Vegan couple will serve life sentences for starving baby to death, court rules

[ohiosmith]

ATLANTA - An Atlanta vegan couple whose malnourished 6-week-old son starved to death after they fed him a too-limited diet of soy milk and apple juice will have to serve their life sentences for murder, Georgia's top court ruled on Monday.

The Georgia Supreme Court's unanimous decision rejected appeals by Jade Sanders and Lamont Thomas.

The two first-time parents in their 20s at the time lived in Atlanta's Buckhead neighborhood. They rushed their infant, Crown Shakur, to the hospital in April 2004 after he began to have trouble breathing. Doctors who couldn't resuscitate him determined he died because of extreme malnourishment or starvation.

Police searching the couple's apartment found a soy milk bottle, an apple juice bottle and a rancid-smelling baby bottle caked with debris.

Link: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/09/12/2011-09-12_vegan_couple_will_serve_life_sentences_for_starving_baby_to_death_court_rules.html

[tblue]

1. Oy gevalt. FEED THE BABY!!!!

What is WRONG with people?

[TheWraith]

3. I guess breast milk is an animal product.

Goddamn, even saying that sarcastically makes me feel like I've lost half my IQ.

[Codeine]

6. No, vegans do not believe that.

The mother may have been unable to breastfeed and was too dumb to read the soymilk container.

[arcane1]

8. Or too dumb to read the breast n/t

[Javaman]

51. !

:spray: :rofl:

[TheWraith]

2. Good. They deserve it.

I don't mind people who choose to eat vegan knowing the limitations and risks of that kind of diet. But you should NEVER do that to your kids, and to do it to a baby is criminally indefensible to the point of disgust.

[LeftyMom]

11. My kid's been vegan since he was a baby.

At ten and a half he's big and healthy and sturdier than a brick outhouse.

That poor baby didn't die because his parents were vegan. He died because his parents didn't fucking feed him.

[xmas74]

16. Agreed.

You knew what you were doing. You knew what your baby needed and you know what your growing child needs to be big and strong. You've done the research and you know what can be substituted in his diet to be sure that your child gets adequate nutrition.

The parents in the case above were idiots and fools. All they had to do was a bit of legwork to find out what the child needed for proper nutrition. Speaking with a nutritionist, a pediatrician, even going to the library and checking out a few books should have given the parents a clue that the child wasn't getting proper nutrition.

I don't understand why if breastmilk wasn't given why they didn't give at least a soy formula?

[LeftyMom]

18. Apparently they weren't feeding the baby much of anything,

if there was one bottle in the house and it was crusty and gross with disuse.

[xmas74]

22. I want to gag just thinking about it!

I nursed my child but we still had a number of bottles for expressed milk. (I worked full time and work was too far to drive home for nursing during the shift.)

This sounded like laziness, pure and simple.

[eShirl]

21. maybe they didn't realize there was much difference between soy milk and soy formula

We've all known some low brain-power people, I'm sure.

[xmas74]

25. I remember how, after having my child,

a nurse spoke with me about the difference between formula and milk. I chose to nurse my child but the RN stated that the "lecture" was protocol, no matter what. The jist of the lecture was this: breast milk is best for baby. If you can't or won't nurse then formula should be chosen. If you know you won't nurse let them know now and they'll start baby on formula immediately, so they can monitor if baby tolerates it. If baby switches to formula after leaving the hospital notify baby's pediatrician or the WIC offices, if eligible for services. Never, ever, give baby milk. The type of milk-cow, goat, soy, rice, etc doesn't matter. Baby can't have milk until the pediatrician says ok. Never, ever give baby juice until pediatrician or WIC (if eligible) approves.

That was the lecture. (Except her lecture lasted much longer and included handouts to take home and papers for me to sign proving that she had given the lecture.) She said it was protocol. I figured she meant it was everywhere.

[WinkyDink]

68. I think it's awesome that you raised your son vegan. I read about Pres. Clinton "converting." Sure

seems healthful!

[idiotgardener]

17. I'm sorry, you are WRONG.

Even the ADA has now recognized that veganism can be a healthy diet for all stages of life. "Can be" means you have to eat a variety of foods. If they really only fed the kid soy milk and apple juice, that is not sufficient. Making a baby vegan is NOT a crime. Starving one is.

[Drahthaardogs]

57. How does a vegan baby eat "a variety of foods"?

Just wondering on this one.

[LeftyMom]

60. Until they're four months or so they get breastmilk exclusively,

then you add veg and fruits, legumes etc but continue to center the diet on human milk for at least the first year. Barely any different from any other baby. :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

63. This baby died at 6 weeks...

And should have been breastfed until he was at least six months if the parents intended on him being raised vegan.

Good intentions do not guarantee good intelligence.

[LeftyMom]

73. That point's been made.

And babies are supposed to get breastmilk for at least a year, according to the AAP. Two, according to the WHO. Not six months according to anybody. Four months is just when you start to add solids to a diet that is still human milk centered.

[JuniperLea]

80. Well tutt and cluck...

Wrong... WHO says four to six... that's what I followed... solid food is introduced at six months to avoid milk and other food allergies, one food at a time, with new foods introduced at one-month intervals.

snip...

The current recommendation of the World Health Organization (WHO) is that infants should be fed exclusively on breast milk from birth to 4-6 mo of age and resulted from a joint WHO/UNICEF Meeting on Infant and Young Child Feeding...

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/5/1335.full

[flvegan]

43. Please do list the "risks" you suggest in your post.

And when you suggest it's "criminally indefensible" I'll take it to the next level.

Your move.

A move you won't make.

[tgal]

59. Thank you flvegan

GREAT post.

[JuniperLea]

64. Babies need animal milk... human animal milk...

Until they are at least six months old before they can eat a balanced variety of foods. Probably longer if the parents intend on raising them vegan.

This was a criminally stupid move on their part...

These parents are idiots.

[gateley]

4. They deserve the harsh sentence. This is horrific. nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

5. Can't people just allow their children to live long enough to grow up

and decide if they want to adopt their parents' religious and/or dietary practices? :shrug: Babies weren't meant to live on a Vegan diet. Well, at least this couple won't (presumably) ever be procreating ever again. :banghead:

[Codeine]

13. Babies can absolutely thrive on a vegan diet.

They'll starve to death on a soymilk/apple juice diet, however. There's an enormous difference.

[LeftyMom]

15. The American Dietetic Assn. says otherwise.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

http://www.eatright.org/about/content.aspx?id=8357

[Proud Liberal Dem]

24. I stand corrected

Properly planned and monitored, I suppose it could work but still, I don't really think that a vegan/vegetarian diet would be appropriate for infants but I guess I'm kind of biased since I'm neither. These parents don't appear to be have been managing this child's dietary needs very well and clearly dropped the ball when they noticed that the baby was having issues.

[LeftyMom]

30. Feeding a baby isn't really any more complicated for a vegan family.

Breastmilk at first, add a little solid food later, slowly to test for allergies. Babies and toddlers need lots of healthy fats, so make sure to work in healthy foods that are a bit fatty. It's the same stuff omnivores have to plan around, except a few of the common allergens are eliminated. :shrug:

[The Genealogist]

53. "Well-planned" being the key word...

This baby was NOT fed properly. It is one thing to go vegan, it is another to kill a child because you fail to feed the child properly. Babies have needs, and ANY parent needs to learn how to properly feed a child, vegan, vegitarian, omnivore, carnivore or whatever. The problem is not that the parents were vegan; the problem is that they were neglectful.

[LeftyMom]

61. That's the point I've been making all over this thread.

Some people were arguing that a vegan diet isn't healthful for a baby or child, full stop, which is why I posted that quote. Obviously I know that well-planned vegan diets sustain young people, I have pretty good evidence of that playing down the hall.

[arcane1]

7. Did they spend the rest of their money on meth?

Giving an infant that pathetic diet isn't vegan, it's stupid.

[fishwax]

9. that's about neglect, not veganism

despicable :grr:

[tammywammy]

10. +1 n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. Neglect INSPIRED by veganism. n/t

[Codeine]

36. Bullshit.

Neglect INSPIRED by being stupid-ass stupid-asses. This baby would have been up Shit Creek regardless of the dietary decisions of the parents. They were neglectful imbeciles who didn't care for an infant in such an egregious fashion that it bloody well starved to death.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

40. I don't see that

I just see neglect. Infants can be fed and healthy on a vegan diet. These guys neglected to feed him. I don't see how veganism inspired their neglect any more than I would see omnivorous diets inspiring the neglect of a child of non-vegans who died of malnutrition.

[flvegan]

42. Loud noises, stating nothing. What else you got?

[LanternWaste]

83. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc...? n/t

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc...?

[Blue_Tires]

54. Very true...but the 'vegan' in the headline brings in all the mouse clicks

"At the 2007 trial, prosecutors said the soy milk cartons in their apartment stated that it wasn't to be used as a substitute for baby formula. They also contended that the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as his body wasted away. He was just 3.5 pounds when he died, about as much as a baby weighs at 7 months into a normal pregnancy."


Ironically they lived in a trendy part of the city, so it probably wasn't a $$$$ issue as much as a "We know jack shit about baby care" issue...Although I am surprised to see life sentences handed down...I've known people who have actively, maliciously killed their toddlers who didn't get life...

[a la izquierda]

79. Thanks!

I have friends who raised five kids from infancy into adolescence as vegans.

[hugo_from_TN]

12. This has nothing to do with veganism

There is no reason for an infant to starve. These are irresponsible parents, period.

[Modern_Matthew]

14. Despicable. nt

[frazzled]

19. NYT: "Death by Veganism" (from a former vegan)

Read this and you won't think that a vegan diet is fine for infants--even with breastfeeding.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

[LeftyMom]

20. That article is discredited all over the damned internets and that woman is a crank.

Here's the statement of the American Dietetic Association on vegan diets, which they came up with when they had their best-qualified experts get together to review the literature and studies available on the subject: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

[flvegan]

34. Nina Planck? Really?

Hey, guess what...Cheney was a great Vice President because some fucking idiot on the internet said so.

[mainer]

78. I didn't know vegan breast milk was lacking a nutrient

All this time I thought breast milk was breast milk. Interesting information.

[m1049]

23. They should be punished but...

...at $20,000 a year to keep each of them in prison for a year, and with perhaps 60 years in each of their lives, Georgia may spend $2.4 million keeping them in prison. These are people who, while they deserve to be punished, aren't really harmful to anyone other than children.

I'm as horrified by this story as anyone, but locking them up for life seems pointless.

[surrealAmerican]

75. I agree.

It's a horrifying crime, motivated mostly by ignorance, and deserves a serious punishment, but this sentence is excessive.

[diane in sf]

26. There is no traditional diet in the world that is vegan, even vegetarian diets, as in India

will have eggs or milk, and usually plenty of insect parts (not in the awareness of the eater, but there are lots of bugs in grains). All these offer adequate and assimilable fats, proteins and B12.

[Codeine]

27. All sorts of things aren't traditional.

I fail to see the significance.

[Puregonzo1188]

28. I believe we established the last time this dumb story came up that Veganism had nothing to do with

the kid's death.

Most vegans aren't against breast feeding and even if they were there is soy formula for infants who are lactose intolerant or what not.

Feeding an infant soy milk would have the same effect as feeding a infant cow milk as opposed to formula.

The fact that they were vegans had nothing to do with this child's death.

[flvegan]

29. OMG!!! VEGAN killers kill their baby completely to death!!!! Vegan.

Did I get that right for the idiots?

Vegan or otherwise, it's about nutrition, which BTW most folks visiting this site don't know shit about. Just saying, cuz I have to.

[Codeine]

32. LMAO!

Best response yet. :rofl:

[flvegan]

37. Suffering fools gladly? I can't do it.

It's good for comedic relief, though.

[LeftyMom]

33. Vegan diets are totally inappropriate for children. Which is why mine is such a waif.

I swear, I'm going to make everybody on this thread wrestle with my kid. :rofl:

[flvegan]

41. All vegans are, you silly thing.

Yeah, your mutant kid aside all of us veganfolk are just ripe for the pickins of the knuckledragging veg*n haters because they have a proper understanding of...ummmm, hmmm. I deleted everything else I typed here, because it just would have gotten this deleted.

Funny thing, that.

[K8-EEE]

35. UNREC'd for the insinuation that vegan = starving babies

these people are nuts but you it has NOTHING TO DO WITH WITH VEGANISM. You would never read "meat eating parents starve baby" but when babies are starved that is usually who is doing it!

[K8-EEE]

39. Half my family is vegan and all think MILK is for BABIES

Cows milk is for baby calves, human milk for baby humans etc!! Vegans for the most part are breast feeding.

[flvegan]

44. Damn but this thread got really quiet pretty quickly.

Can't imagine why.

[Quantess]

45. You only show up if there's something to fight about.

The baby was neglected, and it looks like people are satisfied with that explanation.
Go take a nap. There's no fight here.

[flvegan]

47. Is that so?

I show up when there's something worth showing up about. Your concern is noted,though.

Hope that works for you.

[LeftyMom]

50. That's easy to say, nobody implied that you were a criminal child abuser.

I can't speak for flvegan, but he's the only person on this thread (that I know of) with formal academic training in vegan nutrition, so I'm pretty sure the disinformation posted pisses him off. I'm sure the statement somebody made upthread that raising kids vegan is criminal does, and I'm pretty sure if somebody implied that your girlfriend was a child abuser you'd be pissed too.

edit: So there I go speaking for him anyway. He'll forgive me.

[Quantess]

52. I don't understand, "He'll forgive me" meaning, flvegan?

Do you worship him or merely kiss his ass, maybe? Weird.

[LeftyMom]

55. No, we're a couple.

I don't like to speak for him, but I figured I could clear up a misunderstanding. :shrug:

[Quantess]

58. Okay, Cool then.

:hi:
Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Warren DeMontague]

46. It's because vegancore has BROUGHT THE PAIN, homie.

As terrified meat-eaters clog the exits, trailing long chains of pork sausage out of their gaping, fear-filled mouths. :o :o :o :scared:


:hide:


I'm kidding, by the way. I think this is a clear case of plain old neglect, same as with the horrible faith healing cases we seem to get up here in Oregon every 6 months or so.

[flvegan]

48. LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I thought you'd get a kick out of that.

'Nite. :hi:

[mrs_p]

56. Two thoughts

1. If breastmilk is considered OK for vegans, then my 6mo baby is a vegan and doing just fine - over 70th percentile in weight. As others have said, it wasn't the fact that the parents are vegans that killed the baby. It was neglect.

2. I have known parents who thought their baby was latched on properly when breastfeeding and went 6 weeks before they realized the baby was just barely getting enough food. It is so important for parents to have support those first few weeks. So many of us didn't grow up around breastfeeding and don't realize proper technique - it's not as intuitive for everyone and there can be a very steep learning curve for both baby and mother. That said, it sounds, again, like these were just neglectful parents as they didn't take the baby to a healthcare provider until he was 3.5 pounds and having difficulty breathing. Those first few weeks, I was completely obsessed with my baby losing weight and was taking her in to see either a lactation consultant or provider about once a week.

In any case, that poor little baby.... :cry:

[leeroysphitz]

62. Good. People can indulge whatever dipshit kookery they like but don't let the BS hurt the kids. n/t

[Texasgal]

72. Do you believe that

Veganisim is kookery?

