The risks in protesting are very high now.

[Are_grits_groceries]

I am not advocating not protesting. I think everybody better be as aware as they can of the ramifications. When the Patriot Act was passed initially, it was onerous enough. I still don't believe we know what all of it entailed. There was a taste of it at the GOP convention when some people were charged under the much broader statutes that was being used to arrest and prosecute them . They were caught in the huge terrorism net as it is defined.

Once you are in that net, your rights and other expected protections are not necessarily going to be recognized. It is a very neat way for the PTB to wrap up people who oppose them and control the story. If their arrest are questioned, gawd knows what 'evidence' will be used against them.

In addition, when the Patriot Act was approved again, there were changes. Two Senators have hinted at how dangerous the new Act is and how it reaches into domestic surveillance. They could not be explicit because it was a classified briefing, and I'm sure they were warned thoroughly. I have no idea what is in this Black Law that apparently supercedes all of our other laws and branches of government with the approval of people who should know better.

DHS took the RICO act that had worked so successfully to net a lot of people, and morphed into their own version on steroids to build their terrorism trap. RICO was passed to provide much stiffer penalties for people and groups who were individually going to get charged with much lesser crimes. Using RICO, if a conspiracy among people could be proven, the punishments were much harsher. Good idea, huh? The problem is it began to seep into every are of law in order to force people to plead to admit guilt to lesser crimes they might not have not been convicted of in exchange for taking the onerous RICO sentences off the table.

I know Michael Vick is anathema to many. He eventually pled guilty to avoid the chance he would be brought up on RICO charges related to interstate gambling and dog rings. That may warmth cockles of some hearts, but there are others you don't hear about who are trapped by RICO and shouldn't be. They may not have been up to any good, but neither did they deserve the threat of major RICO penalties.

DHS and all the others who fall into the 'security' areas of government are squeezing protestors in the same wy. In addition, the Patriot Act is much scarier because as I have stated, who the hell knows what is in it, how it's applied, or what rights you have once you fall under those statutes. It is SECRET.

Just be aware that it is really a cowardly new world that you are now entering especially when you protest. I fully believe that it is a much more dangerous time for those who speak out. At Kent State, innocent people were shot. At this time, the result y be no less deadly but much more quiet.

[Fire Walk With Me]

1. I know that I'm on someone's list for posting Guy Fawkes imagery but the point is

the risk of not changing the course of the world now overrides such considerations. They are at the verge of tipping the world's economies into utter disaster...from which they'll power grab like you can't imagine.

Protesting often occurs when people have nothing left to lose. This time, it is to head off a trend that would leave everyone in that state.

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. As I said,

I am not advocating NOT protesting. I just believe those involved and those who try to help or protect their rights will find the world has changed if the charges fall under certain laws. New methods and legal procedures to attempt need to be worked out now.

What happened in earlier years is softball compared to this. What may happen could be nasty and unbelievable. I don't know, and even the Senate can't tell what they do know. Hell, Star Chambers may be back in some form. The PTB won't allow it to get nearly as messy and as widely reported as the uprisings in Libya, Iran and other places were.

I don't trust any of them and their 'laws' in place to protect us from terrorism. *SNORT* They are protecting their ill-gotten gains and power from the underlings who want more gruel. They have neatly scared too many people into their own trap.

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. Yes, definitely. The "Patriot Act" is definitely there for a reason, to create new definitions and

laws against the people of the country. Too late, many are coming to realize...note that there are pro-bono attorneys working on getting the protesters released and a fund is being set up for this as well.

And the most important part of the film V for Vendetta, aside from the reminder that the true power is and always will be in the hands of the People, is that it is essential to say NO, and to mean NO to those who would take everything.

Tunisia, Egypt, and others overthrew the tyrants =peacefully=.

[mike_c]

2. this is a vitally important discussion....

Having it is one more step toward action.

[Little Star]

3. Good points!...

The Patriot Act is the worse thing that has happened when it comes to our freedoms (as the R's say), never mind terrorists who hate us for our freedoms.

Maybe thats what the plan is.....

If we have no freedoms then they won't hate us anymore. :eyes:

[BlueIris]

5. A cowardly new world indeed. nt

[gateley]

6. There's a DU post that some Wall Street protesters have

been arrested and maybe injured? I e-mailed Bloomberg's office to comment on it, but had a hell of a time finding contact info like phone and fax #'s on the Mayor's site. I posted a HELP to try to find additional info.

But that's just to phone and fax and e-mail -- you are so RIGHT about the dangers of actually getting out there and protesting now. We're treated like Enemies of the State. Frightening.

[RKP5637]

8. Sadly, many good Americans are now enemies of the state, many by default, and

they don't even know it, yet.

[Dawson Leery]

9. READ THIS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1984736

LEO and company are NOT your friend.

[Are_grits_groceries]

12. I have not felt that I would be assured

of getting a fair shake if I was involved in an incident, even as a witness. If you are one of the first people on the scene to report a crime, you may find yourself in a surreal situation. Unless they have some clear cut evidence and suspects, you will be high on their list to investigate. Your statements made to help in an investigation may end up hurting you.

There is a thread here on DU that has links to video clips made by a law professor and a retired policeman. They explain in detail why you shouldn't talk to the police. They give examples that show how statements can be interpreted differently.

There has always been an us vs them mentality between law enforcement and people not on the job. That is the nature of the situations that occur, and a fine line has to be walked on both sides to keep it under some control. IMHO it is reaching extreme levels and the nebulous statutes on the books that apply in some cases lead to wider abuses and the resulting backlash. Minorities have been catching this kind of uncontrolled hell for a long time. They are still on the short end of the stick, but that short end is reaching more and more peope.

[KT2000]

10. Our community in NW WA

is crawling with Border Patrol agents who have nothing to do. Yes - that is intimidating.

[coalition_unwilling]

11. In December of 2001, I was compelled to fly on business from

Los Angeles to Chicago.

I had begun protesting as soon as the bombs started falling on Afghanistan in November of 2001. My wife and I both saw what we thought were Los Angeles Police Department officers filming our protests from atop buidlings along the parade routes and actually joked about it.

But on my return trip from Chicago back to LA, I was stopped at the gate, taken aside and thoroughly frisked and my belongings patted down.

I've often wondered whether I was on a list as a result of exercising my First Amendment rights to speak out against Bush and his Junta. But I suppose I'll never know for sure.

I do know that I never flew by choice for personal or pleasure reasons until after Bush left office. When I next flew, in April of 2010, I had no problems in either direction.

Have also had job offers extended to me, then mysteriously withdrawn at the last minute for stated reasons that seem highly dubious. I've reluctantly concluded, as a result, that I'm probably on some of the lists Big Brother maintains for God knows what reason.

America was a nice idea while it lasted. We're in the end stages of it now.