Rights Collide as Town Clerk Sidesteps Role in Gay Marriages

[SecularMotion]

Source: NY Times

LEDYARD, N.Y. — Rose Marie Belforti is a 57-year-old cheese maker, the elected town clerk in this sprawling Finger Lakes farming community and a self-described Bible-believing Christian. She believes that God has condemned homosexuality as a sin, so she does not want to sign same-sex marriage licenses; instead, she has arranged for a deputy to issue all marriage licenses by appointment.

But when a lesbian couple who own a farm near here showed up at the town hall last month, the women said they were unwilling to wait.

Now Ms. Belforti is at the heart of an emerging test case, as national advocacy groups look to Ledyard for an answer to how the state balances a religious freedom claim by a local official against a civil rights claim by a same-sex couple.

Ms. Belforti, represented by a Christian legal advocacy group based in Arizona, the Alliance Defense Fund, is arguing that state law requires New York to accommodate her religious beliefs

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/nyregion/rights-clash-as-town-clerk-rejects-her-role-in-gay-marriages.html?hp

[xchrom]

1. Rose Marie needs a different job. Nt

[avaistheone1]

25. I think so.

k&r

[justiceischeap]

2. One could argue that the Bible also gives her the 'right' to deny

inter-racial marriage certificates as well. Has she done that, I wonder.

I see her losing this case because you can't pick and choose which 'sins' you're going to discriminate against. You have to either discriminate indiscriminately or not at all.

[Yo_Mama]

27. Whatever legal rights she has

would probably be based on the fact that she was delegating the task of issuing ALL marriage certificates to the deputy.

The lawsuit is really based on the issue of whether she can do that. She clearly doesn't have the right to deny marriage certificates to anyone, but no one was denied a marriage certificate, nor were heterosexual couples and homosexual couples treated differently.

The legal case is going to turn on whether she could, as elected City Clerk, delegate that function the way she did. There is no right whatsoever to deny anybody anything based on whatever your religion says is a sin, no matter whether you do it indiscriminately ("I'm sorry ma'am, you are fat. That means you are a glutton, and sinners don't deserve the sacrament of marriage") or otherwise.

Let's put it this way. According to Christian doctrine, we are all sinners. But I am quite sure that no City Clerk's office has the right to refuse to issue marriage certificates to any couple legally qualified to get them on the basis that they are all sinners. Whether a City Clerk's office can set certain conditions - hours, etc - to receive them is a different matter, and the question of whether this arrangement can be based on one person's reluctance to issue marriage certificates may be a legal issue.

I'm pretty sure that a UK court ruled that an arrangement like this was legal, but I don't remember the case. UK has strict anti-discrimination laws.

However, trying to find it, I did find a reference that in Vermont, the law specifically allows town clerks to delegate the duty if they feel unable to issue civil-union licenses for religious reasons:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_mark1.htm

On the matter of the town clerks, they dealt with what they said was "the highly questionable proposition that a public official ... can retain public office while refusing to perform a generally applicable duty of that office on religious grounds." They wrote: "We observe, however, that this proposition -- which means that the personal religious beliefs of a public officer may in some circumstances trump the public's right to have that officer's duties performed -- is neither self-evident nor supported by any of the cases cited by plaintiffs." The legislation does specify that assistants to the town clerk can be appointed to issue the licenses if the clerks have religious objections. The court stated that: "Thus, the law itself offers an 'accommodation' for town clerks with religious reservations about issuing a civil union license."

So maybe there is some such provision in the NY law. Probably not.

[Chorophyll]

3. If she can't fulfill the duties of her job, she should step aside.

Most town clerks don't get to pick and choose which parts of the law to uphold.

[Yo_Mama]

29. You know, it would appear that you and I are both wrong

http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/07/18/Alliance_Defense_Fund_Defends_New_York_Clerks/
That's a link to an article about precisely this type of issue, and it cites several NY laws that appear to allow what this lady did. Arranging for someone else to take over the function seems to be allowed under NY law:

“But according to a recently released Alliance Defense Fund memorandum New York Law requires employers to accommodate sincerely held religious beliefs under Executive Law § 296(10)(a),” reports New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedoms, “This section of the law requires employers to accommodate an employee's religious observance or practice, ‘unless, after engaging in a bona fide effort, the employer demonstrates that it is unable to reasonably accommodate the employee's or prospective employee's sincerely held religious observance or practice ... without undue hardship.’

“Furthermore, a specific provision of New York's Domestic Relations Law § 15(3) allows all of the clerk's duties in issuing marriage licenses to be delegated to a deputy clerk or other municipal employee. It would seem reasonable to conclude that a locality could appoint a deputy clerk or another civil servant, that does not have an objection to same-sex ‘marriages,’ to issue these licenses,” according to New Yorkers for Constitutional Freedoms.

The couple who filed suit will claim that having to make an appointment with the deputy is an "undue hardship".

