I'm not going to jump on the Hoffa bandwagon. We've been screaming for less inflammatory rhetoric.

[cherokeeprogressive]

Slay me with unrecs if you want. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't reach for the low-hanging fruit. I never have.

To say that an electoral map with crosshairs (and I'm iffy on whether or not those crosshairs repesented a rifle scope) represents the type of thought that gets people killed while defending what Hoffa said puts us in an untenable position. I'm sorry, but that's what I believe.

You can say that "take them out", means whatever you want it to mean. To me it's rhetoric that only ups the ante to the point that makes the other side think "if they're going to take US out, we need to take THEM out first". It INVITES violence. I'm sad that DU'ers don't see that.

It's divisive. It's violent in its interpretation. It's what we've been saying here at DU goes beyond the pale in the context of political discourse, and likely to provoke violent reaction from the other side.

Some of DU's most beloved posters are here defending this kind of speech. I'm shocked. Are we not better than them? Are we not able to get our point across without veiled references to violence at the ballot box? I'm starting to wonder.

Vote for Obama or "get taken out" at the ballot box. That's what I take from Hoffa's introduction. What would you say that means, exactly? Shoot them before they can exercise their constitutional right to vote?

Please... let's be the party that tones down the rhetoric because our message is the better one.

I think Hoffa went too far. I think he stepped over the rhetorical line. He made a statement that could be interpreted by THEM as condoning violence at the polling place.

I can't go there.

[JVS]

1. We, Kemosabe?

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. We, Tonto. n/t

[madfloridian]

3. I think he did just great. Nothing wrong with honest speaking.

And the ones who are trying to harm our country for the sake of their cold-hearted ideology are truly SOBs.

[Luminous Animal]

4. Really. So when sports figures say they are going to take out their opposition...

do you assume that his/her team is going to resort to violence and the other team in turn?

Interesting.

Hoffa did nothing but employ a regularly used competitive idiom in context with his intent.

"Jimmy Hoffa Jr: “Everybody here’s got to vote. If we go back & keep the eye on the prize, let’s take these sons of bitches out”"

Even you had to twist Hoffa's phrase. You put the cart before the horse. Hoffa's statement says... vote for Obama and doing so will take the sonofabitches out. You've perverted his statement by claiming it says... if you don't vote for Obama, you'll be taken out.

More opposite world on DU.

[hfojvt]

5. not me

I have been asking for political leaders to fight for the working class and to inspire the working class to fight for themselves, and Hoffa did just fine in that regard.

But I went the other way too.

I thought it was a huge leap to go from Sarah Palin's rhetoric to the actual violence. But in that case, WE, on the left, made the same case that Faux is making now.

It's not a valid case now, and I didn't think it was a valid case then.

[Tx4obama]

8. The only reason shit got stirred over this issue was because FoxNews spent half a day ...

reporting an edited version of Hoffa's quote - leaving out the first part about 'the vote'


Here's a link below regarding what the assholes at FoxNews did

FoxNews Doctors Hoffa Speech To Fabricate Call For Violence
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109050003

[JDPriestly]

11. So now we suspect that Cherokeeprogressive watches Fox.

I guess I didn't think of it as violent because I didn't hear the Fox version.

Why would anyone watch Fox?

[Tx4obama]

21. I don't know what you're talking about. I was talking about yesterday when FoxNews stirred the shit

up by airing the EDITED quote out of context.

YOU are the only one that referred to Cherokeeprogressive, not I.

[LiberalFighter]

49. FYI -- Fox wasn't the only one that misreported. ABC did too.

Not to the same extent but still bad.

[ontime1969]

23. well not exactly true

I saw this on Fox for the first time and they actually played the whole thing, the only time that i saw it cut was during the prior segway pre-commercial. No one on the right really believes Hoffa is describing physical violence. Most of the stories on FOX about this seem to be the fucking hypocrisy that we are seeing from the administration and some in congress (pointing at progressives) about Anti-Vitriol stance that was pledged. What garbage in the first place. Why all the dishonesty? I'm not defending FOX either, they got issues. But they and the right, have a point on this i hate to say, the Progressives have done no service to the avg dem with their anti vitriol campaign. Why is everyone shocked that the repubs would try and call them on it.

