I'm going to repeat what I said a year ago.

[mmonk]

I'm not going to vote for anyone that will cut those benefits (Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.) in these hard times, especially while tax cuts are in play. That's ZERO. Goose egg. Nada. No chance.

Carry on.

[quinnox]

1. If the Bush tax cuts are again renewed

by the Democrats, that will be the ultimate betrayal.

[mike_c]

3. they will claim to have insulated themselves from the outcome...

...by handing the reins over to the super committee, and that they have no choice but to cut SS, Medicare, etc. And they'll raise taxes on capital gains realized on the third tuesday of any july during which it snows by 0.0001%, in exchange for making the Bush tax cuts permanent and giving every corporate CEO in the country a pony.

[FiveGoodMen]

2. +1

[truedelphi]

4. I am not going to worry about whom it is I am voting for

In 2012 - I clearly remember LBJ's capitulation to the nation's mood back on MArch 15th 1968.

But I do hear your sentiments, and assure you, no one who cuts any of those programs will get a vote from me, even if I have to write in Mickey Mouse on the ballot.

And the best idea I have heard from the Occupy movement is that of getting it underway to have state amendments regarding banning corporate cash from electoral politics. Once we have 25 states aboard, we can push for a national amendment to the Constitution.

I am really sick of having a One Big Money Party political system.

[RKP5637]

5. Same here! "I am really sick of having a One Big Money Party political system." n/t

[thesquanderer]

50. Gov't + Wall St = One Big American Money Appropriation

yes, that spells OBAMA, but it would be the same with anyone else.

Or how about this one?

Our Banks Are More Appreciated.

[BadgerKid]

9. Here's the article on LBJ...

Google: LBJ capitulation

Navigate to the news.google.com link to "LBJ's tax capitulation".

Republican lack of cooperation repeats itself.

[truedelphi]

46. One of the articles that came up

And featured a mini-lesson in the political discourse of LBJ and his attempts to get some tax revenue in to pay for the Vietnam war, without having to cut his soical network budgets:

Historical Perspective: Sacrifice and Surcharge
by Joseph J. Thorndike
Date: Dec. 5, 2005

Full Text Published by Tax AnalystsTM

<snip> At the end of the article these words:
Bush and Johnson

Lyndon B. Johnson and George W. Bush aren't exactly two peas in a pod. Their views of government and society couldn't be more divergent. But this unlikely pair shared an aversion to home-front sacrifice. Each sought to preserve his domestic accomplishments: Johnson his Great Society and Bush his tax cuts (no moral equivalence implied or assumed). While both were fluent in the rhetoric of sacrifice, neither rushed to make that ideal part of the nation's fiscal policy.

But any similarity ends there. Bush has remained implacably opposed to any sort of tax increase -- apparently convinced, as Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, declared in 2003, that "nothing is more important in the face of a war than cutting taxes." Johnson, by contrast, was ultimately willing to face the fiscal music, convinced that unbalanced budgets would undermine not just the war, but his social priorities, too.

[Enthusiast]

41. Me too

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. Same here! I refuse to vote for anyone who approves cutting those programs.

Even if they don't extend tax cuts, those programs should NEVER BE TOUCHED. Durbin....pay attention.

[dkf]

7. Funny how no one says this for education, foodstamps, aid to parents with dependent children, etc.

Used to be grandparents and parents put their kids first, but in this society, it no longer works that way.

[Booster]

10. My Mother died last year and, believe me, if she hadn't had

Medicare and soc sec there is no way I could have provided the money needed to care for her that last year. All the things you've listed are important also but think about if someone in your own family is dependent on these things could you afford to give them what they need, pay for their medical bills, and pay for the home/care also?

[dkf]

14. How can we change our health care system when seniors arent part of the battle?

In a way it's not fair that the part of the population that votes wants to keep what they have.

