Wall St. Is Out $60 Billion, and We Can Inflict More Pain..

[Luminous Animal]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/07/1034108/-Wall-Street-is-out-$60-billion,-and-we-can-inflict-more-pain

(And if you missed Bank Transfer Day, it is now Bank Transfer Mondays!)


by kosFollow

More consumers flocked to credit unions last month than in all of 2010 combined, likely in part due to the controversy surrounding debit card fees.

At least 650,000 customers opened new accounts at credit unions since September 29, the day Bank of America announced it would charge customers a $5 per month fee to use their debit card for purchases starting in 2012, the Credit Union National Association estimates. If that number holds true, it would be more than the 600,000 consumers that joined credit unions in all of 2010.

That's just October and doesn't account for this weekend's Bank Transfer Day. So what does that mean for Wall Street?

CUNA Chief Economist Bill Hampel said the growth from Bank Transfer Day and the events leading up to it could cause the credit union system to now have more than $1 trillion in total assets.

The industry had $942.5 billion in assets as of June 30, according to the NCUA.

Got that? That's $60 billion out of Wall Street and into non-profit credit unions. That doesn't include non-profit community banks, either. Not bad for a movement "with no message", is it?


Move to a non-profit community bank or credit union. Move your credit card balances to cards issued by same institutions. Move to indexed funds or manage your own portfolio.

....

Enough people do those three things, and you won't see Wall Street laughing anymore.

[kayakjohnny]

1. Thank you for this.

Very much appreciated.

:hi:

[Huey P. Long]

2. recommend.

[banned from Kos]

3. OK - the term "Wall Street" has no meaning anymore. there are 5000 banks in

the USA and just a couple are "Wall St".

For instance, TBTF bank Wells Fargo is not "Wall St.". They are West Coast.

that being said - MOVE your account to a credit union!

[Luminous Animal]

13. People are a lot smarter than you think. The term "Wall Street" is symbolic

for huge financial & corporate conglomerates.

[jeff47]

24. Wells Fargo used to be "west coast"

Then they went on a buying spree.

[Selatius]

27. Wells Fargo is today just as much a conglomerate as Bank of America or Citibank.

At any rate, they're not part of the solution but part of the problem.

[jwirr]

47. I do not have a link but somewhere I saw a graph that shows that

the banks have consolidated into 3-4 major bank chains all related to each other.

[liam_laddie]

62. Reply to #47

Bank consolidations 1990-2009. Topic ID#1899527
Link [www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1899527#1899527

[jwirr]

94. That was it. Thanks. At the age of 70 there are some things my mind

just will not grasp.

[truedelphi]

73. That is probably close to the truth. And the FDIC thing-ee is

Totally punitive - small banks, just like larger banks, are expected to pay ahead of time into the FDIC funds, and when they do that, doing so of course depletes their capital, which means customers cannot go to them and get loans. So the customers go elsewhere, the small banks fold. When they fold, the government lets some other bigger bank buy them up, and then the monies the small banks deposited into the FDIC funds becomes a credit from FDIC to the larger banks!

This was, of course, all carefully designed - the big banks helped craft the legislation that made this pre-paid funding concept the law of the banking world.

[Dover]

82. +1 .... exactly. n/t

[quakerboy]

96. Can you explain further?

On the face, I have a hard time with what you are saying, so I assume I am not understanding something.

Insurance does need to be purchased prior to use, yes? FDIC is insurance, yes? So expecting people to pay their premiums prior to needing to collect does seem to make sense to me.

How is this more punitive to small banks than large? I assume that banks pay premiums somehow proportional to the amount they need insured, am I incorrect?

[cui bono]

55. It's like saying Kleenex when you want a tissue. Nitpicking there. n/t

[SomethingFishy]

75. Actually it has more meaning than ever...

It has become the go to phrase for greed, corruption and corporate malfeasance. And rightly so.

[ParkieDem]

4. I like the Vanguard guy's input.

I've used Vanguard's funds for years and love them - I get returns that are just as good, if not better, than actively-managed funds, and I pay a fraction of what the big banks and brokerage houses charge. This just proves that we can do more than vote at the ballot box, we can vote with our dollars when we do it collectively.

