein, only to cut them loose without any support.

We all know how that turned out, Saddam came down on both groups like a ton of bricks.

[fascisthunter]

45. better than the arm-chair supporters of Oppression

[sufrommich]

47. Hmmm. Are you including the opposition groups that met with

Suleiman today?

[fascisthunter]

48. no, just posters here on DU

a minority that is.

[EFerrari]

5. What certain things have to be done to "prepare"?

And why didn't the Americans demand "time" for Zelaya or Aristide, hmmm?

Well, this still puts our government to the left of Israel, Italy and Blair. lol

[ProSense]

7. So many experts on

Egypt.

"President Mubarak, who should certainly step down and participate in a peaceful transition"



Transitions are just that, similar to how the outgoing government participates in a transitions after an election.

[TheKentuckian]

13. A transition from Bush to McCain with talk of McCain to Snowe one day, huh?

Mubaraks hand picked US muscle is not a transition of power but a means for the existing structure to maintain it.

[ProSense]

17. Leading a transition

to a new government and elections.

It's a transition, meaning old to new.

[tekisui]

23. Suleiman is corrupt, not a change and cannot be trusted.

He has a history of political oppression and torture. There is no reason to believe he would be an honest broker in this transition. He is no different than Mubarak, just a different face, and will likely not allow truly free and fair elections. He should not have US support, not even for 7 months.

[TheKentuckian]

34. A transition from mamba to python. The names and faces are not important.

[Inuca]

26. Actually

if these would have been the ONLY viable choices, a transition from Bush to Snowe would have been extremely welcome.

[TheKentuckian]

35. False choice and the same ideology if it wasn't.

Viable is becoming twisted as a word.

[tekisui]

25. False comparision to other outgoing governments.

This is a group of people who have participated in political oppression for 30 years, including violations of human rights and gross restrictions on speech and information flow.

It is not at all like transfers of powers between parties. No participants in the old regime should be permitted to lead the transition. That is absurd.

[Karmadillo]

31. +1

nt

[ProSense]

39. "President Mubarak, who should certainly step down and participate in a peaceful transition"

There's another Mubarak?

Does Feingold know?

[tekisui]

40. Big difference between participate and lead, don't you think?

[Junkdrawer]

8. Heavy Sigh. Hitler Out...Himmler In....

Just great.

[Inuca]

12. Do you know the meaning of the word

"transition"? Or "interim"?

[Junkdrawer]

15. In the Mubarak/Suleiman dialect, it means....

"Stack the decks against opposition candidates. Round up and torture anyone suspected of leading the protests."

[Inuca]

24. I was not referring to their dialect

but to ours. And I know that you may claim that there is not much of a difference (apologies in advance if I putting the wrong words on your keyboard), but there is.

[TBF]

14. The empire marches on ... 'whew that was hard work. nt

[eleny]

20. Given this OP just posted by Mira here at DU - the transition team is an ugly bunch

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x353953

[Agony]

38. +a must read+

[Karmadillo]

41. Indeed.

nt

[randr]

22. Obama better be careful

This is a move that may likely backfire. As independence and dignity become rallying cries throughout the mid-east, all connections to the "old" oligarchies will be suspect. If we want to get ahead of the tidal wave we better be setting a good example to the world. We need to strengthen our commitment to our own ideology.

[blindpig]

27. And what is our 'ideology'?

Is it the happy talk about democracy, or is it the reality of empire?

The continuity of American foreign policy is notable. Whether a D or an R, it is the necessities of the chambers of commerce which dictates policy, all else is window dressing.

[randr]

37. Good question!

I think it is time we redefine it before another group beats us to it.

[maryf]

42. Seeing as we give a billion and a half to the Egyptian military annually

I think we are pretty clear what our ideology is...maintain the empire...

[Karmadillo]

51. A difficult fact to admit when we like to pretend we're not maintaining an empire.

nt

[maryf]

52. OH, but really we're just trying to spread democracy!

;) thanks for all work here!

[Karmadillo]

59. We're a selfless country. The world has never seen the likes of us.

:hi:

[maryf]

63. The poor unlucky world!

:fistbump:

[mmonk]

32. Suleiman is a bad choice if for nothing more than the symbolism alone.

[northernlights]

33. Don't worry, it's all good.

According to Holder, we're assured people will not be tortured when we "rendition" them to various countries. Doubtless there is no longer blood on our hands. :sarcasm:

"On Aug. 24, 2009, Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Special Task Force on Interrogations and Transfer Policies had finished its review. The United States will continue to send individuals to other countries, stated a Department of Justice Press press release, but the United States will seek "assurances from the receiving country" that the suspect will not be tortured."


