20 kids and counting! Michelle Duggar announces she's pregnant again

[RamboLiberal]

Michelle Duggar and her husband Jim Bob are expecting their 20th child, the couple revealed exclusively to TODAY.

"We are so excited," Michelle Duggar told TODAY Moms before the broadcast. Now three and a half months pregnant, the mom of 19 says she was actually surprised to discover that she's expecting again at 45. "I was not thinking that God would give us another one, and we are just so grateful."

The super-sized family stars in its own reality TV show, “19 Kids and Counting,” on TLC (guess they will have to update the title!).

-----

Michelle Duggar’s last pregnancy was fraught with danger. She suffered from gall-bladder problems as well as preeclampsia. In order to save her life, doctors delivered daughter Josie three and a half months prematurely – she weighed only one pound, six ounces at birth, and endured a series of health emergencies, including a perforated bowel. Josie eventually went home with the rest of the Duggar family, and is now a healthy toddler who will celebrate her second birthday in December.

http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/07/8684372-20-kids-and-counting-michelle-duggar-announces-shes-pregnant-again

Sorry but I have to wonder if this is some kind of mental illness.

[vi5]

1. You have to wonder? Seriously?

You have to wonder whether the compulsion to have 20 kids is some kind of mental illness?

I'm sorry, I don't care who it offends this is just ridiculous and yes, it is a mental illness.

[Ship of Fools]

7. With Octomom, I'd heard it said that some women are obsessed with

BABIES to this point ... Either way, what a fine example of over-population denial.

[get the red out]

36. Yes but we were allowed to criticize her

Since these people are fucking, idiotic religious nuts after money we have to applaud them for what they do and give them a TV show.

[Ship of Fools]

51. I agree, but the larger point being that mental illness is not properly

recognized in this nation -- not to the degree it needs to be.
So many issues, so little time ...

[get the red out]

59. You are absolutely right

And it is expecially not even permitted to be hinted at when it can be covered up by "religion".

[JVS]

82. The family website tells the story of her having a miscarriage long ago...

when she first got pregnant. She blames the miscarriage on the fact that she was taking the pill before going off of it and conceiving. She felt really guilty about it. I'm no shrink, but I'd feel comfortable in asserting that this constant babymaking is a guilty reaction to that.

[teachthemwell15]

86. Just my opinion....

..... but the whole situation with Michelle and Jim Bob (I think I've got it right) is soooooo self serving, all in the name of "God".

[LaurenG]

2. I have to say this. God did not do this. She and her husband did.

What are these people even thinking anymore? I'm saddened that while we have 7 billion people on this planet the Duggers think we still need more.

[kag]

154. I'm with you LaurenG.

My 15-year-ol son recognizes overpopulation as a threat to our society (perhaps even our species), so he has proclaimed that he intends to not have children. I'll wait till he meets the love of his life, and see if he still feels that way, but at least for now he believes that having no children is the responsible thing to do.

So I keep thinking, here is this smart kid who recognizes this societal problem, and he decides NOT to procreate, not to have a child whom he can teach and cultivate into another smart person like himself. And over in reality-TV land (I've never seen the show, but I've heard of it), there's this completely out-of-control and probably mentally ill couple who are busy squirting out babies as fast as they can, so they can teach them to be just as stupid as themselves.

It's just not fair.

[hlthe2b]

3. I'm vehemently pro-choice.... But, for all my fellow women who say that this is

her choice and one I have to respect, I say BULLSHIT. Maybe about 10 births ago, I might have agreed, but......Even if one could ignore the overwhelming and disproportionate drain on global resources that comes from such exaggerated reproduction, the fact is that WE are supporting these kids. Given the number of little tax deductions (ignoring their tv reality show), their parents are actually making money from all these births. Not to mention the very preventable drain on medical resources.

No, I don't respect their choice. It is unseemly and disgusting, IMO. Sorry to any fellow feminists who feel otherwise, but I call Bullshit.

[AngryAmish]

9. Scratch a population controller, find a eugenicist.

[hlthe2b]

17. Huh?

I don't even want to surmise what you mean by that....:shrug:

There is one hell of a big difference between taking away incentives for uncontrolled levels of births (including social rewards like celebrity reality shows) and involuntary controls-- such as forced sterilization-- as might be suggested by eugenics.

[AngryAmish]

34. Every time this woman gets pregnant I have to re-explain eugenics

Eugenics is goal and a social movement. It is not a set of laws (though it can be). In essence it is the attempt to improve the human breedstock by making sure the "wrong" sort of person does not have children. This can be through social methods outside the law also.

You have determined that this woman is the wrong sort of person to be having children. Her choice may be unwise but if one believes in reproductive freedom then one does not interfere with that choice.

You call for taking away her livelihood - her show. Who would take it away? The government? How do you square that? Perhaps you are calling for a boycott of her channel or sponsors for her show. That cuts both ways. Would you be ok with a boycott by right wingers of some gay marriage themed show? The right to control one's own reproduction and the right to marry whoever you choose are individual rights guaranteed under our Constitution. We should support people exercising their rights, no?

[hlthe2b]

38. I have never "determined that this woman is the wrong sort of person to be having children"

That is a very deliberate mischaracterization of what I have said. Arguing for removal of incentives that would elicit such excessive reproduction is hardly an argument for eugenics. Despicable mischaracterization. So disingenuous and clearly deliberate, in fact, that I will simply cease any further discussion with you.

[AngryAmish]

44. "No, I don't respect their choice. It is unseemly and disgusting, IMO."

[hlthe2b]

57. And, how does that equate to me saying they should have no children?

Forget it. You know better. Not worth my time.

[get the red out]

68. Possibly a troll

I see that on liberal sites from time to time, there are a lot of people who troll against women's rights and for specific (woman-hating) religious groups and they are often quite clever in how they do it. And there are also liberals who don't really give a damn about women's lives that twist pro-women concepts like "pro-choice" in order to be absolutist in their thinking and let us know that if we disagree we are just overemotional or anti-choice.

