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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:29 PM
Original message
US will veto Palestinian statehood bid at UN
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration says it will veto any bid by the Palestinians to seek statehood recognition at the U.N. Security Council.

The administration had long said it opposed such a unilateral move by the Palestinians. The U.S. has been working to prevent a Palestinian resolution from coming before the council.

Until now, Washington had not explicitly said it would use its veto to prevent passage. On Thursday, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said that if the issue comes to a vote in the Security Council, the U.S. will veto it.

<snip>

Nuland says the U.S. view is that the Palestinian effort is misguided and that statehood should come only as a result of negotiations with Israel.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_US_MIDEAST_UN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-09-08-14-25-18
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TeamsterDem Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. Liberty - if we say so. nt
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court jester Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. Obama said so...
Obama calls for Palestinian state based on 1967 borders

REUTERS - ..."His blunt language toward U.S. ally Israel about the need to find an end to its occupation of Arab land could complicate his talks on Friday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu while easing Arab doubts of his commitment to even-handed U.S. mediation.

“The dream of a Jewish and democratic state cannot be fulfilled with permanent occupation,” Obama told an audience of U.S. and foreign diplomats at the State Department in Washington..."

more: http://www.france24.com/en/20110519-obama-calls-mideast-plan-based-1967-borders-israel-palestinian-territories


Imagine a corporation that would accept continuous lies from a new hire? LOL

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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Palestine
I am probably one of the strongest supporters of Israel on this board. I support most things that they do - as long as you look at the big picture - it is not hard.

However, I will never understand the opposition to establishing a Palestinian State. An Israeli state was created because of world events - why not create a Palestine based on similar events?

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Because it doesn't solve any real problems
it doesn't settle the issues of borders, ROR and Jerusalem. They are unilaterally stepping away from the established framework for negotiations - how then will these serious issues be addressed? Do they start from scratch?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. And the established framework has been an abject failure
with Israel building more and more Settlements on Palestinian land. And it's been going on for years. It's not as if there's anything to lose with Palestine becoming a state. It's past time for it.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. There is a lot to lose if it locks in the status quo.
it will also put enormous strain on the Palestinians. If they become a sovereign nation, then they have to act like one. Rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza take on new meaning - international law is very clear how a nation can respond when attacked by another sovereign nation.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. the status quo has been locked in for years and years.
And you seem to think that the Palestinians are so backward that they can't handle sovereignty. That's a pretty offensive sentiment.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Do you think Hamas can restrain themselves?
what do you think will happen when sovereignty brings no change? You really think the rockets will stop?

Has nothing to do with being backwards - it is simply naive to think that peaceful coexistence is what every Palestinian wants.
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
68. Yes, because they have in the past. You might remember the whole ceasefire, the one
whose terms Israel continuously refused to recognize and finally broke. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians


Hamas isn't who I worry about restraining themselves.
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
43. They can't handle what little they already do have
What reason is there to assume that Palestinian terrorism would stop if they were recognized as a Palestinian state?
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Recovered Repug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. UN Resolution 181, which created Isreal,
originally divided Palestine into Jewish and Arab areas. There were - shall we say "disagreements" - with the fairness of the division. The rest is history.
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
52. Palestinian State was created together with Isreal by the same
UN resolution in 1947. It was later abolished "because of world events", leaving decades of
incalculable suffering, instability, war and death in its wake. Its restoration and that of the
rights of millions of people populating its land is an absolute moral duty of mankind. And as always,
US opposes it. "They hate us for our freedom". Sure they do, sure they do. Welcome to the next ten
years of "war on terror".
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. how many decades does this have to go on?
The Palestinians and Israelis will no time soon be able to share a single state, so what is the point of continually denying them statehood?

AIPAC is the point, I imagine.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Oh, I think it's a little bit more than AIPAC- though undoubtedly it's a factor. n/t
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. out of curiosity, what other factors do you think there are?
in your opinion...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think even without AIPAC the administration would
fear losing the Jewish vote. In fact, I think that's a bigger factor than AIPAC. In addition, I think that they're (wrongly) afraid that a state would further destabilize the area.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I remember seeing a poll several months back that posited that American Jewish voters
Edited on Thu Sep-08-11 04:02 PM by ixion
supported a separate Palestinian state, but that was several months ago. I do agree with you that there are other factors, but I would disagree that it's the Jewish vote in the US.

