This is a rare article on the "jumpers" of 911: Warning for those who might be offended

[hlthe2b]

I post this, not because of some bizarre curiosity, but because I am not one who views those facing the impossible choice, as they looked down from the burning upper floors of the towers, to be anything but attempting to assert control over their own horrible fate in the face of the worst possible setting. While everyone looks at the issue of taking one's life differently, frankly, I do not view this as "suicide." Clearly they were fated to die regardless (and in the most horrendous way possible) and they knew it. Nonetheless, there is a reason that virtually nothing is known about this aspect, in terms of the numbers who made that decision, a reason why nearly all of the photos taken have been kept from the public and why even the death certificates do not even allude to it. I don't disagree with any of that, but, if faced with that horrific choice, who knows what any of us would ultimately do? I certainly do not. That said, here is one of the few articles--just published-- on the issue. It also notes that a decision has been made (after much debate)to include some discussion and photos in a tucked away alcove in the 911 museum. The article is not gratuitous and seeks to be as sensitive as possible. That said, there is a photo included in the linked article, which I will not post. Please be forewarned, nonetheless. I know others may feel differently, but I alternate between an almost sense of admiration for those who chose to jump versus an absolute horror that they could have put those rescuers on the ground at risk of certain death

As discussed on Talking Point Memo: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/09/on_most_of_the_anniversaries.php?ref=fpblg

Direct Link to article: Twin Towers jumpers that Americans will not talk about
http://www.nation.co.ke/News/Twin+Towers+jumpers+that+Americans+will+not+talk+about+/-/1056/1234160/-/view/printVersion/-/7j4sru/-/index.html

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. I think they were very courageous, in a situation most of us can hardly even imagine.

R.I.P.

[demosincebirth]

7. Same here.

[spanone]

22. ++++1

[seabeyond]

44. i agree. nt

[LAGC]

2. Given a choice between slowly burning to death or dying quickly from falling impact...

I think the decision is a no-brainer.

[lapislzi]

66. I would not have wanted to endure those ten seconds

Before terminal velocity. I imagine they felt like ten lifetimes. But, unless I could be reasonably sure of being overcome and totally unconscious unto death from the smoke, I would probably have chosen to jump. Under extreme duress, with panic all around, that determination was probably impossible to make. I surely would not wish to burn.

This was a tough read, probably the toughest read since "Hiroshima."

[dmallind]

3. Anyone trapped on the upper floors who did NOT jump is irrational.

Choice 1) Choking to death on red hot poisonous smoke - agony

2) Being burned to death - agony

3) Being crushed in a collapse from above and surviving an indeterminate length of time before 1 or 2 kicks in - mental AND physical agony

4) Dying instantly after a few seconds of freefall - brief panic then painless end

What kind of person would not prefer 4?

[Bucky]

10. That's a little harsh. They were in an irrational situation.

There wasn't a "right" course of action. Some clung to hope in a freightening situation; someone might even call that heroic. Others took charge of how they'd meet their demise. I don't think anyone really gets to judge them, regardless of how they acted.

[dmallind]

55. Not really judging - irrationality in extremis is hardly a personality flaw

I'm more stressing that the rational decision was TO jump, and that those who did so made the best choice, which explains why they should not be diminished in sny way.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Easy for you to decide, typing on your computer in comfort 10 years after the event.

Not so easy to make a decision in the horror of the moment.

[dmallind]

54. No it's easy any time. I'm a damn sight closer to that situation than you would guess. nt

[MadMaddie]

28. I think every human has the right to determine their own

destiny. what might be right for me may be wrong for you. What might have been right for those who decided the way they were going to leave this world may not have been right for others.....

I do not judge them....I don't know what I would do....we all don't until that moment is upon us.

[roguevalley]

30. there was a story about an able bodied man who sat with someone

who was in a wheelchair and held their hand because he didn't want them to die there alone. What they did is what their soul decided they needed to do. I hope none of us ever have to make that determination. All of them were beloved.

[dmallind]

56. Surely. I do irrational things all the time. We all do.

In high-stress scenarios it's even more likely. I don't quite understand why pointing that out is seen as assigning culpability. I'm more concerned about trying to support and empathize with the jumpers' decision.

[LynneSin]

70. Really? You're going to play armchair QB over this one?

So much easier to make comments such as yours when you are safe.