[kag]

158. Yeah, I've seen this guy/girl before.

He's been on my ignore list in the past, and I think I'll toss him right back on after this.

[AngryAmish]

83. You advocate, through government tax policy, discouraging this woman from having more kids

You advocate legal discrimination against her because of her status as a mother of lots of other kids. Which is fine. Your opinion.

You seem to think that the concept of eugenics is only China style forced abortions and sterilization. What I am telling you is that it is a larger concept than that. If you look at eugenicists now and in the past many of them were uncomfortable with that step. Negative eugenics is the discouraging of the "wrong" people from having kids. Positive eugenics is encouraging the "right" people to have lots of children - like this woman seems to believe and the entire silly quiverful movement.

I think policies such as you advocate are dangerous. There is a slippery slope than one should not tread upon.

[hlthe2b]

88. Your equating disincentivising through tax policy with eugenics...

is what is disgusting. Enough of you. :puke:

[hlthe2b]

118. Based on your definition, arguably, it is those without children who are being discriminated

against vis-a-vis tax policy. Limiting tax deductions to the first 5 or 10 or 15 or however many children is hardly discrimination. It is setting limits on those deductions to advance societal aims. It can only be discriminatory if it were not applied across the board, but only to one or another group of people. Surely you can understand that.

[Rainbowreflect]

126. There is a big difference between not rewarding people for

having (many) children and penalizing them for having children.
I don't think our tax code should either rewarded or penalized anyone for have kids, whether they are "right" or "wrong" people.

[redqueen]

130. +1 Massive logic fail there. (nt)

[leftynyc]

92. WTF are you babbling about

Who said anything about the government taking away their show? Who said anything about eugenics? Who said this is the wrong sort of woman to have children? Why are you arguing like a freeper and putting words in people's mouths?

[LanternWaste]

102. I don't think that condemning a decision or denying deference to it

I don't think that condemning a decision or denying deference to it (salva sit reverentia) necessarily implies one's desire to deny the fundamental ability to make that decision.

Indeed, it seems that far more often than not, it simply implies tolerating that thing. :shrug:





(However, I do understand that melodramatic implication is often given a greater priority than actually establishing what that other person may or may not have said...)

[get the red out]

20. Stockholm Syndrome, brainwashing

They are part of the Quiverfull movement. I am also sick of women who have been raised like abused dogs via some whacked out religion being expected that they are able to exercise their rights just like those of us fortunate enough to come from more normal, humane backgrounds that believed in equality.

[laundry_queen]

24. Total brainwashing

Most of these women think if they don't 'accept God's blessings' they are going to hell. And having a baby is supposed to be the way into heaven for them. So they keep on having 'em, thinking this is their 'duty'. Building God's Army and all that crap is factored in as well. It is a cult, plain and simple .

[get the red out]

28. Exactly! And we are supposed to "watch this wonderful family"

And be in awe of such an incredible mother. The whole thing makes me ill, TV is promoting a cult that denies women equal rights. I get sick when I see ads for this show as well as the one about the dumb-ass prick with 4 idiot women willing to be his slave women and baby producers. They have three houses now, evidently, it would be nice if my husband and I could sell our condo and get just one. But then there is just one wife in this situation, and that's damn well they way it will stay.

It's about time to demonize this hateful, misogynist shit rather than applaud it. I wonder if TLC has thought about creating a show about those Christians that believe in physical punishment for wives? It might be a real money maker for them. Or maybe they could just follow some serial killer around while he slits women's throats, that would work too.

[laundry_queen]

37. I'm amazed at the fact

that in this day and age TLC can put crap on like that. One show I watched everyone was moved out of the house while the premature baby was sick and only 2 older boys stayed behind. These were boys in their late teens/early 20's. They didn't clean a fucking thing and the girls came back to moldy fruit on the kitchen counter. When the camera man asked, "are you upset they didn't do any housework at all while you guys were gone?" the girl says, "No, because they are boys and you can't expect them to be concerned with such things." WTF!! The horrible awful sexism that goes on in that family makes me want to puke.

[get the red out]

43. I can't even watch these shows

I don't want to destroy my TV. I become absolutely enraged by TV promoting this anti-woman agenda. And when I utilize my free speech by criticizing it I usually get slammed as a "hater". Damned right I HATE this, and I can say that as much as I want. Women have suffered long and hard in this world for our hard-fought rights to be dismissed so casually. It is not acceptable that young girls are raised without the knowledge that they have the rights of full citizens of this country either, and these cults that these TV shows promote do exactly that. It isn't funny, and it isn't interesting, it is lives wasted because of being unfortunate enough to be born female, right here in this so-called land of the free.

FUCK THAT SHIT!

[bengalherder]

93. I read several books recently on the FDLS

They raise their girls to believe that they have no legal recourse to the abuse. One of the women related having been called a liar because she told other women she had a lawyer because they had all been told that women weren't allowed lawyers.

[newspeak]

119. yes, the more disturbing question

is why does this make it on a network? I have no interest watching the show, I think my daughter is more than a baby making machine. But, it does remind me of the propaganda during Hitler-the wholesome family and breeding babies for the state.

[get the red out]

131. Me too

I wonder about possible agendas behind it.

A co-worker of mine put it best though, this show gets viewers for the same reason that people rubber-neck a traffic accident.

[riderinthestorm]

136. Exactly. +1 nt

[teachthemwell15]

85. You've got it right...

...fear and trembling are -the- impetuses by which people like the Duggars live.

"Fear of the Lord" drives people to belief systems that can only encourage behaviors that border on delusion and grandeur.

[seabeyond]

4. probablya psychological disorder. i read about the addiction to

need to, being preg. years ago when i was reading parenting books.

what a life.

[Blue_Tires]

25. what she's addicted to is that money-media gravy train, which was slowing down

and thank you to NBC for enabling these fuckheads...