Here's the poll. By an overwhelming majority, they appear to support it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x266809
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. A state run by Hamas almost certainly would, Cali.
Fatah may have the West Bank but Hamas still has the Gaza Strip. The latter group needs to be exposed, tried, and convicted for the murdering war-criminal, and quite frankly, neo-fascist scum that they all are.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. The Palestinians deserve a state. It's that simple.
And there is little chance that Hamas would run it.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. But they would be willing to start a civil war to try to run it. nt
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. I agree with you and I certainly hope you'd be right. n/t.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
50. As if Israel is innocent and has no blood on their hands.
The unilateral war on Lebanon in 2006 killed 100s of innocent civilians and yet the UN did nothing to stop them from shelling Lebanon!
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I never said Israel was innocent.
In fact, I have long been critical of Israel's gov't.
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. So then would you agree that Likud " needs to be exposed, tried, and convicted for
for the murdering war-criminal, and quite frankly, neo-fascist scum that they all are."
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. As long as islamaphobia persists?
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Chipper Chat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sure, let's piss off the Arabs even more. Great.
"Seeking recognition" sounds reasonable vis-a-vis "demand recognition" which this doesn't appear to be. Is Cheney still calling the shots?
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Part of Arundhati Roy's "Come September" speech addressed this issue:
"In 1937, Winston Churchill said of the Palestinians, I quote,
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

That set the trend for the Israeli State's attitude towards the Palestinians.

In 1969, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir said, "Palestinians do not exist."

Her successor, Prime Minister Levi Eschol said, "What are Palestinians? When I came here (to Palestine), there were 250,000 non-Jews, mainly Arabs and Bedouins. It was a desert, more than underdeveloped. Nothing."
Prime Minister Menachem Begin called Palestinians "two-legged beasts."
Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir called them "grasshoppers" who could be crushed.
This is the language of Heads of State, not the words of ordinary people."

link to full speech, which is as powerful now as it was in 2002.

Transcription of Arundhati Roy reading and
Ms. Roy and Howard Zinn in conversation
Lensic Performing Arts Center
Santa Fe, New Mexico
18 September 2002

http://nmazca.com/verba/roy.htm




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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
70. People like to forget that Israeli is a colonial-settler state--Chruchhill's analogies
are spot-on and quite accurate, even if he does derive the opposite conclusion from that I would hope most people on this board would.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. What was that about being pro-democracy and for people seeking it?
Perhaps NATO will set up a No Fly Zone over Gaza and the West Bank...no, scratch that..no oil in Palestine, just subjugated people.
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AverageJoe90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. If it weren't for Hamas..........
Palestine wouldn't have nearly as much trouble being recognized. Get the Islamist bastards out of the Gaza Strip & wherever else they might be hiding and that'll make it much easier for everybody. Israel's far right nutjobs & bigots will have a MUCH harder time justifying their B.S. as well. Win-win for all the good guys.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. I wonder if the Palestinians had the same attitude about Bush and his boys
I suspect a large part of the world sees both the US and Israel's governments as "fanatical religious bastards". After all, they have ordered the killing of many more people than Hamas.

But then Israel and the US are Special, and can do no harm.
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. And people wonder why 9/11 happened 10 years ago
Start war after war against Muslim countries and be complicit when it comes to oppressing the Palestinians, then things like 9/11 will tend to happen.

Just sayin'
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Mira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kicked and Recommended for a visual of
Arundhati Roy just look at my avatar photo.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think a unilateral declaration of statehood isn't productive. But, on the other hand
not a whole hell of a lot else has been productive, either, and despite being a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist and defend itself, I do understand the Palestinian frustration with the lack of meaningful forward progress.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. Oh brother. Nt
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
22. Freedom! Democracy! Fuck Yeah!!!!11!!1
What?

Palestinians?

I thought we were talking about Libyans?

Well never mind then, that's entirely different.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Considering Hamas refuses to hold scheduled elections
supporting Palestine does not mean supporting freedom or democracy.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I'm sure that's why the US is vetoing Palestinian statehood..
There couldn't possibly be any other reason than the corruption of Hamas.






:eyes:
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Beside the Palestinians unilaterally rejecting the established framework for negotiations
for an act of political theater that might make things worst?

How does this act get them any closer to solving issues like borders, ROR or Jerusalem? What basis is there for negotiations - why can't Israel now say "OK you are a country - now leave us alone.".
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. At one time I was very strongly pro-Israel...
Over the years I have reached the conclusion that it really makes no difference at all what the Palestinians do, they are a people forever doomed to be without a land.

I'm reminded of that old saying about Mexico; poor Mexico, so close to the United States and so far from God.

At least the Mexicans still have some of their own country left.