[Generic Other]

4. I can understand why that term is not used

If it was, there would have been insurance companies denying claims.

[murielm99]

5. This is poignant, not offensive.

Fifty-eight women died jumping away from the fire at the Triangle Shirtwaist Company, too.

They made a choice.

Thanks for posting.

[Withywindle]

36. I thought of that too.

Who the hell are we to judge?


I think the people who jumped are those who realized that there was no way that help would come in time. Others held onto hope longer. I honestly have no idea which camp I would be in if I were in that situation.


I don't actually think the jumpers died more horribly than those who burned to death, though.

[Alameda]

68. I think they jumped in the hope they would find a better situation.

I don't think they intentionally jumped to certain death....I am sure they all had hope.

[demosincebirth]

6. I had a hard time finishing the Nation's article

[The Midway Rebel]

8. I can't even begin. nt

[jberryhill]

9. Thank you for the description

I choose not to read the article, but appreciate your description of it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Oh god, I am just destroyed by this article and picture!

:cry:

[dixiegrrrrl]

12. Very sensitively written, still a difficult read.

The idea of those poor people's suffering, those who died, those who lived with the memories of that day,
contrasted to Bush's posturing after the event, even up to the recent ceremony.
I cannot begin to describe my fury.

[peacetalksforall]

13. I think a copy should be sent to every member and supporter of PNAC with a note

asking if they wanted to be congratulated for their second Pearl Harbor.

[Octafish]

45. +1

Start with Frank C. of the Carlyle Group.

[Lil Missy]

14. kick for later reading

[emilyg]

15. Thank you.

[riderinthestorm]

16. Of course the last line of the article is the best... (small sob)

"Those people were getting out of that situation as best they could. “They were falling into the arms of God, they really were.”

Great and important article. Thanks for posting.

[GKirk]

17. I never for a second considered it

to be an act of suicide.

[Common Sense Party]

94. Neither did I. Every jumper was murdered by the terrorists, the same as

the passengers and crew on the planes and the people who died in the buildings.

[Raine]

18. Sure death no matter whether you stay or jump

jumping seems more rational to me, I see no shame in it. It was hard to read. :cry:

[awoke_in_2003]

19. the image of the jumpers...

that I saw in real time is more deeply burned in my head than any from that day.

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. Whether they stayed on the building or jumped, I wouldn't second guess them.

It was the last human decision they were allowed to make for themselves and we should respect it.

[lynne]

21. I don't think they had a choice. I think it was instinctive to jump -

- as part of our internal "fight or flight" response. They knew they couldn't fight that fire. Their only option was flight.

[scarletwoman]

24. The article is very well done and I'm glad you posted it.

I honestly do not understand the thinking that the jumpers did something shameful. That the facts need to be hidden away.

Why wouldn't someone jump in that situation? Faced with billows of choking toxic smoke, unbearable heat, and flames roaring all around, why wouldn't someone want to escape into the open air to breathe their last breath?

May their souls rest in peace.

sw

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

25. Thank you for posting this.

Earlier today I read the Esquire piece on The Falling Man which someone else had posted a link to

http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ0903-SEP_FALLINGMAN

[deutsey]

63. There's also an excellent documentary on "the Falling Man"

I don't have access to YouTube at work, but you can find it available there.

I highly recommend it.

[no_hypocrisy]

26. They didn't have a choice of dying. They only had the choice how they were going to die.

[ChazII]

102. +1 n/t

[FirstLight]

27. powerful and gut wrenching story

well done...

[tammywammy]

29. Bookmarked to read later. Rec.

[treestar]

31. How can anyone know?

There is no one alive who can explain it by experience.

Hopefully, there was little choice involved - just instinct.

[1620rock]

33. Some even attempted to use table cloths .....

...in a vane effort to parachute to the ground....the cloths were ripped from their hands in free fall....
These images will haunt me forever.

[treestar]

96. Also the guy waving the suit jacket

Who looked like he tried to climb down the side of the building, almost.

[amborin]

32. K&R

[Jamastiene]

34. K&R

Even 10 years later, the "jumpers" ( I feel they didn't jump so much as try to get away from the inferno any way they could) still play in my head. That was something I wish I could "un-see." I can't believe anyone would consider what happened to those people as "suicide." That was not suicide. It was the human body reacting (fight or flight) to a trauma. I honestly don't think any of them did it as a conscious decision. I think their bodies could not take any more of the pain and horror they were facing.

