To those criticizing the Occupy Wall St. Protests....

[FarLeftFist]

Yesterday I got to speak with many of these individuals and there are some things you should know before criticizing them:

For the most part these people are the next generation of the new American Left.

They are not protesting to change the way we currently do business in this world, they are protesting to raise awareness of this cause for THEIR generation and future generations. Although they all seem very much down for a revolution right now as well.

They are trying to shape a new world-view among their peers. A world-view that will shape their future and the future generations after them.

After speaking to many of them my consensus is that their vision of society is one that would be considered further Left than many of the posters here.

Something else I noticed, many of these protesters are 17, 18, 19 yrs old. Some even 16. Some even 50+. Yet are smarter and more aware of this situation and whats at stake than 99.9% of any teabagger/conservative right-wing ignoramus and most of the general public who are still blind to Wall St. criminal acts.

Brush these protesters off at your own peril, but they are directly raising awareness to a whole new generation of voters and shaping their peers world-view into one that would benefit all citizens and possibly bring far more Progressive candidates into power in the future. These protesters MAY even be our future candidates. These protesters for the most part are further Left than just about any politician in their world-view of American society.

When I asked 'What would a victory here look like?' a 17yr old boy who chose to remain anonymous said "An awareness of being more self-sustaining individuals and less hyper-consumerism and...", then he was cut of by his girl friend (girlfriend?) who said "Less corporate rule in our Govt, less fascism in our Govt and true Democracy for all individuals!". The boy then stated "We are occupying Wall St. because Wall St. is occupying DC".

These are our people, people. These are our people.

Embrace them. Spread the word of their cause. Day 12 of a non-violent protest raising awareness of the true downfall of Democracy.

These are our people. These are the future of America. We may or may not live to see their progress but we have a responsibility to ensure future generations of a society which they envision.

It is a society in which our principles embrace.


And now, since I'm a fan of 70's/80's left-wing working class anti-fascist punk-rock, a song for the occupiers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owrVQebWCtc

[piratefish08]

1. K+R

[rucognizant]

29. The Fourth Turning:

An American Prophecy - What the Cycles of History Tell Us About America's Next Rendevous with Destiny by William Strauss and Neil Howe ( Dec. 29, 1997) new $12.23, used $6.91 Amazon.com.
While they were writing the book I was getting "boots on the ground", learning, as a 57 yr old non-trad. Graphic Design Major.
If I'd had $ I would have bought myself a Mac & some Adobe software & TAUGHT MYSELF. I didn't, but Pell & Stafford grants were available so I went to school! After that I taught art to kids ages 6 - 12 at the YWCA, & did a VISTA stint with 7th -12th graders, for 2 years to pay off some of the student loans. AS I worked with these extraordinary, young people, I read about Indigo children, realized they a were all Pluto, ( anarchy/ death & rebirth) in Scorpio, born between 1984 & Nov. 10 1995,. my almost 16 yr old Grandaughter's birthday. I perceived that they would bring about a Renaissance!
AND HERE WE ARE RIGHT ON SCHEDULE! Do NOT underestimate them....they were born remembering their soul contract in this lifetime!
While I was a VISTA an older group of young people came to town in their knit caps & duct taped sneakers.........and boufght the old Grange building. At that time I thought "The conservative community will not let them near their children!" They tuned me in to Mother Jones & The Nation In 11 years they have performed a miracle...creating a real sense of community from a diverse population. See pix of the Blackfly Ball this year.
http://www.beehivecollective.org/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lightmotion/sets/72157627371400811/
I went to the Ball dressed in a 35 yr old, 35 lb lighter, grecian style dress I had made, adding a headress with an owl......as Pallas Athena, the Goddess of Wisdom & War and larger picture patterns. It was truly remarkable; I drew the 20 - 27 year olds to me like a magnet. ( I'm 72) They KNEW exactly WHO I was & WHY!
The Revolution has begin....& it will be LOVE not War..................

[BobbyBoring]

54. Interesting!

A local right wing talk radio blow hard was talking about that book yesterday. While we differ on so many things, there are common threads. If we could just get them to realize that the people they worship, the "Job Creators" are the problem and not the poor, we might get somewhere~

[PA Democrat]

2. "We are occupying Wall St. because Wall St. is occupying DC".

Great quote and thank you for your report.

[villager]

7. And Wall Street seems to occupy it regardless of who wins "elections"

so clearly other strategies are called for...

