A Public Option would have been 15% cheaper than private insurance at most

[banned from Kos]

I realize DUers hate the private insurers (with good reason).

But to hold such a grudge over 10-15% of your insurance premiums is ridiculous. Especially since the WHOLE BILL would have died by holding out for something Joe L and Ben Nelson were NEVER going to let happen.

Instead - we have exchanges and Medicaid for 16 million newly eligible.


Just a reality check!

[no limit]

1. The idea the bill would have died or that joe lieberman had anything to do with it is a lie

See my thread from a few hours ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1937641

They only needed 50 votes in the senate. They simply decided they didn't want the public option.

Also, where do you get your 15% figure from?

[Literate Dragon]

23. Untrue

It is not true that they only needed 50 votes in the Senate (presumably you mean with Biden casting a tie-breaker). The reason that the modifications to the Senate bill passed by the House could pass with only 51 votes is because of the use of reconciliation, but that isn't a catch-all. The only modifications that could be passed that way were financing changes. The public option would have been a substantive change, could not have been passed by reconciliation, and would have been treated as a new bill. It would have been subject to filibuster. That's why the House didn't include it in the sidecar.

[no limit]

36. No, what you said is untrue. COBRA and SCHIP were both passed using reconciliation

[Enthusiast]

50. Why are you here pushing right wing lies?

Nothing would have been more cost effective than a public option so it would indeed have qualified for budget reconciliation.

[elocs]

26. Your own thread. You believe your OP, your opinion, was irrefutably persuasive?

It's easy to claim they could have easily passed a healthcare bill with the public option using reconciliation, but it's way harder to prove it. So, where's the proof that it could have been done other than simply because you claim they should have done it that way?

One of DU's biggest difficulties is in believing that if you really, really want something to happen, then it should happen regardless of reality.

[no limit]

37. Funny you say that to me here but when I responded to your actual argument in that thread...

you never responded. What happened?

I'm talking about this where I went through your argument point by point at which point you promptly disappeared:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1937641&mesg_id=1938461

[Enthusiast]

49. "Also, where do you get your 15% figure from?"

It's another made up right wing "fact".

[villager]

2. speaking of reality checks -- link to your assertion?

n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[banned from Kos]

8. I am deducting the industry average of the entire

Orwellian named "medical loss ratio" delta.

Insurers pay about 80% of their revenue on claims - Medicare 95%.

[Vincardog]

14. Insurance carries an average 27% just in sales commissions Medicare carries 7% overhead

[villager]

16. Ah, so the assertion comes from your own private "deductions" then

n/t

[Enthusiast]

51. Private deductions

work great for Rush Limbaugh and Anne Colter types.

[LeftyMom]

39. You're comparing private insurance with Medicare? Medicare covers the old and the sick,

Private insurance drops them when their care gets expensive. Adding younger, healthier patients would make Medicare look even better.

[banned from Kos]

43. I am comparing their pay out ratio only.

An 80% pay ratio is the same for a 20 year old and an 80 year old.

80%.

[LeftyMom]

44. You're missing my point.

You can't compare the numbers because the huge differences in patient age and health mean they are in no way comparable.

[Enthusiast]

52. It's meaningless

except for trying to mislead us.

[EOTE]

47. Even if your numbers are right, your math is off.

The difference between 80% and 95% is not 15%. It's 18.75%. That's a significant difference, almost 1/5th. You want to look at it another way? Insurers have 400% of the overhead compared to Medicare, 20% vs. 5%.

[frazzled]

4. Not getting a bill passed at all would make insurance continue to rise by double digits

It's another thing to put in people's pipes to smoke.

[banned from Kos]

9. Incorrect - the bill requires a minimum claim pay-out for private insurers

Which is a reason to support the bill.

[frazzled]

20. My post WAS in support of the bill.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[banned from Kos]

27. You are right - I stand corrected - thanks for the reminder

I make mistakes too.

[Bluenorthwest]

5. We will be the only nation ever to mandate the purchase of

for profit products. Why should their be even a dime's profit from those products? Got a reason? The President said the companies 'deserve to profit' but he never said why, or what they did to earn that state of entitlement to the funds of the public under government duress. Why do you think they deserve profits they are denied by all other nations with similar forms of law?

[pnorman]

6. AFAIK, PO never made it out of Committee.

n/t

[no limit]

11. It didn't need to. The house could have added it using reconciliation.

Using the amendment process.

[Literate Dragon]

25. As noted above

you're mistaken here. Reconciliation is limited as to what sorts of things it can be used for. The amendments passed by the House and that the Senate passed by reconciliation were all changes to financing, taxing and budgetary matters of the sort reconciliation is intended for. The public option would have been a substantial change and could not have been passed using reconciliation.

[no limit]

38. 2 words. SCHIP and a COBRA

either explain those or stop repeating something that is clearly false.

[Enthusiast]

54. "clearly false" = right wing lies.

[fascisthunter]

46. It was off the TABLE from the beginning

[pnorman]

56. In the minds of many here at DU,

it was most definitely "Off The Table"! And in many of those same minds, the "sellout to his Corporate Overlords" began very early in his administration --- like the selection of the Convocation Speaker at the Inauguration! (sigh!)

[fascisthunter]

57. it's really frustrating

[pnorman]

58. Same here!

n/t

[Mimosa]

7. Heck yes!!!!!!

My rec didn't work. *grrrr*

[PA Democrat]

10. Spoken like someone who has NO CLUE what those of us face who

have to buy individual policies. 10- 15 % translates into $2400 - $3000 per year for us.


:puke:

[Mimosa]

12. I misunderstood the OP's phrasing

PA Democrat, I'm doing without insurance until 2014. Can't now afford it, since premiums are approaching $900 a month for me for a hi deductible type policy even under the state plan for those with pre-existing conditions.

[PA Democrat]

19. I'm so sorry to hear of your problems.

:hug:


I've found that many people who haven't had to try to get health insurance on their own have no idea of the costs.

To get a medically underwritten policy from my insurance company (which is the only thing that even approaches affordability) there were 2 pages of conditions that would disqualify you from being accepted.

[banned from Kos]

13. You pay $30,000 annually in premiums?

Your family must be filled with pre-existing conditions.

The Bill will eventually help you too. I wish you nothing but better health going forward.

[PA Democrat]

17. You need to do some homework before you pooh-pooh

the staggering cost of health insurance for people who have to buy their own policies, whether because they are self-employed or don't get it through an employer. $2,000 a month for a family is not unusually high.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. I'd just like to chime in that you did not reply to my post

Which did involve direct questions to you, the OP. I will not characterized that, but I will point it out in passing.

[banned from Kos]

30. I cannot defend the mandate on any terms.

Maybe a "greater good". Without a mandate letting the uninsured die is financially logical though.

[Maine_Nurse]

45. $1400.00 per month single 24 yo healthy male in Maine. And that...

is with a $10k deductible. You should see the rates as you get older. That is for individually purchased coverage (we only have 3 insurers that offer it). With the rates we have here COBRA is hardly ever used since max unemployment compensation is something like $280 per week. In 2003 when my new wife was laid off, her COBRA premiums would have been 75% of her unemployment compensation (Max $210 at the time). People just can't do that.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. Profit V. Compassion

:think:

[bemildred]

21. 15% of insurance premiums is one hell of lot of money. nt

[kctim]

22. The moderate Dems

worry more about rights than what is cheaper.

[obxhead]

24. 15% is a lot for me.

The huge wall the HCR bill created between us and single payer was the greater harm though.

[Hoyt]

28. I tend to agree a Public Option would not be much cheaper. It would still be nice to have had it.

But, the bill that passed reduces the difference between premiums and the amount spent on medical benefits; removes pre-existing conditions, which is huge; the exchanges will allow us to purchase cheaper policies; more people will be insured (with many getting much needed subsidies); and there are provisions that may improve health care delivery.

The truth is, until we change the delivery system and our expectations -- including some carefully evaluated "rationing" of care -- the cost of health insurance will always be more than we are going to pay without griping about it.

Sooner or later, we will be forced into single payer or something close -- but until then, the legislation passed is much better than what we had before. I'm assuming the courts don't gut it. If they do, that might push us to single payer a bit faster.

[banned from Kos]

34. Excellent post --- I fully agree. 18% of GDP on health care is too high

It must come down somehow.

[Fuddnik]

42. When they wrote HR 676.

It would have been paid for by an additional 3.5% Medicare payroll tax on the employee and employer.

You're talking about a system with NO copays and NO deductibles. That's a lot cheaper and better coverage than any insurance plan. On a $60,000 per year employee, that works out to be about $150 per month on the employee end. Compare that to the $500 per month my wife pays, just to put me on her coverage at work.

[Hoyt]

59. Sadly, I doubt any of us will ever see a no copay or deductible health plan unless

something changes drastically. The right wing couldn't stand the thought of poor people getting good health care without a great deal of financial pain or being subjected to Medicaid.

[Bluebear]

29. "the bill I sign MUST include the public option" - there's your reality check

[seabeyond]

31. no, it would not have been much. i realized that. but it would have been a start

to getting more.

[Literate Dragon]

32. One thing to keep in mind

Is that the public option would have been single-payer by the back door. Without the profit skim-offs of private insurers, and backed by the financial resources of the federal government, the public option, unless it was encumbered with some ridiculous hold-downs to keep it from competing, would have grown over time to be the insurer of choice for most everyone, because it would have been both cheaper and better coverage. As such, it would have provided the leverage needed to drive health-care costs way down.

That's why the insurance industry pulled out all the stops on its effort to stop the thing, and why its loss is a big loss.

[banned from Kos]

35. I agree. Good post. The private insurers profit on that 15%.

But we have the proverbial camel's nose inside the tent now.

No bill = defeat.

[hifiguy]

40. "Profit" and "overhead" are two different things.

The best estimates I have heard are that most insurers spend about 60-75 cents per dollar of premiums paid in on actual health care costs. Contrast with the average 93-97 cents on the dollar paid out by single payer systems like Medicare.

And anyone who thinks the insurers won't be able to avoid/scam the pants off of any "requirement" that they pay out X% of receipts in benefits doesn't know one damned thing about how any large corporation works and how crooked the insurers already are.

[Octafish]

33. Got a link?

Or is it just your opinion? Again.

[TheKentuckian]

41. If gave you a 15% raise you'd see it as huge. I call that nothing to sneeze at.

It is also important to grasp that most people will never be allowed in the exchanges and you will be mandated to take whatever your employer decides and the Medicaid situation is precarious at best with cuts and waivers flying in.

Of course I wasn't even focused on the government program since it was being positioned as ghetto for folks the insurance cartel deemed too costly to deal with any way. My focus was on ending the anti-trust exemption, access to the exchange, a national exchange with the Federal government in charge of regulation and oversight, systemic cost controls, and user price controls so the bill still turned out to be a debacle.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support a government option and more so single payer because as market share increases so does the ability to dictate terms which would eventually lower costs beyond cutting out marketing, high salaries, and dividends.

I also think we missed any chance at moderation and by the time this settles out, single payer will be an ineffective half step and we will have to move to some form of NHS to get some kind of handle on systemic costs. So, the folks that give single payer and even the public option the gas face will eventually lose all choice because the nation cannot function with such an extreme percentage of GDP going to feed the cartel.

[Enthusiast]

48. A true and unfettered "public option"

would not be any more expensive than the European systems -around half the cost of the American system.

More right wing misinformation.

[Vinca]

53. For some people 10 - 15% is the difference between eating 2 meals a day or 3.

I'm afraid the way things are going, no one is going to be able to afford much of anything in the way of health care, health insurance or anything better than a first aid kit.

[izquierdista]

55. And when you show up at a third site,

Will the nick have Kos and DU, or will DU get top billing?