[Xithras]

5. Thanks. I was trying to find somewhere to post this, but I was in my CU this morning...

I had to get a new temporary ATM card and turn in my form to skip my car payment and loan payment next month (yeah, try to find a BANK that will let you skip your payments without penalty during the holidays so you can have some extra spending money...my credit union does it TWICE A YEAR).

Anyway, while I was in there, I asked the service manager how bank transfer day went. She said that they'd had to call in extra tellers to handle the load, and even then they had to turn people away when they closed. "People were still coming to the door more than an hour after we closed." She said they were actually a bit irritated that it had been scheduled on a Saturday, when most CU's close early. When I asked her how many new accounts they picked up, she answered with "hundreds easily". Hundreds. And they're only open four hours on Saturday.

Not bad for a small CU, with only a few branches, deep in "Red County" California. Our local OWS protest may have only pulled four or five people for a few hours, but Bank Transfer Day was a big hit!

[Luminous Animal]

10. Hundreds! That is great!

I hope some of those people who were turned away go back.

[NBachers]

46. I spoke with a woman at my credit union yesterday- she said they were still recovering from Saturday

San Francisco Federal Credit Union- they open 'till 3 PM on Saturdays. She said they were jammed all day long.

[sabrina 1]

86. And the tellers earned overtime.

It's great to see the people finally taking matters that should have been handled by Congress, into their own hands.

And they thought we had 'nowhere else to go'!

[former9thward]

6. The Wall Street Journal today said the large banks are glad to see small deposits go.

It costs them between $400 and $450 a year to service the accounts. They are happy to see them leave.

[whathehell]

7. Sour Grapes. n/t

[Doremus]

8. Then why do they continue to advertise for new accounts?

I've heard the "they lose money on checking accounts" BS line for years now. Usually it's spoken by a hardliner or foaming RWer, but I digress.

They've yet been able to tell me why they continue to spend $$$ advertising for new accounts if they supposedly lose big bucks with every one they bring in.

Any ideas?

[former9thward]

15. I see the Conspiracy Theory people are posting today.

"Usually it's spoken by a hardliner or foaming RWer" . If you have better financial figures than the WSJ why don't you post a link? Or it all hidden to keep you from finding out THE REAL TRUTH? Banks always attempt to get new deposits because they hope you willo use their other services which are profitable.

[Doremus]

23. If banks continue to lure new customers because they hope they will use their other services,

then why would they be glad they're leaving after having spent so much $$$ luring them in the first place?

One of life's little conundrums, huh?


BTW, the foregoing questions have to do with LOGIC and not one tiny little bit with anything related to conspiracies. If you can't answer the questions just say so. It's ever so much more honorable than trying to change the subject. Thanks.

[former9thward]

40. Not a conundrum at all.

Stores spend alot of money trying to lure customers. They don't make money off all of them. Some customers just buy the "loss leaders" and that is it. But they make money off others who buy higher profit products as well. Any food supermarket will tell you that. It is the same principle with banks.

We really should have better economic education in our schools.

[Doremus]

81. Ah, so the $$$ the banks pour into advertising for new customers

is focused on only the few customers who will take advantage of the banks' other services?

Pray tell, if the banks are targeting only *certain* people, surely they can do a better job of filtering out the riff-raff and putting their advertising dollars to better use?

Why would they even waste time and precious money advertising where the proles are likely to succumb to the tempting ad messages? Why not invest their advertising budget more wisely? Why offer 'free' checking, and 'free this' and 'free that' knowing such offers WILL lure the riff-raff?


Not so much a study in the failures of economic education in our schools as it is a showpiece of the stupidity of repuke water carriers.

[former9thward]

90. As usual you are making up things.

I never said a "few" customers. Most customers use other bank services ranging from mortgages to debit cards and credit cards. Look if you or everyone in the country wants to move their money more power to them. I don't care. I don't own a bank or a credit union so I have no dog in the fight. But I do know about the economics. You don't, sorry.

[Doremus]

95. And so we are back again to the original question ....

which is STILL unanswered despite all the machinations, gyrations and obfuscations.