[calimary]

34. Yes! That's a FANTASTIC buzz phrase - bumpersticker-ready, too!

Unfortunately we HAVE to think in terms of communicating that way. Because of the low-information, low-intellect, WILLFULLY ignorant voters who seem to have proliferated all over our land.

It gives me a little bit of comfort thinking that these young people are leaning left - looks like REALLY left. And I hope they prevail! I hope their message and their fervor spreads! And I hope their side takes command. We could use a lurch back to the left in this country. It's gone WAY too far wrong. Hell, these bastards have even corrupted the very word "right," so it doesn't even mean what it should anymore.

"We are occupying Wall Street because Wall Street is occupying DC."

[vets74]

48. We just need to include a couple of these signs...

and there'll be 5,000 networks out there with their anchors a-weighing.

[meegbear]

3. And who are those criticizing the Occupy Wall St. Protests?

[saras]

22. Search DU - google is your friend, but they aren't

[JVS]

38. The usual RW assholes.

[bulloney]

50. Criticism has centered around a lack of focus or agenda by the MSM gerbils, which I don't buy.

Look at the teabaggers, whom the gerbils give unlimited attention. You go to their events and they'll throw out their spoon-fed lines in which they apparently don't see the hypocrisy. I see teabaggers in their 70s screaming against "socialism" while they're collecting Social Security and are covered under Medicare. I see them bitching about Obama's big government agenda today, after they were silent during Bush's Homeland Security takeover and his warmongering days.

Critics have been the big-business shills in the media and their listeners who have the critical thinking skills of a roll of toilet paper.

The fact that the event has taken place on Wall Street is giving some focus on the root causes of most of the world's economic problems.

[OneGrassRoot]

56. I was going to ask the same thing. Thanks for asking and for the replies. :) n/t

[Voice for Peace]

4. I was skeptical in the beginning but the more I've seen video clips & interviews

(I'm not referring to the police-violence videos) the more it seems a beautiful and inspired thing, the beginning of something big and powerful. I hope it has wings, and legs; it certainly has heart & intelligence.

[nc4bo]

5. Hear Hear!! They are the ones they've been waiting for....

:patriot:

I'm not sure why so many are not supportive of these protesters. Is it because their numbers are small? Is it because of their ages? Whatever.

Movements do not have to begin with numbers in the thousands. They start with an idea. A hope. One pamphlet. One thought. Movements all start somewhere and with some one(s).

May their numbers grow.

I, for one, support them.

[brooklynite]

6. My reasons for criticizng the protests have nothing to do with who they are...

...they have to do with the approach they're taking. Specifically, their avoidance of "leadership" in favor of consensus-required decision making, and their unwillingness to focus attention on the specific issues they ostensively have come together for.

When I asked 'What would a victory here look like?' a 17yr old boy who chose to remain anonymous said "An awareness of being more self-sustaining individuals and less hyper-consumerism and...", then he was cut of by his girl friend (girlfriend?) who said "Less corporate rule in our Govt, less fascism in our Govt and true Democracy for all individuals!". The boy then stated "We are occupying Wall St. because Wall St. is occupying DC".

Do you see a problem with the above? Two differing opinions about why they're protesting, one of which would be incomprehensible to the average person walking by, the other fairly clear (if a little hyperbolic), but neither specifically called out by the group as a whole.

Now, consider the list of "demands" posted on Day 5 on their website:

Ending capital punishment is our one demand.

Ending wealth inequality is our one demand.

Ending police intimidation is our one demand.

Ending corporate censorship is our one demand.

Ending the modern gilded age is our one demand.

Ending political corruption is our one demand.

Ending joblessness is our one demand.

Ending poverty is our one demand.

Ending health-profiteering is our one demand.

Ending American imperialism is our one demand.

Ending war is our one demand.

However meritorious this list is, the Death Penalty is not a Wall Street issue (much less the issue that should be listed first); neither is "American Imperialism" and "War" (Yes, I know you'll tell me about the "Military-Industrial Complex", but I think you'd be hard-pressed to sell that explanation to the average voter). The rest are broadly appropriate, but so vague as to be useless pointers. "End the Gilded Age"? What exactly does that mean? If I make a lot of money through respectable means, are you saying I can't buy a BMW or have dinner at the Four Seasons? And if that is what you're saying, how do you propose to achieve it?