[Booster]

15. Well, you could look at it like they vote to keep what they have

so that it will be there when you and your family need it. I don't know how old you are, but I'm 68 and paid into soc sec/medicare for over 40 yrs; the system we have in place really works if the people in Wash DC would just keep their greedy little hands off of it. Neither soc sec or medicare are handouts like the Republicans would have you believe. I do understand your concern about our other problems; I am especially incensed about how politicians, especially Republicans, are treating our teachers, firemen, policemen, etc. They act like they should all work for minimum wage until it's their own house that is burning or being broken into. I've never seen my country in such a mess and it worries the Hell out of me, but slashing the benefits of the elderly would affect a whole lot of people, not just the elderly.

[dkf]

16. The elderly get 4 dollars for each dollar kids under 18 get.

20% goes to social security, 23% goes to medicare/medicaid and 20% goes to defense spending. Medicare is increasing every year as far as the eye can see. We aren't investing in the future, we are concentrating on making our retirees comfortable as the rest of the country earns less and less as time goes on.

Tell me how that is sustainable?

I know I get heat for my critique of social security and Medicare but it scares me that more and more of our assets are concentrating on the elderly, including wealth.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

[tomp]

18. we should take care of everyone....

.....and not by punishing any one group.

I have a deal with the gov't. If they want to change that deal, I want my money back.

[dkf]

19. How do you keep promises to a group whose expenses are perpetually increasing?

And whose Medicare benefits are 4 times what they contributed?

It's not that they are entitled to nothing, but that what they are expecting is too much for the system to handle. It's going to come out of someone else's pocket, with workers who have kids and that are more likely to be in poverty being hit the hardest.

[Donnachaidh]

27. want to put them on an ice sloe?

Honestly, this sort of divisive tactic springs from the pukes. Troll.

[russspeakeasy]

32. Please identify your pimp.

[SunSeeker]

53. Single payer, that's how. And using the FDR tax rates!

We have enough money to pay for medical care for everyone. If every other developed country can do it, so can we. I hear you though. It's a scandal how little we pay for our kids. The Republicans only care about them while they are a zygote. And that's who we'd be "voting" for by not voting.

[digidigido]

54. The answer is simple if there is the political will

Single Payer Healthcare
End the Bush Tax Cuts
AMT for Corporations
Tax Capital Gains at the same rate as income

[They_Live]

74. That's right.

These ^

[Vanje]

64. Is that you, Senator Simpson?

[Donnachaidh]

25. and those same seniors spent DECADES paying into the system

I sometimes wonder why some are even on this board -- if not to divide people into fighting factions.

:grr:

Isn't there a bridge somewhere that you call home? :sarcasm:

[tropicanarose]

35. *high fives* you! ITA

[tropicanarose]

37. My high fives were to you, Donnachaidh. I completely agree with you

[Donnachaidh]

75. gotcha hun.

:hug:

[Enthusiast]

42. Seniors need are barely met.

Take it somewhere else.

[JDPriestly]

47. The elderly paid just as much when they were kids.

Don't be ridiculous, DKF. You know better.

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. The depths of your misunderstanding of SS is nothing short of astounding.

Unless you DON'T misunderstand, and are really a xxxxing troll trying to convince Dems to give up on the single most successful social program in US history.

SS scares you? People are often scared by what they don't understand.

[dkf]

17. Here's poverty by age. Look at the kids...it's heartbreaking

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/poverty-by-age/

[jtown1123]

23. Stop using misleading figures to stir up generational warfare. That's what the GOP does.

No one is advocating we cut seniors programs and transfer that money to children. These are just folks that want to cut benefits period. Cry me a river. They never cared about children's programs before and they certainly don't know.

[Donnachaidh]

26. divide and conquer -- such a puke tactic. n/t

[rhett o rick]

30. Consider the source. nm

[SammyWinstonJack]

81. +1000000!

[Enthusiast]

43. Exactly

[RaleighNCDUer]

79. A very misleading chart.

The percentage of adults in poverty is much lower than the percentage of children - that is because for 1 single mother there may be 2 or 3 or more children. It has NOTHING to do with seniors.