I wish 9/11 had never happened. Oh, to go back in time and stop it before it ever happened...or at least to make sure no people at all were anywhere near those towers when they were hit...anything to un-do the horror of that day.

Not "jumpers." Not suicide. No, I don't believe either. I believe they were in agony and their bodies took over.

I believe I would end up in jail on an assault or murder charge if any of these Bible Belt ultra religious types in my hometown said one damn word about "suicide" and Hell and all that hateful crap they are constantly spewing about their God...especially when referring to that horrible event.

I'm still pissed off from an event that happened after a close friend of mine died. One guy in school, who was the guy's cousin, no less, said he was in Hell because he committed suicide. When I heard things like that growing up, it fucked me up in a bad way mentally. I still fucks me up. I despise people who say that horrible shit.

[Broderick]

35. I can't imagine the horror of the choice

[Jim Lane]

37. I'm sorry to seem hard-hearted, but jumping was wrong, because of the danger to others

I agree with the points about people choosing their own deaths, it not being suicide, etc. The article recounts, however, that one firefighter outside the south tower was struck by a falling body, and died.

According to the article, the firefighter's widow was more charitable than I would have found it in my heart to be:

Later that night she learnt how Danny had died, and all she could remember thinking was: “How horrendous for that poor person.” What had been going through their mind before they jumped or fell? How horrific for those people up there to have to choose.

Yes, horrendous for them, and I'm hesitant to write this because of the extremity of their situation. Nevertheless, the jumpers caused at least one additional and unnecessary death. I believe they had a moral obligation to consider that danger.

Perhaps some did consider it but, faced with the advancing fire, simply could not bear to remain. If so, it was a failing on their part, although certainly an understandable one under the circumstances.

[JI7]

38. it wasn't 100 percent choice, you know if you touch something burning hot

your hand will instantly pull away ? i think it was something nlike that. they were in pain, suffering. who knows what was going on behind them. things just burning down. the smoke suffocating them.

i see these people are the biggest victims because they suffered in a horrible way before they died. this is the worst part of the 9/11 attacks to me . to think of what these people went through.

and you really think with what they were going through they were supposed to think and consider the possiblity others might die. i would never have thought of that.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marions ghost]

42. "they had a moral obligation to consider the danger to others"?

:eyes: how ridiculous.

Nothing could have prepared these people for this event. They were not firefighters or soldiers.
What a mean, shortsighted viewpoint. Every one of them did the best they could.

[jberryhill]

84. People do make rapid calculations like this in clutch situations...

Your brakes have failed, and you are careening along a downhill street which eventually bottoms out. Your horn doesn't work. The intersection has 10 pedestrians in the crosswalk. Each sidewalk has someone pushing a baby carriage.

You can:

(a) continue straight into multiple pedestrians, or

(b) swerve off of the road and hit at least one baby carriage.

People do moral math real quick in those situations.

[marions ghost]

112. some do some don't

This is not a situation where you can attribute a sense of morality to it. It is not more moral to hit one baby rather than to hit multiple pedestrians. Too many variables--maybe the adults have a better chance of surviving. People don't make the best decisions under extreme circumstances and they should not be judged as to the morality of what they did in a situation that most of us cannot really imagine. But armchair philosophers will sit around and pose these little brain teasers to try to argue that there is a moral failure for not making the "right" choice.

So I guess you think the jumpers did the "wrong" thing? :shrug: All I can say is--you weren't there.

[jberryhill]

115. I'm always surprised at the attribution of opinions and motives that goes on here

You wouldn't speak to your friends that way. Why do it on DU?

No, I don't think anyone made a "wrong" decision, and certainly wouldn't judge.

The general subject of what kinds of things might have been going on in people's minds is interesting.

It might even be worth a civil discussion in an environment that wasn't one in which people converse as if it was a form of warfare in which the objective is to pin the worst sort of opinions and motives on other people.

The funny part is that I don't make those sorts of judgments about other folks, but apparently you get your kicks that way, as demonstrated in your comment.