Where this group is failing is in not (after 11 days) getting to the point of one or a handful of critical issues and specific resolutions. My fear is that, rather than becoming the next "Tahrir Square", it will become the next "Lafayette Square": specifically the handful of protestors in a tent outside the White House who've been protesting...something for over 20 years, without making a dent on the public concsiousness.

[truedelphi]

11. As far as I am concerned, the Death Penalty is a Wall St issue.

As is the current policy of letting the real criminal element occupy High Offices

The people who have stolen are government and our economy away from us should ll be in jail, but aren't.

Too many names to mention, but a handful are these men:

Henry Kissinger (Adviser to current President)
Tim Geithner, Appointee of This Administration, Former Head of NY Federal Reserve, current
Secretary of the Treasury
Dick Cheney, VP of the USA under Bush, retired
Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense under Bush, retired
Michael Taylor, promoter of famine foods, current head of FDA
Emanuel Rahm, architect of the wording of the legal documents aht brought about NAFTA

As far as your comment that:
"neither is "American Imperialism" and "War" (Yes, I know you'll tell me about the "Military-Industrial Complex", but I think you'd be hard-pressed to sell that explanation to the average voter).

I would respond with the fact that some 70+ percent of all Americans want both wars ended now, so that money can go into local coffers and not the pockets of people like Gates, and his buddies in the defense industry.

Money spent on war when we don't have a working economy is a travesty and it is a travesty that ensures the further tyranny of the Political and Military Elite over the common citizen.

[dotymed]

66. Also, with the "privatized prison systems" that

ARE being traded on wall street (their stocks anyway), IMO, the death penalty is a reasonable demand from these average Americans. Actually, there are not many demands that can not be tied to wall street. I would have included; prosecuting SCOTUS "justices" and yes that would also be a wall street issue.

The giant corporations who openly bribe these "justices" are major "movers & shakers" on wall street. The anti- public health care PACS are wall street financed. Our Democracy has (is) been replaced by capitalism.

I understand that one is a type of governance, presently, so is the other. IMO, you do not have a valid argument and IF you did, why would you disrespect those people who are working (at their peril) to improve and restore our Democracy?

[rhett o rick]

17. Yes they are a rag-tag bunch and a little chaotic. They need a Thomas Jefferson to step forward.

Are you available?

[Luminous Animal]

18. Why did you leave off this part? "Note: This article is NOT an official list of demands."

[brooklynite]

30. Never said it was an "official" list of demands...

...but it was part of their "official" communique, and it reflects the issues that the protestors are considering important.

[Hatchling]

19. Actually they are using the democratic process.

They are taking polls and discussing on their forum what the demands will be. They are demonstrating a true democracy in action.

It's a Young People's Continental Congress. They are in the process of writing a Constitution.

I find it exhilarating

[HCE SuiGeneris]

60. + (insert number)

Well said. Exhilarating is a very apt term.

[rucognizant]

84. I agree!

[Fire Walk With Me]

88. Exhilarating- the perfect word, I agree fully!

[bengalherder]

27. You are upset they don't have a leader?

Why do you need a leader?

Seems to me, if you depend on a charismatic leader to inspire a group then that group and cause is as vulnerable as that leader. That's why killing people like MLK and RFK were so effective in routing progress in this country. Charismatic leaders can also not be everything they represent themselves to be, recent history is instructive there, and those can derail progress by disengaging and disillusioning their followers.

As for the list. I don't see what's wrong with it.

The Declaration of Independence is a laundry list. To demand a single solitary complaint is raising the bar unnecessarily high. Most revolutions start rather vaguely and crystallize as time goes on. Look at the arc of the original American revolution. The rag tag bunch of resistors in Boston must have looked amusingly unorganized to the British crown in the 1760's and 70's. The representatives to the continental congress had many ideas, demands and directions that were distilled into Jefferson's declaration. None of this stuff pops up full-blown from the heads of great men, although I suppose it would be a lot easier for some if it did.

[lunatica]

46. +1

Very well put. It's unfortunate how some people want everything in black or white. It's also unfortunate how everything has to be the way they dictate in order to see any merit in it. And if there isn't one leader there to inspire an uprising, then it simply isn't an uprising.

The same posters will post the same criticisms again and again no matter how much reason, logic and history lessons his/her posts elicit. It's almost as if they want to create squabbles for divisive effect.