Look folks, most reasonable people know that this is all a bunch of BULLSHIT from both sides. I mean really, I don't know a single Republican or Democrat in the real world, that can admit with a straight face that any of these politicians or commentators are serious with these this stuff. We all know its just slang and a matter of speech. Both sides do it, we do it at work, In school and it is done on this web site and others all the time. You all know it also. How many times have I read on this very site that Bush was another Hitler and comparing the right to actual Nazis? Now a dumb ass for sure, but another Hitler? Really...any one here who has a basic 12th grade education knows that's laughable and completely unrealistic. Same with the repubs, they can say Obama is a socialist all they want, but the fact is we all and they all know that he is not trying to force the USA in to a Stalinist society like the USSR was during the mid 20th century. Both sides need to get on with the real issues, not this silly crap that we all have been doing since kindergarten. Don't play into it. As long as we cant get real with our selves we cant get real with each other, much less the other side.

[Luminous Animal]

27. Haha! Nice try.

[Tx4obama]

30. Monday afternoon FoxNews played the edited out of context quote several times

They stirred up the shit and got everyone outraged all over the internet.
Then later one of their talking heads finally played the full quote.

FoxNews and the right do NOT have a point. This whole 'fake outrage' BS is their doing.

FoxNews is the one that owes Hoffa an apology for playing an edited quote all afternoon yesterday in order to smear him!

Related story: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109050003

[Tx4obama]

6. Anyone that reads the FULL quote can tell that it has NOTHING to do with violence.

Hoffa: “Everybody here has a vote. If we go back and we keep the eye on the prize. Let’s take these sons of bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.”
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/james-hoffas-full-take-these-sons-of-bitches-out-quote-everybody-heres-got-a-vote/


The Tea Party’s ridiculous hissy fit over Jimmy Hoffa
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/the-tea-partys-ridiculous-hissy-fit-over-jimmy-hoffa/2011/03/03/gIQAST2C7J_blog.html

[Luminous Animal]

7. It's quite remarkable that no one seems to have ever heard that phrase before

in a nonviolent context.

Hell, I've heard it on a touch football field and never once thought that friends and family were threatening to murder me.

[Major Hogwash]

15. Oh, there's a "full quote" now, huh?

Clever, very clever, but it won't work -- this is DU!!

:rofl:

[Waiting For Everyman]

9. Siding with RW lies - I can't go there. n/t

[JDPriestly]

10. Oh. Ever heard of projection.

It's the term that applies when you think someone else thinks like you do.

You know what I thought when I heard the term "take em out"? I thought it meant take them out of government, our of Congress. Vote them out.

I did not think of it as having a violent meaning although I suppose it could.

[backscatter712]

12. Fuck that. Civility's dead. We do unto them what they're willing to do to us.

Anything else is fighting with one hand tied behind our backs.

[emilyg]

16. I;m sure you won't complain

when they're not civil towards us. Did you forget Obama's speech in Az.?

[backscatter712]

18. They never have been civil to us.

And every attempt to be civil to them has resulted in them spitting in our faces.

I'm done being nice. If they want a war, we should give them one.

[Major Hogwash]

13. You've been reaching for low-hanging fruit ever since you've been here!

Don't deny it!!

LoL

[TeamsterDem]

14. LOL how ridiculous

You should read a transcript of what he actually said. Right before "take them out" he spoke of voting.

Let's please not allow Fox News to define our own positions articulated by those advocating our position. If they truly get out of line then they should apologize. But to say a politician should be "taken out" by voting, I've no idea how that translates into violence except in the minds of those who either want to hear something specifically or don't know the whole story.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. Yeah, yeah, we're supposed to turn to quivering masses of protoplasm if

the Republicans pretend that their feelings are hurt.

That's the New Democratic way. Do anything you want, as long as it doesn't send the Republicans into a fake outrage campaign.

[Major Hogwash]

19. Don't take this the wrong way, but ...

we actually are quivering masses of protoplasm according to the scientists.

Did you read that one article that came out the other day that said that Neanderthals were breeding with our ancesters millions of years ago?
That could explain a lot about how the GOP party came to be.
It's just science.

[loyalsister]

20. I complained when it was used in reference to Obama

Not going to turn around and say it's acceptable when our side uses it. The english language is full of confrontational phrases and words that don't have violent connotations.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Please provide a quote referencing Obama (or any and all Democrats for that matter).

[loyalsister]

25. It came from a former friend

who posted it as her status on facebook. "I'm very scared of this Obama-nation. I wish someone would take him out." I considered it revolting, hateful, and kind of dangerous - considering the likely make up of her friend list.

[Luminous Animal]

28. Quite different than saying, let's go vote and take him out...

Which is what Hoffa said. I have no idea what your friend's intent was but, if she was advocating an electoral solution she should have said so... LIKE HOFFA DID. Unbelievable that anybody would imagine that voting to take out your opponent has anything to do with violence.

Do you believe that when sports figures talk about taking out their opponent from the competition that they are advocating violent means to do so?

[loyalsister]

41. I have heard it more often in a violent context

than any other. I don't think I'm the only one. It was a bad word choice. The english language is expansive enough that he had plenty of choices that did not have any violent connotation.

It doesn't matter who the source is. Using language with violent connotations and imagery is creepy.

[lob1]

24. Thanks for leaving the low hanging fruit for me.

I appreciate it.

[joshcryer]

26. The quote had no violent undertones.

I normally stay out of these trivial spats but let's be honest, the media completely tore up the quote. The mention of votes was in the same freaking breath!

[Luminous Animal]

29. It's ripping out hair time in this bizarro world. I can only expect that the next sports figure

that boasts of taking their opponent out will be similarly excoriated.

[mfcorey1]

31. That is the problem now: too much reaching across the aisle like softies. Civility is one sided.

It time to fight back.

[Raine]

32. Being soft on them always works, always has, always will ... NOT. nt

:thumbsdown:

[Sherman A1]

33. I too have a problem with Mr. Hoffa's rhetoric

It simply was not strong enough. I believe that "we" have taken the high road for far too long and frankly this has been class warfare since the 1980's.

[McCamy Taylor]

34. Who has been screaming for less inflammatory rhetoric? I keep hearing "man up."

[Warren Stupidity]

35. 'cause polite and civil is working so well?

since you begged for an unrec, you got it.

[seabeyond]

36. it doesnt really matter. has nothing to do with WH or elected democrats. it is a man

talkig to his group. he can say what he wants

if it was an elected official, or media where they have responsibility in speech that is another.

and i think it was clear taking them out was referring by vote so i think it is all silliness

[kentuck]

37. At least he didn't invoke a 2nd Amendment solution...

As some right-wingers have done. Now that is inflammatory.

[Broderick]

38. Why do you hate fruit

Next thing you might say something bad about kittens and ponies.

[TBF]

39. Hoffa did not go too far, But he's yelling at the wrong people. That tirade of his

ought to be aimed at Congress and the other rich fucks rather than working folks. More wedge driving ...

[Odin2005]

40. Fuck civility. There is no being civil and kind to these fuckers.

They are a EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO THE REPUBLIC and must be stopped.

[TwilightGardener]

42. I stand with Mr. Hoffa. Everybody's got a vote, let's take these sons of bitches out!

[WilliamPitt]

43. We?

Got a mouse in your pocket?

:)

[socialist_n_TN]

44. Well some of us aren't pacifists.........

And Hoffa's quote was taken WAY out of context. Not exactly a "second amendment remedies" moment from the left. But if they want to take it that way. sobeit. I want the proto fascists who dream of killing "socialists" (and that moniker includes mealy mouthed, so called "liberals" and "centrists" too) to think before they decide to pull the trigger. To think about who might shoot back.

I believe in self defense, both personally and for my class.

[Javaman]

45. While you won't go there, Hoffa will. And I'm very thankful for that. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. SEE? It's this kind of thinking that has allowed the Rethug/Teabaggers to

put the Democratic Party on the defense for years. They sling any hate speech/hate rhetoric they want and get away with it. The Teabaggers/Rethugs embrace it all. Democrats? Not so much. We MUST STOP PLAYING NICE. We cannot continue to take a knife to a gunfight. This is too important.

"Please... let's be the party that tones down the rhetoric because our message is the better one."

Obama? Is that you?

Are you fucking kidding me with that statement?

I disagree with your entire post. Take them out can mean: Take them out to dinner...take them out to a movie...take them out of an ELECTION...did you hear the entire speech? Or did you get your info from the edited Faux News clip? Democrats don't kill or disenfranchise voters. RETHUGS/TEABAGGERS DO! Dammit. Every time a Dem/Liberal/Progressive fights back...we have to hear this wimpy shit from our side. ..."don't be mean to the poor Teabaaggers." BULLSHIT. I say we need MORE OF THIS KIND OF FIGHT.

[dionysus]

47. some seem to think if we get mad enough and scream and yell loud enough all our problems will vanish

:shrug:

[Dreamer Tatum]

48. K&R and keep it up. nt