[marions ghost]

116. "moral math"

kinda says it all :nopity:

You imply there is a good and a bad choice, morally speaking, in the case of those marooned in the Towers :shrug: I rest my case.

[seabeyond]

47. i would not be surprised if that consideration did not enter their mind.

they where probably thinking of all kinds of thigs. doubt that was it.

i could easily accept.

[JanMichael]

49. Certainly, they had time to consider the ramifications of their

actions...why they could have just sat down and meditated on the consequences of their actions for 20 minutes or so----

Seriously? Think about what you wrote.

[Connie_Corleone]

50. Let's see you 100 stories up in a burning office with no escape.

Let's see if you have time to think about if your body is going to hit someone on the street when you die. Or are you going to think about the unbearable heat from the fire, the choking smoke where you can barely breathe, knowing you're about to die and never see your family again? Realizing that falling to your death is more palpable than burning alive or suffocating to death.

[Myrina]

92. +100

n/t

[Javaman]

52. your post is epic fail.

your post has to be the most monstrously ridiculous postulation by anyone ever.

[GliderGuider]

59. Self-delete. If I'm going to object to judgment, I shouldn't do it judgmentally.

[jberryhill]

61. One might have assumed there was also falling debris

...and that adequate caution was being taken below on account of the debris.

It is difficult to fully imagine the stress of the circumstances.

[Jim Lane]

77. It's so much easier to bash me when you ignore what I actually wrote.

To all those who pointed out how terrible a position these people were in, and how they therefore couldn't be expected to sit down and carefully consider all the pros and cons, permit me to repeat my closing paragraph:

Perhaps some did consider it but, faced with the advancing fire, simply could not bear to remain. If so, it was a failing on their part, although certainly an understandable one under the circumstances.

So, yes, I certainly understand that these innocent victims were under great stress. By analogy, in New York law concerning motor vehicle accidents, there's the "emergency doctrine" -- a driver who faces a sudden emergency not of his or her own making is held to a lesser standard of care, and thus can be held not liable for a mistake even if someone else is injured as a result. So, yeah, I understand the point.

I tried to make clear that I wasn't blaming these people for making what I consider the wrong choice. That doesn't negate the argument that it was the wrong choice.

I'm replying to jberryhill's post only because it's the most recent and so the best place to hang my reply. My umbrage doesn't apply to him; his argument about assuming that precautions were being taken is actually about the only response that advances the discussion. The weakness in that argument, though, is that it's not realistic to assume that protective sheds or scaffolding have been put up on such short notice. People who stop to think about it should realize that jumping is creating a hazard to others. And I take this opportunity to reiterate my recognition that many people under such incredible stress would not be able to stop to think about it, or would not be able to act on their conclusion if they did.

[jberryhill]

78. You have an odd definition of "bashing"

I was merely pointing out that if one were in the process of making a rational calculation, the fact of the matter is that large pieces of glass, flaming debris, and the aluminum cladding were falling out of the towers.

By "appropriate cautions below" it would have been a reasonable assumption that the area into which such things were falling was evacuated, and not secured by some kind of shelter. I really would not have personally considered that the street below, into which debris was falling, to have been occupied, and even if incorrect it is a reasonable assumption.

I made no personal comment about you whatsoever, so please don't confuse me for some other poster here. I don't have a problem discussing the decision process.

[Jim Lane]

93. I agree that YOU weren't bashing me.

That's why I singled you out by name as not being one of the targets of my umbrage. My reply was to your post only because I didn't want to post nine separate replies, and, by happenstance, yours was the most recent response when I came back to this thread. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the decision process.

As for the substance, there's certainly a difference between this situation and that of some idiot who jumps off a skyscraper under normal (non-emergency) circumstances, endangering random passers-by. Still, I don't think it's pure hindsight to say that the evacuation you refer to wouldn't be complete. People would be fleeing the building; first responders would be entering, or doing support work around the base.

Maybe I'm biased here because I used to work downtown and I would sometimes be at the WTC complex. I've probably stood at one of the points where a falling body landed. The issue of the hazard to the people on the ground occurred to me even before I knew that at least one firefighter had actually died this way.

[Pithlet]

85. "If so, it was a failing on their part"

No. I'm sorry. But no. You deserve to get called on that. Even qualifying that with "It's understandable" doesn't cut it.

[LynneSin]

79. I think that's the last thing these people were thinking about when it happened

And we don't know if they officially jumped - authorities believe that many may have been blown out of the building.

[Abq_Sarah]

88. Intense heat, smoke and advancing flames behind you

And a window in front of you. I imagine their thought processes were pretty much limited to immediate escape from the fire, not what was going on 80 floors below them. In those circumstances, it's unreasonable to expect someone to sit down and go through a list of what ifs.

I would have jumped and I wouldn't have given a second of thought to someone safe on the ground who had the time and luxury to assess the safety of being in that area.

[Capitalocracy]

113. I really don't think they ever considered the possibility they would land on someone.

I really, really, really don't think it ever crossed their minds.

[Are_grits_groceries]

39. All of the deaths were tragic, but

the "falling" are the ones who haunt me. Watching them slip silently downward is the image that immediately comes to mind from that day. It was as if I was seeing people become ghosts before my eyes.

As far as them endangering people on the ground, in that situation who in the hell would have time to debate that question. I'm sure that is the last thing they would want to do, but trapped with the flames coming, that choice is one I don't blame them for making. I don't know what I would do.

From this safe vantage point, it is easy and incredibly judgemental to find fault with what they did.

[Javaman]

53. Me too.

I had a friend die there. I don't know how he died, but I hope it was quick. If he was one of the those who jumped...

I'm terrified of heights. I can't even fathom making that choice.

I still can't watch footage from that day.

[FailureToCommunicate]

65. So sorry your loss, Javaman. I had two friends killed that day, one

died when his flight 175 hit the South Tower. The other friend had just started his new job at Windows on the World when Flight 11 slammed several floors below.
I try not to think about what happened to him and the other souls trapped above the inferno...

[Violet_Crumble]

40. Whether they jumped, fell, or stayed in the bldg, they were all murdered...

I don't understand for a second the thinking of people who say they committed suicide, criticise them for not thinking ever-so-rationally of putting rescuers on the ground at risk, or the awkwardness in discussing how they died. I find the stigma attached to them absolutely disgusting. The images of people falling to their deaths was incredibly tragic and confronting...

[marions ghost]

43. right

--the stigma attached to those who jumped is "absolutely disgusting." Agreed.

This attitude is all about denial and blame the victim.

[disillusioned73]

46. That was a tough read..

but necessary. Thanks for posting

I can see & appreciate the medias diversion from this story, but I am glad that there will be a record of these brave souls in the memorial - along with the countless others that had to endure this decision as their last moments..

[TBF]

48. The medical examiner handled this appropriately for legal reasons imo -

these folks were "pushed" as far as I am concerned, whether by the flames or their choice (which was not really a choice given the situation). I don't know how insurance policies are interpreted, but might some policies refuse to pay for suicides? I think the medical examiner was taking care of the families here and did so very appropriately.

Very sad situation.

[closeupready]

51. In a dire no-win situation, a jump COULD be viewed as non-suicidal, since

there ARE recorded cases of people falling from high places, such as out of airplanes, and surviving. Therefore, one never does know as one can't predict the future.

[Horse with no Name]

87. Given the choice that behind me was absolute death by fire

and in front of me was probable death, but possibly serious injury...I think they made the decisions that they could in the situation that they were given.

I don't blame them. One bit.

[Capitalocracy]

114. That happened not long ago here in Buenos Aires.

A woman jumped out of a high floor of a hotel and landed on a taxi and survived. The taxi driver got out to see what people were staring at, saving him from being crushed.

[Waiting For Everyman]

57. I'm shocked that anyone would judge these people or try to put shame on them.

I can't imagine anything so arrogant and so cowardly - to be ashamed by association, and above all with these people who had to face a fall from such a great height, such an overwhelming horror. I can't figure out how such a mind works, which is so small and self-involved, as to come up with a reaction such as vicarious shame or finger-pointing.

Those "critics" must be people who see nothing awesome in the ocean, or the mountains, or space, or the big things of life. Those who fell were, at the very least, so extraordinary in the last act of their lives, while their critics are so small. It's "opposite ends of the telescope".

And if we can't even think (in our distant safety) about what they went through, then we are cowards.

Thank you for this post, hithe2b.

[Tom Ripley]

58. We humans have a primal fear of fire

Those poor people did not "choose" to jump

[Arugula Latte]

60. I'm in awe of people who were brave enough to let themselves go over the edge.

I don't think I'd be able to look down and take that step -- but who knows when faced with the horrible alternative. It's not shameful at all to make the choice they made.

[GliderGuider]

75. Me too. Somehow they were the human center of the event.

The jumpers gave us a sense of scale, by placing actual human bodies in context against the abstract, impersonal steel. Their decisions illuminated the human qualities of choice and free will in the face of the implacable natural forces of fire and gravity. The jumpers invite us to think about our core values as individuals - not as political units, or cultures, or religions or races, but as human beings. We are simultaneously strong beyond belief and infinitely fragile.

The jumpers reconnected me to my sense of humanity, and for that painful gift I am extremely grateful. In their place I would choose to fly.

[hlthe2b]

76. You speak with beautiful eloquence to this.

I wish your words could somehow find their way to those family members who might find comfort from reading them.

I agree totally.

[Arugula Latte]

86. Wow, what a beautiful post.

You are a gifted writer. What you said really honors the people who found themselves plunged into an unimaginable nightmare when only moments before they'd been experiencing a normal workday morning.

[lapislzi]

91. "I would choose to fly"

If only for the final ten seconds of my existence.

That is a powerful image. Thanks for sharing.

[ChazII]

62. Indeed a difficult read but one that is

neccessary. Thank you for sharing this with us. I find it sad and frustrating that it has taken so long for stories like this to be published. I remember hearing stories about the sound the bodies made as they hit the ground. Rhetorical question but why does the media feel the public cannot handle this information. At least the memorial museum does have this in their building and yes, from what I have heard, it is tucked away so that one does have to make the choice to see it.

[deutsey]

64. +1

[Demonaut]

67. the guy that wrote this article IS a sadist, "toast" "of course they soon fell"

"The landings, of course, were the worst" halfway thru it seems the art of telling of a tragedy is lost with this writer

[LynneSin]

69. I think the people who fell from the building had such a profound impact on me

I mean without a doubt 9/11 moved all of us in someway. But for those who fell from the building - these were people who had 2 choices: Either jump out of the building and die or burn in a fiery death. I appreciate how none of the death cerficiates of those who died in the WTC refer to them as 'suicides'. Someone committing suicides knows what they are doing well before it happens. For many of those who fell from the buildings these were probably split decisions of 'which way to I prefer to die'.

Wiki has a great article about one of the most famous photographs of those who fell from the WTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falling_Man

The photo still disturbs me. And I read where at the newly opened memorial, there is a section about those who fell from the WTC including photographs - it is a separate viewing section that warns people of the graphic contents they are about to see.

[GliderGuider]

71. Sometimes I imagine myself looking out through one of those holes in the wall.

I imagine looking down at 1200 feet of nothing at all between me and the street. I imagine the chaos around me, the flames coming down the hall toward me, the acrid smoke behind me and the clean, clear, infinite blue of the sky outside. I imagine the inner conflicts, and the fear boiling inside me. I imagine taking a deep breath and facing that awful, obvious, ineluctable choice head on.

I imagine wondering if there really is life after death. I imagine the feeling of falling. I imagine wondering if the impact will hurt, and deciding that it won't. I imagine the feeling of falling again - the terrifying freedom, the sense of suspension, the rush towards the ground. I imagine being suspended between life and death for ten eternal seconds.

Then I imagine stepping out.

Sometimes I hate having a vivid imagination, but this time I don't. Feeling that I can share that moment, even in my imagination, brings me closer to the sacred core of that day.

[bvar22]

72. I am glad this is being handled with some dignity & respect.

"At the New York office of the chief medical examiner — in charge of recording and investigating all the deaths on 9/11 — they will not even use the words “jump” or “jumper”. Nobody jumped, they say, they only fell or were forced from the towers.

“We’re pretty firm on that position,” said the medical examiner’s spokeswoman, Ellen Borakove. “People were forced or pushed out by the force of the heat and the flames.” To be a jumper, many people feel, implies the act of suicide, an act that some perceive as shameful."

<quote from the article>

Thankfully.
Dignity & Respect is not very common in these days of Hyper-Sensationalism.



Solidarity!
"The problem I have with "Centrists" is that they agree with Republicans too much."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Solly Mack]

73. I don't ever want to have to make that choice.

[4_TN_TITANS]

74. Boy, the topics don't get any tougher than this...

precisely why it's been swept under the rug.

[LynneSin]

80. I wish we wouldn't call these people 'jumpers'. I just think it's the wrong term

After reading the article, I then read the article in Wiki about 'The Falling Man' photo and then the article written in Esquire about the identity of the person in that memorable photo.

I just feeling that by calling these people 'jumpers' that we lumped them into a class of people who knowingly committed suicide by leaping to their death. I think the article from the link above brought up a valid point. A true jumper woke up that morning, walked into the building/bridge and to their destination realizing that they want to die and are ready to take the plunge.

None of the people who fell from the WTC woke up this morning thinking they wanted to die that day. They were simply a group of people who were facing a very certain and realistic death and decided they wanted to make their choice of how the death would happen. This was not a suicide that took days or weeks of planning but a 10 second choice of how their life would ultimately end.

I love the concept of how they lept into God's hands. I've read where most people die way before they make impact onto the ground. I'd like to think that somewhere in the first seconds as they fell to the ground that they reached unconsciousness and at that point God swept them away to a better world.

BTW, I think the better term is to refer to them as the people who fell from the WTC.

[hlthe2b]

81. the "Fallen"

unfortunately every term has some negative connotations... That is why I think that discussing the issue in as sensitive a manner as possible is so important. As difficult as it is for some to even contemplate, to fail to discuss it is to perpetuate that very unwarranted stigma. :shrug:

[LynneSin]

83. I think the uncomfortableness surrounding this topic is due to the photographs

It's difficult to discuss the topic without the inclusion of the photographs. Although the photographs are a very important part of the 9/11 legacy - their viewing is almost like watching a snuff film. The most famous photo "The Fallen Man" is actually a serious of 10-12 photos taken of this man tumbling to his death.

I think we've all witnessed death in many ways but for most it's in the form of someone we know is dying and we have the time to acclimate our bodies & mind to the impending death. But to watch it in a 10 second split creates havoc on our brains because we don't know how to classify it other than a taboo we were told we should never do.

[thereismore]

82. “They were falling into the arms of God, they really were.” The barbaric, medieval kind of God, IMO.

[closeupready]

89. Like most of you, I get choked up again, thinking about the Falling Man, and

I wonder, why is it healthy to keep picking at that wound? Why does the media force us to relive the trauma all over again, make us cry and weep? Makes me angrier every year.

[Inuca]

90. Speechless..... n/t

[markpkessinger]

97. Given the choices they faced . . .

... dying by jumping or by incineration (or pulverization, but they couldn't have known that was in the cards, too), I think I probably would have done the same. How dare anyone cast judgment on those poor souls?

[mulsh]

95. I remember seeng this live on the day it happened and on a

couple of the replays later that day. Since 9/11/01 I've only see photos of the "jumpers" on right wing sites, usually as part of their ghoulish "celebration", sorry, I mean memorial of that day. I've never seen any photos or clips on any progressive or reasonable sites. In fact on Sunday my wife and I were discussing this aspect of 9/11. No one who writes about the events that day seems to ever mention this even or those people.

I have no idea what I'd do under similar circumstances or why people jumped ir of they were forced out of windows due to the blast. But I'm glad people other than right wing propagandists have written about this aspect of 9/11.

[Curmudgeoness]

98. They say at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, women jumped

instead of burning to death so that their families would have a body to identify. I cannot imagine having to make these kind of decisions, but you can never know the reasons behind the choices.

[Marnie]

99. I suspect that the first few lungs full of acrid smoke and the

increasing oven like temperatures would make jumping seem the far less agonizing way of dying.

[markpkessinger]

100. I suppose it was "suicide" in a technical sense, but . . .

. . . I happen to be among those who believe that there are certain instances where such technical "suicide" is a valid option, and in thus, in those instances, carries no shame. For example, I believe those who are terminally ill should have the option of terminating their lives with medical assistance if they choose to do so. The choice the folks at the WTC faced was similar: it wasn't a choice of dying or not, but rather a matter of choosing how that death would occur among a singularly horrific set of choices.

[ScreamingMeemie]

101. I keep walking away...and then coming back to this thread. This is heavy on my heart

and I don't want to offend anyone. But...

...the stigma that is attached to suicide and suicidal behavior needs to end. Suicide is the final act of people who feel they have run out of options. It is horrific, and horrible for the family members and friends who are left to cope. Having to somehow feel ashamed because it isn't a "noble" death makes it that much worse. I am only asking for people to think here. Please.

Thank you.

[lapislzi]

105. Death is certain.

This much we know.

Under different, more "normal" circumstances, those informed of their impending demise as a certainty due to illness, etc., sometimes have weeks or months to absorb the concept and pass through the well-documented stages, hopefully arriving at acceptance. Some have only days or hours, and some are given no warning. Not all make it to acceptance.

I think it's a rare occurrence to be faced with the certainty of one's own death as a matter of minutes. Those trapped in the towers had maybe five minutes to process this knowledge. Maybe a little longer. Our emotional landscapes are not configured to process knowledge of this gravity quickly.

Think about it. Those who were able to get past denial immediately realized that survival was an impossibility. So they made their choices as the the manner of their death. Violence had already occurred, and more violence and suffering was inevitable. In no way could any of those choices be considered suicide.

I now understand the zen koan of the monk and the tiger and the cliff and the strawberry.

[ScreamingMeemie]

106. You have failed to see my point.

Suicide should not be considered a shameful act.

Do I believe what happened on 9/11 was suicide? No.

Is suicide something that family members should be ashamed of? No.

Suicide and suicidal behavior is a treatable medical condition that should be treated as such. Thank you.

[lapislzi]

108. Sorry; thought I was expanding

I didn't mean to misrepresent your post.

As for suicidal ideation being a treatable medical condition, I think that depends on the patient. There are conditions under which a rational human might choose not to live. I would respect that choice.

The point I was trying to make was that 9/11 victims were faced with certain death within a fairly finite time frame, much like a terminally ill patient, except on a vastly accelerated scale. I do not believe that one could or should call it "suicide" (in the conventional sense) in either case. I know the difference between accepting and managing one's inevitable death, and taking one's own life due to emotional distress or pathology.

9/11 victims were not offered the choice to live or to die. Having no choice, they chose the manner of their own deaths.

No disrespect intended. Peace to you.

[Withywindle]

103. kick

Because this story is worth telling and thinking about.

[ChazII]

104. +100

Agree that this story is worth telling again and again.

[adigal]

107. These are the people who haunt me too..a couple held hands

as they fell. And some people tried to windmill as they fell, as if they were better off landing upright. None of this was consciously done - I think it was just a reaction to the nightmare they faced. I pray none of us ever goes through anything like this again.

Peace.

[Evasporque]

109. WWI pilots had no parachutes and when planes burned jumped or shot themselves...nt

[okieinpain]

110. what do you guy's think of the 9/11 special that was on cbs.

you could hear the people hitting the top of the concourse and it was one or two it was a constant pounding, it must have been hell on earth where they were at.

[liberalhistorian]

111. I remember being glued to the live reports that horrible and

unforgettable afternoon, after my workplace was shut down and I took my son out of school, and seeing the jumpers live, as it happened, which was shown before the networks truly realized what it was and what was happening. I remember my family and I asking each other "is that really what we think it is?" and just being in even more horror-struck shock. I think one of the reasons why so little is said about it is precisely because it is so horrible to even contemplate and to remember for those who saw it live and on the ground.

I've often wondered what I would have done had that been me and had I been faced with that so-called "choice" (which wasn't really a choice, and yet it was, iykwim). I hate fire and heat and dying by fire and smoke is one of my absolute worst nightmares. The jumpers may not have had a choice in the date, time and reason for their deaths, but they did have an ultimate choice of HOW. Faced with a choice between being slowly burned alive and ten or so seconds of flying terrified through the air before the "merciful" final impact, I'm pretty sure I'd take the jumping. That's not to say that that would be an exactly "pleasant" way to die, either, just far preferable to the alternative. Then again, I wouldn't even really know until I was in that circumstance, and neither would anyone else. You can speculate all you want on what you'd do, but you don't ever truly know until you're actually in that situation.

While I understand what she's saying about it being a way for them to "take control", I'm not really sure that that's what they were actually thinking. They probably didn't have much time and were in too much turmoil to really put it in those terms.