But look at that chart again - where does the line for seniors START back before SS was in full swing? FAR higher than any other category - you have no concept of the degree of poverty amomg seniors prior to SS and Medicare.

Childhood poverty has NOTHING to do with SS and everything to do with Reagan's war on the poor - as his policies kicked in, incomes flattened, families fell apart, drug use spiraled and more and more children wound up being supported by a single income and THAT is why the childhood rates are high.

Never mind. Facts have no influence on Randians.

[tilsammans]

90. I had the same experience caring for my mom

If it hadn't been for Social Security and Medicare . . . well, I don't want to think about the horror.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Morning Dew]

8. I agree. And not only for these hard times. n/t

[woo me with science]

11. Yes, and even as he waits for the Super Theft Committee's "consensus" on his safety net cuts,

the Obama administration is busy finalizing a settlement that will let the criminal banks that crashed this economy and left millions in poverty off the hook for an outrageous, insulting 25 billion dollars.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5050521

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[applegrove]

13. Well the GOP will do it then, in the next 20 years when they have a supermajority, and they will

make them all private all the time. That will be a crime.

[bvar22]

20. No Democrat or Republican will vote FOR reducing benefits.

Instead, they will be "forced" to vote FOR the "Comprehensive Package" that Saves our Children.
The "Comprehensive Package" will unfortunately contain some "adjustments" to Social Security & Medicare.
It will also contain some Hostage Crumb that will help a handful of Working Class Americans
that our politicians can hide behind to justify their Sell Out.
THAT is the beauty of the "Comprehensive Package SCAM",
and the REAL Raison D'Etre of the Super Committee.

Then we will, once again, be forced to watch the Prime Time Parade of Weasels as they congratulate each other
for their Heroism & Bipartisanship as they put aside their differences to courageously Save the Children.

Here are some of the Old Favorites we've ALL heard before:

"I am on the record as supporting Social Security,
but I had to vote FOR this "Comprehensive Package"
because I couldn't turn my back on <insert The Hostage Crumb Here>."

"We couldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good!"

"This is a step in the right direction."

"Sausage is messy."

"The Good outweighs the Bad."

"We'll fix it later."

"This is a HUGE WIN for The President."

"This is HISTORIC."

"We know this is a good bill because nobody got everything they wanted."


Are you still willing to with hold your vote under the above conditions?




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[snot]

21. +100!

[FiveGoodMen]

22. "insert The Hostage Crumb Here"

If that isn't a perfect choice of words!

[newspeak]

24. I said I was voting in 2010

and that every one should vote, if the democrats keep the majority, see what they do. But, if they lose a majority in one of the houses, watch the excuses for cutting key programs.

Again, the deficit and the economic condition we are in, to me, was deliberately caused to further distribute wealth to the top, break labor, privatize public org., weaken the social safety net (so the repugs can drown it) and garner more political power to the top against those on the bottom.

[Donnachaidh]

28. +1,000,000,000,000! n/t

[bullwinkle428]

29. At which point, DU will be overridden by the spinniest of spin doctoring!

"ZOMG...DO YOU REALLY WANT PRESIDENT PERRY TO TAKE OFFICE!!11?"

[rhett o rick]

31. I dont understand your last comment. Lots of people arent going to vote that's what the

whole Occupy movement is about. They are not in the streets protesting republicons, they are protesting a system that has failed. There is only one person running for president. The corporatists have insured Pres Obama's victory by running idiots against him. Some think we still have some control in this system, but voting has been suppressed and altered and subjected to massive propaganda campaigns.

Why should anyone vote and lend legitimacy to a system that is rotten to the core?

[bvar22]

40. My comments were about the method they are going to use...

...to avoid having to take responsibility for casting a vote that directly cuts Social Security & Medicare.
After these programs are cut, absolutely NOBODY will have to stand up and say that they voted to cut these programs.
The whole reason for a Super Congress is to give the Weasels in Washington political cover while they do the dirty work for the 1%.
Comprehensive Package. Up or Down Vote. No Changes. Closed Door.