[Chorophyll]

33. That's incredible. It just seems wrong for the state to

accommodate "sincerely held religious beliefs" when those beliefs include discrimination against a particular group of people.

[Yo_Mama]

40. I'm a bit baffled by it

But I didn't write the laws. That's the Alliance Defense Fund being quoted.

I guess this will be hashed out in court.

[SkyDaddy7]

4. Christianity in America is such a JOKE!

No one who claims to be Christian follows the Bible...All Christians pick & choose leaving the door wide open for those who choose to do crap like this & be considered mainstream & reasonable!

I wish I could go back in time & tweak history so that the Ancient Greeks crushed the Roman Empire so that the religion we had to deal with today worshiped the Earth & loved science! And most of all really did not care who loved who! Of course I know it is not that simple but one can dream!

[AlbertCat]

12. Christianity is such a JOKE!

And the Ancient Greeks were not all warm a fuzzy either.

[SkyDaddy7]

15. Yes, I am fully aware the Greeks had

their flaws but would imagine those flaws to have been much easier to iron out over time than the flaws related to Christianity & the Bible. I think humanity would be 1000yrs ahead of where we are now if the Greeks ruled the ancient world to present. The Greeks were very interested in how the world really worked & if that mindset would have persisted from then to now I think it is safe to say humanity would be much better off.

[Yo_Mama]

23. Would they have abolished slavery?

The abolishment of slavery was largely the result of a western Christian movement.

The ancient Greeks believed in a lot of things. I am not sure the world would be better if they had beaten the Romans. I am not even sure it would be different.

Their society was very strongly built on classes, and for all their remarkable achievements, they were very poor in defusing what they learned into the rest of society. I'd like to think that the world does progress and that most cultures would, given time, take the same sequence, but history offers plenty of examples of very old societies that didn't make these leaps.

[Moonwalk]

30. Um, Christianity didn't abolish slavery either. You're under a delusion if you think it did--

--There are plenty of slaves in the Bible and passages, new and old, that uphold the right to own slaves, and Christian nations were slave owning nations for centuries. Christian southerners used bible passages to support their argument that it was perfectly fine to be a Christian and own slaves.

So, no, the Greeks might not have abolished slavery. So?

[Yo_Mama]

41. "A western Christian movement"

And it was a lot of religious people who started the abolitionist push.

I would not like to see a world in which slavery was still commonly tolerated. A world that didn't abolish slavery would surely have to be worse than this one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

Slavery and later serfdom was first abolished in the west. Slavery in Japan and some ME countries didn't end until after WWII (in Japan the occupation authorities ended it), and in a few places in Asia and Africa it still survives.

[BigD_95]

5. If she cant do her job then quit

This is part of the job requirements.

I would love to be the lawyer asking her questions on the stand. I would go through everything that is crazy that the bible says and ask her if she agrees with it.

[LiberalFighter]

6. I remember years ago on several shows that characters holding more than one position in town

would change their hats when asked questions that pertain to the position held.

Elected people need to understand that when they are performing a task in the capacity of an elected official that they must perform those duties in that capacity only. They were not elected to perform the duties of a parent, religious leader, in the capacity of their previous or current outside employment or any other capacity except as the current elected official.

[Javaman]

7. "Rose Marie Belforti is a 57-year-old cheese maker"...

Gregory:"What was that?"
Parvus:"I don't know, I was too busy talking to Big Nose."
Man:"I think it was, 'Blessed are the cheesemakers'."
Mrs. Gregory:"What's so special about the cheesemakers?"
Gregory:"Well obviously it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products."

[Zorra]

18. LOL! Praise Brian! Blessed are the cheesemakers!

Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, fuck off!

Arthur: How shall we fuck off, O Lord?

[24601]

26. I believe -it was "General" manufacturers of dairy products. "And

I ought to know, I've followed a few."

[bongbong]

8. The Bible

She could claim "My Religious Freedom is at stake!" after somebody found her holding people captive & using them as slaves. After all, rules governing the ownership & use of slaves are a big part of the Bible. If she wins this case somebody should do just that to test the waters.

Ob. Joke: The Priest explained his hatred of Buddhism by saying, "Any religion without a hell isn't worth a damn"

[No Elephants]

9. No God-given OR Constitutional right to be clerk, Madam.

Either render unto Caesar what Caesar demands of you or resign or be fired.

Call it.

[FreeBillClinton]

10. She should step down or go to jail

You can't deny people their civil rights for personal reasons.

[Ian David]

11. So much for "blessed are the cheesemakers." n/t

[AlbertCat]

13. Why would she even WANT a job like hers?

I mean if her religion is more important than her job.

She needs to decide. Which is more important to her. Her job and her religion are both personal choices she has made. The state has nothing to do with her choices.