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/176/end-the-use-of-extreme-rendition/

[JNelson6563]

43. More conjecture & DU gets hysterical, right on cue.

[Arkana]

44. Pretty much.

And all of it under the guise of "MUST...BLAME...OBAMA....BRAAAAAIIIIIIINNNNSSSSSSS"

[fascisthunter]

46. Track Records Matter... DUers seem to have a better Grasp of things than you do

[sufrommich]

49. You don't speak for "DUers" . nt

[fascisthunter]

50. fail... I speak for myself, and from my point of view, DUers have a better grasp than you or...

the person I replied to. Try not to make shit up... it makes you look desperate.

[sufrommich]

54. Right. "Grasp" is a matter of opinion. What shit did I make up? nt

[fascisthunter]

55. sometimes just saying something in reply is really a bad substitution...

for a reply as you have just achieved. Good bye spinner. If ya can't be honest with yourself, don't speak to me. Thanks.

[JNelson6563]

64. And you know what of me, exactly?

[SidDithers]

56. Unrec...

SSDD.

Sid

[grahamhgreen]

57. Out of 80 million, they want the guy that tortured? If we really want to

transform the middle east - our best chance is to push a pro-democracy advocate.

[kenny blankenship]

58. To loosen the tongue of an Australian suspect, he once ordered the death of the man next to him

by a karate kick. When Washington asked him to take a prisoner's blood sample for DNA testing, he offered to send them the whole arm. When he was waiting for a fresh batch of detainees to come in, aides once found him stabbing the air with a pencil. He said he was "just killing Time."

He is the most interesting torturer in the world.


"Stay guilty my friends."

[grahamhgreen]

61. More on that:

"Shortly after 9/11, Australian citizen Mamdouh Habib was captured by Pakistani security forces and, under US pressure, torture by Pakistanis. He was then rendered (with an Australian diplomats watching) by CIA operatives to Egypt, a not uncommon practice. In Egypt, Habib merited Suleiman's personal attention. As related by Richard Neville, based on Habib's memoir:

Habib was interrogated by the country's Intelligence Director, General Omar Suleiman.... Suleiman took a personal interest in anyone suspected of links with Al Qaeda. As Habib had visited Afghanistan shortly before 9/11, he was under suspicion. Habib was repeatedly zapped with high-voltage electricity, immersed in water up to his nostrils, beaten, his fingers were broken and he was hung from metal hooks.

That treatment wasn't enough for Suleiman, so:

To loosen Habib's tongue, Suleiman ordered a guard to murder a gruesomely shackled Turkistan prisoner in front of Habib - and he did, with a vicious karate kick.

After Suleiman's men extracted Habib's confession, he was transferred back to US custody, where he eventually was imprisoned at Guantanamo. His "confession" was then used as evidence in his Guantanamo trial."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/01/30-2

[A Messenger of Hope]

60. Establishing Freedom for the Egyptian People - Next Steps

Establishing Freedom for the Egyptian People
(Remember the Power of the Pen is greater than the Sword)

1.Do not wait for the final ouster of the present Government to begin developing an interim Government.
2.Egyptian People should begin forming a Team of individuals to represent the people now.
3.Individuals should include those that are most closely aligned with the Egyptian People and have knowledge on economic development.
4.Do not set up Political Parties but focus on a Team that represents the humanitarian needs of the people. Political Parties will only divide the people and take away the focus of all the Egyptians on a humanitarian basis.
5.Include representation from the Military people that are not part of the existing government
-Keep in mind that the Military people only seek to maintain the same income and benefits that have been afforded them under the present Government (if they are assured this will be maintained, they will support a democratic country—let them know they can become of the Angels of Hope for the Egyptian people)
6.Once the Team has been formed, develop a list of priorities of the issues that will need to be dealt with right away (food, medical supplies, etc.) and how they can be accomplished.
7.Immediately develop a website to keep the people informed of what is occurring so they are not discouraged. Let them know of the Team’s accomplishments.
8.Develop an International Team of consultants that will assist the Egyptian people in transitioning to the Democracy they seek.
-Countries that are already a Democratic country or are transitioning in order to understand their Lessons Learned of what works and what doesn’t
-Request assistance in meeting immediate humanitarian needs for the people
9.Commit to the people that a government voted by the people will occur no later than the September election if not sooner and completion of a transition process.

The existing Government has only one remaining excuse as to why they can not leave. The excuse is that the Country will fall apart as there is no set plan to transition the Egyptians to the Democracy they seek.

Eliminate the excuse; build the Team and the freedom the Egyptians seek to achieve will occur.

God is Great and hears his children…continue to pray on a daily basis for God is Freedom.