Ayn Rand Collected SS

[lame54]

http://www.patiastephens.com/2010/12/05/ayn-rand-received-social-security-medicare/

Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Rand collected a total of $11,002 in monthly Social Security payments. O’Connor received $2,943 between December 1974 and his death in November 1979.

The couple registered for benefits shortly after Rand, a two-pack-a-day smoker, had surgery for lung cancer in the summer of 1974. Medicare had been enacted nine years earlier in the Social Security Act of 1965 to provide health insurance to those age 65 and older.

Rand herself called altruism a “basic evil” and referred to those who perpetuate the system of taxation and redistribution as “looters” and “moochers.” She wrote in her book “The Virtue of Selfishness” that accepting any government controls is “delivering oneself into gradual enslavement.” In a 1972 edition of her newsletter, she said:

Morally and economically, the welfare state creates an ever accelerating downward pull. Morally, the chance to satisfy demands by force spreads the demands wider and wider, with less and less pretense at justification. Economically, the forced demands of one group create hardships for all others, thus producing an inextricable mixture of actual victims and plain parasites. Since need, not achievement, is held as the criterion of rewards, the government necessarily keeps sacrificing the more productive groups to the less productive, gradually chaining the top level of the economy, then the next level, then the next.

Rand often spoke of moral absolutism, saying “There can be no compromise on basic principles,” but the realities of aging and illness seem to have softened her stance. Social Security, and perhaps Medicare, allowed Rand and her husband to maintain their quality of life, remain in their apartment and live out their final years with dignity.

[PeaceNikki]

1. lolz

k&r

[patrick t. cakes]

13. my reaction as well

[Poboy]

2. recommend

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gregorian]

7. Weakling!!!!

[Hannah Bell]

4. "softened her stance" my ass. just another hypocrite.

[fishwax]

197. +1

[neverforget]

5. The selfishness of this woman was incredible and so was her

hypocrisy.

[boston bean]

9. ya think??

she was/is poison..:mad:

[neverforget]

22. What's worse is that a whole political movement is built around it

It's all about me! me! me! me! me! me! me! me! me! :puke:

[boston bean]

23. when the tea party first started you know what their call to arms was?

their next door neighbor free loading and possibly get a mortgage modification.

Not the banks, not wall street, not derivatives, not credit default swaps, not corporate greed.

Their neighbors were free loaders, stupid and living beyond their means.

the whole thing makes me sick. PUKE is right!

edit sp

[neverforget]

33. They're freeloaders but don't touch my SS or Medicare!

hypocrites

[pezDispenser]

49. You are 100% correct

And we're seeing it again with this talk of states being able to declare bankruptcy inorder to default on thier pension obligations. Absolutely sickening.

[Enthusiast]

93. Good point.

I remember the staged outrage on the trading floor.

[Alcibiades]

111. Plus, it wasn't their actual neighbors

It was the imaginary neighbors summoned up by Rick Sanchez. Had their actual neighbors gotten an actual mortgage modification, the teabaggers would not know about it.

Plus, the narrative crafted by Sanchez and the other teabaggers has been that it has been poor people, or freeloaders, who caused this mess, ignoring the sorts of complicated derivatives that acted as a risk multiplier, or the level of leverage on Wall Street. Also, they cannot answer basic questions, such as "what is the average value of homes foreclosed upon in the housing crisis?" and "Are you sure these are really low-income borrowers?" The housing crisis was caused at least as much by the favorable tax treatment of capital gains on the sale of a home and the "flip this house" industry that revolved around it. In other words, speculators. Just anecdotally--and I'd love to see some real data on this--many of the folks who ran into trouble are folks in "hot" real estate markets who kept piling on mortgage debt to make improvements, getting their homes reappraised, piling on more debt, etc. These folks were not the poor, but upper middle class, supposedly financially savvy people.

[Baltimore]

156. Sanchez/Santelli

It was Rick Santelli, not Rick Sanchez. Opinions on Rick Sanchez are mixed, but he was definitely not a teabagger.

[HughBeaumont]

188. Rick Santelli is quite the bastard.

The work TV has his almost-as-bad-as-Faux employers (CNBC) on for stock/fed news. GOD this guy's an idiot.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/98

[Alcibiades]

226. My bad

You're right, of course: I got them confused. In my brain.

Apparently, I don't watch enough TV.

[catzies]

174. That's EXACTLY right. A turd on CNBS ranted on the floor of the Chicago Merc

That POS was Rick Santelli and his "speech" was pure crap:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853

:puke: Dinsingenuous vacuous malodorous idiot!!!!!

[Golden Raisin]

146. And everyone else

can die like a dog in the street.

[steve2470]

6. k and r nt

[fascisthunter]

8. I know plenty of righties on SS

bunch of selfish goons.

[bbinacan]

10. Wow,

I'd love to see the docs from the FOIA.

[Cirque du So-What]

11. It's good to keep in mind

that Alan Greenspan worshiped at the feet of that harpy...probably schtupped her as well.

[russspeakeasy]

68. He probably would have, but he was too old. I wonder if

Andrea wears a blindfold.??

[CLANG]

167. I'm sure it's mutual. Blindfold, paper bag, whatever it takes!

[HughBeaumont]

89. Aaaaaaand I just lost my damned appetite. For the next month.

:puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl: :puke: :rofl:

[NAO]

126. He put a wreath of flower shaped like a $ sign on her coffin

***that's just creepy***

[charlie]

12. Atlas Mooched n/t

[Xipe Totec]

17. Guffaw!

:rofl:

[bobbolink]

21. Now THAT would make a great billboard!

[Kurovski]

58. Just too good.

:rofl: DUzy!



It was a dark day When JeffR left.

Come back, Jeff&Nance! DU is changing soon...

[alittlelark]

75. +100

[myrna minx]

150. Genius.

:rofl:

[NNN0LHI]

14. CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!1!1!1!

Oops, posted to the wrong thread. Sorry.

:spank:

Don

[The_Commonist]

15. Slave...

What a moocher.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Even their intellectual heroes were hypocrites

Have you ever heard of a movement so lacking in the basics of reality, common sense or wisdom?

[AlbertCat]

53. Have you ever heard of a movement so lacking in the basics of reality, common sense or wisdom?

Most religions?

[eppur_se_muova]

183. "Even" ??? What's this "even" ??

Hyprocrisy is the basic foundation of all the RW grievances. Of course their heroes wallow in it; it is what creates them and gives them strength.

[StarsInHerHair]

213. yep, the boss on "9 to 5" his description as a lying, sexest, hypocritical...pig

fits them to a T. There are probably more adjectives that I've forgotten, it was a long list:7

[Skink]

18. I'm sure it all went to charity.

[LuvNewcastle]

19. Ayn Rand spent her whole life

caring only for herself. Her philosophy was nothing extraordinary, it was only about selfishness and greed. What a waste of a life.

[boston bean]

27. was she an atheist? do you know.

not that I care who is or who isn't, but the party that loves her are all god fearing, jesus lovin, christians.

quite ironic isn't it.

[NutmegYankee]

34. She hated Christianity.

All faiths teach that altruism is the highest virtue. She said it was selfishness. This naturally put her in conflict with faith.

[AlbertCat]

57. All faiths teach that altruism is the highest virtue.

And most sane atheists know that altruism not only helps those given it, but those giving it. It is necessary for any kind of social network, from bees to Facebook.

[janet118]

136. self interest, well understood . . .

Alexis de Tocqueville in Democracy in America

[CLANG]

168. Altruism comes from the heart, not from religion

Unfortunately many peoples hearts have been darkened by greed and avarice.

[peopleb4money]

85. well except for Satanism

[NutmegYankee]

90. I thought that was Ayn Randiism?

[Nevernose]

108. Seriously, there is very little difference between The Satanic Bible

And objectivism, except for some pseudo-mystical mumbo-jumbo. Anton LaVey essentially just ripped off Ayn Rand.

[chillspike]

40. Yes, Ayn Rand was a declared atheist.

[cognoscere]

78. I think a more accurate term would be assholist - someone who is

an asshole, sides with assholes, and looks up to them.

[Kurovski]

59. Many only pretend to be religious.

You very rarely get anywhere unless you pretend toward religiosity.

Ask George W Bush, it changed his life!

[NAO]

128. For all her evils, I will always be grateful to her for rescuing me from Fundamentalist Christianity

I was infatuated with her back in high school and early college. As a DIRECT result of her philosophy, I left fundamentalist Christianity and became an atheist. I soon repudiated Objectivism, but never went back to christianity or any kind of belief in god or gods.

So thought I loath her, I will never forget that without her influence I might still be in the grip of religious superstition.

[Curmudgeoness]

20. And I should be surprised? They all collect SS while telling us

how horrible it is.

[JVS]

24. Moocher!

[Ilsa]

25. That damn socialist!! :-) nt

[SpiralHawk]

26. She was such a total RepubliBagger - a complete freakin hypocrite

This is sooo typical of Republicons & their easily brainFOXfuzzed Bagger Suckerpuppets.

[ck4829]

28. That looter was taking our money? Unbelievable!

K&R

[Old and In the Way]

29. Thanks for posting!

Amazing, innit? Guess she fell short of her own ideals.

[madinmaryland]

30. hypo-fucking-crits. Every single fucking one of them!

[DeSwiss]

31. K&R n/t

[Obamanaut]

32. How many years did she pay into SS? nt

[chillspike]

41. That's what she would say

She'd say she payed into social security for years so she deserved the money.

[Obamanaut]

43. And she would be right. Anything else would be as if the government

had seized her money.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

71. Doubtful she paid much in to Medicare to cover that surgery ...

.... and recovery. Seeing as though it was enacted in '65.

No doubt about it - Atlas Mooched

[txlibdem]

208. Atlas Mooched!

Oh, that is just beautiful irony.

I'm sorry that she got cancer but I'm glad that "the evil government" had a safety net in place to help her when her right wing pals were nowhere to be found. Fast forward to 2011, the Republican Party is still at it, trying to *dismantle* the safety net for the rest of us.

Chew on that, tea party supporters!

[lame54]

130. “There can be no compromise on basic principles,”...

“There can be no compromise on basic principles,” Ayn Rand

[Obamanaut]

154. Or "You seized my money and I am entitled to its return." nt

[lame54]

158. "even if it costs me my reputation"...

not a real quote

[bongbong]

163. Your "point" has been thoroughly debunked

In the comments at the original link. THOROUGHLY debunked, even though some of her brainwashed acolytes came on to try to defend her.

[Obamanaut]

181. Some questions linger. DOB 1905, add 65 = 1970 SS eligible (roughly).

Surgery summer 1974, apply/register for benefits November, from OP "Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Rand collected a total of $11,002 in monthly Social Security payments"

Did Medicare retroactively pay for surgery (note dates of surgery vs application for benefits)

[bongbong]

182. at the linked article

At the linked article, one of the comments states she started on SS when she was 59 because of her lung cancer brought on by her beloved cigarettes.

Her record of being so totally wrong on pretty much all of her key talking points is so bad it make me rethink the validity of atheism.

[Obamanaut]

184. The linked article states "An interview recently surfaced

that was conducted in 1998 by the Ayn Rand Institute with a social worker who says she helped Rand and her husband, Frank O’Connor, sign up for Social Security and Medicare in 1974."

And a comment gives another date. Which is accurate - a blog, or a comment on that blog? Or neither. The question from my earlier post is yet unanswered. It may be that it won't be.

And recall also in the article, part of the OP, the inclusive dates of SS benefits Dec 1974 to -.

I'm still going to go with she paid into SS, it was her absolute right to take from it. It was her money.

[bongbong]

191. "It was her money"

The talking point "It was her money" is debunked/negated in several ways, in several comments, at the original article. I'm not going to waste my time repeating them here.

[Obamanaut]

193. Debunking and varied opinions are not the same. She paid her

SS taxes, she was entitled to get SS benefits.

Just like me. Just like McCain. People don't like it, because some want 'means testing', but not liking the facts does not negate them.

[rhett o rick]

200. Who cares? The witch was a hypocrite. She told others not to accept money from the government, yet

she did. Doesnt matter the stupid rationality, she accepted government money while telling others not to. Her answer for poverty was "let em die".

[Obamanaut]

204. Perhaps she thought the SS benefits were dollars that she had paid. Oh, they were. nt

[rhett o rick]

211. Doesnt matter. She was a hypocrite. nm

[CLANG]

170. But how do you get $11,000/month?? You'd have to live to 250!!!

[Obamanaut]

179. It was not $11,000/month, but rather a total. Look again at the OP, you'll

see "Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Rand collected a total of $11,002 in monthly Social Security payments."

Interestingly, the surgery was in the summer of 1974, but they did not apply for benefits until November. Does this mean that she paid for the surgery, since they didn't register/apply until Nov?

If this is the case, why are people getting their knickers knotted?

Or, does/did Medicare pay retroactively?

[CLANG]

189. Yes, I was already corrected on that - thanks.

[SpankMe]

135. The point of Rand's critics in this thread is...

...that social security is not voluntary. It is taken out of your pay by force, whether you like it or not - by the government. I don't think it's easy, or even possible, to opt out of SS. Thus, the concept of social security is in opposition to portions of Rand's philosophies.

The fact that she paid into it, and that it is effectively an insurance plan and not a welfare type of benefit, does nothing to take away from the fact that Ayn Rand willingly invoked and materially benefited from an involuntary-tax-and-redistribution type of government program - which her philosophy abhors. I believe there's at least a kernel of legitimacy to throwing down the hypocrite card here.

[rhett o rick]

201. Most of her ilk are hypocrites. nm

[fascisthunter]

221. Correct!

[Kingofalldems]

35. Freepers won't like this one

[lame54]

36. That's where a good case of denial comes in

[madinmaryland]

39. Huh? Half of the freepers are on SS or Medicare. How do you think

Rimjob pays for that website of his!

[Kingofalldems]

45. But-- but--but--most of them claim to run businesses and such

[madinmaryland]

55. Free Repuke is a business?

:wtf:

[Kingofalldems]

132. No, a lot of the posters over there claim to run a business

which I guarantee is BS.

[louis-t]

155. Selling their old baseball cards on eBay is not a business.

Neither is selling their mother's old jewelry.

[CLANG]

171. Like Joe claimed to be a plumber? All right-wingers are lying sacks of shit.

[bongbong]

192. Mostly meth labs

Research indicates that most, if not all, of the "small businesses" bragged about on by wingnuts on chatboards fall into only two categories.

1) Meth labs (~20%)
2) Their imagination (~80%)

[saras]

37. Utterly unsurprising, and in line with her philosophy

[jpak]

38. She also wrote bad political fiction AKA "fairy tales"

yup

[rhett o rick]

202. Hey, hey, say what you like but when I was in high school I loved her "fairy tales".

When I got into the real world I realized she was a nut case. But her books made capitalism sound so romantic. Damn, reality really sucks.

[66 dmhlt]

42. Atlas didn't shrug. Atlas stuck his damn hand out! (Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!)

[B2G]

44. Social Security is not 'welfare'

It's the government returning the money you paid in after you retire.

[kestrel91316]

70. You know that. I know that. THE POINT IS: the noisemakers on the right

seem to have forgotten that and call it mooching, no different than welfare.

[Sherman A1]

95. Precisely

We get it..... They get it as well. They just don't want us to get our part of what they believe to be "their" money.

[trotsky]

97. Not entirely true.

Many, many people outlive the meager amount they paid into the system (particularly low-income earners), but they still receive checks, because it's a safety net.

[txlibdem]

218. Most people never live long enough to receive back what they paid in

The "average" life expectancy numbers are skewed by centenarians and supercentenarians (those who live past 100 or 110 years of age respectively). Many people don't live even to retirement age, if they have no spouse or minor children to claim benefits then their "contributions" are lost.

As to the claim that the low-income people "rake in the dough" from the system:

"In households making less than $35,000--which were clustered in St. Paul and Minneapolis--the average life expectancy for these people was less than 75.

But in tonier second-ring suburbs like Chanhassen, Minnetonka, and Eagan, where median household income was more than $75,000, people had life expectancies of 82 or higher."

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2010/10/twin_cities_poo.php

So you've actually got that backwards.

[trotsky]

224. OK you've posted data showing that in general, the poor live longer than the rich.

This in no way disputes what I said, you do realize. You've got to index that for SS taxes withheld, and benefits paid. In no way am I claiming that "low-income people 'rake in the dough'" and I would appreciate you not assigning me strawman arguments. Thanks!

[Name removed]

225. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trotsky]

227. Yes, I flipped the words by mistake.

However, the GAO itself supports my statement. And your ridiculous personal attack on my motives is especially unwarranted. I would like an apology but will be shocked if I get one.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03387.pdf

Differences by race in the relationship between taxes paid and benefits received under Social Security are due mainly to differences in lifetime earnings, the incidence of disability, and mortality among the groups. In the aggregate, blacks and Hispanics have higher disability rates and lower lifetime earnings, and thus as a group tend to receive greater benefits relative to taxes than whites. However, whites with low lifetime earnings or high disability rates also receive greater benefits relative to taxes than their higher-income or nondisabled counterparts. Higher benefits relative to taxes paid are associated with lower lifetime earnings and higher disability incidence.

And please review all the graphs and data in Appendix II which lay out the facts pretty clearly.

Oh and for the record, I am A-OK with the poor and minorities receiving more benefits than they paid in. That to me means the system is a good one.

[txlibdem]

229. Your quote does not support your premise

The quote says that the disabled receive a higher percentage of benefits versus taxes paid than those who are not disabled. This in no way backs up your point that "many people" receive far more than they ever pay in. It simply says that the ratio of putting to taking out is higher.

And figure 2 on page 10 of the PDF you linked to shows that whites receive more across all income levels than blacks or hispanics. Not until you get into the highest income bracket do whites receive less than hispanics, yet they still receive more than blacks even in that highest income bracket.

Now you say that you're "ok" with some people receiving more than they paid in. If that is the case then exactly what was the point of your original comment?

[trotsky]

230. Did you actually read the report?

"Higher benefits relative to taxes paid are associated with lower lifetime earnings"

This means - regardless of race - that the less you paid in over your lifetime, the greater the benefits (in relation to what was paid in) you receive. That's the simple fact of the matter, straight from the GAO. If you have a dispute, take it up with them.

Do I get my apology yet?

[txlibdem]

231. You seem to be backpedaling on your original comment

I must not be understanding you at all. Your original comment decried that many people receive more than they put in. Then you say you're ok with that. Now you seem to be trying to create a conflict about benefits paid versus benefits received, as if I am the one who said that was a bad thing --something that was your original comment.

I just don't get what your message on the topic is. Do you dislike that some people get more out of the system than they put in or do you think that is proof that the system works --it functions as a safety net?!?

It's like you're arguing with yourself.

[trotsky]

232. I never "decried" anything.

You have already decided for yourself who I am, whom I fight for, and what my position is. You've been wrong on all counts. And I still got no apology, despite your attack being deleted.

Good day to you.

[moose65]

101. Not necessarily

Many people get paid much more than they put in over the years. Besides, you're not really getting "your" money back when you receive SS payments. "Your" money has already been paid out to other retirees over the years. People who are on SS now are being paid by ME and everyone else who is working now. It's an insurance program, not an investment.

[loudsue]

187. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

:cry:

[moose65]

207. Yep

But I didn't say there was anything wrong with that! Right now, I am paying my FICA taxes, which go to my parents and my grandmother and many other people who paid in over the years. When I retire, younger workers' FICA taxes will be paying my benefits. That's how it works. I don't want to stop paying my FICA taxes... I want to keep on keepin' on!

[madmom]

109. EXCEPT... if you read the entire article AND the comments, you will find that

the government didn't start taking SS taxes until 1937. Rand was then 32, so she hadn't been paying in "all her life". She also started collecting early, age 59, because of lung cancer that she herself probably causes buy her excessive smoking.

[Statistical]

112. Ok. Most of her life. She started paying at 32, and started collecting at 69,

She was born in 1905. That means she began collecting in when she was 69 not exactly "early".

It was an earned benefit. You can make the argument that SS was too generous to that first partial generation but she paid into a compulsary system and collected an earned benefit.

SS isn't a handout.
SS isn't welfare.
SS isn't charity.
SS ins't something "given" by the state.

SS is an earned benefit.

Republicans use the gift/handout/welfare argument all the time to weaken SS.

So either SS is an earned benefit (and that includes everyone even Rand) or it isn't. So whicn is it?

[madmom]

121. She started collecting at 59, not 69, that is early, I don't begrudge anyone their

SS, as long as they are honest about what it is and why they are getting it. She was not! She took it and belittled everyone else for taking it. That my friend is the height of hypocrisy!

[chillspike]

127. not that i want to defend ayn rand but

she didn't begrudge anyone collecting SS. but she DID begrudge a tax system that collected money to fund SS. in other words, she wanted the tax system phased out and along with it SS. but her stance was, until that happened it was completely ethical for those who had paid in to collect SS benefits.

[Statistical]

214. No it is pretty simple math. Born 1905. Collected 1974.

1974 - 1905 = 69 years of age.

[sl8]

190. 59 or 69?

She was diagnosed, and received surgery for, cancer in 1974. She was born in 1905.

[lame54]

131. It's the government forcing you to save it for a rainy day...

Something Ayn-“There can be no compromise on basic principles,” - Rand was adamantly against and spent her life preaching against
but, when her rainy day came it worked in her favor - imagine that
Good for her but not for others

[corpseratemedia]

46. well according to her "philosophy" she should have passed

when her infirmities would have "naturally" taken her (like animals in the wild so the younger more superior won't be weighed down by the likes of old haggard her) without the socialistic humanitarian care she received to lengthen and maintain the quality of her life.

[CLANG]

172. Might as well call it Republican philosophy. Survival of the fittest. Unless they run out of money.

[firehorse]

47. I'd love to see this thread posted on *ahem* another site

and watch the libertarians implode.

[ingac70]

48. This needs to be pinned to the frontpage of DU forever. n/t

[Hoyt]

50. Interesting. Bet John Galt did too.

[Batgirl]

51. If this is true, what would make it worse is that she made decent coin from selling her "novels."

I think thet amount given above works out to less than $1400 per year for the 8 years. She was far from needing that extra 120 bucks per month to keep from grocery shopping in the Little Friskies aisle.

[AlbertCat]

52. and live out their final years with dignity.

What dignity? When did Rand have any dignity?

[classof56]

54. K & R

[Leithan]

56. Ayn Rand, Orly Taitz, Anna Kournikova

What are Russian chicks completely devoid of talent?

Thank you, Alex, I'll take Losers for $800

[Enthusiast]

94. LOL!

Good one!

[CLANG]

173. I take issue with Anna Kournikova. She's got a lot of 'talent'!!

If you know what I mean...:spank:

[DirkGently]

60. Wasn't age. She was an actual moocher as well, borrowing from family & stiffing them.

[rpannier]

61. Thanks so much for this post

I guess when Atlas Shrugged it was saying, "Yeah, I know I said this was wrong, but what the Hell."

[DRex]

62. Of course she did. That was her whole bit.

Be a selfish prick. Get paid.

Pretty crap philosophy.

[Maru Kitteh]

63. color me completely unsurprised. K & R

[SayitAintSo]

64. Oh now THAT is really funny.... But you know....

Facts don't really matter anymore....