Who woulda guessed. LOL

[truedelphi]

76. Do you really wanna hear the truth. Well by using google,

You can read many an article written during the summer of 2009, to the effect that the banks make around 38 billions of dollars from the poorest of the poor, each and every year in overdraft fees.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-5229590-503983.html (Requires time to sign in and read article)
http://www.onlinequotes.com/banks-profit-big-from-overdraft-fees.php
http://www.newworldorderreport.com/Default.aspx?tabid=266&ID=4605

Economists have noted that the average person who holds a good job ($ 50 K a year or so) bounces maybe one check a year. The most prevalent check bouncers are those who are very poor. When one thing goes wrong, they end up seeing several hundreds of dollars appear as fees on their statement. That one thing can be something as simple as the bank deciding to reverse itself and charge for its 800 service. For most people the two dollars now asked when the person checks their balance is not a big deal, for someone who is almost broke, that can be disastrous.

My household is testament to this. When we both were working, with M. at a good paying job, we bounced maybe one check each and every six months, with a total
of $ 66 in NSF fees for that occurrence.

When we were under-employed, that year we racked up an amazing $ 1500 in NSF charges.

[Luminous Animal]

9. So the WSJ assumes that only small depositers have left?

[former9thward]

14. Large depositors don't have many of the fees a small one does.

I doubt any large depositor left because they would lose the convenience of large banks.

[Luminous Animal]

16. So it is just an assumption.

[former9thward]

18. Of course it is an assumption.

It is an educated one. Assumptions like the ones you are making. I don't know if yours are educated or not.

[Occulus]

17. "I doubt any large depositor left"

In other words, you don't have one single goddamned clue, and you're talking out of your ass.

Meanwhile, at least one Kos diary talks about a withdrawal of a couple hundred grand:

One thing I should probably mention is that my sister is a very successful medical doctor. She makes a ton of money. She also had a ton of money in each of these banks. She decided to close these accounts out of solidarity with OWS protesters.

At Wells Fargo, my sister walked up to the teller and politely asked to close her account. The teller said, "No problem." She pulled up her account and saw the balance and told her that due to the amount she had to speak with the branch manager. The branch manager came out. He was probably 30 years old and was very arrogant. He asked my sister why she wanted to close her account and my sister told him she thought Wells Fargo was part of the problem with the economy. He went thru some talking points about why she shouldn't move her money, but my sister didn't back down. When he asked her where she was going she told him that she would be banking at the North Carolina State Employees Credit Union. She isn't a state employee, but anyone can join if you are related to a state employee. It turns out her husband is. Anyway, the bankster told her "You'll be back. Credit unions can't provide the services you need." We'll see about that. She withdrew over $200k from Wells Fargo.

[former9thward]

20. If you want to go by anonymous anecdotal stories on the internet, go for it.

I'm sure you can find isolated cases of large depositors withdrawing money. And if you want to use those to try and prove some point then you will use anything, made up or not.

[jeff47]

25. And I'm sure you can find one or two times the WSJ has been right in the last 5 years. (nt)

[former9thward]

37. If you invest your money and I do the WSJ is a very good source of information.

Probably the best in the country. I have made alot of money over the years reading their financial articles. I don't get investment advice from discussion boards on the internet. I would be broke if I did.

[SOS]

48. You have been fortunate in your reading

My late father used to say "By the time a stock tip is in the newspaper, it's too late".

[former9thward]

52. Your late father was correct about stock tips.

But I am speaking more about financial trends in various sectors. Those take a while to play out and you can make money off of them.

[jeff47]

63. Yes, it was clearly a great idea to follow WSJ's assertions on housing

...oh wait.

Well, maybe they were correct on recovery....nope.

Perhaps they were right about the financial sector being devastated by "Obama's regulations"....nope.

Ya know, they made a big deal about all those EU recovery plans and how they'd solve the debt crisis....nope.

Well, I'm sure they were correct about Japan and it's lost decade....nope.

There was a time when the WSJ was a good financial tool. That time is long in the past.

[former9thward]

68. Please link to the false stories.

I read the WSJ everyday and I don't remember any of the things you are posting. But you seem so definite so I'm sure you will be able to link to their stories which back yup your claims.

[jeff47]

71. If you couldn't read them when they were in the WSJ, why would you be able to read them now?

Btw, QE2 has lead to hyperinflation, right? Oh, wait, they were wrong on that too.

[former9thward]

89. A non response. How surprising. Not.

[AnneD]

51. I find the WSJ

a day late and always a dollar short. The odds were always in favour of the house, but insider trading and HFT have pretty much left small investors defenseless. I do better doing my own research and god forbid-think outside the box. And thanks to computers, it is much easier to do these days.

[unapatriciated]

33. Well my parents are not anonymous, at least to me.

They transfered over 250 thousand to their local credit union. They are also not isolated. Many in my parents age group - retired union working class - have sizable savings. These savings were due to union pay and the childhood memories of the depression. They are indeed moving their money.

[quakerboy]

99. Using the numbers from the OP

60 billion and 650,000 new CU members. that would be 92k each average.

It ain't only the small ones. In fact, the truly poor are staying with the banks, at least among those I know. My observation is that its largely the people who still have decent jobs, who are moving most or all of their banking to CU's. They are the ones with money to move, with enough cash to notice a difference in savings interest rates, the ones with the time and energy to be pissed over fees and the education to understand they have a choice. And the ones with the resources to go a few miles out of the way to stop at the CU instead of sticking with the convenience the Chase branch inside the local Walmart.

[Turbineguy]

38. Large depositors

have a lot more to worry about than small depositors.

[kestrel91316]

44. How is a large bank any more "convenient" than a small one in the electronic age?

[former9thward]

91. ATMs for one thing. Banks have far more than credit unions.

Bank branches in stores for another. If I have to do any banking business I do it at the same time I'm shopping for food.

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. You surely have heard of these misterious things called ATM networks

My cu is part of one. I have, count them, three in network ATMs within a mile from my house, and my actual branch three miles from my house.

[quakerboy]

100. Not so much

With my CU, I can use the ATM kiosk at any 7-eleven, as well as at most area CU's. And 7-eleven is just about everywhere.

As to in-store branches, the chances are not good you will find the right brand of bank in your store, unless you pick your shopping destinations based on bank branch rather than price, quality, and selection. Which I do not.

[anamandujano]

54. If the banks are looking to make up for -$60 billion, guess where

they are going to look next.

Never underestimate the wrath of a multi-millionaire, who amazingly enough are part of the 99% and don't realize it YET.

Is this something we could call trickle up? Just asking.

[killbotfactory]

11. If that were true, they wouldn't have dropped the $5 a month fee idea. nt

[fascisthunter]

12. sure they did...lol

dumbest thing I have read today.

[Skittles]

26. they are lying

they get a lot of their fees from small accounts

[flpab]

30. screw them

We took our money from Regions, had the free over 50 account for years and now they wanted to give us a 14.00 a month fee and the debit card charge unless we put more into savings, yea right. We went to Navy Federal.

[lunatica]

32. Yeah, all those billions they make a year on nickle and dime fees is such a drag

That's bullshit. I remember quite clearly reading that all those small fees they charged for late fees, or for 'service' fees generate billions of dollars for banks every year. I remember clearly having over a hundred dollars added to my monthly bills which were described as 'service fees'.

The Wall Street Journal is lying.

[former9thward]

36. Then you will post a link to the real number I'm sure.

Or is everyone lying?

[lunatica]

61. I'm sure you can find the if you want to

[former9thward]

92. Try a complete sentence next time.

[truedelphi]

74. The Wall Street Journal relies on ad$$ from the Big Banks

For its existence, so of course it is lying, er, spinning the truth. (The big companies prefer the words "Spin," Over the word "lies.")

And in any event, the number regarding the profitablilty of the charges was 38 billion dollars. Like you say, a person can google to find it, but often the sort of person who keeps pestering doesn't want the link, they just want to hassle another DU'er.

[cyberpj]

35. Uh-huh. All those small accounts from which they 'earned' the majority of their fees. nt

[peace frog]

39. GOOD. We are happy to leave them

I love the smell of arrogant, entitled a@@holes in the mmorning.

