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Why some of us have complicated feelings about Joe Paterno

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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:09 AM
Original message
Why some of us have complicated feelings about Joe Paterno
From the time my dad was growing up in poverty in rural Pennsylvania, the son of an alcoholic and one of eight children, he has idolized Joe Paterno. By extension, I've had a mountain of respect for Paterno, too. Joe's decades-long advocacy of hard work and higher learning may be partially responsible for inspiring my dad to build a solid middle-class lifestyle for his kids. I now have a PhD and I work in academia, and I'm convinced that major college football, on the whole, is bad for major colleges. But Paterno was -- as far as we knew until this week -- an exception to the trends.

None of the accomplishments described below excuse Paterno's moral failure to do more about Jerry Sandusky, and none of the accomplishments described below justify the destruction of property in State College last night. But learning more about Joe Paterno may help thoughtful people to grasp why some of us have complex emotions about his firing, even if we agree it's the right course of action. His public life has transcended the game of football, and it's very hard for his fans to come to grips with his shocking moral lapse.

Finally, while Paterno is a Republican, note that much of what he's known for -- funding a library, getting kids to graduate, advocating for minority athletes -- are things any liberal would admire.


...distance and perspective will eventually create a more nuanced legacy. The record will show that Paterno won more games than any other coach and that his teams annually graduated more players than any other public school. Video clips and photos will forever immortalize his black shoes and spectacles. The library on Penn State's campus, for which he helped raise $13 million, will still stand, and a university to which he devoted not only his entire adult life but $4 million of his own money will continue to educate generations of students.

And five decades of former players who went on to achieve their dreams will be here to remind us of how Paterno affected their lives. On Tuesday, Adam Taliaferro -- the former Penn State cornerback who was paralyzed by a hit in 2000 and at whose bedside Paterno held vigil when Taliaferro was told he may never walk again -- was elected to public office in Gloucester, N.J. There are thousands of other men currently excelling in their chosen fields who would be quick to share how their experience under Paterno helped them get there.

Paterno won 409 games and two national championships, but he also helped transform a rural college in a remote Pennsylvania town into a nationally respected institution. It may sound disingenuous now in light of current events, but "The Grand Experiment" -- Paterno's self-professed vision upon his 1966 hiring to prove that a program could excel both on and off the field -- served as a model for coaches of all levels of every sport for decades thereafter.

He used his platform to raise awareness for the plight of black athletes in the 1960s and '70s; he was a constant advocate of NCAA reform; he spent 40 years pushing (unsuccessfully) for a college football playoff; his early '90s push for Penn State to join the Big Ten -- a seemingly bizarre move at the time -- proved to be visionary; and he was the impetus for the Big Ten (and in turn the rest of college football) implementing instant replay.

In 1986, Sports Illustrated named Paterno its Sportsman of the Year. Rick Reilly's accompanying article included the following anecdote: While recruiting sought-after defensive tackle Bob White, Paterno put a condition on his scholarship offer: White would agree to read a dozen novels over the spring and summer before his enrollment and file a two-page book report every week.


more here
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is going to go good
:rofl:

I didn't know who any of these dipshits were until the story came out...

Football doesn't count until you are in the NFL :)
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I am not a football fan, but I am from PA, and grew up knowing who this man was--
he was idolized. Maybe a little ridiculous, especially to people who aren't from PA, but that's the level of regard people had for him.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
53. I really hate it when people explaining what they DO feel
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 11:42 AM by Karenina
are attacked by those saying how they SHOULD feel. I feel like Bill gave a heartfelt insight into the water in that fishbowl. An explanation is not an excuse, nor was it presented as such. This incident is giving us all an insight into culture. As I've reiterated in my own pet issues, STFU and listen.

I have listened to Irish men describe in detail a culture in which, after reporting abuse by clerics, they were beaten to within an inch of their lives. BY THEIR PARENTS.

Please can we refrain from disparaging the messenger? He is providing valuable information about a mentality. There are many similarities to that archetypical institution, the Catholic Church.

The structures, profiles and organization of the "protection racket" are the big pictures we need too see clearly in more ways than 17.

Here's a great thread describing that water quality.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2276764#2277633
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
65. +1
I am a longtime fan of Bill, he deserves better.

