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Something is really fishy about the LA teacher's case involving seniority and layoffs

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 08:22 PM
Original message
Something is really fishy about the LA teacher's case involving seniority and layoffs
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/los-angeles-teacher-layoffs-seniority_n_812464.html?ir=Los+Angeles

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of students at three troubled middle schools in south and central Los Angeles, which have traditionally had high turnover of teachers and administrators.

Because of that turnover, a large portion of their staffs are recent graduates who expressed a desire to work in urban schools. However, layoffs over the past two years meant that the untenured teachers were the first to receive pink slips.

More than half of the teaching staffs at Edwin Markham, John H. Liechty and Samuel Gompers middle schools lost their jobs. At Liechty, 72 percent of the teachers received layoff notices; at Markham, the layoffs included almost the entire English department along with every 8th grade history teacher.

Students were taught by a revolving-door succession of substitutes who served as little more than babysitters, the lawsuit said. One substitute gave each student a C because she simply didn't know what grade to give them, the suit said.

In contrast, schools in more affluent areas of the district, where staffing is traditionally much more stable, lost far fewer teachers.

end of quote

OK here is the problem. In any district there are a certain number of teacher positions that the district decides to hire (based on enrollment, funds, and the priorities of the district and or state). Once that total number is set, the teachers are distributed to schools based on the enrollment at the school. If a school has 1% of the students in a district it gets 1% of the teacher positions. If it has 10% of the students it gets 10% of the teacher positions. Then the school goes out and hires teachers to fill those positions. They do so by the usual means, interviewing candidates and offering positions. In times where teachers have lots of options districts may have to go to great lengths to find teachers in times like these often not so much. But once that is done, you have your staff and away you go.

Apparently for years the turnover in these three South Central schools was very high leading those schools to having people with very low seniority when the layoffs came. So those schools had the most people laid off. But they didn't lose, or at least shouldn't have lost, such a disproportionate number of teaching positions. Say the total number of teacher positions in LA dropped by 10% without any real change in enrollment, then a school which had 10% of the teacher positions before the layoffs would have 10% of the teacher positions after the layoffs regardless of how senior its staff was prior to the layoffs. Even if every last teacher in that school were to have been laid off they still should have been able to hire displaced teachers from other schools (ones where no one got laid off but they lost teacher positions). Given how bad it is for teachers in CA I can't see that huge numbers of LA teachers chose to quit instead of taking jobs on those schools and even if they did, then the lower seniority teachers would have been hired back. In no case should these schools have been filling those positions with subs.

So what likely happened. LA played games with the teacher position numbers and screwed those schools. Seniority had nothing at all to do with it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd want to look at their contract
It's hard to comment ... not knowing what was in the contract.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I have literally never heard of a district not being able to
make a teacher move if the school didn't have a position for that teacher. They wouldn't be able to close schools if that were the case and no district would bargain that way.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I've never heard of it either
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. They did make teachers move--and these dedicated professionals quit---
Edited on Sun Jan-23-11 05:22 PM by msanthrope
http://www.aclu-sc.org/documents/view/229

Paragraphs 46, 47, 48, and 49 of the complaint detail how many teachers--even those who had more experience, more seniority, simply quit rather than work in places like Watts.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. bullshit. villagaroisa himself fired all the staff at the schools in question when he took them
over in 2008.

then he hired first-year teachers or non-teachers to replace them.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You've got the wrong time period. Read the Complaint--it's about 2009-2010.
Villagaroisa was a UTLA organzier, wasn't he?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. yes, he was. and? he's not the first "organizer" to work against labor.
Edited on Sun Jan-23-11 05:43 PM by Hannah Bell
i don't have any time period wrong. the mayor fired the entire teaching staff of those schools when he & the deformer "partnership for LA" took control of them in 2008.

and that's the number one reason their faculties are composed of teachers with only 1-2 years experience, plus "teachers" who aren't even qualified to teach.

they hired them specifically for that "qualification".

this suit reeks of the ed deform stench.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. I'll trust the opinion of the ACLU over yours...nt
Sid
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. you'll trust any opinion that favors deform over mine. big news, stop the presses.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. ok then the district shouldn't have had to lay off as many teachers
in the inner city schools. Let me use a simple example. Say you have a district with two schools each of which has 50 teachers. The district decides to lay off 10 teachers. Say that all the teachers in school A have enough seniority that all 10 layoff have to come from school B. If there has been no enrollment change, then each school should have 45 teaching positions meaning that the 5 teachers in school A with the least seniority would be forced to move to school B or else would have to quit. If they move then school B would have 45 teachers (40 who weren't laid off plus the five who move). If they quit, then school B would have 45 teachers since only five of theirs would be laid off (the other five who quit would give the district the 10 fewer positions they need). I could see, given how big the LA district is that maybe the schools would have a sub for a day or two but even that seems hard to see given the workdays at the beginning of a school year and the deadline that the teachers who were ordered to move would have been given.

Now as to your other point. I can see plenty of reasons that teachers would quit as opposed to transfer. First and foremost in LA would be commute. Teaching, done well, is a very hard job. Add in a 90 minute commute and I can see saying no.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. There are a couple of fishy things about it. I read a bit about what was going on when the lawsuit
was filed, I will try to find that & the follow-up.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. parking
Edited on Sun Jan-23-11 02:00 AM by Hannah Bell
Gompers Middle School under the Leadership of the Mayor and the Partnership have only improved the physical appearances of the plant. PLAS is a group of educators predominantly from the San Diego and Inland Empire hired by Mayor Villaraigosa and Ramon Cortines. Under the PLAS young teachers were hired and the Principal Sonia Miller has no say so in running Gompers Middle School. All the decisions come from Dr. K. Mitchell, an outsider of the LAUSD. Dr. Mitchell and other administrators are making an exorbitant salary and the quality of education for the students comes last. The Partnership for Los Angeles School is a farce and all the people involved are raking up large salaries in their payroll, but the quality of education for the students is less desirable.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oaHgPjCyGnIJ:projects.latimes.com/schools/school/los-angeles/samuel-gompers-middle/+%22gompers+middle+school%22+%22los+angeles%22&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Gompers is one of 12 schools that Mayor Villaraigosa has assumed control of as part of his Partnership for Los Angeles Schools. This partnership is focused on turning-around low-performing schools. Gompers has made improvements to their school culture, improved student attendance, and made the school a safer place to be. The staff has worked hard to build school operational systems, offer more professional development and teacher collaborative structures, and it has begun to regain the trust of the students, parents, and staff through the development of shared decision-making processes. Improving instructional practice and raising student performance is now the focus of the school.

Over the past 15 months, the Partnership has successfully implemented several operational improvements at Gompers, including: 1) Dramatic facilities investments through an investment of $900,000 in the few weeks before school to repair basis needs, including bathroom renovations, exterior painting, floor repair, new lighting, and new windows. Gompers has also benefitted from the completion of $2.5 million in capital projects, with another $1.2 million underway, since the Partnership began working with the school, for projects such as classroom repair, asphalt paving, and fire alarm repair; 2) Recruiting and retaining talent through a partnership that hired “The New Teacher Project” in the first year to help recruit outstanding teachers; 3) A per pupil funding implementation took place a new per pupil funding model that is designed to more equitably distribute district resources and allow schools to have greater flexibility in how they make spending decisions; 4) Implementation of the MyData Dashboard, a web-based program that provides real-time student data to teachers; and 5) access to instructional technology through a donation from Direct TV, which donated a TV and educational programming for the model Parent Center, and a Time Warner donation of approximately $15,000 in computers and e-learning subscriptions.

http://www.ed.gov/blog/2010/01/23-students-from-an-aspiring-la-%E2%80%9Cturnaround-school%E2%80%9D-write-to-secretary-duncan-and-receive-a-reply/
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. So, if it wasn't about seniority, they sure were able to use it anyway.
It's all about money. It always is when it comes to school administrations.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-22-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I think this case is about firing teachers
And money.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's a good analysis of the situation
at those particular schools.

My friend teaches at a grammar school in LA Unified, but it's in Brentwood and doesn't have that high of a turnover rate. The only non-tenured teacher at the school was told that they were letting her go, only to have gotten a last minute reprieve the year before. This past summer, she was worried that would happen again, and she got a lower paying job at a private school that offered her more job security. I think a lot of younger teachers in the LA district are doing that for some stability now. But it only adds to the higher turnover rate in those less attractive inner city schools.

With all their furlough days and such, the LA schools are a bit of a mess right now. I hope that they can fix them.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. It would not surprise me if LA schools were doing something shifty with money.
Edited on Sun Jan-23-11 08:42 AM by woo me with science
with their recent history of opening 578 million dollar schools while cutting basic programs and bus service from needy families:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38807154/ns/us_news-life/

LA unveils $578M school, costliest in the nation

By CHRISTINA HOAG (AP)

LOS ANGELES — Next month's opening of the Robert F. Kennedy Community Schools will be auspicious ....With an eye-popping price tag of $578 million, it will mark the inauguration of the nation's most expensive public school ever.

The K-12 complex to house 4,200 students has raised eyebrows across the country as the creme de la creme of "Taj Mahal" schools, $100 million-plus campuses boasting both architectural panache and deluxe amenities.

.....

Not everyone is similarly enthusiastic.

"New buildings are nice, but when they're run by the same people who've given us a 50 percent dropout rate, they're a big waste of taxpayer money," said Ben Austin, executive director of Parent Revolution who sits on the California Board of Education. "Parents aren't fooled."

At RFK, the features include fine art murals and a marble memorial depicting the complex's namesake, a manicured public park, a state-of-the-art swimming pool and preservation of pieces of the original hotel.

.....
The RFK complex follows on the heels of two other LA schools among the nation's costliest — the $377 million Edward R. Roybal Learning Center, which opened in 2008, and the $232 million Visual and Performing Arts High School that debuted in 2009.


The pricey schools have come during a sensitive period for the nation's second-largest school system: Nearly 3,000 teachers have been laid off over the past two years, the academic year and programs have been slashed. The district also faces a $640 million shortfall and some schools persistently rank among the nation's lowest performing.
.....

(more at link)


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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. kick
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. I still don't understand how seniority has anything to do with it.
Teachers can and are moved to wherever their is a need. If the inner city schools were the ones with a need, teachers would have been transferred there, seniority or not. After Prop 13 passed and a ton of teachers got cut, my mom was transferred to a school in South Central, 40 miles from our home. She had no say in the matter, despite tenure, seniority, or whatever.

Has there ever been a definitive explanation of how the seniority/tenure of veteran teachers is responsible for denying the civil rights of the students in these high-turnover schools?
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Read the complaint--teachers who were moved, quit--
Edited on Sun Jan-23-11 05:27 PM by msanthrope
http://www.aclu-sc.org/documents/view/229

Paragraphs 46-49.


and as for your latter question, I suggest you read the judge's memo and the settlement agreement itself---it's a fairly clear explanation of how contract rights are precluded when it comes to equal protection.


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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. lol. 4 teachers quit. you think none of villagairosa's 1-year hires quit?
dream on.

not to mention that he fired the entire teaching staff in the same schools in 2008.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. then no one at those schools should have been laid off
To simplify this say we have two schools (A and B) and each has 50 teachers for a total of 100. Now say the district has to lay off 10 teachers. Say that everyone in school A has enough seniority that all the teachers who are laid off come from school B. Assuming there has been no change in enrollment between the schools. then each school would have 45 positions to be filled by the 90 teachers that are left. Then the 5 teachers in school A who had the least amount of seniority would be forced to transfer to school B or else they would have to quit. If they go, then school B has 45 teachers (the 40 who weren't laid off plus the five they got from school A). If the teachers refuse, ie quit, then instead of having ten teachers laid off they would have five teachers laid off and still have 45 teachers. In neither case should they be having to hire subs.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I get what you are saying. But it doesn't square with what happened.
And regardless of what 'should have' happened, the point the lawsuit makes is that the unequal distribution DID happen, with the kids bearing the burden.

The Defendants in this case concede the mess.

Now, had the union shown up to the settlement talks, (they had refused) they might have been able to make your point.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. bullshit
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Yes, I read it, and I still don't understand why seniority is being blamed.
From the description, it sounds as if the LAUSD bureaucracy is to blame for not matching teachers with the proper credentialing to the corresponding open positions. In a district that size, there is no doubt that such teachers were available; it's just a matter of evaluating current teaching assignments and transferring accordingly. Any teachers who didn't like their placement and quit would be quitting the district entirely. Teachers don't have a say where they're placed within a district when RIF tranfers take place. So why is seniority being blamed?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. you know why
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Well, yes, I know the political reasons—to destroy the union, but...
I can't fathom what the legal argument is behind claiming that teacher seniority/tenure is responsible for what happened at these schools. From looking at the legal documents, it sounds to me like the usual back-assedness that is LAUSD in action. My folks taught there for 30+ years, and I got my start in the district as a bilingual aide for ESL and Sheltered Language classes. Their organizational skills were a clusterf*ck back then, and it sounds as if that hasn't changed. Except for the current political climate which now enables them to blame it on the teachers, of course.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. they can blame it on tenure because villagairosa fired all the teachers at the schools
in question in 2008.

then he hired a bunch of teachers with about a year or less of experience (some not even qualified by california standards).

so when those folks got riffed (by his admin, again) in 2009, he could claim the "stability" of those schools (which he has mayoral control over, btw) was threatened & that was a civil rights issue.

this case is a farce. seriously, imo the deformers planned & funded it from day 1.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here's the problem with your calculations--you didn't read the Complaint, which
details how the RIF was conducted. I suggest you read just how it was conducted, and how replacements were taken from this District hire list---page 13-14.

http://www.aclu-sc.org/documents/view/229
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. thanks for the link
I read the pages and some others. Frankly I still fail to see why seniority is being blamed here. If, as a principal, you can't keep a teacher in a school for more than two weeks, then you need to look in a mirror to see what is wrong. I will say that one problem is that we have historically let just about any teacher teach in middle school. In most states you get a k - 8 license or a 7 - 12 license and can teach a year up or down. So pretty much any certified teacher can teach any subject in a middle school. When layoffs come that is a recipe for problems. Some states, such as Ohio, have switched to a k - 4, 5- 8, 9- 12 system. That seems like a much better idea. That would solve one of the problems sited. The rest seem to be the fault of either the building administrators or the district administrators. In this economy, it defies sense, that it would take months to fill a teaching position when you have a RIF list. That speaks to total chaos in central office which isn't the fault of seniority or the teacher's union.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. villagairosa fired all the teachers at the schools in question in 2008.
seems he didn't much care about "stable" schools then.

same way ed deformers give a damn about "stability" in poor or minority schools, as they've systematically decimated their (predominantly minority) teaching staffs with their various "reforms".

this is a trumped-up lawsuit paid for by ed deformers.

ed deform hypocrisy: they cheered when all the teachers at central falls were fired. now it's a "civil rights" issue.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's a lot fishy.
In 2008 Markham was a turnaround school and the entire staff was fired to made to reapply. http://www.quickanded.com/2010/04/the-sad-tale-of-markham-middle.html


Markham Middle has already implemented the school turnaround model, and because of the timing of implementation and the district’s hiring practices, the reform is not going very well. On May 27, 2008, L.A. Unified transferred management responsibility for 11 schools including Markham to the Partnership for Los Angeles Schools, an organization created by Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa to take over and turn around a cluster of the district’s lowest-performing schools. (The Partnership resulted after the mayor’s failed attempt to take control of the entire district.) The Partnership had about three months to take over management of these schools (effectively a medium-sized school district serving 18,000) and start running them. The Partnership made a fresh start, letting all of the existing staff go and then rehiring school staff at the 11 campuses. For the first time in Markham’s decade-plus of school reform, there was a dramatic change in the people on the campus.

But the Partnership got a late start in the hiring process, a major disadvantage in hiring quality applicants for many urban school districts and for L.A. Unified in particular. At Markham, almost half of the new hires were first- and second-year teachers, and many of them were under-qualified.

Then California’s budget woes made things worse. By March of the first year of operation, these first- and second-year teachers, the principal, and others at the school had been given pink slips along with almost 9,000 employees in the L.A. Unified School District due to lack of funds. In its deal with the school district, the Partnership had to agree that the teachers at these schools would be district employees and subject to the district’s collective bargaining agreement and teacher policies. Thus, teachers at Markham were subject to the district’s seniority policies when it came time for layoffs. Since the teachers at Markham were mostly new, they were the first ones the district would let go. Almost half of the layoffs were rescinded by the time L.A. Unified adopted a final budget in the summer of 2009, but for Markham, these cuts resulted in almost half of the school’s teaching staff being let go.



There the narrative takes a turn. When hiring needs to start again, suddenly all of the mean teachers who have seniority won't come to Markham because it is dangerous and force it through its union laws to stay staffed with subs. But is that what really happened here? Presumably, Markham was fully staffed with long-term experienced teachers before the turnaround process fired them all and replaced them with newer teachers with less seniority. There are more holes in the official story than a lace curtain.
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msanthrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. No--you illustrate the point the ACLU made, very well...
http://www.aclu-sc.org/documents/view/229

In the complaint, the ACLU makes the point that at schools like Markham, where you had teachers who WANTED to be there, post-turnaround, the RIF subjected the students to removal of those teachers who had demonstrated a willingness to be there--see paragraphs 73-75.

What the ACLU wanted was this--if the district-wide layoff rate was 6%, then places like Markham shouldn't suffer disproportionately. That's the settlement they got...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. presumably the teachers the mayor fired in 2008 "wanted" to be there too.
but keep spinning, it's so entertaining to see you change position depending on whether the ed deformers support the firings or not.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Exactly.
There is no mention of what happened to all the teachers fired in the 2008 "turnaround", but you can bet they were senior teachers. And actually, senior teachers were against the cuts of the new teachers, so it's not like there was bad blood there. Jose Lara and other UTLA teachers staged a hunger strike to protest the RIFing of new-hires. http://labornotes.org/node/2328 Those evil unions. :sarcasm:

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. +again -- you're not going to convince people
That the ACLU were horn swaddled and this had
Nothing to do with 'civil rights'.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Thanks xchrom.
ACLU has been puzzling me lately. I still don't understand the position they took on Citizen's United either. This newest thing doesn't inspire my confidence, although I respect the very fine work that they do. They did not do due diligence on this case.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. They are 'promiscuous' - they have lawyers and take cases
That aren't classic 'aclu' cases anymore.

Now THAT history will be interesting to follow.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. you might look into villagairosa's past presidency of the southern california aclu.
and his board membership there.

could have something to do with it.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. +1 - I want to mark this. Nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-23-11 05:45 PM
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23. +100
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