[seabeyond]

41. there is a whole chemical thing going on with preg. i am simply putting that out

$ with what she is doing with her body may not be enough. 20 kids? sounds more.

[lunatica]

5. Having this many pregnancies was common in pre-birth control times, but most of

the babies died too, because it was also pre-infant care.

[Contrary1]

6. After losing twin girls, my daughter and her husband would be happy to have just one child...

God sure does work in mysterious ways.
:think:
They've been going at this all wrong. I'll tell them they need to get their own reality show first! That evidently works.

[pipi_k]

29. My poor stepdaughter

and her husband had two miscarriages since July of last year.

Like your daughter, all they want is ONE.

They both have real good jobs...a beautiful house...and they would be great parents.

Just one, that's all they ask for...

[efhmc]

191. There is a bulletin board that I can HIGHLY recommend if you

want to pm me. It was a great place of information and support for my daughter when she was trying to get pg. (She now has 2 boys.)

[woodsprite]

8. I figure their ratings were dropping. n/t

[babydollhead]

10. plus, the last one almost killed her. some Mother...

plus the older kids have to raise the rest of the quiver. Plus, when you have babies after you are all old and your eggs are drying out, they could suffer all kinds of maladies. Plus, if you were baby number 20, you'd probably have to share your double stroller with your Mom's prolapsed uterus.

[Occupy_2012]

155. Bring the brain bleach quick, I can't see!

[Scairp]

177. LOL

Well summarized. Hopefully she will have to that thing removed after this kid is born so that another "miracle" doesn't occur and bring number 21.

[pstokely]

183. But it's Gawds Will (nt)

nt

[Tatiana]

11. She is addicted to being pregnant, I think. Nothing else makes sense. n/t

[pstokely]

184. She's been pregnant most of her adult life

19 Kids X 9 months per kid = 171 months = 14.25 years

[Scairp]

198. Two sets of twins

So it was a something less than what you've come up with. And that last kid almost died because she was a micro-preemie and at 25 weeks gestation right on the cusp of whether or not neonatal specialists could save, because that is essentially a fetus continuing to develop outside the womb. So not every single kid was a normal nine month pregnancy. I'm terrible at math so you can redo it. Please.:)

[Darth_Kitten]

194. Maybe they just love sex?

;)

[Scairp]

201. That's great

And admirable after so many years of marriage and that many children, but what's wrong with putting on a raincoat, or using something else over the counter? They brought the sponge back, and I never got pregnant using that. Lots of non-hormonal options and they work much better than doing absolutely nothing.

[Le Taz Hot]

12. As one who is pro-choice,

her body, her choice.

[hlthe2b]

22. Where is the "choice" for the older kids--especially the girls--

who are destined to become child caretakers and domestic servants in order to free the parents to continue THEIR choice? Where do they go to receive the childhood they are denied?

[Le Taz Hot]

27. There are no conditions to the declaration.

The fact is, none of it is my, or anyone else's, business as to if/when/how many children she chooses to have. That's what pro-choice means.

[hlthe2b]

31. We can set limits on the number of tax deductions they get...

and other incentives. There are valid social reasons to take away the incentives for such excessive reproduction. If you don't give a damn about the implications of global overpopulation that are very clearly on our threshold, I can't help you. Justifying such devastating excessive levels of reproduction under the guise of "pro-choice" is to turn ones back on the starvation and suffering that will surely come in the future.

Yes, there certainly are conditions to the declaration when it has very real global impacts.

If by chance you really don't understand the very imminent global crisis, take a look at this very well produced short video. We were 1 billion in 1804. In 200 years we have reached more than 7 billion people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcSX4ytEfcE&feature=player_embedded#t=0s

or http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/11/7-billion-and-growing-.html


And, no THEIR choice does not give them the right to turn their children into indentured servants.

[Le Taz Hot]

46. We're not talking about taxcuts,

whether or not they're good parents or any of the other extenuating issues here. This is about reproductive choice. Pro choice means exactly that. It really is that simple.

[hlthe2b]

54. I don't think you get to tell me what issues I can discuss

Whether we should incentivise those decisions which have wider harmful implications, including harm to children is clearly related to her choice.

I am not advocating taking away her choice, but I do believe we do not have to enable those egregiously excessive reproductive choices that have adverse societal impacts.

[Le Taz Hot]

64. When did I tell you you couldn't discuss something?

You want to put conditions on pro-choice and I'm asserting that pro-choice is unconditional. Where you got that I'm "telling you what issues you can discuss" I'm not sure. :shrug:

[hlthe2b]

66. Taking away social incentives is NOT taking away pro-choice.

What part of that can you not understand?

[Le Taz Hot]

72. Yeah, I don't think we want to get

to the snark thing here, it muddles the debate. The issue, the one and only issue here, is whether or not a woman has the right to determine if/when/how many chilcdren she is to have. The subject of social incentive is extraneous to the topic, which is pro-choice -- is it an unconditional right or not?

[hlthe2b]

77. It is not extraneous. She has the choice. Society has the right to

criticize and to advocate for policies that do not enable or incentivise such excessive "choice." Pro-choice does not mean freedom from criticism. Nor does it mean that those choices should not have repercussions when they adversely impact others (including, but not limited to her other children). You seem unable to grasp that her protected right to choose does not mean she should not feel the adverse impacts of those decisions.

[kag]

161. You are absolutely right, hlthe2b.

Taking away tax incentives is hardly taking away her choice. She and her husband have the legal choice to squirt out babies as often as they choose. But I, as a taxpayer, should not have to pay for their excesses, their "choice." Just as it is illegal to use federal money to pay for abortions (a law I detest, and one that should be overturned), it should also be illegal to use federal money to pay for this family's obvious excess.

Our congressional representatives have decided that we should not have to pay for a practice that THEY find morally reprehensible (abortion), so I should not have to subsidize a practice that I find morally reprehensible (excessive squirting of babies).