Thank you.
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HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, I've got feelings about it too - I wish they'd get that shit off the front page and put it
in the Sports section where it belongs.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. +1
Who gives a rat's buttocks about a college football coach losing his job? Not me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. he knew kids were being fucked and he allowed the man to continue to be with kids
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 10:20 AM by seabeyond
are you for real?
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. +1000. Unbelievable.
nt
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. I just have to question why people care so much about a football coach
The man had a long career. He no longer has a job. What else is new.

It's football. And I'm not impressed that his teams graduated more players than any other school. Our national obsession with sports bewilders me. I appreciate your personal story, but my guess is that you are the kind of person who would have found a way to excel despite Joe Paterno.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. "Our national obsession with sports bewilders me." Yeah, it bewildered the unathletic Greeks 2000
years ago, too.

How's this:

Human beings are, for the most part, interested in the limitations of the human body and thus in those who exceed the average person's abilities.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. i was a highly competitive athlete. my whole family is into athletics. it is awesome
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 10:43 AM by seabeyond
i also dont sell out little boys or women abused because athletics are awesome.

it is not a tough balancing act, .... for me.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. +1
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. Then why don't you care so much about classical ballet or other forms of dance?
Or gymnasts or yoga experts? Or for that matter, Greek sculpture?

Sorry, but football players are hardly paragons of the miraculous capabilities of the human body. They are pretty much examples of its ability to exert brute force, and competitive team sports is really more appealing for its simulation of the two sides in war than the Greek ideal of the human body as expressed in its athleticism and its art.

I appreciate athletes, and I like basketball and baseball. But I don't think it's a big whoop who wins what or what coach gets fired. It's an amusement. But with all the serious stuff going on in the nation and the world, I find it offensive that so many are so obsessed with this story.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #31
49. Whom do you think you're speaking to? FTR: I attended every PSU gymanastic meet in my 4 years there.
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 11:26 AM by WinkyDink
I saw the great Dick Swettman and Olympian Marshall Avener.

I'm a HUGE track-and-field fan, going back to the days of Peter Snell.

I go back to the days of Donna De Varona and the Santa Clara Swim club. Mark Spitz was my pin-up.

I watched "Friday Night Fights" as a kid.

Never missed an Olympics on TV.

I don't happen to like ballet, but I sure did appreciate Baryshnikov. I love to watch people dance other styles, however, from "Bandstand" to ballroom.

Don't EVEN begin on sculpture with me. I've appreciated Greek and other sculpture since I got the Encyclopedia Britannica in sixth grade. I have traveled to Greece and Italy to observe first-hand. I touched Rodin's "The Thinker" as a child atht eMetropolitan Museum of NY. I saw Michelangelo's "Pieta" in 1964, at the NY World's Fair; I was 14.

BUT IF YOU DON'T THINK THE COVER-UP OF CHILD-RAPE IN A MAJOR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION WITH A LEGENDARY COACH IS A BIG STORY, GO WATCH YOUR BALLET, OKAY?

Just don't EVER think to presume you know ONE IOTA about the rest of us here. Because you'll make a bigger fool of yourself than you just did with me.
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frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. I do think it's a story
I don't think people lamenting his firing and trying to say his coaching career had more pluses than minuses--the topic of this thread--should take up so much room on a progressive board.

He was fired, as he should have been. End of story, suck it up. Horrible things are happening around the world. THe guy was appropriately fired and it's over now.

And jesus, you're hostile.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
62. I literally could not care less about football
But I am finding myself to be really interested in this story.

To me, it's not dissimilar to the OWS movement--people with power were blithely, heartlessly, amorally destroying innocent, defenseless people's lives because they had the power, they could get away with it, and to do otherwise would impact their own comfortable lives, which they were enjoying very much, and tough luck for anybody who might be suffering as a result.

It's the incredible hubris of almost everybody involved that fascinates me. I couldn't care less that it involves a football program--except I guess the fact that it's about sports means that it will draw the attention of a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise tune in.
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
6. i think you are overcomplicating child rape.
whatever Paterno was, he was also a PEDOPHILE ENABLER.

not so complicated.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. ^^^This. And no one should have any problem "coming to grips"
with that. I grew up in a Big 10 household. It is time that people stop placing other people on pedestals.
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. anybody that needs even a second to come to grips needs to take a long hard look at their own
fucking morality.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. it is truly amazing isnt it. i have bottom lined it to simple. cant get
any easier than he allowed a man who was fucking kids to continue to be around children.

not tough.

ONE adult

i want to hear ONE defender on du say, they too would allow a man they know fucking children to continue being around children. one.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
10. OK that explains it...
I didn't know Paterno was/is a Republican. That sort of explains the extreme vitriol being thrown around here against him.



Anyway, I too have mixed feelings, but not because of Paterno himself, or what political party he belongs to.


Part of me believes he really should have gone above and beyond what he was obligated to do (reporting to school authorities) and reported to the police.

The other part gives him credit for reporting it to school authorities who had the LEGAL obligation to report it to police. By not doing so, THEY are the ones who committed a crime (this is from the Grand Jury presentment papers I read through a link in another topic here at DU).


So it's not that he did nothing...he just didn't do enough, likely believing that the people he did tell would do the right thing. They didn't. He reported to them, then went on with whatever it is he was doing.

The person I'm most disgusted by is the guy who said he actually SAW some of that stuff (the kid being sodomized in the shower) and didn't take a baseball bat to that pig Sandusky, right then and there.

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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. people aren't throwing vitriol because he's a Republican - it's because he a
CHILD RAPE ENABLER.




do you have kids?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. NO. allowing a man who fucks kids to continue to e around kids is the PROBLEM.
who the fuck cares what party he is from. he ALLOWED KIDS to continue to be at risk. seriously? what dont you people understand.

what part of KNOWING kids are endangered adn allowing it to continue is confusing.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. It goes beyond that, actually...
People are acting like Paterno himself did the molesting.

Had he NOT reported to anyone, then I could see where he would be complicit in it.

He didn't molest anyone.

He DID report to SOMEONE.


He committed no crimes, and nobody knows exactly what he knew or didn't know. That will likely come out in a trial.

As a Democrat, he would probably be getting a bit more leeway.

But, like I pointed out below, I've been around long enough to see the double standards that exist depending on whether one is a Republican or Democrat.

Now I'm supposed to believe that political leanings have absolutely NOTHING to do with it?



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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. 1998 he KNEW the man was naked in shower with kid hugging him. at that point, right there
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 11:07 AM by seabeyond
even not prosecuted, any REASONABLE boss, man of power and authority either fires his ass, ensures no kids are around him and NO NAKED IN THE SHOWER EVER AGAIN WITH A KID FOR ANY REASON!!!!! and keep a close eye on the man.

at the very least.

2002 he gets a report once again int he shower with a kid. NEVER NEVER NEVER again allow this man aroud a child

that is the very least that ANY adult should do with a child. you know this man is fucking kids. you dont allow this man to ever ever be around a child.

i dont know how anyone can defend a man letting a rapist to continue to hang out with children.

this makes no sense to me at all. not a little. no kinda or sorta.

an adult does not let a child rapist play with kids.

on edit... i have NEVER been easy on a democrat, just cause he is a democrat. ever. and i call people out for that.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:10 AM
Original message
I don't personally know
what he did or didn't know at any particular time.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
50. if you knew a man was raping kids, would you allow him unsupervised access to kids?
and if you do not personally know the facts, then how can you defend him and accuse everyone else of only being riled cause the coach is a republican.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
66. Really? You think that little of the people you share a board with?
It has fuck all to do with the fact he's a Repulblican.
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. You think the vitriol is because of his political affiliation? That's warped.
That's really sick.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Yeah, actually I do, "sick" or not...
I've been around long enough to see how that goes.

If it's a Republican being accused of something, he's a dirty fucking piece of shit.

If it's a Democrat...eh...not so much.

time and time again.

This is the source of my cynicism.


It's also OK for some, depending on which political party the woman belongs to, to use disgusting, sexist language against her.

Overweight Republican women are "fat" and "ugly". Or "bitches".

Overweight Democratic women are "beautiful".


Maybe the "sick" part about this is the hypocrisy and double standards.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. so it does not matter what people say to you. you will ignore them and dismiss their
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 10:49 AM by seabeyond
disgust of children being raped so you can excuse the coach. no one mentioned this man a republican until about an hour ago. many many people hold this man responsible for allowing a rapist to continue to rape, well before they learned he was a republican.

does logic come into your argument at all?
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I'm sure many people here knew
he was a Republican before an hour ago.

I give DUers a whole lot of credit for being politically astute.


I'm not excusing anyone. I'm just saying that Paterno himself didn't commit a crime, but people are acting like he did.

People can sit around all they want and go on with, "Well I would have done THIS!!!" or "He SHOULD HAVE done that!!"

It's real easy for people to spout off like that when they have absolutely no idea how it must have been to BE in that situation at that time.

We all would like to think we're more ethical or moral than the next guy when we judge him for not doing something. Any one of us, in Paterno's situation, might have done the same thing...reported what we had heard second-hand, and then trusted that the people we reported to would have the honor to do what's right.

Any one of us.

People can NEVER really know what they "would have done" until they're actually knee deep in the shit themselves.





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. he did commit a crime. he committed a crime against children. he allowed a known rapist of kids
to continue to be around kids. that is a crime. maybe not legally, but it is a horrible, insensitive, immoral crime.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #44
58. Actually, unless and until
Sandusky is convicted, he's an alleged pedophile, not a "known rapist".

There are lots of allegations floating around concerning who told what to whom, what this or that person "knew", and what someone saw.

Nobody knows what he "allowed".


I don't agree with his decision to only report it to the school officials and not the police, but then, I wasn't there. Moral crime? I don't know. Lack of good judgement, certainly. I don't know what went through Paterno's mind, and neither does anyone else...

:shrug:


PS...just to clarify, also...I think those students rioting in support of Paterno are very very wrong.





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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. as an adult, i would not let a man free access to a child if i even suspected, let alone KNOW, that
he rapes, plays with, takes showers and hugs, children.

i have had responsibility as manager of business, and as an adult and responsibility as a parent long enough to know, that man would not have been around kids, alone, ever again, after that first time in 1998, then again in 2002

i want to hear one adult that says he would report it and then walk away from it allowing that man to be around other children. if he knew the man was in the complex adn he was not watching the man, or having others watch him, to ensure the safety of the kids.... he allowed.

it isnt hard.

as a parent it is not hard

as an adult it is not hard

as a person in a role of responsibility it is not hard
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Just admit it. It's because he's a Republican!!!!
You're no better than all the other low life scum here. :sarcasm:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. i know. no matter how slowly and loud i talk.
wow
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. You don't know what was in Paterno's mind, but you know what's in DUers' minds.
You KNOW that people are expressing vitriol against Paterno for the sole reason that Paterno is a Republican, and you're SURE that DUers knew he was a Republican because we are politically astute. And that translates into knowing the political party of football coaches. Because it comes up so often here, I guess. Then you turn around and caution that nobody knows what went through Paterno's mind. That's some kind of logic you got going on in your brain, brother.
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. I think you should read the grand jury testimony.
http://www.slideshare.net/BDPAFoundation/penn-state-sex-crime-grand-jury-testimony

If it doesn't change your position about Paterno's guilt, nothing will. Paterno knew in 1998 that Sandusky was a pedophile (again, read the transcript); Sandusky's 1999 'retirement' was the only result, and the school and the athletic department still gave him full access to the facilities that he liked to use. This is more than the 2002 incident; it is a massive cover-up that extends up the chain of command and straight into the Centre county child protective services. Obviously, the need to protect the football program was more important to almost everyone than the need to protect boys as young as seven and eight years old.

Shifting blame to the grad assistant who saw the 2002 assault in know way excuses Paterno - he knew what was going on. They all did, including the janitorial staff, but their precious sport program was more important.

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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #27
35. I read it, thanks n/t
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PSUDem Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
61. Not a trial or conviction
A grand jury report is only one side; only the prosecutor's side. If all was needed was a grand jury report, then to hell with trials. The prosecutor said he was guilty, so then he must be, right? Nancy Grace would be proud of you.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
29. Of course, the witness was given a choice job for the silence
and that job came from this Joe guy, right? They spent decade plus promoting the rapist and working with him, correct? The witness was a student of Joe's and apparently he learned the ropes and kept the rape on the qt, for Joe. Joe did not call the police when he was told.
What do you think Joe would have done if it was his own grand child? The same thing?
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
12. That football program was his life. He didn't want to jeopardize the program or his position
as big man on campus and in the sports world. So now this is what he'll be remembered for. He did this to himself.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. Look; I'm a grad; I "bleed Blue and White"; my house has an entire PSU room, with a signed Lydell
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 10:23 AM by WinkyDink
Mitchell poster and framed SI covers of Joe (and they are mine; husband went to Lafayette College).

YET I AM 100% NOT CONFLICTED IN THE LEAST RE: PATERNO'S ROLE AND RESPONSIBILITIES HERE.

He can take his "I'll pray for them" schtick and you know what.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. There's really no way to nuance covering up a child rapist.
Nope. Sorry. It wipes out the rest.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. If you and your father were encouraged by
Joe Paterno to higher causes that is a very good outcome. It is when we learn our heroes have feet of clay that makes us numb. It need not matter if a hero was a great football coach or a neighbor or relative we look up to. That rose garden has thorns we encounter unexpectedly.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
18. Football coaches in general are not people I would want as friends
And our high school coach was one of the worst. He would "motivate" us by calling us "pussies" and "queers" and once said we would never amount to anything because we were a bunch of "Okies and beaners".

Somehow he doesn't even seem to be a member of the same species as Joe Paterno.

Your post is very thoughtful. It's a shame it wasn't some asshole like Lew Holtz or Woody Hayes that got caught up in this.

Still Paterno fucked up. By his failure to act, he shielded a pedophile. He has to go.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. Like most people on Earth, I never heard of your hero until
last week. Your OP is scary, and I can not see why you think this man is responsible for your father's accomplishments and your education.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
24. Tell me..
why is he a hero..
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. There shouldn't be anything to be conflicted about -a football team shouldn't
supersede the well being of our children. He enabled a pedophile to continue this unforgivable abuse. It appears that many put the import of a football franchise over the health and safety of our children and that is deeply disturbing to me.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
28. Back off with the righteous put downs to this OP
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 10:39 AM by Tom Rinaldo
Anyone who did not have genuine respect for Jpe Paterno PRIOR to this scandal emerging is not in a position to preach about why someone's emotional response to all this has to be clear and simple. Personally Joe Paternl meant little or nothing to me. I was aware that he was very good at being a football coach and I dimly noted that I never heard ugly stories about how he ran his program or the atheletes in it - which is kind of unusual with many winning coaches. So my emotoinal resonse to what happened now is uncluttered by prior appreciation of Joe Paterno. Even so I can acknowledge that there are legitimate positive things that can be said about his contribution to football AND to the relationship between atheletics and academicia AND to racial justice within the realm he worked within. Thise things, to the best of my knowledge, are still true.

Though I am not among them, some have personally been positively effected in some ways by the role model that the Joe Paterno who they were aware of, provided. That experience is personal. If that were my experience, my feelings would be complicated now also. Yes, barring some new information about Paterno's role emerging which makes his behavior more understandable (something I find hard to conceive of) I would still condemn him for what he allowed to happen - in the strongest terms. But yes my feelings would still be "complicated".

I find this OP useful.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. your comments is exactly the reason boys continued to be raped.
there are lines that require nothing more than black and white, right and wrong.

when children are being raped.... just say NO

it is that simple. there are no more words. anything after that is allow a culture of continued rape
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. Total Bullshit
The judgement must be firm. The consequences should be appropriate. The problem is severe. Part of our emotional lives will always attempt to round the square, and it will never be possible, but the emotional need to do so is real. Therefor feelings are more complicated than judgements. Judgements ultimately should determine actions, but no I do not condemn sincere and genuine emotions deriving from a positive place - not if they don't block the appropriate judgement being reached. The OP did not give any hint of ambivelence over how horrific rape is of any gender at any age. There was nothing muddy about that, if there were I would not have written what I did.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Wow, really? You're telling people to "back off" why, exactly?
And FYI, what you consider a "righteous put-down" is something other people might see differently, just as you're trying to say about having special feelings for this coach.

Some people have special feelings for kids who are abused.

Some people find the idea of being so emotionally attached to a flipping coach... as opposed to, say, a loved one... some people think that kind of emotional bond with a sports figure with whom you have no actual personal relationship to be a rather thin reason to be conflicted about seeing how absolutely and incontrovertibly wrong this man's actions were.

"Back off"... FFS... unreal.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
52. Only about the put downs of the OP, not about our reactions to the rapes and coverups
You are right to point out that "righteous" is a subjective viewpoint, and that is useful to say. I don't believe that the OP, or my comments, were calls to dampen any of the fully warrented outrage felt over the rape of those kids, the abuse of power, the coverup, or over the role of money in society etc.

Most of us on occaision, not often but sometimes, do develop positive associations for individuals who we have never met. We do it en masse here at DU all of the time. Sometimies people represent courage to us, other times integrity, other times a work ethic, other times perserverence, rising above the odds, standing up for something that is just in a field or area where few peers are willing to, etc. Human examples like that matter to all of us from time to time. Why one person who we don't know personally conncects in a personal way, more so than another, varies with each of our individual lives and experiences. The OP did not justify what Peterno did or did not do. It did not excuse him. It did not minimize the seriousness of the crimes committed. In fact, it condemned him and did not want him to receive any special treatment for any reason. It just explained why emotionally it was complicated to face the reality of the bottom line reality. It did not shy away from the truth of that horrific reality.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
59. What is the precise, relevant and objective ethical measure of those...
"Even so I can acknowledge that there are legitimate positive things that can be said about his contribution..."

What is the precise, relevant and objective ethical measure of those "positive things" weighed against a series of young victimized children?

If the answer is either too vague or too subjective to allow an answer, I for one will maintain criticism of what he did (or, to put it melodramatically yet incorrectly, a "righteous put-down").
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. His contributions pale before his critical moral failure
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 12:19 PM by Tom Rinaldo
His failure cries out for "righteous put downs". I never intended to defend Paterno. I was commenting on what I reaqd in the OP, which IMO condemened what he did as well. The OP did not attempt to answer the question you asked me. Therefor I do not think it fair to assume the answer would be different than the one I just gave you. The OP explained why for some people this news triggers off a swirl of complicated EMOTIONS. In doing so it mentions things that PREVIOUSLY were known or believed about Paterno that caused the writer to have held him in respect BEFFORE the horrific revelations.

This is not a direct comparison, it would be a much deeper conflict, but the parent of someone who is convicted or murder can both condemn his or her child's act and even accept the ultimate legal consequence, but especially in the stunned period of coming to grips with it, still be flooded by conflicting emotions about their child - including remembering things that they love about him or her.

I was defending how someone can have complicated emotions, not defending how anyone could defend Joe Paterno. In my own admittedly subjective opinion, I thought a number of the responses to this OP were harsh to the writer who it seems comes to the same conclusion that everyone on this thread seems to reach, but offers insight into why someone can have complicated emotions about Paterno that most of us do not share in personally.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. You see complicated emotions. I simply see rationalizations.
"I was defending how someone can have complicated emotions.."

You see complicated emotions. I simply see rationalizations.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
37. The moral high ground here
... is clearly with those who support the firing of Mr Paterno, and they're going to make the most of it. Rarely is an issue so clear-cut: the man egregiously failed in his handling of this affair, and he and everyone in the organization, from Mr McQueary to the top, are to some degree culpable in the misdeeds of Mr Sandusky.

That having been said, I think emotions are running rather high on both sides of this question. Those who are not familiar with the state, the university, or the man can much more easily see this question in terms of rigid black-and-white principles, by which anyone who "enables" child rape is only one degree less culpable than the perpetrator. Having no emotional investment, they are less shocked and defensive than those who do. This is human nature.

I do think some of the anti-Paterno points are ironical, especially the ones that defend the trustees because they have a "fiduciary responsibility" to the University. That seems an argument akin to defending corporate greed because after all, the corporation has a responsibility to make money for the shareholders. It is clear to many that the trustees axed Mr Paterno because they are frantically doing damage control and he is the highest-profile individual involved, and thus makes a perfect scapegoat. Much of the outrage on the part of Mr Paterno's defenders comes simply from the belief that he is being treated with disproportionate unfairness, not a belief that he is innocent of moral failing. This is why people contrast his public service with his failure and think that he should have been left to retire honorably at the end of the season.

Much more of the outrage, and I believe a contributing factor to the riotous reaction is simply due to disbelief and horror. This is also a very human reaction, and I'm rather amazed that the people here on DU are so incapable of understanding it. The university and its students have been forced to confront a terrible reality, one that is all the more horrible because it involves an institution and a man about whom a comfortable, affirmative legend has been constructed. This is a classic case of attacking the messenger because the message is too awful to contemplate. What amazes me is the radical outrage and condemnation against the students, the university, and the people involved, as though their conduct were simply unimaginable and far beyond the pale. But it doesn't amaze me too much. After all, the outraged are dealing with an unthinkable and horrible reality as well.

-- Mal

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. it is a long time coming watching women and now boys assaulted/harassed/raped
being dismissive because of agenda in politics, sport, power and money.

raping children is not a tough one to say no to, for most of us. it is just not even a little hard.
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
43. Do you have complicated feelings about child rapists.
If the answer to that question is no and I am sure it is, then how many children would you allow to be raped if you had the power to prevent it from happening. That should be a no brainer. I do not care how much respect and admiration you had for Joe Paterno. The fact that this respect did not turn to disgust when you learned he had allowed little boys to be raped by looking the other way for many years is mind boggling.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. i asked the defenders, how many adults would allow a man who rapes children to continue to hang
around children. one defender, tell me you would knowing allow a rapist around kids. ONE. not one has volunteered.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Good post, pennylane.
My thoughts exactly.
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
47. Are you not going to respond to any of the posts to your OP?
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
48. I thought you would say your heart is broken and your previous admiration
of this man disgusts you.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. that would be the obvious, huh. amazing. nt
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SomethingFishy Donating Member (552 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
51. Somehow I get the feeling that if this man were the janitor
and not the football coach there would be no riots, and no heartfelt defense of a man who basically allowed children to be fed to a child molester. How he can possibly sleep at night is beyond me.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
55. But the catholic church used (and continues to use) the same excuse.
Not saying you excuse his behaviour, no judgment on you, no attack here, I respect you and your right to your opinion, just sayin'.

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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
56. it sucks finding out that people we admire and/or care about aren't all they're cracked up to be
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pennylane100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. It really does
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 01:17 PM by pennylane100
and it is much harder coming to terms with it when you find out it is a beloved family member. It is stomach churning territory but when you know that terrible harm was done by someone you loved and admired, you must acknowledge that and condemn them.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
60. What does Penn State have besides football?
but he also helped transform a rural college in a remote Pennsylvania town into a nationally respected institution.

Penn State is one of the land grant universities, many of which are in similarly remote, rural towns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities

"The mission of these institutions as set forth in the 1862 Act is to focus on the teaching of practical agriculture, science and engineering (though "without excluding ... classical studies"), as a response to the industrial revolution and changing social class." per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land-grant_universities

Unfortunately, Penn State is much less distinguished than other similarly situated universities in fulfilling this role. Compare Penn State to other Big Ten universities in towns like East Lansing, Lafayette, or Bloomington. Or with its neighbor, Cornell.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
69. No University, no footbal team, no money, no coach is more important than the life of a child.
That's just a fact and Penn State made all that more important than 9 little boys. An 8 year old. A nine year old. A 10 year old. A 12 year old. A 13 year old. Walk in their shoes for just one minute and tell me you don't LOATHE what Paterno and all the school officials have done.

This whole thing make me want to vomit. FOOTBALL and BILLIONS of dollars were more important than children. This country is so dam fucked up.
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adigal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. You can do many good things, but doing something so bad,
so horrible as not following up on a child abuse case, and still letting the man come to the college, and have his charity with young boys - it doesn't erase the good, but it overshadows it. This is forever a note on his history at Penn State, as it should be. He did not do the right thing and I am sure more boys suffered in the following years.
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