[ChadwickHenryWard]

65. I think that last part needs to be restated.

She was a horrid woman, but the social safety net allowed her to live with comfort and dignity at the end of her life. That is her right, no matter how much she would like to deny it.

[russspeakeasy]

66. She was nuts and was a forerunner of Fux news.

[kestrel91316]

67. Complete hypocrisy from a RWer??? Fancy that.

[Statistical]

69. SS isn't an gift or welfare. She paid into it, she deserved every penny.

It is an earned benefit.

Why shouldn't even the most rightest of wingers collect what they paid for?



Does this entire thread seem to make SS into a charity or welfare and thus Rand should have opposed it?
Doesn't that weaken the argument for SS?

IMHO SS is no different than collecting on a life insurance policy after paying a lifetime of premiums into it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

72. What about the medicare? Clearly she didn't pay in to it for "a lifetime" ...

... (enacted in '65) yet she still managed to get lung surgery and several years of care out of it.

Atlas Mooched.

[Statistical]

100. Agreed. Medicare would have been a better example.

One of the huge problems with Medicare is even for people who do pay in for a "lifetime" the amount collected is no where equal to the amount paid out.

I just think using SS to attack Rand is foolish. SS is an earned benefit. One can say the benefit was too generous for people early in SS history but it is still an earned benefit.

[Obamanaut]

107. Did medicare pay for the surgery, or did she apply/register following

that surgery?

From the OP: "The couple registered for benefits shortly after Rand, a two-pack-a-day smoker, had surgery for lung cancer in the summer of 1974. Medicare had been enacted nine years earlier in the Social Security Act of 1965 to provide health insurance to those age 65 and older."

If registration came following surgery, can benefits be rec'd retroactively?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

209. Can benefits be rec'd retroactively?

Yes.

[Hannah Bell]

76. no one has any objection to her collecting. they have objections to her collecting

while railing against the welfare state & posing as a lone individualist & criticizing others for taking "handouts".

and as she was born in 1905, she didn't pay in for a "lifetime".

[Statistical]

104. SS isn't "welfare of the state".

She was born in 1905 so she began paying SS when she was 30 (1935). Granted she didn't pay SS during her childhood (but most people don't). She got a "break" for the years from 18-30 however generally speaking those tend to be lower wage years.

SS is an earned benefit. She paid into it, she collected her earned benefit. Calling SS "welfare of the state" merely weakens SS rather than harms Rand.

[KansDem]

169. Yes, it is "insurance."

I believe the paradox arises when someone states the need to cut SS insurance to lower the deficit, like what is going on currently. And since calls to "reform" SS is coming from the right-wing and TeaBaggers (who repeatedly describe SS as "broken"), then it especially poignant when those folks collect their benefits.

Claude Raines said it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIX_0nMlIBU

[Hannah Bell]

219. 1) I didn't say "SS is welfare of the state" but keep making things up, maybe something will stick.

[SlipperySlope]

81. I think this point very often gets overlooked on DU.

SS was not intended to be a welfare program or a general means of wealth distribution. That was (and I think continues to be) one key to the widespread support SS has among the general population. Even people who don't support the idea of wealth distribution can support the idea of paying into an "old age plan" that pays you back later.

I fear that if SS gets changed in ways that make it more closely resemble welfare, eventually support for SS will begin to fall apart.

[Statistical]

99. Well one out of three (responses) got it.

SS is an insurance program. Everyone pays, everyone benefits. Now it is progressive. The ROI% for poor is much higher than for the rich but everyone benefits.

Rand shouldn't feel "bad" or "hypocritical" for collecting an earned benefit. SS isn't a handout from the state.

If one wants to attack Rand there is a laundry list of valid reasons. Bringing SS into the mix simply reinforces this false meme that SS is a handout, welfare, charity and thus subject to cutting or eliminating.

[DirkGently]

115. Not relevant. Randian "Objectivists" decry Social Security as though it WAS a handout.

Ayn Rand's Objectivists are the ones who don't "get it." They call consistently decry Social Security on the basis of her "Objectivist" ("nobody is rational except for me and my friends") philosophy:

Social Security in any form is morally irredeemable. We should be debating, not how to save Social Security, but how to end it--how to phase it out so as to best protect both the rights of those who have paid into it, and those who are forced to pay for it today. This will be a painful task. But it will make possible a world in which Americans enjoy far greater freedom to secure their own futures.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10857&news_iv_ctrl=1021

And the same author from the Ayn Rand Center again, criticizing President Obama for supposedly celebrating the 75th anniversary of Social Security:

http://blog.aynrandcenter.org/why-social-security-needs-to-retire/

Perhaps they misinterpret their own philosophy and Ayn Rand's views.

[Statistical]

117. However SS wasn't phased out.

Rand never got her contributions back so there is no ethical double standard to participate in the benefit of a program she was required to participate in.

Now if SS had been ended and Rand ended up on welfare rather than starving that might be a valid point.

She was required to contribute to SS (if given the option she likely would have declined)
As a result she was entitled to the benefits of that program.

I don't like my health insurance. I would rather have single payer or some other mechanism to handle health care costs. That being said I am forced (due to no other options) to participate in the program I have. I wouldn't feel it unethical if the insurance I despised ended up saving my life and paying out millions.

I would STILL want to see the end of employer based health care even after the fact.

[DirkGently]

118. These are Objectivist comments being made NOW. So yes, there's hypocrisy.

[Statistical]

119. I disagree

SS still exists, thus people looking to abolish it still exist. Those people are still required to contribute. SS will last a very long time so people even in the future will be in the same situation.

One can be against SS and ethically collect their earned benefit because they were forced to participate. No different than healthcare.

The sad thing is the people who are against SS have no idea it is in their best interest to keep it for a lot of selfish reasons.

Selfish reason #1: Nobody has any idea that their future holds. Especially not 30, 40, 50 years into the future. The richest person could be sued, end up with expensive medical condition, etc. SS is the ultimate fallback plan.

Selfish reason #2: Without SS poverty among the elderly would be very high. Welfare costs would rise thus indirectly a cost would still be paid by taxpayers.

Selfish reason #3: SS contributes to a consumer class. If the elderly had no reliable means of income their consumption would decline significantly. Consumption is a necessary component of the economy and benefits shareholders for example.

So people who are "anti-SS" are stupid and shortsighted but there is nothing unethical about benefiting from a system that would were forced to participate in.

[bongbong]

164. Your "point" has been thoroughly debunked

THOROUGHLY debunked in the comment section of the original post.

[rhett o rick]

203. So I aint saying she was "unethical", the witch was hypocritical. nm

[madmom]

110. see post # 109

[demigoddess]

73. what about the idea of accepting the consequences of your actions?

Two packs a day and lung cancer, no connection there. So, of course, she had to collect social security. Otherwise she might have not maintained their quality of life, and republicans are more deserving of their quality of life than a democrat who was a waitress or a firefighter.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[era veteran]

77. Well, she did die alone, bitter, and unloved.

An awful woman.

[CLANG]

176. HIP HIP HOORAY!!!!

[AllyCat]

79. Remember, they are all against socialism until it benefits them.

Hypocrites of the highest order.

[upi402]

80. "Hypocrites of the highest order" +1,000

[TxVietVet]

125. Let's have an "amen" to that!

AMEN. 99 1/2 of conservanazis are hypoctrites.

[kenny blankenship]

82. That belongs on a T shirt design.

and bumper stickers.

[PBass]

83. I agree with the few who said that she deserved the money, since she paid in,

but that's not really the point though.

The point is that basically EVERYBODY is liable to need the social safety net at some point, even the 'scene leaders' who make their living claiming the exact opposite.

She didn't take anything that wasn't coming to her... but she validated SS' essential worth, by turning to it.

Also, Libertarianism is a joke - a completely theoretical philosophy that can be described (at best) as "fanciful". It's all speculation of course, since Libertarianism has never actually been engaged in successfully, anywhere, ever.

[GETPLANING]

84. Parasite

...

[patrice]

86. Weakling.

[patrice]

87. Scratch an absolutist, find a relativist almost every time. nt

[delightfulstar]

88. Even the ones furthest to the right wake up, eventually.

As much as she was against government control, she eventually caved when she needed it.

An interesting thing about her was that she had a really unassuming personality on one side of the coin, and on the other side, had that very infamous narcissistic quality. There was a series of interviews done with Bennett Cerf in the late 60s (in conjunction with Columbia University, his alma mater), and he had a very interesting take on her:

She's like any movie queen who will have a retinue or a prize fight champion who's followed by a bunch of hangers-on or a big crooner and his brown-nosers. They come to need this purposeful adulation.
...
She was determined she was going to save me, as she called it. She said that I was a very nice person and had a very good brain but was wasting it all by the worthless causes I believed in. She was trying to convert me to her way of thinking. She didn't have a prayer, of course, but I did like to hear her expound her cockeyed philosophy.

(You can find this in its entirety here ...http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/nny/cerfb/transcripts/cerfb_1_20_943.html)

[TuxedoKat]

113. That was really interesting

Thanks for posting that link. It would be really interesting to see her interview with Johnny Carson that Cerf mentions. He said Carson kept her on for his whole show and cancelled the other guests.

[delightfulstar]

185. Anything from before the early 70s...

Likely has been wiped. The nets had a bad habit of doing that with things like talk shows and game shows. But it would be interesting to see, if it ever turned up anywhere.

[TuxedoKat]

133. Ayn Rand wrote an essay likening JFK to Hitler

Forgot to mention that in my earlier post from reading your link! You never hear that about her, but Bennet Cerf says he refused to publish her book of essays because of that -- good for him. This was some months before he was assassinated. After that she disavowed any responsibility when Cerf asked her about it.

[nightgaunt]

206. Would Ayn Rand be welcomed into the Republican party today?

"As I say, I liked her and still do. I miss her. I thought that she was one of the most interesting authors we've ever had. Again, a lot of people who disapproved of a lot of the books that we publish worshiped Ayn Rand; and any place that I go lecturing still, somebody is sure to pop up and say, “Tell me about Ayn Rand,” with adoration in their eyes. When she went up to talk at Harvard, the place was full of students who came to hoot but stayed to applaud. They weren't convinced by her, but they were impressed by her sincerity. This is a brilliant woman. It's a shame that these sycophants have, I think, absolutely ruined her. She could have been a very fine woman of influence in the right direction. She's not doing any real damage. Outside of her fanatical cult, nobody really strings along with her theory that religion and public relief are a sop and should be abolished."

One of her problems was the psychophants who pushed her ego button so much she started to believe all the hype from them while every critic of the time trashed her mercilessly. Unlike today where there is a vast integrated machine that would promote her to high heaven. Even if they would leave out certain bothersome things like her Atheism and the fact that she thought psychopaths as being the best kind of human, her supermen. So Ayn Rand is accepted but post mortum, it would be too much trouble if she was alive.

If she didn't like Social Security then she was a hypocrite for taking it. Even Anarchists want to work together. Only misanthropes and Libertarians want to reduce society to hermits and destroy civilization.

[tinrobot]

91. SS isn't distributed by "need" and it is not welfare.

Not a fan of Ayn Rand, but the article itself equates SS to a form of welfare, which actually misrepresents the program in a way that plays into Republican talking points.

Social Security is not like welfare. Everyone takes out the same amount when they hit 65. The poor do not get bigger checks just because they are poor. It is not something that is distributed by "need" as the article implied by using the Ayn Rand quote.

[moose65]

103. Isn't it based on your income and number of years you worked?

I was under the impression that everyone does NOT get the "same" amount when they turn 65. There's a formula that determines what your monthly benefit will be.

[tinrobot]

178. It's based on how much you put into the system.

So if you put more money in, you get more out - up to a preset limit. If you or your spouse works 20+ years, then you'll probably hit that limit.

The opposite of welfare, actually.