[Jackpine Radical]

62. The starfish and the spider.

Google it if it doesn't ring a bell.

[rucognizant]

86. The FIRST NAVAL BATTLE of the Revolutionary War........

Took place in Machias Maine in June, 1775, 40 Patriots armed with more pitchforks than guns, ( although they quickly appropriated the British guns/cannons, captured a British Naval Vessel..............which created the Merchant Marine.
Check with the M M National Office in DC..............They have made a CD telling the story.

What did these PATRIOTS WANT? FOOD, DESPERATELY NEEDED FOOD! THEY WERE BEING ASKED TO SWEAR ALLEGENCE TO THE CROWN, TO RECIEVE THEIR WINTER STORES SHIPPED IN FROM BOSTON. Not taxation with out representation......SURVIVAL! ( without groveling) That PRECEEDED the Declaration of Independence by a year.
That was the 3rd leg of the support for the forming of this country that I KNOW about
Boston Tea Party,/ Greenwich NJ Tea Burning in the square. ( would have clogged the small Cohansey Creek., Dec 1774,/ and Machias Naval Battle June 1775
I'm sure there were other actions around the colonies that we don't know about.
ALL BEFORE JULY 1776!

[2banon]

35. I'm a hard core leftist, and i completely agree with you

I watched similar scenarios with complete dismay during the early years of Iraq anti-war protests/demonstrations and organization meet-ups here in the SF Bay area.. Heart is absolutely in the right place, but this "consensus" processing of the endless lists "one demands" (all goals I agree with) doesn't compute with the action at hand in terms of conveying "to the masses" what issue is being protested. Unfortunately, we have a very lame, uneducated, sound bite oriented culture.

As much as I admire and agree with Michael Moore, I had a really hard time listening to the video clip of him with the bull horn and crowd repeating his "chants". It was actually cringing for me. But I haven't been to demonstration that I haven't pretty much found disheartening in this 20 point list of demands. Almost like amateur hour, and not very serious.

[JDPriestly]

40. You are criticizing them because they want to change many, many things.

They are right. We do not have the time to mess around with incremental change any more. They are right about needing fundamental change. We thought that was what Obama was talking about.

Our mistake.

All of the issues they raise are part of one whole movement -- to get the corporations back on the sidelines and put people in charge of our government.

[fasttense]

43. I'm so tired of hearing that the protesters don't have ONE consistent issue.

Tell me what is the ONE consistent issue for the teabaggers?

Every time they protest it's a new issue, it a new attack on something.

Here are a few of teabaggers' issues:

Smaller government

No more taxes

Obama an illegitimate president:
He's a Muslim
He's not born here
He wont release his birth certificate
He's a terrorist and pals around with terrorists

Keep your hands off our Guns

Prayer in school

Religion in government

Anti-affirmative action

Tax cuts for the idle rich

Corporation are people too

Now tell me which of those the teabaggers are focused on? Which of those are their defining issues?

Despite the teabaggers failure to focus on one issue they have become a defining force in RepubliCON politics and in shaping legislation in congress.

So to all of you who constantly criticize because there is no focus in Occupy Wall Street, think about the lack of focus with the teabaggers.

[zacherystaylor]

57. I could nitpick if I wanted to but

the problems with the protestors aren't nearly as big as the problems with Wall Street. So if I were to do so it would be relatively minor and designed to be constructive so that they could do a more effective job. IMO there is no purpose throwing out blanket criticism without acknowledging the fact that their opponents are much more corrupt and criticizing them should be a much higher priority.

[bvar22]

63. Without a "Leader",

...it is much more difficult to target & discredit them.
If someone steps to the front and claims Leadership,
it is OVER.

Without a "Leader", the only avenue open for those who wish to discredit them is the weak claim that
"They lack cohesiveness and a unified message."





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[alcibiades_mystery]

85. To Hell with Fuhrerprinzip

Great post: going "leaderless" is not only a moral imperative; it is also a practical imperative.

The desire for "leaders" is what destroys democracy every time. Enough with leaders. Enough with Fuhrerprinzip in all its silly forms.

[stuntcat]

70. the fact that,

that "being more self-sustaining individuals and less hyper-consumerism" is "incomprehensible to the average person" is why this needs to happen so bad.
It breaks my heart how we are now, and I'm afraid the change we need is too big to happen. I hardly know anyone who would be willing to change their lives to a way that doesn't rape the planet. I'm glad my years are half over. I'm not young like lots of the people out there but I still want to join them!

[rucognizant]

83. I did hear.........

One young man speaking to the group, in the square, early in the week. He said they were coming together, to discuss their concerns and formulate a list of them. Isn't THAT DEMOCRACY? Rather than autocratic rule?
Here is some required reading! used hardcover only $3.50.

http://www.amazon.com/Starfish-Spider-Unstoppable-Leaderless-Organizations/dp/1591841437

The Unstoppable Power of Leaderless Organizations You cut off the leg of a spider, it is disabled. You cut off a leg of the starfish; it grows a new one!

[gratuitous]

8. Well, you know how upset folks can get

If you're not wearing proper clothing, or different demonstrators are there for different reasons, or they haven't organized themselves just so, it discredits the whole exercise. Tut, tut! If only these folks had consulted the right people, they'd have been far more successful. As it is, they're only confusing things which means they're Not Serious.

Crisis averted! Back to business as usual.

(And if you think I'm kidding with this post, just wait . . .)

[deutsey]

9. They're doing SOMETHING...it may be flawed in some ways, but perhaps

these protesters will learn from those flaws and develop better strategies for future protests.

[Telly Savalas]

25. Yeah, you have to give them that

While I agree with a lot of criticism being directed towards the protestors regarding the effectiveness of their tactics, at bare minimum they need to be commended for bucking the norm of apathy. That sets a positive example for other people, and in the long run can only help.

[FarLeftFist]

10. I am willing to say that their unifying message is one of anti-fascism and more democracy.

[The Wizard]

12. They find Corporate Feudalism

to be anti American and abhorrent. The Wall Street shysters have bankrupted the economy and looted the Treasury by any means at their disposal, and without consequence. When is the time to speak out? Now is that time.
Everyone be sure to watch the movie "Network."
"We're mad as hell and we're not going to take this anymore."
(Howard Beale)

[Bragi]

13. K&R

[Dont call me Shirley]

14. Thank you to all of you who are occupying wall st. I am with you in spirit.

[marions ghost]

15. These are people who realize what's at stake

--why should they feel defensive about nonviolent protesting? :shrug:

Let the armchair critics do it better...

Our current dysfunctional system is not working = bottom line.

[ooglymoogly]

16. Further left than many on this board....kr nt

[saras]

23. Yeah, but so were Nixon and Reagan

[tpsbmam]

20. Excellent post -- thanks, FarLeftFist! K&R & thanks to all who are out on the lines

fighting for all of us! Man do I want to be there and in DC next week. Sadly, I'll be having MAJOR surgery on the 5th & there's no way.....so I'm WAY grateful to those who ARE able and who are getting out there and doing it!

[fascisthunter]

21. Bravo!

:thumbsup:

[unionworks]

24. criticizing!?!

These folks are on the front line, blocking the path of the monster, paying the pricefor the rest of us getting maced and busted up. My forehead to the ground for these brave souls.

[jtuck004]

26. They are hackers, makers. This is just the start of a process.

But FIRST they need to start, and that is what they are doing. Short of putting an ad on Craigslist and trying beg a room at the local library where you can't have food, how would YOU start something that needed to be this big? Not a challenge, more a rhetorical question. They sure got a hell of a mailing list and a number of resources doing it this way, and certainly enough support to make this worth the effort.

S. Sarandon was on camera with suggestions, and I hope they are smart enough to learn from the 100 years of modern organizing that has preceded them, but we shall see. There are people there teaching classes, so I have hope. (I was distraught at first, that she had to walk around saying "What does that mean?", but the job they have set themselves is so large that it will take some time to refine). They are tapping on the window of a large amount of fear and loathing in the American public, and if they can figure out a story this could turn into something that could shift the country.

btw - I don't think they can, or should, work within the confines of either of the two large parties we have today, so if they can grow this they could gain some real power. And perhaps then the focus will be on changing the lives of 25 million unemployed or underemployed people, tens of millions thrown out of their homes, 50 million without health insurance, 45 million in poverty or on food stamps, and bankers who drink champagne and laugh at everyone else while getting access to trillions of taxpayer dollars..

[defendandprotect]

28. Who would be against this ??? A very positive move by youth ---

I have fears for them -- it's heartbreaking at times to see them pushed around

by police and hurt --

My only question is whether THIS is the best way to go --

I'd like to see united actions a little differently done -- but I'm certainly not

sure that I'm right -- and hope they succeed!!

