Just a reminder on what a "small business" is...

[TreasonousBastard]

It's not just your local deli or gas station-- you can have up to 500 employees and/or 32 million gross revenue and still be "small"

http://www.sba.gov/content/what-sbas-definition-small-business-concern

(And you can be a sole proprietor, partnership, LLC, or any number of types of corporation...)

So, when the arguments start over "small business" it pays to understand which ones they're talking about.

[Paper Roses]

1. I agree that there should be some delineation. Many in my town

are one or two person operations. Hard to put them in the same league as 500 and call all of them small business.
My town is suffering badly from the economy. Small shops with specially chosen merchandise. The traffic we used to see is gone. I guess the customers are off to the malls where they might find something a little less expensive.
It is sad to see the 'for rent' signs all over. Sadder yet to see the streets with no traffic. The merchants are trying. The customers are just not there.

[Shagbark Hickory]

4. ...

( \_/ )
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Just testing my memory here, disregard.

[alc]

2. good point

Most of my experience which I've posted has been in the <10 employee size but I've worked in a few 50-100 and one that grew from 15 to over 200. Things definitely change around 70-80 employee range in the companies I've been in but they're still considered "small business".

[sam11111]

3. Co ops can do everything they do - without abusive bosses

eg Co ops NOW do

Refinery in McPherson KS

Electric co ops

Grocery co ops

Auto parts factories (Mondragon Spain)

Credit unions

Toothbrush and litebulb factories - Sweden

All the parts of an economy:

Production
Distribution
Repair
Banking

Oh and also FULL wages..true co ops are owned by the workers not a rich boss. Amazing that they are still legal.

[Shagbark Hickory]

5. there still can be some corruption and problems with their directors but for the most part

I'd agree.

[sam11111]

9. FIRE any bad director: Co ops can do that: in a business you cannot

Economic democracy

Vs

Economic dictatorship

--------------------
Co op

Vs

Corporation

[Shagbark Hickory]

11. The bad director may be doing what is best for the bottom line (and it's membership)

but doing something that is not best for the community as a whole.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

6. Bechtel Corp, the largest construction Co on earth is considered a small business.

Because there are fewer than 500 stockholders.

[blindpig]

7. A Chamber of Commerce definitation...

What bullshit.

I think to the majority of us in the real world 'small' might be up to a dozen or so employees and a business in which the owner actually works.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. In the really "real world" you're dealing with financing, corporate charters...

tax rules, regulatory authorities, zoning rules, and many other things that have nothing to do with what the majority would like to think.

[blindpig]

15. Things that any truly small operator has to deal with too

Ain't nothing hard about that stuff, you take it as it comes and get help with the rest.

It is exceedingly misleading, we are supposed to sympathize with companies which have a 7 or 8 figure gross. Mebbe call them medium business, but let's not convolute them with the corner grocery store.

[unblock]

8. are franchises considered small businesses?

so that half (or whatever percentage it is) of all mcdonald's stores are "small businesses"?

[TreasonousBastard]

13. Most franchise owners fit the "small" definfition, even if corporate isn't.

[unblock]

14. that then is very silly, because most franchises don't act like independent businesses.

yes, they have their own books and a franchise can go bankrupt without bringing down corporate, etc.

but from an economist's perspective, a franchise isn't a particularly independent business, and mostly should be treated like a branch of corporate. the difference in compensation and bankruptcy protections is not hugely relevant economically. the goods and services provided, the jobs created, and the overall economic impact is pretty much the same.

can YOU tell which mcdonald's stores are corporate and which are franchises?

[unblock]

10. here's my definition: any business that was forced to close by big-box mega-corp hegemony

this might be overly broad, but probably at least 95% accurate....

[ljm2002]

16. Excellent point...

...and it is yet another way our national discourse is warped. I don't know who decided on the definition of "small business", but clearly most of us would not identify 500 employees / 32 million revenue as "small". But the politicians can get up there and talk about "small businesses", and they know damned well what they are talking about and they also know that when most of us hear that phrase, we think of the mom 'n' pop businesses that have maybe 5 to 10 employees and under $1M in revenue. So they play on our natural sympathies for these small businesspeople, while chortling to themselves -- they know damned well whose interests they are promoting.

[DrunkenBoat]

17. Yes, when the PTB talk about small business, they mean what we think of as large regional businesses

our idea of small business isn't even on their radar.

[William769]

18. K&R.