[Enthusiast]

92. Freeloader! nt

[SHRED]

96. Why didn't her "rugged individualism"...

...and "bootstrap pulling" put her in a financial position to make good on her extreme convictions and pass up collecting SS and Medicare?

What a lazy hypocrite.

--

[Richardo]

98. That's a bumper sticker right there.

:patriot:

[Crowman1979]

102. Time for a Nelson laugh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo

[greiner3]

105. "altruism a “basic evil”

The same meme Fox talking heads and Rush tried to get across recently. Without altruism the human condition IS nothing but eat or be eaten. Altruism also drives the family condition so even that is no longer a Republican goal.

Anarchy across the board and the last American standing turn out the lights.

[Hugin]

106. Hahahaha! Beautiful! Hahaha!

:rofl:

*gasp*

Hahahahaha!

Hahahahahaha!

[Yavin4]

114. The Whole Key To Libertarianism/Objectivism Is Knowing That Something Will Bail You Out

when you need it. However, if you never need it, then you keep everything for yourself.

[Sabriel]

116. I am John Galt (SS# 299-44-001)

And I support moral kind-of-absolutism.

[Marr]

120. I finally got around to reading Atlas Shrugged last year. I can honestly say it's

the worst book I've ever read-- and I've read some bad books. The narrative is nonsensical and poorly paced in the extreme (an 87-page speech from one character?!), and the underlying "philosophy" wouldn't stand up to serious examination for 10 seconds. Little wonder she chose to share it in the fiction format rather than in usual philosophy channels.

The whole thing is built around a central strawman, which she casually lays out in chapter one, apparently really believing that she's making a real argument. In a nutshell, her reasoning goes like this:

First, accept that altruism is inherently destructive.

Therefore, altruism is inherently destructive.

It's asinine. She never actually makes her argument. There's even a passage somewhere later in the pile of garbage where she says that actions that don't directly benefit the individual performing them are self destructive. Any organism, she says, would die out immediately... then she says, 'but that's what man has been doing since his earliest development'. That obviously disproves her initial claim about self-sacrifice equating to extinction! Sentence two negated sentence one. It's just... lunacy.

[NAO]

124. My sympathies - I read it in high school and believed every word

First of all, for christ's sake, it's over a thousand pages of cramped type! How could ANYBODY read that???

But in high school I read it and believed it and couldn't wait til I was old enough to meet some "fellow objectivists".

I majored in philosophy in college, where I quickly learned she was much looked down on.

To this day - 25 years after high school - I still give her credit for teaching me that my mind is my basic tool of survival, and reason is the art of non-contradictory integration of the data of the senses...otherwise, I still be a fundamentalist Christan, which is FAR worse than an Objectivist, believe me!

I saw thru her arguments for capitalism as soon as I had a real job out of college, which is also when I changed by voter registration from "Libertarian" to "Democrat".

I heard that she was a member of a bourgeois family and the Bolsheviks made her family share some rooms of their mansion with homeless people, which make her very resentful. Possibly anecdotal, possibly true.

- NAO

"I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican party"

[femrap]

149. It is my understanding that

when she was 12 years old, her father's drug store was taken over by the state. There was no mansion. He was a small businessman. The rug was merely pulled out from under the family.

I liked the book. It was a novel. I did skip Galt's loooooooooooong speech. She must have been doing double duty of her Speed that day. She did dexamyl, I think. Explains the smoking.

[joshcryer]

141. Atlas Shrugged, a thousand words:

http://www.spudworks.com/article/66/2/

Better off just reading this.

[bleever]

145. That was good.

Thanks!

[delete_bush]

144. I know it's to late for you, but perhaps I can save another

your pain and suffering.

ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE ABRIDGED VERSION (with spoilers)

Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.

READERS
Hey, great.

HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.

LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.

HEROINE
That's nice.

LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.

HEROINE
Okay.

LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty *****.

HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.

SOMEONE
(Pontificates)

VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!

HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

VILLAIN
(Threatens hero.)

HERO
(Flips coin)
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.

VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!

HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.

AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.

DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.

DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.

READER
Wait, what?

ATLAS
(Shrugs)

THE END

[Eljo_Don]

122. definitions

If she defines the system of taxation and redistribution as “looters” and “moochers.”
How does she defines the system of taxation and bail out.

I have worked 30 + years and paid SS. SS does not come from taxation.

[NAO]

123. Ayn Rand Sucks - By Matthew Grimm and the Red Smear

Go to iTunes and get the song "Ayn Rand Sucks" by Matthew Grimm and the Red Smear. It's awesome. Some of my favorite catchy bits:

Overwrought and deified harlequin romance scribe
...
The Unseen Hand might lift all yachts
But the rest it seems to punch right in the dick
...
“Enlightened self-interest” is a goddamn oxymoron
Used by lazy-thinking douchebags to be narcissistic pricks
...
She says Ron Paul is cool, though he’d defund her hipster school
Mainlines Friedman’s fascist crap like bathtub crank
...
If rich folks’re all so keen, what’s with the meltdowns and subpoenas



Ayn Rand Sucks - Matthew Grimm and the Red Smear

She pulled herself up by her bootstraps, from the magnate schools and sandtraps of the
Gritty streets of the northshore burbs
With but her wits and her trustfund, she set herself off from the poor and dumb
Whom she would gladly kick back to the curb

See all her piercings and tattoos belie her straight conformo views as spewed by
Think tanks, Wall Street, all the rightwing thugs
She’s kinda smart but not enough, cause her facebook page lists all the stuff
she likes, foremost them Atlas Shrugged

(But) Ayn Rand sucks
She wrote really badly workmanlike and dogmatically
Ayn Rand sucks like any other high-priced whore
Ayn Rand sucks
Overwrought and deified harlequin romance scribe
She sucks so hard her jaw must still be sore

The Unseen Hand might lift all yachts
But the rest it seems to punch right in the dick
“Enlightened self-interest” is a goddamn oxymoron
Used by lazy-thinking douchebags to be narcissistic pricks

She says Ron Paul is cool, though he’d defund her hipster school
Mainlines Friedman’s fascist crap like bathtub crank
Says the cream will always rise by DNA and enterprise
But denies she’s just another Nazi skank

(But) Ayn Rand sucks
She wrote really badly workmanlike and dogmatically
Ayn Rand sucks like any other high-priced whore
Ayn Rand sucks
Overwrought and deified harlequin romance scribe
She sucks so hard her jaw must still be sore

Ayn Rand sucks
She wrote really badly, hamfistedly, dogmatically
Ayn Rand sucks beyond all circumstance and pomp
Ayn Rand sucks
If rich folks’re all so keen, what’s with the meltdowns and subpoenas
Mein Kampf by other names is still Mein Kampf

[RoccoR5955]

129. Someone should mention this to

Our Libertardian.. I mean Libertarian friends.

[janet118]

134. Ayn Rand was a selfish, sociopath. n/t

[FourScore]

137. SOCIALIST!!! What a hypocrite. n/t

[Romulox]

138. That would be like union activists driving Toyotas!

:shrug:

[Change Happens]

139. Communist mother fucker!!!

[kctim]

140. So what.

Most people who rail against free markets and 'evil corps' are or will benefit from those things.

[HughBeaumont]

147. Well, yes. It's either that or we starve to death.

Doesn't make a corporation or Ayn Rand's Fool-osophy correct and infallible either.

[kctim]

152. Doesn't make one a hypocrite either.

[Romulox]

148. "Most people" aren't touted as self-help gurus cum messiah figures.

:hi:

[kctim]

153. True

but a particular ideology does tout government as being as such.

[meow mix]

142. couldnt reach the boot straps?

wow cut the hypocrisy with a knife on this one

[tropicanarose]

143. I always thought that she was a miserable negative person. This only confirms it.

What a hypocrite.

[unblock]

151. the "virtue of selfishness" means taking advantage of whatever comes your way.

i don't know about ayn rand herself, whether she considered taking social security / medicare as a "softening" of her views.

but today's right-wing would have no problem whatsoever with taking from a social program and railing against it all at the same time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

157. K&R, for the whines of the annoyed please me. -nt

[Lucian]

159. Haha.

Oh RW hypocrisy knows no bounds. This is great.

[Turbineguy]

160. Well blow me down!

[CLANG]

161. $11000/month SS payments??? WTF?

Also she is a BIG F N hypocrite!

[HughBeaumont]

165. 11 thousand total between 1974 and 1982.

Plus Medicare for her cancer surgery.

I wonder if anyone gets 11 grand a month in SS. It'd be nice.

[CLANG]

177. Thanks for the correction. It seemed so crazy! I guess my eyes are going.

[bongbong]

162. Send this link

I sent the link to my politically-minded friends with the subject line "Ayn Rand - BUSTED" and an appropriately uber-sarcastic note.

[dugaresa]

166. First off, she should have gone to prison than compromise and pay taxes to the system she hated

in fact, why the hell did she move to the US. She should have moved to some third world country where she could live her princples. Some place with a greedy dictator and no taxation that could be adequately enforced.

So her first betrayal was paying into the system.

She then compromised again when she started drawing off of the system she paid into.

[valerief]

175. K&R

:kick:

[sulphurdunn]

180. The real evil of socialism

is its insistence on taking care of everyone whether they "deserve" it or not. How could we possibility have a society without moral judgments and pious punishments?

[Barack_America]

186. If only this had come out before the health care vote. nt

[bjobotts]

194. A neurotic, selfish Russian refugee ends up in complete hypocrisy when it got personal

[thanks_imjustlurking]

195. PRICELESS!

I knew she was a hypocrite, but this is the cherry on the sundae! :rofl:

[lame54]

216. I'm with you...

:rofl:

[Rex]

196. Well of course she did. Pukes always do what they judge in others

to be 'substandard behavior'. It is inevitable for republicans to perform acts they deem abnormal or deviant. I'd LOVE to see them called to the mat over their obvious conflict of interest as it spews from their mouths or is performed by their actions.

Repuke lurkers...go ahead and tell us WHY Ayn was justified in getting what she hated the most in other people. You know you want to.

[sarcasmo]

198. Definition of Hypocrite.

[nessa]

199. This won't bother anyone on the right..

I've seen their argument to stuff like this. They just use they old 'they do it too' and talk about wealthy liberals not voluntarily paying higher taxes or about Gore's big carbon footprint.

[lefty2000]

205. So What?

If she was entitled to SS, she was entitled to file and collect. You don't have to agree with a law to obey it. Everyone dreams of a better world, but we all live in this one. She was born in Tsarist Russia and grew up under communist oppression. She was a product of her time, as we are of ours.

Let her rest in peace.

[ClassWarrior]

212. So you're claiming there's a Social Security mandate?

:rofl:

"You don't have to agree with a law to obey it." Since when was there a law that you HAVE TO collect SS?

Face it, she sold out her empty morals and bogus superiority.

NGU.

[Statistical]

215. No she recouped some of the money that was taken from her.

There is nothing unethical or hypocritical about recouping money from a system you disagree with.

She wanted SS abolished. If it had been and she ended up on welfare now that would be hypocritical.
She had no methods to avoid SS taxation thus she collected a return on money she was forced to contribute.

[Hannah Bell]

220. She recouped plenty more than she paid in, since she didn't start paying until she was 30,

& relatively little of her income over 30 came from WAGES.

She wrote books (non-wage income) & gave lectures (non-wage income) and collected film rights for her lousy books (non-wage income).

She paid in diddley.

She was a hypocritical leech on society.

[fascisthunter]

222. she took advantage of something she railed against

this really isn't that hard to figure out.

[Crunchy Frog]

210. Narcissistic sociopaths always believe in their own exceptionalism.

[GSLevel9]

217. OP made me think that Rand collected Nazi helmets and badges, lol... nt

[lame54]

228. That hasn't been ruled out

[fascisthunter]

223. Didn't She Also Idolize a Serial Killer?

she was definitely a sociopath at the least.