Some thoughts on the "disorganized message" coming from the Wall Street protest.

[WilliamPitt]

I went to every major Iraq protest in NYC and DC during the Bush administration, and if there's one thing I remember above all else, it is the disjointed, fragmented, (dare I say) schizophrenic nature of the message.

You and I and a lot of people might have gone to those actions with Iraq on our minds, but the message from the podium invariably was a mishmash of Free-Mumia-Vegetarianism-Israel-Sucks-Chemtrails-LIHOP-MIHOP-Palestine-Save-The-Whales-Fur-Is-Murder-Oh-Yeah-P.S.-Iraq etc.

**Especially** the A.N.S.W.E.R rallies. The way they got so many people to show up was to open the podium to virtually any and every left/progressive issue-driven group; those groups, in turn, organized their own people to show up, and voila! Big crowd. But speaking for myself, listening to the speeches with Iraq as my main motivator, one after the other after the other, was like being inside someone else's headache.

There's a good goddam reason why those protests - arguably the largest and most consistent protest actions in the history of the country - were dismissed out of hand: because they were a tidal wave of Leftist noise that dealt perhaps 20% of the time with the war itself. The rest was public masturbation for groups that never get to address so many people at once.

The folks throwing down on Wall Street are (by some people's estimation) totally disorganized and slightly embarrassing...now. The onus is not on them to get it right. They're there, doing it. The onus is on us to pile in with them, to make the crowds and the central message unavoidable and un-ignorable.

It's not them. It's us. The goal of the Wall Street protest is to get the rock rolling down the hill. That's done; the rest is up to us.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. That's for damn sure, my dear Will...

The rest is indeed up to us.

[steve2470]

9. k&r ! nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

2. SO YOU'RE OK WITH POLICE BRUTALITY?

Sorry, just getting that in before someone else invariably does.

Spot-on analysis.

[pnorman]

You got that right!

n/t

[rbnyc]

29. LMAO nt

[Avalux]

3. K&R. You're absolutely spot on.

They are there, doing it. What are we doing?

I'm joining them in Austin on Oct. 6th. :kick:

[DireStrike]

4. Yes, everyone is waiting for the right bandwagon to jump on

instead of building the bandwagon themselves.

I would urge people in NY to head down to the occupation. The demands are still being democratically debated. If you are not in NY, see if there is an occupation near you, or start one if there isn't.

[librechik]

5. when I see someone complain about the disorganized nature of the protests

I get really disgusted. The protest exists partly to allow folks (finally) to get together and organize themselves. Disorganization is the natural state prior to organization. Online sources allow documentation fo the efforts. That is ongoing and clear, for those who want to read "why"

It's like criticizing a souffle when you're only just now beating the egg whites. The rest will come together and get baked!

... And then disintegrate again. And then boil together again.

That is life today in the postmodern perfect future. Gotta love the passion and support our children, because that's who we are and how we can progress.

[Dreamer Tatum]

10. To carry your analogy through: they are beating the eggs while inside the oven.

The protest itself does jack shit. The coverage of the protest, which depends in part upon its cohesion, is what matters.

And there is no cohesion.

[avaistheone1]

6. k&r

[sufrommich]

7. Agree. k&r. nt

[Bragi]

8. I agree completely

"It's not them. It's us. The goal of the Wall Street protest is to get the rock rolling down the hill. That's done; the rest is up to us."

Here are two Wall Street-relevant demands I think they should embrace:

- The White House and Congress should move to make illegal the enormous skim payments Wall Street bankers and brokers have conspiratorially given to each another for decades now as payment for routine processing of financial instruments.

- The President should instruct the Justice Department to investigate the 2008 heist by the Wall Street bankers and brokers with a view to impounding the proceeds of their past thievery.

That would be a good, focused set of demands.

[AnotherDreamWeaver]

31. Do you know if there is a site that shows the discussions that go on?

I can't download video of the meetings or watch the live streaming, but if there is a site that has a summary of the issues being brought before the 'council meetings' I understand happen in the evenings, I would read them. Maybe there is a site you can add your two points on. Maybe you would find them already there. They could be posted and rated by visitors.

Many Blessings on all those in NY, and all those joining occupytogether.org/

Peace,
ADW

[NOLALady]

11. Hell Yeah!!!

[piratefish08]

12. you're 100% right. as usual.