They may have gone to this well once too often.
I certainly hope so.
The people are catching on to the continuous bi-partisan SCAMS.

But after Social Security & Medicare,
there is nothing left to steal. :shrug:
It IS 30 Year Mission Accomplished for the top 1% and their agents running both parties.
It will be a LONG tome before we can get these things back.


Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rhett o rick]

77. Yes sir. I understood and agree with all that. It's the comment "Are you still willing to with hold

your vote under the above conditions?" That I didnt understand. The Occupy movement is a statement against a failed system. I can understand anyone not wanting to participating in the failed system.

[SunSeeker]

51. You not voting is exactly what the 1% want!

Come on people!!! It just makes me sick to my stomach when I read crap like this. If everyone shows up to the polls, they can't rig the system. It will be too obvious. Voting really affects the down-ticket races; it gives Obama a congressional majority and hence the ability to do something.

[rhett o rick]

65. The system is rotten thru and thru. Obama's best pal is Jeff Immelt. Dont you get it? nm

[rhett o rick]

66. The 1% wants me to vote like a good little peon. They rigged the system. We live in an oligarchy,

hello. You think you have Democracy but you dont. Go ahead and vote for a corporatist Democrat if it makes you feel like you are participating.

[SunSeeker]

69. No they don't, that's why they're passing ALEC "voter ID" laws.

Yes, we live in a rigged system. Yes, we live in an oligarchy. But there is a huge difference between a Democrat and a Republican. And maybe if more of us voted, the more progressive Democrats would have a chance to win. The system can't ignore a 70% turnout--which is what you see in other developed, progressive countries. It is pathetic that we only have a 30% turnout. You never hear the right wing fringe telling their members not to vote. ALL the baggers vote.

[rhett o rick]

73. We turned out in mass in 2008 and gave the presidency and congress to the Democrats.

And what happened? What did it get us? Dont you see, the Democrats dont want change. Obama's right hand man is Jeff Immelt. All of his appointees are republicons.
After all I did in 2008 to help Obama, he fired Dean and hired Rahm and a whole shit load of republicons. He doesnt want me vote. He wants republicon votes.

Arent you the least suspicious why the republicons arent running a decent candidate against the president? Think about it.

[SunSeeker]

84. I'm sure glad the folks in Ohio didn't stay home today.

More could have come out in 2008--that would have given Obama a filibuster-proof majority in the senate, which he didn't get and forced him into all those compromises. It's because good people stayed home in 2010 that things got worse. And the Republicans do--or did--think they were running strong candidates. My right wing in-laws just loved Cain--although I haven't spoken to them in the last few days. Thanksgiving should be a hoot.

[rhett o rick]

86. I agree. But you must admit that many are discouraged by the Pres surrounding himself with

conservatives like Jeff Immelt. Will you vote for Pres Obama if he cuts SS and Medicare?

[rhett o rick]

82. Let me ask this. Would you be ok with it if Pres Obama supports cuts to SS and Medicare? nm

[SunSeeker]

87. No. But I'd still vote for Obama over Romney and his voucher plan.

At least Obama won't outlaw abortion or put a neanderthal on the Supreme Court (no offense to neanderthals). By the way, it's looking like a lot of ALEC laws are doing down tonight--thanks to all who voted!

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. You don't get it. A vote for Obama is NOT a vote against the 1%. nt

[SunSeeker]

88. It is if your other option is Romney or any other Republican

Yes, I'd love have Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren in the White House. But it ain't gonna happen. Obama is the best we can do in the near term. Seriously, I'm new here. I've been trying to find a progressive site without a lot of trolls. I thought I found one. But there sure are a lot of people on here trying to get progressives not to vote. Sigh.

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. I'm not saying don't vote. I'm saying don't vote for Repulbican policies

no matter WHO is promoting them.

Frankly we'd be better off with a Republican in the WH - remember when Bush tried to privatize SS? The Dems all lined up against him. What will happen when Obama does it? Half the Dems will go along because it was a Dem plan.

I'd rather have the Dems united against a president's SS privatization than have them split and allowing it to happen because a supposed Dem favors it.

With the stong pushback we're seeing across the country tonite, I'm hopeful that the PTB will get the message and declare that SS is once again the third rail - there is no reason for us to be afraid of, and cater to, the right. Tonite proves it. We CAN kick their ass. So it is in Obama's court. Now, if any time, is the time to say KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF SS. If he still refuses to say that, fuck him.

[SunSeeker]

92. NO we are never better off with a Repuke in the WH

Aaargh. I can't believe you wrote that. You are the first progressive---but not the first troll---to wistfully talk about anything that happened under Bush. That brief moment of Dem spine on Bush's SS scheme hardly made up for the Bush tax cuts, Bush putting all those right wingers on the Supreme Court for life, and the two useless wars that costs us thousands of lives and trillions of dollars and, oh yeah, tanking the economy. I've had it with this thread. Good night.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. So we should cheer when a Democrat extends those tax cuts,

expands those wars and SUCCEEDS in privatizing SS?

OBAMA IS NOT PLAYING ON OUT TEAM!

Understand that, and a whole lot of the last couple years starts making sense.

[a2liberal]

49. What a perfect summary of their standard operating procedure

Thanks!

[hulka38]

67. Outstanding post.

Thanks.

[Love Bug]

71. Wordy, word, word!

A needed extension of unemployment benefits is coming up soon. I wonder on which bill those will become the Hostage Crumb?

[tomp]

89. EXACTLY!!!! nt

[pasto76]

33. Fine, the reality is: Obama or Cain/Palin/Romney

where do you think those benefits will be under even a 4 year republican term.

[pasto76]

34. You all speak about the "war" on the middle class/social benefits/whatever

time for you to take a war time footing to back up your talk! What are you going to do?!


I offer this ages old wisdom of war and battle: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Obama 2012

The man has done good. Congress is fucked. A republican congress is straight up the enemy of regular people, especially my Soldiers.

[rhett o rick]

85. Are you responding to your own posts? nm

[closeupready]

39. Obama is powerless, anyway. So it doesn't matter.

Or so I've been told in threads about health care reform, the WOT, and DOMA.

[BlueIris]

36. K&R. nt

[closeupready]

38. You and me both.

K&R

[mckara]

44. All That is Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.

Edmund Burke warned us of people who take no responsibility for the world we live in today.

[kenny blankenship]

45. People who vote for people who do evil things are doing worse than nothing.

[iamthebandfanman]

58. shhh

youre using logic.

locksteppers hate that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. Will you vote for a Bush tax-cutter?

[blkmusclmachine]

52. New week, new betrayal:

So much for the "New Democrats." Just as moldy and oldy as their wanna-be counterparts in the real GOP. Ditch the DINOs in 2012.

[gateley]

55. Thanks for sharing. nt

[iamthebandfanman]

56. i left one race blank today

when i voted in my state.

it was like choosing if youd rather be stabbed with a fork or a knife ..
so i went with neither ;)

[Paper Roses]

57. Ditto! n/t

[Ino]

59. Topsy-turvy world

I just got ANOTHER huge postcard in the mail today from my REPUKE senator, saying how HE is standing up for seniors and protecting Medicare from Obama's cuts. Blunt is not even up for re-election.

[Vanje]

60. R! Kick!

Carry on

[fascisthunter]

62. Danke! (nt)

[vssmith]

63. Especially not until the $2.5 trillion trust fund is exhausted

And then raise the cap

[WillyT]

68. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[SomethingFishy]

70. Can't argue with that.. K&R

[OneGrassRoot]

72. 110th recommendation :) n/t

[Amonester]

76. Send a copy:

The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500
Please include your e-mail address

Phone Numbers
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: [phone]


Send many copies.

[Horse with no Name]

80. My line in the sand

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Horse%20with%20no%20Name/62