"A land without people for a people without land".. Ironic, eh?
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to make the wrong choice
it wasn't that long ago that Palestinians commuted freely into Israel for good jobs - then the bombings started. The Israelis unilaterally withdrew all settlers and soldiers from Gaza - then the rocket attacks started.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Interesting that you don't disagree with me..
I guess Palestinians are just too stupid to understand their situation, they need us to tell them what to do.

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. No - they are too fragmented
and unwilling to confront the most radical and extremest amongst them. The PA and Hamas are locked in a violent power struggle - the idea that they are presently capable of forming a functioning nation is nonsense.

They know what they have to do - they just need to do it.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is 180º from what the Democratic party said 7 years ago.
When Kerry was the candidate in 2004.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
39. I don't think that Kerry
supported a unilateral declaration of independence.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Maybe not, I don't know. I know that the United States stated our declaration of independence
And we didn't have to go to any UN meeting to get a vote on it beforehand either.

Kerry supported the "2 State Solution" in Israel, as most scholars do.
Israel has been dragging their feet for more than 2 decades, just putting off the inevitable.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
29. Israel has a stranglehold on the the US,
and I wonder how long it's going to continue.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. Of course we will.
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. sounds like a mistake to stop it
Edited on Thu Sep-08-11 09:55 PM by mitchtv
It may slow down settlments and destruction of groves and farms, so I support a new country
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-08-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
34. This is a stupid move.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. no arab spring for you in palestine?
interesting.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. What part about that comment made you think that?
I think it is a stupid move for the United States to veto what can only be said to be an almost unanimous recognition of a Palestinian state. The act is islamaphobic to the core.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. How is it "islamaphobic to the core"?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Scary Hamas?
Edited on Sat Sep-10-11 05:26 AM by joshcryer
Big scary Hamas! The UN and the international community recognizes far more deeply morally corrupt individuals and countries. By recognizing Palestine Hamas' influence would be highly mitigated.

edit: I am not calling Warren Stupidity islamaphobic, to clarify if anyone read my comments that way, apologies in advance if it was indeed read that way (I was referring to the act of vetoing a Palestinian state, every other UNSC member is slated to vote for it, if I recall correctly).
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. That doesn't answer the question.
So, let's try again: "How is it "islamaphobic to the core"?"
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I dunno, you're the one who invokes Hamas immediately.
Big scary Hamas must be scary, no?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I didn't "invoke" Hamas, did I?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Post #58.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #38
58. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
36. So what ?
Edited on Fri Sep-09-11 05:31 AM by malaise
The US also supported apartheid.

:puke:

add
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
71. And still does.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
37. The PA knows that, the SC move is a gesture. The GA will let them in.
The general assembly will let them in as not quite a full state, the US will be isolated in its intransigence on this issue. There is no good reason to not grant Palestine full statehood. In fact doing so would go a long way to putting an end to the endless crisis. In whose interests is it to keep the status quo?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
40. Good.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
66. Why do you think it's good?
This move by the US is churlish and ill-thought out. There's nothing good about it at all, so I'd like to know what you think is good about it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. To whom?
:puke: indeed.
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bergie321 Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-11 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
51. They don't have enough oil
To qualify for "democracy".
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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
55. If only Arafat had taken yes for an answer...
... from the most left-wing government in Israeli history in 2000, the Palestinian nation would have already celebrated its tenth anniversary. Instead we seem farther from peace than ever before. Both sides have made mistakes and done their share of making things worse since then, but to me, that was the by far the biggest blunder since 1967.

Everybody knows what the final deal should be, within rough parameters. The Palestinians will get a state on most of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. A lot of Israeli settlements will be dismantled. Others will stay with Israel, and other pieces of land will be transferred to compensate. If the mass of Israelis were convinced that the Palestinians would stop all violence once this happened, we could have peace tomorrow. But they don't. Are they right or wrong in that belief? Would Hamas settle for that, or would they continue to want the end of Israel?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. The Myth of the Generous Offer
Edited on Sat Sep-10-11 05:35 AM by Douglas Carpenter


The Myth of the Generous Offer


Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump
.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

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BlueCheese Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. It may not have been "generous"
But it was still an independent state, and it definitely exceeded anything the Palestinians were going to get by violence. Accepting that deal and then negotiating further after years of peace had built up goodwill would have certainly been a better course than the second intifada. Can anyone say that the Palestinians are better off now for having rejected that deal?
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-10-11 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
72. Freedom and democracy for all!! Except Palestinians.
:eyes:
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