[Bluenorthwest]

14. Belforti needs to be called out for her fakery and hypocrisy

The Bible she is claiming she sees as the Word of God commands women to remain silent in the gatherings, they are commanded never to ask a question in public, but only in private, and only to their husbands. Yet Rose is a public official, mouthing off and questioning men? What right does she have to edit her Bible to suit her own desires to have a career and to be outspoken in public?
The entire 'faith community' creates their faith as they go along. None of them, not one, adheres to the commands made to them, even the commands that are right there next to 'gays are bad'. The passages that tell us women must remain subservient are lengthy indeed, far longer than any anti gay passages. None of them support slavery either, but the Bible does, the Word of God says slaves, obey your masters.
She's just a bigot with an excuse in mind. If she was serious about her faith, she'd practice that faith, and follow the rules set down for her. She does not.

[Missy Vixen]

39. My favorite willful hypocrisy

Our former church has a "Divorce Ministry". It's mentioned multiple times in the Bible that God hates divorce.

We left the church over the pastor's admitted bigotry towards gay people.

[tcaudilllg]

16. Easy: they get fired.

And if they don't go willingly, they get arrested.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

17. Who can fire a city clerk?

In my city, it's an elected position. Dunno if the mayor can oust the clerk.

:hi:

[bowens43]

20. then take her to court......nt

[Yo_Mama]

24. She is being taken to court

That's what the article is about. It sounds like she might be voted out before then, though.

[Yo_Mama]

21. She is elected

And the article notes that she is facing a challenge over this, and implies it may well succeed.

As to state law, I don't know anything about NY state law. I wouldn't think anything in state law protects her failure to do the legally required duties of her position. Certainly nothing in federal law does.

[bowens43]

19. she won't do her job, fire her. nt

[ladywnch]

22. as has been said MANY times on this board. Most Christians don't have

even a fleeting grasp of or familiarity with Christianity.

They are now rewriting the Bible to accommodate (read:cover)their bastardization of Christianity.

[closeupready]

28. If she doesn't want to obey the law, she has NO business being in government.

nt

[buckrogers1965]

31. I've been trying to find a true Christian for my whole life.

I guess there was only one Christian and he stopped hanging out a long time ago.

Around where I live, people think that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because they were homosexual. It repeatedly states in the bible that those cities were destroyed because they were inhospitable to strangers and they did not share their bread with the poor. Sort of like the self proclaimed religious right in America.

[SoapBox]

32. Separation of Church and State...'nuff said...Move on Clerk Lady.

or was that Church Lady?!?

http://www.myspace.com/video/saturday-night-live/cold-opening-church-lady-and-saddam-hussein/108219674

[David Sky]

34. She is trying to have her cake (or, in this case cheese) and eat it, too!!

She tried to sidestep the issue, AND keep her job.

Cake and eat it, too!

Sorry, the taxpayers didn't hire her to refuse to uphold the law simply when she finds religious objection to the law. The taxpayers hire the clerk to do the job 100%. If that cannot happen, she needs to go back to making cheese full time.

[Blue_Tires]

36. Nah, she knows her career is on borrowed time...She's just playing up her 'martyr' role

and hoping these 15 minutes will get her on FOX or CBN or something...

[David Sky]

37. Oh for SURE, you're darn right about THAT! But I think

I'm right, too! If it were up to her, she'd eat that cheesecake and have it, too!

I also think she's really got chutzpah the hypocrisy of following SOME of the Biblical commands, while being a woman who has no problem with speaking up to power, (as she would be commanded NOT to do by the same Bible that prohibits same sex unions).

[Blue_Tires]

35. Is there a mayor in that town?

Why doesn't he/she throw her out??

[Trillo]

38. But wasn't John Jesus' beloved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_of_Jesus#The_beloved_disciple">Source

The Gospel of John makes references to the disciple whom Jesus loved (John 13:23, 19:26, 21:7, 20), a phrase which does not occur in the Synoptic Gospels. In the text, this beloved disciple is present at the crucifixion of Jesus, with Jesus' mother, Mary.

The disciple whom Jesus loved is a self-reference by the author of the Gospel (John 21:24), traditionally regarded as John the Apostle. Rollan McCleary, author of Signs for a Messiah, thinks this identification would make the phrase highly significant.<5>
Jesus and John at the Last Supper, by Valentin de Boulogne

Aelred of Rievaulx, in his work Spiritual Friendship, referred to the relationship of Jesus and John as a "marriage" and held it out as an example sanctioning friendships between clerics.<6> It has been claimed that it was held by Francesco Calcagno, who was investigated on that account by the Venetian Inquisition in 1550.

James I of England may have been relying on a pre-existing tradition when he defended his relationship with the young Duke of Buckingham: "I wish to speak in my own behalf and not to have it thought to be a defect, for Jesus Christ did the same, and therefore I cannot be blamed. Christ had his son John, and I have my George."<7>
...

[Hosnon]

42. In NY?!

But DU has taught me that this is a red state and/or Southern problem! :sarcasm: