Nazi references are useless as public rhetoric.

[jpgray]

It's really that simple. That which is Nazi is not seen by the general public in any isolated, specific context. All such things are overwhelmed by the holocaust, and in public discourse nothing Nazi will be viewed in any context separate from genocide. Want to talk about the Reichstag fire as skillful political manipulation of a disaster? You can! It may be useful in understanding a comparable event, in identifying significant similarities and differences, etc. As public rhetoric it does none of these things. Unless the analogous actor engaged in mass genocide, people will just see your analogy as an attempt to smear some person or group as akin to history's greatest monsters. Not in part, but in sum.

Is that really fair? Nope! Is it the worst thing ever to lose a potentially insightful Nazi reference? I don't think so. Often historical analogies fail to appreciate epochal differences in the compared persons and events, and the most popular history in the grab-bag tends to be mawkishly trivialized through overuse. Niemoeller doesn't need to be rewritten for every instance of oppression, and we don't need to add "-gate" to every political scandal, but this happens all the fucking time. In the end, any power the original event had is exhausted through overexposure, as inevitably very little "-gate" is added to or Niemoeller is trotted out for is as significant as the events referenced. The temptation to use the weightiest means to address an event is very strong, but often history's mountains are set to labor in order to skewer a ridiculous contemporary mouse.

It's not fair and sometimes harmful that Nazi analogies can't really be used as rhetoric, but it has the one upside of discouraging endless inappropriate Nazi comparisons (from prominent people, anyway), and so limits the trivialization of the actual events through exhaustive, ill-considered use in analogy and argument.

[Initech]

1. There's a reason that Nazi references have become their own logical fallacy.

I refer you to "Ad Hitlerum":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hitlerum

[hlthe2b]

2. When we see rhetorical and other strategies being used...

that were used or even developed by Nazis like Goebbels and others, are we to ignore it? I appreciate and agree with your points, but, per my sigline, this concerns me....

[hobbit709]

3. As I say

"If it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, has feathers like a duck and swims; it's either a duck or a closely related waterfowl."

[mix]

4. Where is the evidence of this connection?

Are the objectives and propaganda of our neoliberal state and corporation-dominated society really like Nazi Germany? Not at all.

Why do those you cry "Nazism" always look outside of American history for answers instead of inwardly at our own crimes?

[hlthe2b]

5. You must surely have slept through the past Bush* decade...

If you have to ask this, then I doubt anything I would show you would convince you.

[mix]

7. another argument with no evidence or logic

Prove your claim that what transpired is "Nazism" and not American capitalism and imperialism during those years.

[jpgray]

14. How did Twain understand that what we did in the Phillippines was evil? No Nazis yet!

:o Truly Sam was a sagacious fellow.

[mix]

17. "Nazism" has become more of slur and the standard of ultimate political evil

than an understood historical phenomenon. Its use also belies an ignorance of American history.

An analogy (propaganda out of Goebbel's playbook) or a homey saying (talking, walking ducks) might be a good place to start this argument, but proponents seldom can go further because the evidence just is not there.

It's empty rhetoric.

[hlthe2b]

16. Since you've boviously not read any history of the era

my points would fall on uncomprehending eyes, apparently. Try doing just a simple google on Joseph Goebbels. If you honestly believe there are no similar patterns, you won't be afraid to do so. (or will you?)

[mix]

18. I don't need google for my historical knowledge.

My library serves that purpose.

[hlthe2b]

20. Glad to hear it... Some are no longer willing to actually read

authoritative books any more. I decry that trend.

BTW, I am not advocating for the ridiculous use of Hitler epiteths. But, I do believe in looking at patterns of behavior and manipulation tactics that have repeated itself over time.

[jpgray]

6. We can do anything we like. But public denunciations of people as Nazi-like are ineffective

Barring some extreme circumstances, anyway. There's a wide array of options between ignoring something evil and publicly comparing it to Nazis.

[bobthedrummer]

8. Not to those of US that understand that "never again" isn't a slogan-nor to US that read "It Can't

Happen Here", nor to US that now are clearly seeing the blowback from giving real NAZIS identities and jobs as "Americans" fighting "enemies" in "national security".

We've become a corporate fascist dominated nation, of course it isn't totalitarian but the references from history will continue from many more of US that see clearly.

Never Again.

[jpgray]

12. Right, which is why ineffective rhetoric should be avoided

Things that are like Nazis are bad. Publicly comparing such things to Nazis almost never has the desired effect. Both of these things can be true, yes?

[bobthedrummer]

22. No, but I'm a guy that understands the malpractice of Frankl's paradoxical intention

if you know what I'm saying here jpgray.

It's another fact of history that deeply symbolic rituals were "massmarketed" by the pagan dominated inner Nazi Party circle, yet some DUers have objections to that fact being mentioned at all.

Never again, my friend.

[hedgehog]

9. I agree that we need to drop all the comparisons to Nazi Germany , BUT

it's also time that any one who attempts to negotiate or compromise be compared to Neville Chamberlain!

[jpgray]

13. Another popular trope of the history grab-bag

:D

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

10. Someone is cashing in on it, and MSNBC is complicit.

I don't watch CNN or Fox, but MSNBC has sold a lot of time to the Nazi industry. I can only imagine what it's like on other networks.

:thumbdown:

[lunatica]

11. Most people don't even know about the Holocaust

It's that simple.

I first heard about it from my parents which then caused me to look for information about it. I never once heard about it in school and I went to private schools.

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Right on. Personally, from here on out I'm gonna avoid Hitler references

in favor of Papa Doc.

[Shagbark Hickory]

19. They sure are an easy way to get a quick 15 mins of fame without murdering anyone.

[jwirr]

21. That should not be a surprise to a nation that teaches only the victory

speeches from WWII and nothing about the actual happenings that led to it. Then add that most people today have never had a history class beyond high school and there is no surprise.

[bemildred]

23. Well, it depends on what you want to do.

It is true they do little to forward reasoned discussion, or arrival at a consensus view of things.

But they can serve well to piss people off, offend then, and polarize debate.