[Odin2005]

13. This is something I've been saying for a while. Protests HAVE TO stay on topic.

Any protest in which ANSWER becomes involved becomes a worthless joke with every group and their dog pushing their pet issues no matter how irrelevant. And not only that, those folks really do think that their pet issue is the most important issue.

A protest must be overwhelming, it must stick to a single topic, and it must be willing to break the law and ignore the official "free speech zones".

[xiamiam]

14. i like the way this is progressing. its not militant..its mostly young kids knowing something is

not right..and hopeful enough to believe they can make a difference. Unfortunately, it is on their shoulders because we are too jaded or cynical to actually get out and do what these kids have just spent 9 days doing. Their parents will eventually join them as well as you and I. Bless them...and their peaceful hopefulness.

[fasttense]

42. Disorganization is not a flaw.

Have you been to a teabagger protest? Sure they have nice busses, coffee and donuts but their message is so jumbled that you don't know for sure what they are protesting. They are so half-baked that the only consistent message coming out is that they are racists. Everything from Obama's birth certificate, taxes, smaller government, save our guns, support the troops to the federal government staying out of Medicare and Social Security is jumbled up and thrown into the mix.

And yet..... The teabaggers get all the coverage they ever want even if only 10 people show up. They are never dismissed out of hand even when their sign are misspelled. Talk about a tidal wave of noise and public masturbation, the teabaggers have that down to a science. They get all the publicity their cholesterol clogged hearts want because they are there mimicking a real protest.

The success of a protest has very little to do with getting out a consistent, singular message. It has to do with the dissatisfaction of a large portion of American society and just getting out there in the streets.

[OHdem10]

15. I remember the Anti-War Marches and some were very very large.

The longer the Parade of People the more different signs
supporting different issues.

[gratuitous]

16. It's not just us or the protestors

It's also a popular media heavily invested in the status quo. The anti-war marches I was involved with when the Dim Son was just beginning his saber-rattling were pretty focused affairs, at least from the organization standpoint. The speakers were far more than 20% against the war; more like 95%. The only way the popular media could possibly miss the message was through willful ignorance. And so it was. Footage invariably featured the anarchist kids with their black face coverings or the nut in the rainbow fright wig. The subtext was unmistakable: "Ho, ho, ho, look at the overprivileged bored kids and the 60s holdover. Not serious, nothing to see here." Unfortunately, we can't dictate to the media what they'll cover.

At the very least, I have resolved not to snipe from the sidelines about what someone else is doing? If I have a different or better idea, I should pursue that course and let others proceed as they see fit.

[starroute]

17. They've struck me as far more focused than the big anti-war rallies

I haven't seen a single "free Tibet" sign, for example. They seem totally focused on economic issues and the disenfranchisement of the 99%. Whatever fuzziness there is in their message is more the result of their not crystallizing around a single demand -- and I suspect that is because the *real* demands are too radical to articulate easily within the prevailing consensus.

Put it this way: If all they wanted was stronger regulation, more campaign finance reform, or the overturn of Citizens United, they could just come out and say so. But it's as apparent to them as it is to many of us that the system is far more broken than that. It's no longer possible to just slap on another blowout patch and send this old junker back out on the road.

What I see coming together out of all the scattered statements -- plus what is unsaid but is suggested by their actions -- is more of a critique or even a manifesto than it is a simple demand. As nearly as I can pin it down, it amounts to something like this:

- The power and wealth are all in the hands of the top 1%, leaving the other 99% disenfranchised. We have been turned into renters in our own homes, illegal aliens in our own country.

- The government and media are under the control of the top 1% as well. This means that necessary reforms and regulations either cannot be enacted, will be watered down, or will be circumvented. Reform as a process has failed.

- Economic insecurity, together with an increasing intrusiveness on the part of employers into the private activities of employees or potential employees, is being used to discourage ordinary citizen activism on the part of a broad majority of Americans. This is particularly apparent when compared to the citizens of most European nations.

- The coercive powers of the state -- both the police powers at home and the military abroad -- are increasingly being used to shore up the power of the elite and suppress dissent. Overt dissent will be tolerated only to the extent that it appears toothless or can be used to reinforce the dominant narrative.

- Given all these forces arrayed against them, ordinary Americans are among the most powerless people on the planet -- seemingly helpless either to improve their own situation or to halt the destructive juggernaut of their nation's foreign policies.

- The dominant power structure can no longer be reformed, nor can it be overthrown. But our last, best hope may lie in small groups that do not confront it directly but behave in ways that implicitly deny its authority over them. Such groups might look a little like 1960's hippies, but with far more of a political edge -- perhaps most closely resembling the hippie-antiwar alliance that flourished briefly between the march on the Pentagon in November 1967 and Woodstock in August 1969.

- The real message of Occupy Wall Street is thus something like this: Do as you will. Live as you choose. If they slap you down, rise up elsewhere. If they chase you out, move over to the next block or the next city and keep going. Have courage, stay strong, love one another, and behave as free people no matter who tries to make you slaves.

[WilliamPitt]

18. "Free Tibet"

Forgot that one.

:)

You = exactly right.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. Yeah, that was a REAL big problem with the Iraq stuff.

I can't count the number of people I encountered down at the SF protests who were simply flabbergasted... "Uh, I thought I was here to protest the Iraq War, what's with all the other crap?"

[Gin]

20. I have a problem focusing on one issue (there are so many)

one I could focus on is...End Corporate Personhood....

I agree that they are laying the foundation...maybe this idea will be a building block.

[ellisonz]

41. Down with Citizen's United and the Roberts court!

:fistbump:

[Cleita]

21. On the good news sidw, the movement is spreading to other

cities nationwide. I myself am looking into the possibility of joining one that is close by me.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Up

Cuz it matters.

[Fire Walk With Me]

23. Republicans have us so afraid of change that they're winning. Protesting awakens those muscles of

choice...

[mod mom]

24. Amen. From someone who always included stolen elections into the mishmash.

:hi:

[Raksha]

25. K & R - you said it!

"The goal of the Wall Street protest is to get the rock rolling down the hill. That's done; the rest is up to us."

[Tsiyu]

26. How can you choose one thing to make right

when so much is wrong with Wall Street?

Some people, as I said earlier, need theme music and sparkles and a bullet list in order to be drawn in. And they still don't get it.

Other people need food and jobs and homes. They get it, believe me.

I think the majority in this nation realize what the demands are - Wall Street must be held to account for the mess we are in. Only the very comfortable are questioning what this is all about.

(Sidenote:In the 60's, protests were often amalgamations of anti-war, feminist, civil rights protesters, in case the youth here did not know this.)

BTW, kudos to "Here and Now" on NPR for bringing up the protests and interviewing one of the protest spokespersons today. About fucking time.

[rbnyc]

28. The Strong Kids Campaign

The YMCA of Greater New York, and many other YMCA's have been using the brand Strong Kids Campaign for their annual appeal for many years.

The YMCA does a lot more than provide programs for kids, and the funds raised go to many different programs for youth and adults. The YMCA has an exceptionally broad mission and a broad social impact. It's very hard to message about all the things the Y does and why they are all important - and why the Y is even a 501(c)3 in the first place.

The branding of the annual campaign is very important to building support for the Y. The focus of the branding is on kids and programs for kids because that is the most powerful message. That doesn't mean that the Y has abandoned its other programs. but it knows it needs to put its most powerful and consensus building message forward as the face of its campaign in order to grow support.

This is what we need. It's not so much about choosing one issue as it is about, frankly, branding.

[starroute]

30. "Hold Wall Street accountable!" sounds like a great starting-point

Basically, pinning the economic meltdown on the speculators and not on the "irresponsible" ordinary folk.

Hearings, trials, prison terms for the guilty.

Breaking up the big banks. Cracking down on insider trading.

Regulations to prevent the psychopaths with too much money from turning the necessities of life, such as food, into one more thing to gamble on. Use of the tax code and other tools to insure that it will be invested productively instead -- especially in green energy and other urgent needs.

And transparency when it comes to corporate money and decision-making equal to the transparency we've been trying to demand of our government.

In short, if they want to own the planet, they have to do a responsible job of running it. And if they can't or won't run it properly, they have to hand it back to those who will.

[Enthusiast]

37. Nice post.

And I agree.

[Eddie Haskell]

38. Not a single conviction for the crime of the century!

Hell, no one's even been indicted. By comparison, there were over 10,000 referrals and over 1000 convicted in the S&L crisis. What's the message? How about this?

We want justice!

[Eddie Haskell]

39. WE WANT JUSTICE !

End our two-tiered justice system and prosecute white collar crime.

[rbnyc]

27. This is important.

I'm planning to spend some time on Wall Street and in DC over the next couple of weeks, and I've been talking to a lot of progressives, here and in my community about why I am doing that, and why they should do it too. What I am hearing is that people - progressive people who want change and want to be able to do something to make it happen and know that just voting isn't enough - don't know what Occupy Wall Street is all about, they don't know what the October 2011 movement is about, they don't know what Occupy Together is about.

What I've been saying is that there is a laundry list of issues, but the one underlying current is that we oppose corporatism. We recognize that corporate interests have deeply damaged our democracy and that it can't go on this way.

Once people hear the anti-corporatist message, they are right on board. They know what I'm doing and why and they support it.

It's hard to build consensus, but we do need to get our talking points together. I think Chris Hedges is doing a pretty damn good job of it.

[lunatica]

32. Yesterday on the Norman Goldman radio show

Someone from the Occupy Wall Street protests asked him for some good facts they can use regarding the Financial mess we're in. He actually came up with some that were very good as did his callers.

1. 400 people, not families but people own 80% of the wealth

2. If the wealthiest people own 80% of the wealth why are they only paying 20% of the taxes?

This last one comes from recent arguments from the Right that the poor rich people pay 20% of the country's taxes. Norman Golman says they should be paying 80% of the taxes if they have 80% of the wealth.

[louslobbs]

33. K&R

Lou

[Ignis]

34. Great point. Have you seen Goodman's column on this issue?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/21/occupy-wall-street-amy-goodman

[Remember Me]

35. Uh, Not really ...

There's a good goddam reason why those protests - arguably the largest and most consistent protest actions in the history of the country - were dismissed out of hand:

Yah, it's called national mainstream-media-as-gatekeeper of the official story. They didn't get any media coverage and it was NOT because the message was blurred. The message was plenty clear.

You may have a point that the protest message was disorganized and going forward it needs to be trimmed and sleeked and made much more pointed, succinct and precise but you're way wrong pinning that lack of organization as THE reason for the lack of media coverage, and you damn well know it.

But really, that argument never held water to start with. Everyone protesting against the war WAS against the war, and if they had other issues as well, absolutely no harm done. And the reason I believe that so strongly is that the argument originated with those who would discredit us anyway, is weak on its face, but sadly got parroted then (and even more sadly NOW) by those who bleat out such arguments as if they had some merit. This one didn't. Very little of what the right says ever does.

[Enthusiast]

36. Kicked and fucking recommended.

Right on!

[Eddie Haskell]

40. I was there too.

Back then, some avoided the rallies because they didn't agree with all of the organizers politics. But if you wait for 100% agreement, there'll never be a protest. Protests will always be disorganized, but they spawn movement. It's not the message, it's the masses that get things started.

[ellisonz]

43. THANK YOU WILL PIT!

"Any man more right than his neighbors constitutes a majority of one." - Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience.


:yourock:

[Warren Stupidity]

44. So according to you, had the anti-war protests been more focused

then the media would have paid attention. Seriously? What a load of crap. There was no way in hell that the corruptorate media was going to do anything but dismiss the protests from 2001 on. 'The media' did not go out to cover the massive marches and to their horror discover a Free Mumia poster and quickly turn off their cameras. The largest demonstrations in decades were ignored by policy and that policy was not based on the coherence or lack thereof of the message from the protest.

You got the last part right: the onus is on us. But don't expect that somehow a coherent message will emerge, or that if only we do this or that, suddenly the blathering idiots on tv will pay attention, or the New York Times will put us above the fold. This revolution is not going to be televised, they learned their lessons well and will not allow that to happen. 20 well funded bagnutters will continue to get feature coverage, 100,000 people demanding justice will continue to be ignored.

[sweetapogee]

45. a quote from

the OP "The folks throwing down on Wall Street are (by some people's estimation) totally disorganized and slightly embarrassing...now."

This is the problem identified. Good observation.

[Lorien]

46. The difference between Right and Left wing protests is in the messaging

by the leaders of both; Right Wingers rally around a few simple talking points that any knuckle dragger can understand, even if the talking point is delusional BS. "We have to fight them over there so we won't have to fight them over here", etc. The Left is NEVER "on message"; we don't have one because our party no longer has any kind of coherent platform or any unifying leaders. The message of occupy Wall Street should be dead simple; put need before greed by taking our government away from corporations and making it a Democracy of, by and for the people. Need before greed, Democracy over fascism. It's not complicated. Do they want specifics? Overturn the citizens united ruling, send those who crashed the economy to jail, re-regulate the banks and demand that they pay the bailouts back (with interest), and demand campaign finance reform.