[Atypical Liberal]

51. It's about all that's left.

If you don't have a billion dollars you can't affect the game from the inside. So unless you are ready to pick up a rifle, this is about the last option.

[defendandprotect]

67. I'm thinking ... that that is ...

"fear-based" and "liberals have no place else to go" thinking ---

If we want change we have to challenge the way we think about things, as well --


For instance, ALL of emphasis of Citizens' United decision is on corporations buying

government --

but we're failing to recognize that couldn't happen unless we had members of Congress

and parties who were willing to SELL themselves --

So there are two sides of the street which require equal pressure and equal attention -- !!!


In 2010, with huge liberal voter dissatisfaction with Obama moves to the right on every issue,

contributions to the party were down -- as they are again currently --

And for every $7 the Repugs got from corporations, the Dems got $1 -- !!

Given that reality, how does it make sense for the Dems to continue to take corporate money?

Or for them to continue to turn from populist issues?

It's a false standing on both issues -- but it works for the corporate interests controlling the

party!


The Koch Bros. funded DLC controlled the party for more than 20 years, influencing the agenda

and selection of its candidates -- including its presidential candidates. We really don't know

how much of the party is still Koch Bros. and what may be left of the Dem Party, but we need

to find out in order to go forward, one way or the other. Currently, the THIRD WAY is controlling

the Democratic Party and moving it even further to the right. Imo, that requires our full time

attention.


But coming back to corporate money -- IF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY anounced to voters and the nation

that it would no longer take any corporate money -- with limits such as $250 from any citizen --

then I don't think the public would need to hear more debate than that!

So it's not just about our freeing ourselves from Citizens United, it's also about the Democratic

Party freeing itself -- and that issue is in their hands and our hands!


Granted, we also have to decide just how important and damaging it is for voters to have a

Democratic Party with so many millionaires and multi-millionaires members.

It's time for Americans to be much less trusting of our government officials -- FDR is long gone!


As for demonstrations -- there are also other ways to begin to show our unity --

Like all of us wearing a button every day -- from MEDICARE FOR ALL -- to any variety of other

buttons on issues --

We can also use the one hour "lights out" approach on issues --

Pulling our cars off the road for 15 minutes at a time at a given signal --

Buying or not buying gas on given days --

Slowing down on productivity -- gradually, but definitely --

Productivity is up 35% in the last decades while workers' salaries remained stagnant.

PUBLIC workers who had COLA's were making much larger salaries than those in private business.

I think bank/ATM/Credit cards are another way to make corporations aware we are watching --

and letting Congress know we will hold them resposnible -- Costs of using credit cards is immense

and adds substantially to every item we buy. In turn, if you put $1,000 into the bank the return

is but a tiny fraction of what banks are collectin in interest on credit cards.

Students/parents are still paying off student loans after decades -- we need a return to usuary

laws.

Short term strikes -- Calling a strike unexpectedly in different cities at different times or

the same time -- maybe only for a half an hour. Maybe 4:30 in the afternoon -- or 11:30 in

the morning?

We can also PLEDGE that we will not vote until the computers are removed and we return to

paper ballots and pen -- and hand counting!

And I'm sure many others would have lots of other ideas --


But most of all what we have to understand is we may not yet have a winning solution but there

are ways to fight back -- !!

[Atypical Liberal]

68. Not sure what is "fear based" about acknowleding the influence of wealth on our govt. n/t

[defendandprotect]

72. I think suggesting that this is our "last option" ....

beyond militancy is "fear based" -- and suggests what the DLC has been telling

Democratic voters -- i.e., "You have no place else to go--" --


If you don't have a billion dollars you can't affect the game from the inside. So unless you are ready to pick up a rifle, this is about the last option.



I think there are other options -- many of them --

[Atypical Liberal]

75. Like what?

I think there are other options -- many of them --

Like what?

[defendandprotect]

77. Like these ....

from my prior post --

It works better if you READ the post before you reply -- ROFL


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2018006&mesg_id=2023066

[Atypical Liberal]

79. Sorry...

You didn't grab me with the first paragraph, so I ignored the other page and a half.

[Atypical Liberal]

80. So now I have read it.

So now I have read it and basically you propose limiting contributions more than $250. I doubt this will fly as the people in charge want those contributions first of all, and they need them second of all - without them they will be blown away in elections.

The rest of your stuff sounded about as effective as the protests currently going on.

[defendandprotect]

81. So -- other than a rifle, what are your suggestions?

And, NO, my proposal was that the Dem Party should give up corporate money --

Evidently even when you think you're reading you're not -- ROFL


None of your comments "grab me" -- so probably won't be reading any more of them --

ROFL


Bye --

[truedelphi]

91. The only problem with what you are saying is that the Powers that Be

Would love it if we didn't vote.

I understand where you' re coming from when you make the statement, and I too have thought along those lines.

But it would be difficult to change anything as the Two Parties have created a situation in which we don't have any real way to end fascism. We can choose the Obama style of giving the Corporations everything they want, with a smile on his face as he does it, or the jack boot of the Rick Perry crowd, who well might put non-readers of the King James Bible in jail till they straighten out.And "God" hep yo if you are a witch or a gay person!

[iamthebandfanman]

31. they are probably all racists

since we have a black president and they arent happy...

didnt you know ?

</sarcasm>

[Fire Walk With Me]

32. Kick and Recommend!

[Safetykitten]

33. In my wildest dreams, I could not imagine someone thinking this is a bad thing.

[Ignis]

36. I hate to be dramatic, but ...

Some "futurists" would say that those young people you are referring to are the "bridging" generation.

:thumbsup:

I'm glad they've started earlier than most projections.

[Desertrose]

37. The "movement" is growing... check out "Occupy Together"

Occupytogether.org

[midnight]

39. K&R for the wall street occupiers... Thanks...

[chill_wind]

41. K & R.

Great song, too!

:applause:

[stevenleser]

42. They don't need a leader as much as they need a succinct message and goal.

It's really easy to criticize and dismiss a protest that has a disjointed or unclear message.

They need to condense what they are upset about into a simple 10 or less word sentence and do the same with what they want to see happen.

If they do that quickly and get folks who are able to articulate that well to the media, this can go somewhere.

[KurtNYC]

49. I went back to the groups who started this for answers

This explained a lot:

"New York City General Assemblies are an open, participatory and horizontally organized process through which we are building the capacity to constitute ourselves in public as autonomous collective forces within and against the constant crises of our times"

http://nycga.cc/who-we-are/

I think it is a very interesting concept and an evolution of what social organizing can be. This is the online generation expanding into the offline world -- occupying public space physically. The MSM is dead to them; it has no participatory role in horizontal organizing. 40 years ago it was all about getting on the 6:30 news with one message and 45 seconds of footage -- this is generation has been liberated from the tyranny of MSM "news" (paradoxically the biggest pool of potential converts and joiners are addicted to cable news).

Here is another tid bit I found enlightening:
http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/free/handsig.pdf

Perhaps there is video of the hand signals in use; I haven't seen it. This is type of process is new to most people and I think the MSM should cover this milestone in the online generation. There is a mix of online and offline communication going on -- the MSM so far seems to be kind of a confused spectator. This is big messy democracy in a new form.

The MSM is not a democratic medium -- it is a one to many model. This is many to many -- just like the internet.

I hope that others who are interested enough will learn more about the process which is being created and the methods for public meetings which are being taught. Confusion in the MSM (and here) may motivate people to do their OWN research or just go and see it for themselves.

[stevenleser]

52. The problem is, its not about me or other DUers. I can follow a pretty involved concept

What matters is, what is a large swath of the rest of the country going to be able to internalize and follow (and care enough about to internalize and follow).

If I could speak directly to the folks nominally in charge of the protest, I would beg them, develop one single sentence of 10 words or less that explains what is upsetting enough for them to protest and another sentence of 10 words or less explaining what changes they want.

[AnnieK401]

44. They give me hope.

Thanks for the post. This give me hope for the future.

[justiceischeap]

45. It seems to me they are becoming more focused as time passes

I think this started out as a grand idea and as time passes, they are getting advice from more seasoned activists and the 'mission' is becoming more cohesive. Yes, in the first few days their message seemed disjointed but now it appears as though they are pulling together and have a common message.

Keep in mind, these aren't seasoned activists who have been taught how to be activists, they're learning as they go and that is as important as the cohesive message everyone claims they are missing.

[pmorlan1]

47. I Love it

"We are occupying Wall Street because Wall Street is occupying DC."

I Love it!

And what can we say when we occupy DC?

We are occupying DC because Wall Street runs DC
If Wall Street can occupy DC so can the people

Come up with your own version because we will be occupying DC!

[harun]

53. If things look bad for us middle-aged folks, these 16-20 yrs are completely f*&cked.

I applaud their activism.

They are looking at upper education costs of > 100K, houses they can never save down payments for, no jobs, and no financing to start their own business's. Oh yah, not to mention no health care after 25.

[chervilant]

55. Our Peeps

for DAMNED sure!

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Margaret Mead, (1901 - 1978)

(emphasis mine)

When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it--always.


Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)

[zacherystaylor]

58. Who's criticizing the Occupy Wall St. Protests?

To the best of my knowledge there are few if any critics of the protestors except for those that have an incentive to support the status quo; although I'm sure there could and probably are many others. Some of these will almost certainly pretend not to do so for the real purposes since it may not seem as sincere. These may appear to be almost identical to many sincere protestors; however if they offer no acknowledgment of the serious problems with corporate corruption then I would be skeptical. As I indicated before I could always nitpick just about anything I wanted to but that shouldn't be the top priority unless there was a serious inefficiency and the criticism was designed to improve the way they accomplish their job.

Also if anyone is interested I came up with my own ideas about how people could help increase awareness of this nationwide; which I posted on another string.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2022376

And thanks to the person who provided this link which I will be adding to my blog:

http://occupytogether.org/

[femrap]

59. I am so glad to

see Americans out protesting what the Banksters are doing to us.

Bless them.

[amyrose2712]

61. +++

[Waiting For Everyman]

64. By Glen Greenwald - "What's behind the scorn for the Wall St. protests?"

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/09/28/protests/index.html

[bvar22]

65. Unified Message?

Main Street,
NOT Wall Street.


Wall Street is The Problem,
NOT The Solution.


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Uncle Joe]

69. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, FarLeftFist.:thumbsup:

[Crunchy Frog]

71. This country badly needs a revitalized left.

We can't just leave everything to the teabaggers and the milqetoast DLCers. I'm glad to see that there are so many young people involved.

[democrank]

73. They ARE our people.

[Octafish]

74. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

When I asked 'What would a victory here look like?' a 17yr old boy who chose to remain anonymous said "An awareness of being more self-sustaining individuals and less hyper-consumerism and...", then he was cut of by his girl friend (girlfriend?) who said "Less corporate rule in our Govt, less fascism in our Govt and true Democracy for all individuals!". The boy then stated "We are occupying Wall St. because Wall St. is occupying DC".

Talk about restoring faith in our nation's young people...!

[TBF]

76. "They are not protesting to change the way we currently do business in this world"

Then they ought to rethink their goals. Changing the system is the only chance we got - Capitalism will kill us all (including the planet).

I am 100% in solidarity with the protestors and I trust they'll figure out what it's going to take. I would bet dealing with the NYPD has been an interesting and enlightening experience for some of them.

[socialist_n_TN]

89. And that's the crux of the matter.........

They've made one small jump in consciousness, realizing that economics, politics, and power are all comingled. Hopefully they'll take it to the logical conclusion that nothing will really change until the whole system has been changed. If they settle for crumbs from the capitalist table, they will lose.

The next step would be for the unions and the rest of the working class to actually DO something in support of these guys. Like militant strikes and workplace occupations. Something to keep the cops busy so they can't JUST go after the protesters.

Then they need to ACTUALLY and PHYSICALLY occupy Wall Street. And shut it down.

[TBF]

90. Shut it down -

Amen, brother.

[JackRiddler]

78. The "Too Many Demands" complaint comes from small corporate-media-fed minds...

who just can't imagine what would be wrong right now requiring radical changes in this society. Pathetic.

"Occupy Wall Street" is already clear enough.

This is about challenging the financial oligarchy's control of all of the country's major governing and economic institutions. Their frauds, their plunder, their austerity, their wars, their class war on the 99 percent. That goes together with a lot of other issues. Tough for those who don't get it.

As someone upthread said, "We are occupying Wall Street because Wall Street is occupying Washington DC."

Clear enough?

[stuntcat]

82. Yah! Seems like "too many demands" is actually ONE big demand, a lot more power to the citizens

it's so clear why this is happening

[mmonk]

87. "We are occupying Wall St. because Wall St. is occupying DC".

I love that answer. :-)