[leeroysphitz]

77. I don't know. Why don't you ask the baby? n/t

[LanternWaste]

84. That seems to be a rather evasive response.

That seems to be a rather evasive response... it appears quite irrelevant to the direct question asked as I don't think the infant, even if alive would have the cognitive ability to make an informed answer.

All answers are responses. Not all responses are answers... :shrug:

[idiotgardener]

76. And apparently people can post whatever dipshit kookery they want no matter how incorrect.

As if the SAD (standard American diet) were somehow healthier... or even just "healthy".

[TNLib]

65. They lived in Buckhead they had money.

These people were most likely educated and should have known better.

[Broderick]

66. This is being blamed on veganism

And it is a shame that it is. This was poor parenting and they deserve what they get.

[demmiblue]

67. Good! However, almost all starvation deaths are caused by omnivores. n/t

[XemaSab]

69. Five bucks says they're in a weird cult

:(



Reminds me of these people:



Death in the Family

During the 12 years that Dr. Thomas Meyer had worked in the Kaiser Permanente emergency room in San Rafael, not a single child in his care had died. Much of his work involved treating tykes whose overprotective parents had unnecessarily summoned ambulances in response to minor injury.

Nothing, certainly, had prepared Meyer for Ndigo Campisi-Nyah-Wright's arrival on Nov. 13, 2001. At around 10:30 p.m., four women walked through the ER doors as casually as if they were entering a Safeway. One of them -- a middle-aged woman wearing a head scarf -- was cradling a baby in her arms. Meyer observed that the boy was limp and looked dead. "Our child isn't breathing," the woman calmly told an emergency medical technician. The women's facial expressions were weirdly "flat," remembers Meyer. They didn't, in any case, seem especially concerned.

Though the doctor learned the boy was 19 months old, he looked half that age. He had a pretty face and curly dark hair, but his belly was bloated, his limbs oddly bow-shaped, like frog legs. As Meyer had expected, attempts to revive Ndigo (pronounced IN-di-go) were unsuccessful. Later, doctors determined that the baby had died of severe malnutrition. Meyer entered the trauma room where the women were seated.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2004-10-13/news/death-in-the-family/

[Texasgal]

70. Du and Vegans

Kinda shocking how much vegans get bashed here.

How about the parents were total imbeciles and didn't nourish their child correctly?

The "vegan" part is secondary. These people were idiots. Plain and simple.

Jezuz! :eyes:

[kentauros]

86. I know it seems like it should be shocking that our non-meat diet choice

isn't accepted around here, but I think it goes beyond that. American culture still hasn't accepted vegetarianism or veganism overall. Most are completely misinformed about the definitions and will only accept the proper definition if it comes from some "authority" that isn't one of their veg*n friends/co-workers.

I can't tell you how often I've tried to educate people about the definitions only to fail miserably. No, the news-media, their doctor, their pastor, et cetera, have told them that you can eat some meats and still call yourself veg*an (short for both vegetarian and vegan.) I would guess that if any were to ever visit India, they'd declare the veg*n natives wrong in what should be in their diet...

[NMMNG]

71. The problem wasn't that they were vegan

The problem was that they were neglectful idiots who starved their baby to death. They deserve to rot in prison.

[Imajika]

74. Being vegans had nothing to do with the baby dying...

The parents were just criminally irresponsible idiots. They deserve their life sentences.

[Odin2005]

81. The stupid, it BURNS!!!

Poor baby! :cry:

[SOS]

82. In 2009, 1,676 American children died of abuse and neglect

Apparently the ridiculous "vegan" angle sells papers.
Didn't hear much about the thousands of other victims.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm09/index.htm

[LanternWaste]

85. infants being starved by a meat-eating couple?

Why have a never read a mainstream newspaper story that deals with infants being starved by a meat-eating couple?

I imagine I've either not read enough starvation stories, or the fact that omnivore/vegan is simply irrelevant to the story. :shrug: