I'm concerned with some of the OWS pictures I've seen. They're not sending the right message.

[HopeHoops]

There was one with people dancing on an American flag. The flag isn't the problem here. Another I saw looked like a fucking Spring Break party picture. I agree with the purpose, and the message most protesters are sending, but if it becomes an excuse to party and play Mardi Gras, the entire effort is undermined. Some people have good intentions but no common sense.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I wasn't born in this country. I also lived in two other countries aside from this one.

What I DO NOT UNDERSTAND, is what this false patriotism about the flag is. And it is false patriotism. If people WANT to be patriotic, they will stand for whatever is good for CITIZENS, not a piece of cloth. I DO NOT GET IT.

Other countries don't engage in false patriotism. We've got to stop this myth about the flag, and start having TRUE patriotism, patriotism in which the #1 priority is our fellow citizens, not a flag pin, not a piece of cloth, not songs.

[kickysnana]

2. +1000

As I said to my late friend from India, Americans are just sooo stupid and I do live here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Americans have been led into false beliefs that worshipping a flag pin is patriotism nt

[HopeHoops]

11. The flag lapel pin "mandate" is disgusting.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. It sure is! It's pure bs. nt

[ieoeja]

93. Especially since the flag lapel pin was reserved for military veterans.

Newt Gingrich noticed that most Democratic congress-critters were wearing them while most Republicans were not. So he decided to violate the custom and suggested other Republicans join him.

Undoubtedly, many people assumed Newt was a military veteran. And Newt had to know. Which means he was de facto pretending to be a veteran.

Which is why my dad was disgusted by Newt's action re the flag lapel pin.

[Kahuna]

26. I agree that worshipping the flag is false patriotism, and it's blasphemous

to boot. However, the majority of Americans don't feel that way, and take great offense to disrespect of the flag. I witnessed all the good will of the protests of the 60s go down the drain because of violence and flag burning.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. I think American priorities are f'd up. We need to START being patriotic about citizens....

and stop the symbolic crap.

[Kahuna]

41. That may all be true. But for right now, we have to deal with what is, not

with what we want it to be.

[TBF]

83. I have no problem with dealing with "what is" - and to me that says RESIST

don't keep propping up this crappy system that only benefits the very few at the top.

[Art_from_Ark]

166. Good luck with that

Flags have been an integral part of the American psyche since at least the Revolution



They were an extremely important rallying point during the Civil War

"Their flag is just a rag
Ours is the true one
Up with the Stars and Stripes
Down with the new one..."



And of course, the National Anthem of the United States is all about an American flag that withstood a night of bombardment

"Oh, say does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave
O'er the Land of the Free, and the Home of the Brave?"

[leftynyc]

106. Do you really see

NO difference between worshipping the flag and not wanting to watch people dance all over it or burn it? REally? No difference?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. None. You tell me why a citizen represented by the flag cannot dance on it.

I'm waiting.

[Javaman]

126. +1 nt

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

131. Bad 'optics?' BAD OPTICS? What on earth are you talking about? nt

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Media narratives

Juxtapose this



With that photo of dirty hippies dancing on flags like them unamerican dirty, drug addled hippies used to do.

I will add another data point to you...countrielpro

Yes, bad optics, but I am willing to bet dime on dollar that whether this happened at an actual OWS or was created for the occasion, it really does not matter. Those in power feel threatened and that photo of a sitting POTUS should tell you all you want to know.

[leftynyc]

147. You can post that picture all day long

and it'll mean absolutely nothing in terms of OWS. But since it makes you feel better to use the childish "they do it too" argument, feel free to knock yourself out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. It's not they do it argument

Far more profound. Go find the army field manual on counterinsurgency and read on contrielpro. You are being manipulated...

[HopeHoops]

6. It is more a matter of showing disrespect toward it. The flag IS important here.

Yes, there's a shitload of false patriotism, but protesting about what's wrong with this country while dancing on the flag just isn't sending the right message. It simply gives the other side ammunition to attack the movement with an isolated incident by a few who just don't understand the real reason they are protesting.

Putting a flag-style ribbon on the back of an SUV, window-mounted flags that are tattered and torn, wearing flag-themed shirts - that's false patriotism.

[Cal Carpenter]

13. Perhaps you should stop doing 'the other side's' job for them n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. Fine. Some people like fairy tales, and ignore reality.

The flag is a fairy tale if there's nothing to back it up, and there isn't. The well-being of citizens has been ignored. What is a country? A piece of cloth, or people? With that, I rest my case.

[bigtree]

75. this country isn't a 'fairy tale'

There's plenty to love and cherish about this country. I think you're probably confusing government with country. Our history isn't any more of a 'fairytale' than any other nation. The country is made up of a majority of fine folks who all have something positive and important to contribute. Our American flag is a representation of our union of states, but it's also a banner of our nation as a whole. In our history, there have been triumphs, tragedies, and atrocities. We are the sum of all of that, no doubt. I'd take exception, though, if you were to suggest that that sum is somehow so corrupt or decrepit than to deserve some respect for all who have worked and contributed to make it a better place to live; with a great deal of success, I think, on a great many levels. I wouldn't leave out the positive contributions citizens of this country have made (are making) the the preservation and promotion of the general health, safety, and welfare of folks beyond our borders (that beneficence notwithstanding the negative effects in places where we've overstepped our bounds).

I don't agree with the broad brush you paint America with. Your interpretation of our nation and the history represented by our flag is slanderous, nonfactual and incomplete.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

79. "There's plenty to love and cherish about this country." You bet: ITS PEOPLE

Worry about them, and you'll be a patriot.

Stop the symbol-obsession.

[bigtree]

87. we can worry about people and respect the flag

that's not hard to do.

Again, respect for the flag is often about more than just patriotism or politics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. The point I am trying to make is that the people have been raped, destroyed, hurt...

And all while worshipping the flag. So please, lay off the flag-worship a bit, and worry for ONCE about the citizens it represents, because, honestly, that is ALL the flag represents, people. It represents NOTHING ELSE. Again, if this land were empty, there would BE no flag. It only represents people.

[bigtree]

113. worship is your word and interpretation

Different Americans have different reasons for admiring and respecting our flag.

All of this worry about the 'people' talk and not a wit of care about their own feelings about our nation's most recognizable symbol.

Again, we can both respect and love our flag (if we want to) AND respect and cherish our people. We often do.

You have no bearing or right to tell anyone what the flag should mean to them personally. It could just as well symbolize to them the overcoming of the atrocities you're dwelling on. It could represent some positive contribution or attribute as well.

Who are you to say what it represents to them?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

117. I will not continue with this discussion of the flag as if it were a human being, which it isn't. n

[bigtree]

120. that's your very own juxtaposition

not mine

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Actually what we teach to kids

Is quite a bit of myth. US history is quite more complex than the yes, fairy tales we teach kids. We're not alone...all nations teach what best passes for myths, but it's best to be aware of it.

[bigtree]

90. we teach kids many things

Yet, most come to love and cherish their country, despite becoming aware of its shortcomings and wrongness at times. Not surprising. There's much in this country to love and cherish.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Yes, but a lot f what kids get attached to (insert nation here)

Are foundational myths. This is not exclusive to the US.

[bigtree]

12. it doesn't have to be about 'patriotism'

It is a symbol. It provides more than bravado or political gratification. For many immigrants, the American flag was a beacon of hope. For some expatriated or absent Americans abroad, it can be comforting reminder of home. For others, it represents the promise and opportunity of our united states.

Even the protestors in their desecration theater recognized the importance of that symbol to many Americans. It is just a piece of cloth or material, but it can also hold great sentimental value for folks who find things to love and cherish about this country -- not unheard of.

[pipi_k]

19. Thank you...

We have an American flag on the house.

We also have two other flags on the barn.

The flag of Scotland for Mr Pipi, and the Canadian flag for me.

I don't know how Mr Pipi feels about his flag, but when I see the Canadian flag, it's not about patriotism toward Canada. For me, it's about imagining the struggles of my ancestors...both French and First Nations...whose life stories helped to make that country what it is today. Good and bad. It reminds me that I'm not just an American...I'm also Canadian...and French...with a bit of Portugese way way back...and a bit of English and Dutch as well.

Same as the American flag. We're all children of the world, whether it's one generation ago, or five, or twenty. It just happens that we're all gathered here under some stars and stripes that represent all of us.

Symbol of our struggles as a nation...

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. You know. What I find ironic

When I took that oath as a citizen the flag that the federal government provided was made in china. Probably the pocket constitution too. I carry that document down to OWS. I leave that flag in the drawer.

Here, this is what's going on, so basic it's always astounding how folks fall for it. It's like we never learn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2254265

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. It'd be a heck of a lot better if their sentimentality involved the people in this country.

A country is not a piece of cloth. A country is its people. As long as we focus on the piece of cloth, some songs, and a flag pin, we'll continue to screw the majority and help the 1% get more of what should by right belong to the people.

[bigtree]

60. how do you know

what folks' sentimentality involves?

Again, the flag represents much more than just politics to many Americans. It also, ironically, represents your right to object to it and treat it any way you see fit. That doesn't automatically shield anyone from the reactions of some Americans against defacement or disrespect of the flag (that right to dissent also symbolized by the banner). That's what folks are getting at when they say that some Americans might object.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Tell me how do you feel bout this one

Second part, why did the media, particularly fox, did not go off rail?

A good part of the answer as to what is going on is there.

[bigtree]

84. I'm not one who is bothered by such things

I do respect the views of others (most Americans) who abhor desecrating the flag for any purpose. I did sew some pieces on some jeans in my youth. I'm not likely to deliberately destroy or deface a flag for anyone's edification these days, though, including my own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. But the media did not go off rail

Did they? Imagine if instead of bush that was Gore. Then connect dots to countrielpro. This is so damn basic I am amazed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

71. If it involves being sentimental about a piece of cloth, and NOT about the citizens it represents...

it's misguided, fairy-talish, illogical, and shallow as hell.

[bigtree]

98. who's to say that Americans can't respect the flag AND our citizens?

You speak of our country (and flag) as if its totality resides in the government you oppose. Our nation is much deeper and broader than that myopic view of yours.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

104. Never mind. You're stuck in your symbol, and by golly, it's what you love the most. nt

[leftynyc]

114. No - that's not it

You seem to not be able to grasp that one brain can both concentrate on the American people's problems AND still not want to watch people trash the flag. It's simple really, try it. Your dismissal of other's opinions reminds me of the teabaggers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

116. You are stuck in the obsession that the flag is a human. It isn't. Now I'd rather not continue

discussing the flag as if it were as important as the human beings in this nation of ours, because IT is not.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

118. I actually don't have much of an emotional attatchment to it

Many Americans, however, do, and I respect and understand many of their sentiments.

And again, stranger, who the hell are you to tell me what I believe and care about?

[StarsInHerHair]

163. for OWS they should use crocheted or knitted flag blankets, not made in China

ones

[pipi_k]

18. I was taught from a very young age

to respect the flag. Not for what it is, but for what it represents.

So when I see people stomping on, pissing on, or otherwise desecrating the flag, I feel very uncomfortable inside. And it's NOT from "patriotism". Because I'll tell you what...at times, I can be just as critical/cynical about this country as anyone else.

My father was a cynical man, it's true, but he did teach us kids to respect many things and many people.

And so I'll just say, so what if some people DO have a "false patriotism" associated with the flag? Does it really cost anything to show a little respect toward something that some others love?

I mean, why don't we all just run around defacing things we believe others have too much feeling invested in? Take a Bible and use the pages for toilet paper. Grab a Qur'an and drag it through a pig sty. Oh, what fun!

:eyes:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. How about, did your family teach you that it was FAR more important to respect the citizens?

Because let me tell you, if this country were empty of people, there would be no flag pins.

Flag pins represent the PEOPLE. Without the people, the flag is crap. We've lost sight of that, and now only the flag pins are worshipped and idolized.

[pipi_k]

140. As I said in my previous post....

My father taught us kids to respect things AND other people.

Growing up, we were taught in school to respect the flag as well.


I almost feel like I should have to apologize for being taught to respect things and people, and for learning it as well as I did.


In any case, and as far as I know, the OP isn't about flag pins, which, also as far as I know, aren't subject to the same rules of etiquette as flags are.

It's about people dancing on flags, which is disrespectful to a whole lot of people, many of whom don't deserve disrespect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Oh other countries engage in this prayer to the flag

But fully agree with the sentiment.

[WinkyDink]

56. Really?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. What your response tells me is that you don't care a rat's ass about reality...

You're stuck, fixated, and refuse to come out of your history book, and whatever happens today is of little importance to you. Today is inconsequential. Reality matters little to you. You want your symbols, your past, and hey, that's all you need. Cool. Ignore reality. Ignore today. Keep your brain in the past, and wrap yourself in symbols all you wish.

[StarsInHerHair]

164. that's why they're on my iggy list

[geardaddy]

137. I agree with you on the flag stuff. It is false patriotism, but Americans

are hardly exceptional in false patriotism.

[Rabblevox]

153. I WAS born in the US, and I don't understand it either...

it seems, in this country, it is easy to confuse flag-waving with patriotism, and equally easy to confuse "patriotism" with democracy, equality, or civic duty.

Our nation was born out of a brilliant idea. I'm a military veteran, and consider myself both a patriot and an activist. What passes for patriotism is in most cases "jingo-ism" and flag-waving.

I have never burnt, pissed on, or trampled the American flag (some habits just run too deep), but I swear to the gods, goddesses, and the universe in general that I will defend the right to do so.

Democracy is not easy, or cheap, and sometimes it means standing up for things you don't care for.

[Jumping John]

3. Maybr you could go there and become part of their GA and speak your concerns. nt

[coalition_unwilling]

15. Best response ever! - n/t

[bemildred]

5. So free speech and people having fun bothers you? nt

[HopeHoops]

9. Not a bit. It is the mixed message that's the concern. If they let it become a joke, that's all...

...it will ever be. I walked 10 miles from College Park, MD to DC for the 20th anniversary gathering in honor of Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s famous speech. I would classify that one as respectful and with solidarity for the message. We even cleaned up after ourselves and others on the way out. We weren't there to party.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Become a joke to who?

Become familiar with counter insurgency tactics. The media is really working on you.

[HopeHoops]

42. "to whom" - grammar police!!!! You're busted! And I don't watch TV.

I catch clips here and there on the net, but I don't have cable and haven't even tried to use broadcast in at least ten years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You still fell for it

Classic anti insurgency.

And whatever on the grammar police.

[HopeHoops]

44. Ah, but did you know where the aardvark hid his Izod polo shirts?

Sorry, that was just the dumbest thing I could think of.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. This s why this is dumb

Tell me when did print or other media go bonkers over this...not random kid, but sitting POTUS.

[HopeHoops]

47. Damn that picture pisses me off.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Good, but fox did not go off the rail

That's the point.

Counter insurgency tactics involve infiltrating and staging as well. Can't prove it but kid with commie flag t-shirt, that is new and has creases looks like plant. And while there will be some kids doing this at OWS a lot of that, is media manufactured.

That's the skinny. Be aware 'cause you will see more of this courtesy of the usual suspects. Countrelpro never truly go away.

[HopeHoops]

64. The president defacing the flag is pretty bad, but one of my FAVORITE pictures is....

The one of the shrub holding the flag backwards (star field on the right) and Jenna looking at him like "Daddy, what the fuck are you doing?"

That was taken right before the ones of the secret service having to help in out of the bleachers because he was so fucking drunk he couldn't stand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. But that's not the point

Look at media narratives.

Dirty hippies (no that's not accidental) dancing on flag ran on page one above fold denver post. This ran inside all papers and when people went wtf over...it was ignored.

There is a reason, if you must find the field manual on anti insurgency tactics. It does not matter what this insurgency does...the media will force that caricature on them. It s so damn basic that at this point I expect it, manufactured or otherwise, and I don't fall for it. FYI. Here locally we had supposed tape of dog playing with flag. Well that did happen, but it was staged. It took some freeze frame to find out a parking lot that should be there was not there.

That was three weeks ago. You tell me how much more staging will happen?

[HopeHoops]

80. Are Muslim lesbian communist liberal terrorist really behind the OWS movement?

FOX has an exclusive...

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You joke, but I expect it

With some tape of dog playing with flag.

[HopeHoops]

85. And smoking pot while reading the Communist Manifesto and the Qu'ran at the same time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. In your joking I think you finally got it

[HopeHoops]

96. Perhaps, but giving them material they don't have to Photoshop is not helping.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. For all I know it was

Or it was Breitbart staging it.

That's the problem these days.

[HopeHoops]

101. 1984

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Exactly.

[HopeHoops]

110. I was assigned to read it in the late 70's and refused because I didn't want to pollute my vision.

I promised the teacher I would read it in 1985 and was given an alternate book assignment. I bought it the first week of January 1985 and read it in one session. Damn was that a freak-out. Well, to be fair, I was also stoned all to Jesus at the time. It is so much more relevant now than it was then. So is Animal Farm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Yup, but once you are aware

It's easier.
With the crap Breitbart pulled with acorn, it would shock me in the least to find his, or equivalent hands, behind that photo. It has some really goofy, even cartoonish, elements to it.

[HopeHoops]

119. Yeah, and that kid who tried to fuck up NPR - damn, what's his name?

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. There you go, why outrage is best left to the side

The RW noise machine NEEDS this. They will get it, either at an actual OWS encampment, or will create it themselves. By the way at my local we don't have flower children.

That was my first hnt.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. But that would be you ridiculing someone else. The flag represents those that stomped on it....

and the message is, THIS clearly does not represent me, because this has turned into an oligarchy, and I, a citizen, no longer count. ONLY the citizens represented by the flag, may stomp on the flag if they're angry.

[Cal Carpenter]

7. Everyone at OWS could spend 99.999% of their time

on study groups, teach-ins, meetings, and other serious organizing activities, and the pics that would show up in the media would be from the other 0.001% of the time.

Or 99.999% of the people could do everything that *you* would approve of (ahem) and the pics in the media would show the other 0.001% of people.

Common sense would tell you that.

Not to mention a 24/7 protest requires a little time of letting loose. I only spent a few days at OWS but on the third day I danced. I danced my ass off to those drums. I looked ridiculous, I didn't care. People took pictures, they probably ended up online where some conservatives could make fun of me and I don't give a shit.

[pipi_k]

22. It's not the dancing that's the problem...

It's the dancing on the flag that sucks.

Just like dancing on the Bible or the Qur'an would be a problem.


You don't take something that holds symbolic meaning for lots of people and disrespect it.

PS..I am in no way religious, but even I would not disrespect a book of Faith...not from anger, not even for the sake of "having fun".

There is no need for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Shh here is what's going on

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2254265

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. Okay, it's the usual right wing 'BEWARE OF THE COMMIES' bullshit again. I'm SO TIRED of that shit

I can't even tell you how f tired I am of the Commies versus U.S. bullshit.

Why the hell are some people still stuck in the 1950s? They need a shrink.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Cause it works...

But now they will modify it to them lazy, antimurican, al qaida terrorists.

For the record red baiting in the US precedes Marx. The first of that happened in the 1820s.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

74. Evidently. What gets me is that there are still Americans around with that McCarthyist mentality

They need a shrink, really they do. Joseph McCarthy may as well be alive, and they may as well be applauding him, that's how obsessed they are.

[Cal Carpenter]

32. Wow

So the flag is akin to a religious text. US 'patriotism' is like a religion, based on faith. That's terrifying.

Perhaps therein lies the problem. Politics and nationalism as a belief system rather than a set of real policies with real effects in the real world.

Focusing on symbols rather than reality is the problem. Doing more of it ain't the solution.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Alas to some it is

We have a name for it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

62. It IS scary, and that's exactly how the flag has been used: as if it were a religion.

Symbols are bullshit. The human beings in a country are what matters. I don't get the flag lapel pin bullshit, really I don't.

[Cal Carpenter]

69. Yep. And if we are seeking significant, lasting change

we need to let go of the faith-based illusions we have about our country, it's founding, it's alleged 'ideals'. We can't move forward without first recognizing the truth about how we got to where we are now, how our current conditions developed.

There are a lot of people who are scared of this, and they aren't the ones the OP may think they are. In fact, the OPs use of 'they' is quite telling.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

76. The symbols have sunk us long enough. We've allowed the abuse of human beings because of symbols

I'm sick of it.

[pipi_k]

141. I never said it was anything close to religious text...

I am making a comparison between the acts of desecrating something other people value.

If someone puts a value on something, the ACT of someone who disagrees with that person's perception of value...desecrating that thing...is nasty and childish.

[Cal Carpenter]

159. "Just like dancing on the Bible or the Qur'an" --pipi_k

:shrug:

If that person's 'value' on a symbol is tied up in so much emotion and irrationality, and if that person cannot discuss it in an intellectually honest way and instead makes charges about other people like 'nasty and childish', then the conversation is not worth having.

The last word is yours.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. What does the flag represent? It represents CITIZENS. If a citizen is mad, they can stomp on it.

So frikkin' what?

I need to know a little more about this flag-obsession in depth, really. I'm not GETTING IT.

[metalbot]

134. If you don't get it, you're being intentionally obtuse

The flag is a symbol. It's an important symbol to many Americans, on both sides of the political aisle. For those who have served in the military, it's an extremely important symbol.

When you desecrate a symbol, expect people to get mad. Making people mad at you is rarely constructive when you are trying to enlist their help.

[Cal Carpenter]

138. Symbols like the American flag

have resulted in killing millions in the name of freedom. Sorry if I am stepping on sacred territory (pun sort of intended) but until we are HONEST about what these symbols allow our government to do to people in other countries and our own people (including those in uniform who are forced to kill and die to protect the interests of the uber-wealthy) we will NEVER move forward.

Emotional reactions to symbols justify terrible things.

It's about time we start looking at things differently. Honestly. Openly. Truth hurts but more of the same bullshit isn't the answer.

Isn't it time we get past this infantile emotional reactionary crap and move on?

Fuck the media, fuck the 5% of the population who may write off this movement for daring step on a symbol - those people were never gonna be moved anyway.

[metalbot]

167. I think you'll find that it's far more than 5%

The American flag is an important symbol to a LARGE spectrum of Americana.

Desecrating a flag is simply inviting a wide range of scorn from both sides of the political aisle, and is counter productive to any political movement that wants to effectuate actual change in the US.

I support firmly someone's rights to desecrate an American flag, but expect me to assert my own freedom of speech to call them an ass for doing so. Expect most of America to do likewise, because that's reality.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

143. I'm not obtuse. I'm quite aware that the symbols have replaced the citizens.

And that must not be allowed.

[metalbot]

168. So you get it, or you don't get it?

The post I'm replying to says "I don't get it", and I'm explaining it to you.

You can assert all you want that for you the flag represents the citizens. That really doesn't matter. All that matters is what that flag represents to the majority of Americans who see someone desecrate that same flag.

I think the Koran is a book. If I own a book, I should be able to do what I want with it. That doesn't make it somehow a good idea for me to make a mass-media special of me burning the Koran.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. Amen! nt

[piratefish08]

8. okay. more sullen and less flag dancing and you're okay with it?

happy people in the face of despair confuses a lot of people..........

[Brickbat]

10. What's an ideal OWS picture look like for you?

[HopeHoops]

14. Most of the pictures. It only takes one mouse in a restaurant to destroy the reputation.

[coalition_unwilling]

16. Like this one?

***********************

I doubt you'll ever see it on ABC, NBC, CBS or Fox

Cartesians of the world unite!

[bigtree]

17. anyone can take a stupid picture and claim it represents the movement

how are you going to stop that?

[Kahuna]

20. Dancing on an American flag? Are you serious??? I was afraid

something like that would happen. There is no quicker way to lose the good will of the American people than to have that image portrayed in the media. :scared:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

65. I'm so tired of fear. I'm tired of fear, and I'm tired of symbols, and I'm tired of bs

We Democrats are SO SCARED, SO HORRIFIED that right wingnuts might disapprove of our not worshipping a symbol. Why are we not more AFRAID and HORRIFIED of our disregard for our citizens, and the way we've allowed right wingnuts to trample over them?

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kahuna]

136. Why don't you get over yourself. I deal in reality. I don't know

what it is that you deal in.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

151. I deal in refusing to bend over for the right wing mythologies and symbols

I'm tired of bullshit propaganda symbols to conceal the damage being done to the people, while the population gets more and more impoverished.

[pipi_k]

145. And I'm tired of...

this "We Democrats" bullshit.

Really. Speak for yourself.

I don't care who approves or disapproves of my non-worship of a symbol.

I don't worship God. I don't worship the flag. And I don't even worship whatever symbols are, or may come from, the OWS movement.

And I don't give a rat's ass who doesn't like it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Here on what you are seeing, classic anti insurgency

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2254265

[JHB]

23. You can always point out that every group has its idiots...

...who don't understand the message getting received by outsiders is different from the one they intend to express.

However, there is just no way to avoid it short of a clampdown that would go against the larger purpose of OWS. And even if you did there are RW provacateurs who would do it just to send the message you're worried about.

If you're concerned, get out there. Convince the dancing people that there is a disconnect between what they are doing and what others see them as doing. "Sending a message" does no good if it gets garbled in transmission. Be seen yourself, with flag or not, supporting the larger cause. You don't have to like or denounce the dancing people, just lend your tailbone toward making sue this whole thing is bigger than that one photo.

[Gold Metal Flake]

24. "They". Got it.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. How silly. So you see stuff in the media, and you think OWS

is responsible for that? In my opinion, if you are unhappy with the media's editorial choices, you should be complaining to and about media sources who are creating and selecting the images that offend you so. Your argument here reminds me of the people who are annually 'concerned' that Pride Parades send 'the wrong message' just because you can count on telemedia to show bear ass leather guys and not PFLAG. They say 'stop having fun, stop being diverse, hide those men in dresses, for crying out loud, the IMAGE!'. Never saw the logic in that thinking. Those who oppose us will always publish what they see as damaging in the eyes of others who oppose us, there is no way we can behave that they will not criticize and slander.

[Le Taz Hot]

30. Your "concern" is duly noted.

:eyes:

[shraby]

36. I've seen a lot of OWS pictures and have yet to see one

where anyone is dancing on a flag. Linky please!

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. This s what the op speaking off

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2249771

Sadly we had morning and evening formation with the pledge and the media would represent tat as militias.

[shraby]

91. Thanks! I hadn't seen that. Looks like they are making a

statement to show how disrespectful the OWS movement is. Can I say Koch implants?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Or Breitbart.

Too..cartoonish.

[fasttense]

45. Here's the thing. People are dying. They are dying by the tens of thousands

from lack of medical care. There were 2 elderly ladies here who died from heat exhaustion this August because their Social Security checks were no longer enough to pay for electricity for air conditioning. I suspect several more elderly people will be dying when it starts to freeze.

There are people committing suicide because they don't see a way out of poverty. There are children going hungry and Corporations are sucking the life and humanity out of our nation. Banksters are robbing us and our politicians are setting us up to be nothing but marks for the conman.

The only group to stand up and object (not the fake group who loves their corporate sponsors) is the Occupy Wall Street Group, who are demonized, humiliated, infiltrated and beaten by the very society they are trying to help. And you object that they are NOT sending the right image. That they look like a spring break party or Mardi Gras.

It's a protest you obviously aren't bothering to attend but are more than willing to criticize.

It's just difficult to believe that your concern is over their image, when you so readily describe them as a right wing Fox watching RepubliCON would describe them.

And that photo is not what it seems. It has been manipulated to look worse than it seems.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Thank you!! nt

[Melinda]

157. Best. Post. Ever.

Should be its own OP... thank you for giving voice to truth. :hug:

[Cirque du So-What]

48. Defacing the flag is not my first choice for protest

I'm hardly a jingoistic flag-waver, but I believe the flag represents everyone - not just the military or the MIC or TPTB. There are any number of symbols I would prefer to denigrate or ridicule. Perception *does* matter!

[fasttense]

52. I don't trust that photo. I think it was manipulated. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. EXACTLY! The flag is a MERE symbol of the citizens of the United States. Period, end of story.

As a citizen, since we are represented by that piece of cloth, we have the right to do as we wish.

Why in God's name did we make a piece of cloth more important than the citizens it represents?

[Cirque du So-What]

95. Yes, it's just a piece of cloth

but to a lot of people - including people we wish to influence and educate - the flag represents much more than that. I fail to see the value in alienating whole bunches of people we may want as allies. Like I said, there are any number of alternatives to dancing a jig on the flag. I understand it's our right as guaranteed under the Constitution, but I suggest alternatives that aren't such a flash point for so many people.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

107. Fine. We have to keep the image of a myth. Fine, but why continue the right wing thinking?

What I mean is, so what? One person danced on the flag. So frikkin' what? That person is a citizen and the flag belongs to her as well.

If we CONTINUE to worship symbols like the evil Repukes do, and tread so so carefully that we might offend the (pardon the French) fascist assholes, so what?

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Tell me how do you feel about this

Then connect dots as to why media did not run nuts.

1984 comes to mind.

[Cirque du So-What]

154. I remember that well

and I recall that the corporate media yawned or shyly looked away as though it never happened. Numbnutz signing that made-in-China flag didn't diminish national security one jot or tittle, but the hypocrisy on the part of those who would harangue anyone on the left is astounding. Although the repugs kept silent, I'm sure it ignited a slow burn in many RW brains.

[StarsInHerHair]

165. people know little-behold-FLAG RUGS!!!

http://www.etsy.com/listing/77030122/mid-century-american-flag-rug-or-wall?utm_source=googleproduct&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=GPS

http://www.scarbrough-faire.com/product/country-rug-american-flag-rug-mini-braided-oval-rug-country-decor

http://www.scarbrough-faire.com/product/country-rug-american-flag-rug-braided-kitchen-rug-country-decor

[DainBramaged]

50. If there was leadership the assholes would be given direction

but of course, just let it flow, and what you get are defining moments the press laps up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Why did the press don't go after this?

Counter insurgency is lovely.

[DainBramaged]

58. Bought and paid for by the Right.....

:patriot:

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. A tad more here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2254265

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. Oy vey. lol Never mind, okay? Go watch something on tv. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. Fascism requires leaders. Democracy does not.

The moment the movement is turned over to 'leaders', we lose.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

121. Absolutely right! nt

[LanternWaste]

152. Let's try not to conflate 'defining moment' and 'aberrations'.

Let's try not to conflate 'defining moment' and 'aberrations'. They have specific and relevant differences, the former not as valid in this particular context as the latter.

[Nye Bevan]

67. .

Fanny-pack lady is certainly having fun, but I'm not sure how much she's helping the cause.

[Bryn]

94. Corporation Logos instead of stars

That's what they look like to me.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

133. That is not an American flag --

It takes 2 seconds of looking at it to see that is NOT an actual American flag. Hello, the star pattern is competely off??? Use your brains, people, don't buy the spin.

[HubertHeaver]

142. Need to do facial-recognition search on these people.

Fanny-pack lady looks familiar. And check the crowd for an O'Keefe wannabe camera guy.

[Zorra]

73. Maybe you could look at it as good people feeling joyful as they spread

democracy. And sharing this joy with others that feel the same.

Makes me pretty happy too.
:bounce:
As far as common sense goes, these heroes are out spending their time and energy trying to save your ass. It seems that real common sense dictates that you would want to join us in this endeavor.

As for the flag thing, I get that, but consider that photos like that are quite possibly printed or posted by tools of the 1%.

[Bryn]

77. Well, the United States of America does not respect American Flag

by having them made in China with slave, child labor. If USA wants us to respect their flag they should all be made in USA even materials for flags should be made in USA as well. Until then I don't give a shit about fake USA USA USA flags.

"Today the ghost of Betsy Ross is restless as America's flag is being sewn overseas and then imported to the United States. China is the last Communist giant, and was once a sworn enemy of America yet they lead the world in exporting the Stars and Stripes.

In 2003 the US imported six million dollars worth of flags from the rest of the world with the Chinese contributing $4.5 million to the imports. Another statistic of interest is that in 2001 flag imports topped out at $51.7 million with $29.7 million coming from the Chinese. In the four weeks following the tragedy of September 11th 2001 the US imported $34.8 million worth of American flags.

A question arises. Why is the United States allowing something so sacred to be produced by foreign nations? It is bad enough that American businesses are taking American jobs overseas but must we pledge an allegiance to the flag made in China?"

read more: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2552/american_flag_made_overseas.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

123. I'll bet the flags nowadays are made in China, where our jobs are nowadays. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

128. I think they should be made in the States by American workers, out of hemp fibre. nt

[Swede]

97. You are correct HH. Why upset potential allies.

Blue collar workers,soldiers,police etc that may have sympathy for the OWS will not like that photo one bit.

[Romulox]

99. OWS is the most HARMLESS "mass protest" I've ever seen. It doesn't threaten anything or anyone.

Which is why it is being allowed to proceed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

124. Agreed. And it's beginning to drive people crazy that there's no leader.

It's a brilliant movement, and growing exponentially.

[Bryn]

105. Blame SCOTUS

[Myrina]

108. ... and you're certain it's a current photo from a real OWS event?

:shrug: That would be my first question.

[pipi_k]

155. Where would it be from, then...

Teabaggers at one of their own rallies?

Stomping on their "god"?


I dunno...from my POV, it's not the photos that may or may not come out of OWS sites that turn me off.

It's some of the arrogant attitudes expressed here on DU that make my stomach turn.

One of the worst attitudes is the one that says, if someone DARES to ask a question or DARES to express an opinion that in any way strays from the OWS message, then that person is either a troll, an infiltrator, or an idiot.

That, more than anything, has managed to turn me against a lot of this. It may only be representative of a few, but it's much like religious zealots who ruin the message for the rest of the more sane Christians and make lots of people think they're ALL crazy.

[Ganja Ninja]

111. Sending the right message gets you ignored and mistreated.

OWS in NYC is getting no respect. The cops are dropping off drug addicts, alcoholics and the mentally unstable to run interference for the 1%. Non-violent protest is laughed off while the right's am radio hate machine cranks up their daily character assassination campaign on the protesters.

Frankly I think a little more vigorous messaging like the general strike in Oakland is better. If a few windows get smashed or spray painted along the way well that's unfortunate but it's no worse than what peaceful protesters are being subject to for exercising their 1st amendment rights.

[a simple pattern]

135. They should just be dancing on the Constitution I suppose.

Like the 1% (who enrich themselves at our expense) and their bought politicians (that we paid for) and their paid thugs (that we also paid for).

[gkhouston]

139. They'd have to fish it out of the trash and tape it back together first. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

144. "If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution." - Emma Goldman (Anarchist)

Another post decrying the fact that the dirty hippies just won't conform to what the OP thinks a revolution should look like.

[Marr]

148. I'm sure everyone who is actually involved was awaiting your internet critique with baited breath.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

150. I think that in many cases...

I think that in many cases the courage of one's own convictions holds more weight than mere Madison Avenue-style branding. I believe this is one of those cases.

Regardless, an aberration by its own definition is not indicative or representative of the larger whole.

[LeftyMom]

156. Keyboard activists don't get to tell people sleeping in snowy parks how to do activism.

If you want anybody to give a flying fuck about your opinion, go get involved.

[GoneOffShore]

162. Fat chance of that happening.

[Shandris]

160. Define irony.

A group of relatively small, powerless individuals fighting a war that many say "can't be won" (defeating the 1%) making a statement by dancing on a flag made famous by a group of small, seemingly powerless individuals fighting a war that "couldn't be won".

I think that that is the most poignant thing to consider about it. A flag in and of itself isn't something to worship, but if you can -honestly- say you can see -absolutely no connection- between a people's history, their flag, their country, and some small sense of national pride for accomplishments, past or present...then you have no empathy. The people who want us to 'worship' a flag? Yeah, fuck 'em. That flag is what we're fighting FOR, though. It symbolizes the promises of our nation, made under toll of human life. The 'statement' of OWS circulated yesterday copies the opening of some of our nation's most important documents, and one line mentions that the 'people are seeking to redress grievances'. Seeking that redress is a promise of that very flag, and a power that many nations do not automatically bestow (even though, obviously, many would prefer not to see that power bestowed).

[GoneOffShore]

161. O. F. F. S's

Not this shit again.

[TransitJohn]

169. This is a textboook concern troll post.

Was that your intention?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

170. wasn't "common sense" written by Thomas W Pain?

I can't figure out why my car windows keep exploding. I guess safe light didn't sat it right