[get the red out]

33. Fine

Let's expound on the fact that they have also "chosen" to be miserable parents and treat their older female children like little child-care slaves and limit the parental attention any of their children get. Social services should remove all these neglected children from the home. Let her pop out as many as she wants but neglect is unacceptable and not a legal choice.

[Le Taz Hot]

47. Please see reply #46.

[get the red out]

52. Pro-choice does not mean

we need to applaud this idiot, nor does it take away our freedom of speech in criticizing her. Just like with freedom of speech, criticism is NOT the government removing a right.

[Le Taz Hot]

69. Who's applauding her?

And who is trying to "take away our freedom of speech . . .?" My goodness, these responses seem to want to interject things that don't exist. It is your right to criticize, it is my right to counter. Maybe we can focus solely on the debate at hand.

[get the red out]

73. You are quite eager to go all black and white

Pro-choice means we need to STFU and support this brainwashed woman as she pops baby after baby. You tend to counter by accusing others not of exercising free speech but of being in favor of eugenics and such. That isn't countering, that's jumping the shark.

Nothing in this world is black and white, I am very pro-choice and I am also very pro-female and pro-planet. There are numerous issues here.

[Le Taz Hot]

79. Few things in life are black and white

but this is one of them. Here is the topic: Does a woman have the inaliable right to chose if/when/how many children she is going to have? It's a simple question: Yes or no. (You are the only one bringing yet another extraneous topic: eugenics.)

Come to think of it, this needs to be a seperate topic.

[Freddie Stubbs]

48. If you believe that any of these children are being abused or neglected, why haven't you

contacted Child Protective Services?

[get the red out]

55. Oh please

That suggestion is meaningless and you know it. If you do not believe that these children are neglected I pity you.

[treestar]

144. With that number, there's a good chance of neglect

I do think CPS should just check them out if any suspicion comes about.

[NashVegas]

146. And the Youngest of Them Will Have Other Children for Parents

Which, contrary to many childrens' fantasy novels, doesn't work out so well.

[leftynyc]

94. Absolutely her choice

That doesn't change the facts - she almost died with her last pregnancy and is risking her life and leaving 19 children motherless because she's brainwashed herself into thinking this is G-d's will. I'm thinking that if the network cancelled her show, she'd close her legs fast enough.

[Hotler]

98. Where do they get their money? Why has their insurance not been dropped??

How much tax dollars are going to them. So many questions????

[Arkansas Granny]

110. I agree. You don't have to agree with someone's choice, but it's still hers to make.

[pstokely]

185. According to them them, it's gawds choice

If she dies during childbirth, it's gawds choice. She'll die pregnant or keep getting pregnant until menopause

[mrs_p]

13. Something seriously bothers me about this couple

I don't watch the show (would never be able to stomach all that god blessed us baloney), but I just can't help but wonder if the older children have a choice whether they want to raise their siblings. Does the mom do anything but get herself pregnant? Is she even there for her kids, or really know them individually? She doesn't have a family - she has a classroom!

[hobbit709]

14. so her claim to fame is that she's a baby factory.

[Odin2005]

15. These people are mentally ill.

[JaneQPublic]

16. Madam, it is a vagina, not a clown car. (nt)

[asjr]

18. Are they now feeding their children

on free publicity?

[Ian David]

19. ...

[BR_Parkway]

21. Labor for her must be like a mild sneeze to the rest of us.

[get the red out]

23. CASH COW

As long as she keeps poppin' the filming ain't stoppin'.

Most people watch like rubber-necking a traffic accident, the messier it gets the better the ratings. These folks want the money and acceptance for their religious desire to breed enough whacked out fundies through the Quiverfull movement to vote us into a Christian version of Iran (or worse).

[TwilightGardener]

26. There is no way you get to individually know and cherish twenty kids.

I have no idea why this whole extreme-parenting experience would be enjoyable for them--besides getting paid to do a show.

[get the red out]

32. I hope I live long enough for a tell all book

If any of these home-schooled kids are capable of putting a sentence together enough to even dictate one.

[hamsterjill]

90. Me, too!

With each passing birth, the odds increase that at least ONE will be writing such a book!!! lol

[treestar]

145. Exactly.

Even the Catholics of yesteryear had 6-8. And it would be tough with that many.

[Darth_Kitten]

195. Yeah, imagine quality time...each kid gets an hour a day of one on one time...not.

:(

[piratefish08]

30. i'd put money and religious fundamentalism ahead of mental illness......

[joeybee12]

35. Sick people...you're rick, she needs treatment...nt

[City Lights]

39. Freaks. eom

[eilen]

40. She's a hoarder. nt

[Javaman]

42. okay, wait...

so she shoots out another kid because they are all full of that full quiver bullshit. but they have no problem with using modern meds to make sure their spawn live?

I would think that would run completely against their quasi-reality based pseudo-religion? no?

that poor woman.

[get the red out]

50. If there is ever a tragedy, God forbid,

then there will be a discussion, and a very big one; but they will be applauded and soundly rewarded until then.

Even back in the teens my Great-Grandmother was able to stop at 12.

[Turbineguy]

45. The heavy work

is carrying the money to the bank.

Somebody!

Please!

Buy these people a wheelbarrow!

[Nye Bevan]

49. I think she just does it to piss off DUers. And it's working really well.

Many DUers only seem to be "pro-choice" when it's a choice that they agree with.

[Le Taz Hot]

56. Ain't it the truth?

I'm amazed at the responses here. Since when does pro-choice come with conditions? :shrug:

[get the red out]

61. How DARE we exercise freedom of speech

We should STFU right now if we don't share YOUR opinion. How idiotic of us not to realize things should work that way.

[Le Taz Hot]

76. Please point out where I

said you (or anyone) should "STFU right now . . . " My dear, this is an old trick and it's used often: If your positiohn is indefensible, change the argument. The topic is pro-choice. Does a woman have the right to decide if/when/how many children she is to have? It's one of those rare instances that is truly either/or. Either she has thet right, unconditionally, or she doesn't.

[get the red out]

81. NO ONE HAS QUESTIONED THAT RIGHT

It's you who keep changing the subject. We don't question the right, we question HER. We question the Quiverfull movement. We question the TV show. I have not seen one single person question her rights, not one. Yet you keep lecturing everyone on the basis of something that no one did.

You simply have an agenda, obviously, to shut people up about discussing this in any way that is critical of this couple at all. Any time someone offers criticism you approch it as if they called for the woman to be arrested and thrown in the darkest dungeon for getting pregnant. That is inferring something that was never the subject in order to promote your agenda and stop conversation.

[Puglover]

70. What I am astounded by is your

choice to cloak this lunacy behind "pro-choice" It's complete and utter crap.

[get the red out]

78. Thank you

Indeed it is. Expecially when no one has even hinted at desiring any government control or laws to stop her from having babies, yet people who disagreed with the Quiverfull woman in question were called "eugenicists". Amazing.

[LanternWaste]

114. I don't think that the one denies the other.

"cloak this lunacy behind "pro-choice"..."

I don't think that the one denies the other. The one may factually exist independently, yet parallel to the other.

I believe problems with the discourse re: this topic may arise when one begins to conflate the two-- implying that they are indeed interdependent on each other.

[seabeyond]

58. ah hahaha. that is funny. cute

ya, that is it.

[hlthe2b]

63. Pro-choice does not require that we incentivise such choices.

Some here seem unwilling or unable to understand the difference.

[leftynyc]

97. Please point out even ONE post

that asks the government to take away this woman's right to treat her uterus as a clown car. Being pro-choice doesn't mean we don't get to have an opinion - that's only what wingers think.

[Nye Bevan]

111. Your wish is my command:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6437953&mesg_id=6438262

"We need limits. No more than three births per parent".

[Nye Bevan]

147. and here's one from this thread advocating forced sterilization....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2261880&mesg_id=2263088

[Arugula Latte]

101. Who is taking steps to force her to stop? No one. That's the difference.

We're not obligated to applaud her for plopping out another freakin' fundy kid, though. Sheesh.

[treestar]

143. I'm looking forward to the day one of those kids

comes out and reveals it all and turns out to be a liberal. With 20 kids, at least one of them is going to rebel.

[Nye Bevan]

156. DUers are advocating forced sterilization (nt)

[hlthe2b]

164. One DUer does not equate to "DUers advocating forced sterilization"

any more than the one DUer on this thread who would equate a change in tax policy to limit the amount of deductions for additional children at some point with eugenics is representative of DUers. Come on Nye. Stop with the irrational hysterics and frothing hyperbole.

[Nye Bevan]

165. Here's another one. So "DUers" in the plural was correct.

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1639088&mesg_id=1639107

[hlthe2b]

166. The point remains... A small extremist opinion does not represent the majority

opinion-- no matter how much you'd like to represent it as such.

[Nye Bevan]

167. I never said "the majority of DUers". I (correctly) said "DUers".

It's bad enough that *any* DUers advocate forced sterilization.

[qanda]

53. I'm going to leave my thoughts at I hope for the sake of the child

That she has a problem-free pregnancy and delivers a healthy baby.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

60. After 19 Kids, How Are They Even Able To Conceive?

I'm not talking about her health. I'm talking about physically, how is her husband ABLE to do what needs to be done to get her pregnant a 20th time? It's gotta be like throwing a sausage down a hallway at this point.

[redqueen]

133. You might want to learn about vaginas.

There are books which will explain it to you. You can even get them free at a library if you need to.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

181. I would describe her reproductive parts as more clown-car-like

just when you think anymore can't come out... here comes another!

[RFKHumphreyObama]

62. Damn! For a moment I misread this as "Michele Obama announces she is pregnant again"

And I was so happy for the Obama family and so excited!

Then I read the title correctly -"meh"

[RaleighNCDUer]

65. Baby hoarders. nt

[LisaL]

67. Sarah Palin had a child at that age. And the child had Down syndrome.

The probability of Down syndrome really goes up at that age, and these people are clearly not going to do prenatal testing for it.

[RebelOne]

121. My brother was born when my mother was 44,

and physically he was OK, but mentally is another story. He was in and out of trouble with the law ever since he started attending school.

[Darth_Kitten]

193. Yes, and I'm sure there's a lot of children of teens, 20 and 30 somethings who

have been problem children, don't see how age is the only factor.

[LibertyLover]

138. I was born when my mom was 45 (although only just turned 45)

I'm 58 now, so her pregnancy was, shall we say, naturally occurring. I'm fine. She knew she was taking a risk in terms of health, hers and mine, but it turned out ok. While a late pregnancy is risky, it doesn't have to result in a baby with Down or sick in other ways. There times when my pro-choice stance really gets uncomfortable and I have to admit that with the Duggers that comfort needle spikes and pegs in the red zone.

[Raine]

173. My grandmother was 46 when my father was born and he was perfectly fine

physically and mentally.

[LisaL]

174. The risk of Down syndrome goes up dramatically.

Doesn't mean every child will have it.

[Darth_Kitten]

192. So does the chance of the kid being a genius apparently.

n/t

[onlyadream]

71. I admit it - I watch the show *blush*

But when I saw that headline, I thought, "OH NO!". Seriously, they are crazy religious - they won't even dance. UGH. As for the number of children - WHAT IF EVERYONE did that? OMG! Can you imagine, every family in the world with 10 to 20 kids? The kids seem super sweet and well raised, but come on!

[hamsterjill]

74. Disgusting on so many levels

There are so many good posts upwards of mine highlighting most of why I think it's utterly disgusting that she's continuing to breed.

But one point that I would like to make is even if they are insured, and I'm guessing that they are, what a drain they are on the insurance company. Most insurance plans that I've seen in my lifetime have a premium for a spouse, but then the premium for the "family" is the same amount whether there is one child or twenty children being covered.

I'm not saying that I have much sympathy for insurance companies. That's not my point. My point is that the Duggars are taking a little more than their share of insurance proceeds, especially after the last child was born prematurely. Can you imagine the costs involved in caring for that child for the length of time that she was in the hospital, as well as her continued care?

Am I trying to put a price on a human life? No...but somewhere in this equation the words "responsible parenting" have to be considered. It's not okay that she just gets pregnant again because she can. Sure, she has a right to do it. But the question is whether or not it is a very responsible thing for her to get pregnant again. It wasn't God in that bedroom making her pregnant. It was Jim Bob.

And the fact that she indicates that her doctors have given her the "green light". Was she seeing Conrad Murray or something? What doctor would possibly approve of this?

[Blue_Tires]

91. The Duggars could have 20 more kids and the insurance companies

will still rake in billions of profit each quarter...

[hamsterjill]

99. You are correct.

But the insurance companies will still scream that their costs have increased and the rest of us will pay larger premiums because of it.

[pstokely]

186. I think they had some fundy doctor tell birth control causes miscarriages

Or god punished them for using birth control through a miscarriage

[bdamomma]

75. go forth and multiply

this is over the cliff isn't it? 20 kids???? starting their own army I guess.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

182. This lady needs a math refresher... she's going forth and integrating! (n/t)

[Initech]

80. You'd think at some point a doctor would step in and say ENOUGH ALREADY!

[Nye Bevan]

87. And forcibly sterilize her?

How progressive.

[hlthe2b]

89. How very disingenuous. The poster said nothing of the kind.

A doctor's discussion with the woman to discourage further pregnancies is clearly justified by her most recent very high risk birth and the woman's advancing age. Education and discussion of risks in no way suggests "forceful sterilization."

That is disgustingly disingenuous. You should be ashamed of such tactics.

[Initech]

149. Whoa! Talk about taking it to extremes...

Most doctors could face serious lawsuits and lose their license if that were even remotely attempted. :yoiks:

[Gormy Cuss]

104. It's quite possible that her doctors have counseled her that way.

It's also likely that she and Jim Bob would ignore such counsel as being against God's will.

I do hope that she has a safe pregnancy and good outcome and that this is her last pregnancy. The odds aren't in her favor given her age and the outcome of her previous pregnancy.

[hamsterjill]

107. It's also possible that they pick doctors who they know will agree with them.

My own gynecologist would NOT.

[Gormy Cuss]

113. Probably true for their PCPs, but with the last pregnancy they were probably forced

to deal with doctors outside of that bubble. Based on what I've read that child had lots of medical crises related to the early delivery.

[pstokely]

188. Probably picked some fundy doc

http://www.cmda.org/wcm/

[HughBeaumont]

106. I think after the last near-disaster, doctors have.

And because it was a "near" disaster, it only encourages these two low-info kooks to ignore their doctor's advice completely and branch that family Maple out even FURTHER!!! It's Gawd's Weall!!"

[Initech]

150. The sad thing is religious fundie whackos usually don't care what science says.

[SomethingFishy]

157. You'd think she would say "enough"...

I mean really, what woman wants to spend 20 years pregnant?

[Initech]

159. Exactly! Know your limits! Apparently they have none it seems...

[SammyWinstonJack]

84. How selfish of them both. She almost died the last time. I don't wonder if this is

some kind of mental illness. It obviously is.

[dflprincess]

200. You have to wonder if she has some sort of deathwish or wants to be a martyr to their beliefs.

Per the article at MSN.com tonight, doctors aren't real impressed with their decision to have number 20. I was particularily amused by this comment:

Dr. Nancy Snyderman, NBC's chief medical editor, said that Michelle Duggar's age means her doctors should keep close watch on her pregnancy. "She’s a high-risk pregnancy because she’s 45, and because that uterus can’t have any spring in it anymore," Snyderman said on TODAY's Professionals. "I mean, really, it’s gotta be like a water balloon that has no tensile strength.”

Look at it this way if, God forbid, something happened to Michelle (or she comes to her senses & runs away), Jim Bob could find himself a younger woman and have another 20 kids. I'm surprised they don't decide to embrace polygamy just so he can.

[GreenPartyVoter]

95. May their kids all grow up to be liberals. :^D

[hamsterjill]

100. Hee hee - love that sentiment!!!

Wouldn't that be funny???!!!

[NYC_SKP]

103. Oh snap!

Love that sentiment!

:hi:

[teachthemwell15]

141. Willing to bet at least half of them will!

I'm betting in about ten years there will be a couple of books out by some of the kids recounting the ----reality---- of living under the circumstances they do.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

96. Their right to do this --

and my right to say how disgusting I find it. :puke: Irresponsible, environmentally unfriendly, selfish -- if this one finally kills her off, so be it -- it must be "God's will" instead of their own stupidity.

[Bombero1956]

105. the only way they will stop

The only way they will stop is if Michelle has a serious medical complication that renders her incapable of further pregnancies or the next child has a serious birth defect.

[hamsterjill]

108. The last child has serious complications

I don't think a serious birth defect would deter them. I do think that at some point, MENOPAUSE is going to deter them.

[hlthe2b]

112. Possibly not if she can convince some fundy Xian physician to prescribe

hormones.... I agree that a child born with serious birth defects would not be a deterrent, but rather likely seen as a "test" from God. :shrug:

[hamsterjill]

115. Oh, you're right on the hormones.

I hadn't thought about that. But that would probably go against their "religious" convictions? I don't know.

Yes, I fully concur that the last child (with the serious medical issues) and any subsequent child (with a birth defect) would be seen as a "test". Of course whatever were to happen, it would be justified as "God's will" regardless of the human clumsiness in the advisability of allowing it to happen.

[pstokely]

189. Wouldn't that be playing God?

nt

[Scairp]

178. You're correct

But I really thought she would start it early because of so many pregnancies. Many women who used to have that many because of lack of birth control often stopped ovulating around age 40 or so, and I had hoped this women's body would be like that. Guess I didn't pray hard enough. Oh, that's right, I don't pray at all. Damn, shoulda tried, it couldn't have hurt.

[HughBeaumont]

109. Her last one was born three months premature.

Michelle was rushed to the hospital for gallstones and it was there that doctors discovered she had pre-eclampsia and performed an emergency delivery. Josie weighed 1 lbs, 6oz at birth. A week after the birth, Michelle reported that Josie was "doing as well as can be expected for a baby at her age. We are taking each hour as it comes." On April 6, 2010, after nearly four months in the hospital, Michelle and Jim Bob were able to take Josie to their rental in Little Rock, while they awaited the okay to take her home to Tontitown.<16><17> However, on April 8, 2010, Josie Duggar was readmitted to the hospital after her vital signs dropped. Fortifiers that had been added to breast milk to help her gain weight appeared to be the cause.<18>

If that didn't stop them, NUTHIN' will.

[dana_b]

116. the first scenario they will say is because of God

the second scenario would NOT stop them, imo. They would still say that it is in God's hands. Everything is in God's hands and they are just going along for the ride. :eyes:

[bowens43]

117. can we neuter this woman already?

if ever there was a case to be made for forced sterilization, this it.

[AngryAmish]

132. three generations of imbeciles are enough, no?

[HughBeaumont]

160. Neutering Jim Bob is easier.

He'd have to be sedated and strapped down for that to happen, though.

"Mah mainhuud!! Mah Mainhuud!! AAAAARRRGGGHH . . . . must . . . have . . . more . . . baybehs . . . think uf thuh baybehs!!" as he goes into unprotected auto-hump . . .

[geardaddy]

120. It's interesting that Wikipedia only has a page for Jim Bob and not for Michelle.

It's all about him. All the kid's names start with J. All 19 of 'em. It ain't about her at all. The last four children were all delivered through C-section.

I don't think it's her choice at all.

[JitterbugPerfume]

122. disgusting

[Gregorian]

123. WE NEED A TAX

[Nye Bevan]

148. There is a tax. All of those kids will pay income tax, and social security tax.

And the social security tax that they pay will fund your retirement.

[Gregorian]

153. We need a tax to discourage breeding.

I don't give a shit about my social security. I care about the planet I live on, and the one your kids kids kids will live on.

[RebelOne]

124. They must be members of this group.

Dedicated to providing encouragement and practical help to those who are striving to raise a large and growing, godly family in today's world!

www.quiverfull.com

[geardaddy]

125. Yep, because the kids are just arrows to use as weapons.

[msanthrope]

127. They are--here's a website explaining it, from a former quiverfull victim.

http://nolongerquivering.com/

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. They are

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Quiver full, read on this...and it will make "sense."

[benld74]

134. Tax Exemptions $3700 per child = $66,600 for 18 kids!!!!

In 2011, you can claim a $3,700 exemption for each qualifying child, which may include your child or stepchild, foster child, sibling or step-sibling, or descendants of any of these, such as your grandchild. To qualify for the exemption, the child must live with you more than half of the year and be under 19 at the end of the year, or under 24 and a full-time student for the year (defined as attending school for at least part of five calendar months during the year).

OK Lets say 18 times $3700 because I know they are grandparents

that 66,600 in exemptions from his adjusted gross income!

[ohheckyeah]

137. I brought this up in

July here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1401671.

Got skewered for it.

[BlueIris]

135. I can't believe she is endangering her life again like this.

Then again, after watching the show, it almost seems like she never does any real parenting, just makes the older daughters do all the work. So it's not like she is really abandoning her children if she dies as a result of this pregnancy.

Jesus Christ. No, seriously...JC, send these people a message. "Dear JimBob and Wife...that's enough! Your family is already too grotesquely large to manage effectively. Have done, stop reproducing, enjoy retirement." Make it appear in a soup label or slice of toast if you want. Just tell them they can stop, because the lives of the children they've created are already going to be extremely miserable.

[GoCubsGo]

139. Never mind her life, what about the baby's?

If she wants to put her own life at risk, I really don't give a shit. But, I feel bad for the baby. At this woman's age, her fetus is at risk of all sorts of problems that could condemn it to a life that is far less than optimal. Hell, the last baby was born premature, and the odds are this one could be, as well. That could mean life-long chronic lung problems, learning disabilities, blindness, necrotizing enterocolitis, and all sorts of other problems.

I also feel bad for the female siblings, who have yet one more sibling to raise, whether or not their mother survives this pregnancy.

And, don't get me started on the fact that the World's population surpassed 7 BILLION this week.

[BlueIris]

140. I thought of the baby, too. It is not fair to the offspring to put them at risk like this.

Premature birth is no laughing matter, and what happened to little Josie Duggar is a sad example of how dangerous it can be.

[Catherine Vincent]

142. Oh geeze

Enough already.

[Fire Walk With Me]

151. Does that family have their own zip code?

[stuntcat]

152. what a disgusting century of shame she's giving this last baby

by the time that kid's my age we'll be fighting for water, the oceans will be mostly dead, the forests mostly leveled, the wild animals mostly extinct.

Unless of course Jesus will come back to save them and leave the dirty non-believers to the raped Earth, the planet which has nothing to do with "God" anymore, since we found out it's not the center of the universe.

Yeah, real lucky kid there, special and darling lil #7,000,200,000

[RamboLiberal]

162. They have a new book 20 & Counting

The Duggars: 20 and Counting!: Raising One of America's Largest Families--How they Do It

Sounds like old book with new title.

[BlueIris]

169. "'Raising' One of America's Largest Families"--yeah, right. "Making Our Kids Raise Our Babies"

would be a better title.

[RebelOne]

176. Not quite. My ex-boyfriend told me his grandmother

had 21 children. They lived in the backwoods of the Poconos mountains.

[marlakay]

163. Okay its NOT for the world book of records

I checked and I was in shock that two women one long time ago had 64 in russia, and in chili 62.

Now that is freaking insane…I had no idea!!!!! Hard to even believe it is true.

[saras]

179. Sixty-four?! Surely not one at a time.

[JI7]

187. maybe twins, triplets etc multiple times, i think Duggars had 2 or more sets of twins

[JI7]

168. Disgusting, after the complications with the last Baby Josie

and yeah, i am pro choice and don't want to ban this. but that doesn't mean we can't judge and talk about how disgusting this is.

[Number23]

175. That pretty much sums up how I feel too. She can have as many children as she wants

It is not my place or my damn business to dictate how many children this woman should have.

My only concern is that with the last pregnancy, when I understand both she AND the baby almost died, why she would put herself through this again.

[Paper Roses]

170. Holy whatever, can you imagine the laundry?

I do not see 20 kids as an accomplishment. It is, in my opinion, a drain on all social systems. We will pay for all these, kids, one way or another.
I hope Mr. (twenty kids) has good insurance.
In my neck of the woods, just the cost of schooling this large family would be a drain.
How, in the current economy can they feed and clothe a group this large?

[KamaAina]

171. In other news, the Sun rose in the east this morning

:eyes:

[Mendocino]

172. No cummy, no money.

The show dies without new characters. What a "great husband and father" this guy is.

[cliffordu]

180. Vagina as a clown car???

[efhmc]

190. In the age of overuse of the world's resources,

this is not only disgusting but criminal.

[liberal_mama]

196. What would the world be like if everyone had 20 children?

I used to be mildly amused by the Duggars, but now it's just getting ridiculous. I stopped watching the show after the episode about Josh and Anna's honeymoon. They had a Sarah Palin bumper sticker on the back of their car! ICKKKKK!

[WillowTree]

197. No one's business but hers and her husband's, No one's.

[erinlough]

199. Who gives a s#it

honestly, why is this on the news? I was so angry this morning at 7:00 a.m. when no one was talking about the elections. Why is this family even a news issue? Last moment I'll ever spend thinking about this. sorry just frustrated.

[Doremus]

202. This family uses more than its share of resources and probably contributes little if anything

to society in return.

Those kids are their meal tickets. The older siblings do most of the day-to-day drudgery ... cooking, cleaning, clothes washing.

The parents spend great amounts of their time writing books, planning events and promoting themselves.

The daughters are taught from the earliest age they are subordinate to males, unworthy of careers or to participate in any undertaking more worthwhile than planning what clothes to prepare for next week's photo op.

What's particularly irksome is when JimBob talks about how his girls dress conservatively so as not to cause any innocent males to lose control of their libidos by the mere visage of a bare knee.

I really hate that man and his ignorant, submissive wife. I save my sympathy for their children who will spend much of their adult lives in therapy.

[Occupy_2012]

203. "...the mere visage of a bare knee. "

I laughed when I saw this. Here's the definition I thought of, the more common one:

World English Dictionary, visage (ˈvɪzɪdʒ) —n
1. face or countenance

In other words, a face appearing on the knee. Jesus' face, perhaps? He's been on a piece of toast. However, your usage is also correct:

2. appearance; aspect c.1300, from O.Fr. visage, from vis "face, appearance," from L. visus "a look, vision," from pp. stem of videre "to see" (see vision). Visagiste "make-up artist" is recorded from 1958, from Fr.

I prefer Jesus' face on a knee, though, it's funnier.

Seriously, if you are interested in the Quiverful movement, I highly recommend a website by a woman who escaped them, "No Longer Quivering." There's a section, "Seriously? They Said That?" with infamous quotes from leaders of the movement. They say in no uncertain terms that not only should women with etopic pregnancies not be saved (it's their fault because their body is guilty of the eptopic pregnancy, not the baby's fault), women should not vote, work outside the home, wear pants, laugh loudly, cross their legs, lean back when they drink a glass of water (??), play team sports, touch their husband affectionately in public, ever instruct any man because it's "leadership," or divorce, even if the man is molesting or beating their children.

If a woman with 20 children can't keep up with the dishes, for example, the husband is to make her do them, then look around for some other stuff for her to do to show her she's a failure. If she argues, he is to bring it to the attention of the church elders, which is a big humiliation for himself as well, as it shows he's a failure as a husband and a man, because he can't beat this mule into obedience effectively. This shames the couple in front of the entire church. I guess this explains why Mrs. Duggar has the kids do all the housework. By the standards described on this website, the Duggars actually seem kind of lax.

They also recommend that women with serious pre-existing conditions go into high risk pregnancies, because dying in childbirth is carrying out God's will for women. They tell their followers that etopic pregnancies sometimes work out fine (a lie), so why kill a baby before something bad happens? it's just a statistical probability that the woman might not be able to carry a healthy baby to term in a fallopian tube. It's a 100% statistical probability, but they home school, so who's going to argue?

The advice to the wives of batterers and child molesters is to have him arrested and put in jail, for "10-20 years," as if women get to choose the prison term, and visit him in jail. He will shower you with phone calls and letters because that's what imprisoned men do, and he'll be nice to you when he gets out (at least at first, they admit). By the time he gets out, the kids will be grown and away. Welcome him with open arms. God can claim it as a victory over the devil, because divorce is the work of Satan. Even if he never repents, stay. That makes you a martyr.

There's also a description of marriage as "Violence in a velvet glove" that is apparently much quoted, and marriage being a "war" that separates women forcibly from their parents, friends and dog.

You know, I used to think having 20 kids was the bad part. And no, those kids will never be in therapy, they and the Mrs. are supposed to bend to the "headship" of the master of the house. That means no complaining, it's "unGodly." It does frighten the living hell out of me that this cult can vote. At least the men can.

http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/the-best-of-quotes-from-the-patriarchy-and-patriocentrists/