[kestrel91316]

43. I don't see how it could possibly cost them that much for piddly little accounts

like mine. They don't DO anything. It's all basically electronic except for when I walk in to deposit two checks a month. Oh, and a statement gets sent out. But all my checks come back just copies, not the original paper. Bank processing is ALL electronic now.

I betcha $400+ per year is just one more BIG LIE.

[former9thward]

45. The article said it costs credit unions about $150-$200 a year to service checking accounts.

But maybe that it a lie too. Nobody is posting a link to the REAL NUMBERS. I guess that is more of the cover up.

[Grown2Hate]

49. Yet I haven't seen you post ONE link yet... hmmmmm...

[former9thward]

53. Hmmmmmmm. Here it is.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203733504577021972358085822.html?KEYWORDS=credit+unions+poach+clients

[Grown2Hate]

57. Awesome, thank you! Couldn't have proven the point better with the title of the

article from that fucking rag ("Credit Unions Poach Clients").

Poach (verb) -

1. to catch (game, fish, etc.) illegally by trespassing on private property
2. to encroach on or usurp (another person's rights, duties, etc.) or steal (an idea, employee, etc.)
3. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Badminton) (Individual Sports & Recreations / Tennis) Tennis Badminton to take or play (shots that should belong to one's partner)
4. to break up (land) into wet muddy patches, as by riding over it, or (of land) to become broken up in this way
5. (intr) (of the feet, shoes, etc.) to sink into heavy wet ground

1. To trespass on another's property in order to take fish or game.
2. To take fish or game in a forbidden area.
3. To become muddy or broken up from being trampled. Used of land.
4. To sink into soft earth when walking.
5.
a. To take or appropriate something unfairly or illegally.
b. Sports To play a ball out of turn or in another's territory, as in doubles tennis.
v.tr.
1. To trespass on (another's property) for fishing or hunting.
2. To take (fish or game) illegally.
3. To make (land) muddy or broken up by trampling.
4.
a. To take or appropriate unfairly or illegally.
b. Sports To play (a ball) out of turn or in another's territory.

SO... which definition do you think they were going for? FUCK THE WSJ. No better than the New York Post or any other Murdoch piece of shit, elitist rag.

[former9thward]

60. I posted a link to the numbers which some, maybe you too, think are made up.

If there are better numbers out there someone should be able to link to the correct ones. The internet is a vast place. Unless EVERYONE is in on the COVER-UP.

[Grown2Hate]

79. I don't think the numbers are made up. Perhaps they are accurate.

But when I see an article titled so antagonistically, so arrogantly, so OBVIOUSLY slanted... yeah, it makes me question the source. The numbers can be right all they want. The Wall Street Journal is still a fucking piece of shit for elitist fucks, either way. You know, kinda the way Fux News is suspect because of how they slant everything.

[former9thward]

93. I don't read the WSJ for its politics. I read it for financial information.

[jeff47]

64. You're quoting an article that can't use mean or median properly.

And the cost comes from an industry-funded group designed to justify high bank fees...and that stat is presented without bothering to explain how BofA manages to blow $450 a year per checking account.

Of course, such massive incompetence could help explain why BofA is doing so poorly now.

[former9thward]

67. People seem to have trouble with the numbers.

But no one seems to be able to link to better ones. Hmmmmmm

[jeff47]

70. Would you feel better if I pulled some numbers from my nether regions and then linked them?

It's not like your numbers have any data backing them up.

People with real numbers will show their math. People who have made up numbers will trumpet the 'result' of their analysis and not be willing to show any data. Guess which group your numbers come from?

[former9thward]

88. Guess what group your numbers come from?

Oh, that's right.

[Paper Roses]

66. Somehow I think the costs are baloney.They invest our dollars

into profitable endeavors. One way or another, we lose and they win.
All for switching to a small local bank or a Credit union.
Did so years ago and am happy I did.

[aquart]

78. Wonderful. Then we are all happy.

Like those greedy bastards have ever been willing to let go of a penny. Puhleeze.

[Deep13]

83. Then we're all happy. But...

Service the accounts? I guess it's a lot of work to have numbers recorded in a computer. If small accounts are so expensive, why are little banks and CUs so happy to get them?

[quakerboy]

97. They make it back on fees

Or they would quit doing it.

A few overdrafts and a late fee, there you are.

If they didn't make money on it, They surely wouldn't be offering $50 to $150 signing bonuses for new accounts. Over and over. In the weekly junk mail flyer with adds for direcTv, Pizza hut and grocery outlet.

[sarcasmo]

19. Kick ass numbers.

[Matariki]

21. 'Not bad for a movement "with no message", is it?'

Woot! Love it!

[Luminous Animal]

22. Nice!

Since I've been advocating that Bank Transfer Day be a prolonged campaign. I am pleased to see that it is now Bank Transfer Mondays. Maybe we can double that number over the next couple of months.

[Fire Walk With Me]

28. Awwww yeah. K&R.

[RainDog]

29. k&r

people need to think about ways they can make money apart from a corporation, too. how can you be a business person in your own community? how can your business enhance your community?

I'm glad to see the numbers!

[Fumesucker]

31. K&R

[cyberpj]

34. Next target - all companies giving multi-millions in CEO pkgs? Stop supporting those companies!

That's what crossed my mind wheN posting the article about $100 million CEO retirement packages this morning!

BOYCOTT.

[valerief]

41. It also doesn't account for those of us who've done it since 2008.

Woo hoo!

[Eatacig]

42. The next step!!

:o The next step should be 401 K's. So many people are prisoners to Wall Street because they were fooled into putting so much money in their 401Ks.People can still save for their retirement. Just save your money until you have enough, buy a CD that is an IRA. The interest may not be as high but its guaranteed. You can still deduct what you put in from your Taxes.

[RedCloud]

50. Organize consumer boycotts! Yeah baby!

[Historic NY]

56. Hey looky there the 5200 checking account stat comes from the same group........

http://www.raddon.com/

[jtuck004]

58. Uh, household net worth lost $11 TRILLION dollars in 2008,

here, so in the grand scheme of things, $60 billion in retail accounts isn't that large, and it isn't going to put anyone to work without costing someone else a job. It's not going provide food stamps or heating for the winter for people without depriving others.

I'm glad people are doing it, they may fare better in our current savings and loans. It wasn't that long ago that we jailed a thousand of these S&L people for stealing people's money, so that is not a sure thing...

But when everyone is through slapping themselves on the back over this, there will still be 25 million people looking for a job, no one facing criminal charges for the 2 million cases of fraud documented by the FHFA, and they are still robo-signing to facilitate foreclosures and about to sign a settlement that relieves them of any criminal charges for past and FUTURE events.

Don't fool yourself. Behind the glass, that's Wall Street doubling over with laughter.

[Grown2Hate]

80. You're SO right. Fuck doing ANYTHING. Let's all just kill ourselves.

:sarcasm:

[jtuck004]

87. LOL. Well, let me know how that works out, ok? Meanwhile, the rest of us

have real work to do.

[watajob]

59. K&R

[leftyohiolib]

65. how long before corprate america's puppets will start crafting "special" regs on credit unions

[CoffeeCat]

69. I will be inflicting soon...

I couldn't move our $ to a credit union before, but I plan to in November. I've just
got to convince my husband to do it.

[closeupready]

72. Diane Sawyer told me people are sick of all this. She wouldn't lie, would she, so

I'm sure you're wrong. :sarcasm:

[Ricochet21]

77. K&R

[WillyT]

84. Woo Hoo !!! - K & R !!!

:bounce::woohoo::bounce:

:yourock:

:hi:

:kick:

[Marnie]

85. Apparently the WS guys slept through that MBA class that

explained that when a country or a world has no functioning economy, or even just a badly crippled one,if your wealth exists only in paper translations or the Ethernet, whose value is based solely on faith, and mythical cash flow, then you will end up just about a broke and hungry as the next guy.

Do you actually own your 20M dollar estate, your 50K car, you 2M yacht? If not then you are totally dependent on the world's economy churning along like it was at whatever point in time its cash flow was sufficient to float your loans for you.

History always repeats itself. So my suggestion to the WSers is to go jump out you 20th floor window now so the rest of us can get on the the task of trying to fix the shit pile you created.

Go for it. You won't feel a thing.