I respect "Try and Fail" a lot more than "Half-Ass and Capitulate"

[bluestateguy]

I think I speak for many other too on this point (although please do chime in).

I respect a president who advances a bold and significant plan, works his tail off to get it done, but ultimately fails, as opposed to a president who advances some Third Way triangulation bullshit that comes straight out of a DLC policy seminar and even then compromises away what few good things are in such a plan so as to get bread crumbs from Congress.

So Obama should follow Eugene Robinson's advice and go big. Then fight like hell for it for the next year, knowing full well that it will not pass Congress. He will earn the respect of his base and even earn respect from those coveted independents who are so important to him.

[villager]

1. Exactly so. It's the willingness to *fight* for what's right that reveals character

n/t

[phantom power]

2. Yes, and the related point is that "try and fail" moves the goalposts over time.

The GOP understands this, while the Dems to not appear to.

[gkhouston]

16. "Half-ass and capitulate" also moves goalposts.

Again, something the GOP understands that Dems apparently don't.

[young but wise]

3. I rather get some good things than getting absolutely nothing.

[bullwinkle428]

4. If today's Republicans agree to it, then it's anything but a good thing.

[young but wise]

6. Exactly, they haven't agree with anything Obama has so far.

[jeff47]

26. Half-assing it is worse than nothing.

You are getting worse than nothing, because the half-ass compromises don't work. Then, that failure is used to discredit all future tempts to complete the ass.

[QC]

5. Exactly! n/t

[frazzled]

7. Yet "Try and Fail" gets you pretty much nowhere except some "respect"

It might get you a little respect from the stick-to-your-guns crowd, but trying and failing won't ward off a recession, it won't get anyone more health care, it won't get anything but failure in the end. One expects that some things will fail, but you don't actually try to fail when you're running a country, especially when the stakes are so high. There are lines in the sand, but I don't see one that has been irreversibly hit yet. Many times delay or non-immediate attention is equated with half-ass or capitulation here, as if everything could be achieved at once. Other times, bitter trade-offs that need to be made with a take-no-prisoners opposition are written off as capitulation, ignoring the things that were gotten in the bargain--things that can mean real lifesaving results in some people's lives (like an extension of unemployment benefits).

Are we still arguing points like it would be better to have no health care bill at all, with the corporate status quo, than to have an imperfect one that covers 33 million more people and prevents people from getting denied coverage when they get really sick and that forces insurers to spend 85% of their profits on actual health care costs? Because I don't buy that argument.

I think I speak for many others too on this point.

[bluestateguy]

8. I could agree with you if we were dealing with a reasonable Republican Party

Like once existed in the 1960's and 1970's.

[jeff47]

24. It changes the makeup of Congress

Republicans have been trying and failing for 30 years. That's why we are in the position we are in now.

So yes, you won't get what you want next year. But you can get everything in 10 years.

[Angry Dragon]

9. young and frazzled

If one never stands and fights you will
never know what you could have gotten

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. If the reformers of the past had had the same attitude as today's Democrats,

willing to settle for whatever the other side was willing to concede without a fight, here is what the U.S. would look like today:

1. Women would be allowed to vote if their husbands or other male relatives let them

2. Slaves could not be beaten or otherwise abused, and it would not be a crime to help them escape to Canada

3. Workers would get Sundays off if they promised to attend church

4. Child laborers would have to be paid as much as adult laborers, and children under 10 would be prohibited from hazardous occupations

5. Workers could not be killed for trying to organize a union, but they could still be beaten up or fired

[OHdem10]

11. Right on!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

12. You have my agreement

The citrus mambo is the wankie wanker. Ledo's was the giveawy.

[Jamastiene]

13. I wish he would wait to compromise, at least.

He just gives in right away, BEFORE the Republicans even ask for anything. He meets them over halfway, then goes further and further to the right.

[hfojvt]

14. I said tthe same thing, but then sorta wavered

played Devil's advocate even with myself.

The counter argument is, that a big jobs proposal that doesn't pass, actually will create zero jobs. Whereas the stupid payroll tax cut is much more likely to pass (and even that will apparently be a fight, because, although it heavily favors the rich, Republicans want to favor the rich even more. 3.5% of the tax cuts going to the bottom 20% is just too darned much as far as they are concerned, and 46.4% going to the top 20% isn't near enough.) and it will create some jobs.

However, I think the trump card is, that if you fight for a big plan, you can eventually settle for the payroll tax cut. Whereas, if you start out fighting for the payroll tax cut, you will never get anything better and may have to "compromise" on something worse. PLUS. and this is a biggie, fighting for the payroll tax cut makes Democrats look more like Republicans, it means that both parties agree, tax cuts are the way to create jobs.

Much better to clearly distinguish the parties. Show the Democratic party has a better plan, but that Republicans will block it because it does not favor the rich. Come out with a plan that favors the people instead of coming out with a DLC plan that also favors the rich. Give more people a reason to vote for D's up and down the ticket.

[jeff47]

25. You don't have to package it up into a single bill.

You propose a large, sweeping program and split it into separate bills. A few that are 'easy' to pass, a few that are hard to pass, and a few that will never pass.

[polmaven]

15. If the country were not in crisis mode

I would agree with completely. But many of the things on which the president has had to comromise have been far too The teafor the survival of the country to allow complete failure. The tea party has given proof that they would allow the country to fail. The president will not.

[Broderick]

17. Much respect, but you ought see this!!!!! Doom and Gloom for Democrats is not on the horizon!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x763695

39%
VOTE FOR
The GOP Candidate

45%
VOTE FOR
Barack Obama


OH HOW THINGS ARE CHANGING FOR US!

[Kermitt Gribble]

18. Agree 100%

When shrub wanted to privatize Social Security, he went on a national tour to promote his bullshit to a citizenry that didn't agree with him. He almost accomplished it by doing that. Why can't Obama do the same for things like single payer (or even a public option, for that matter), ending the wars, strengthening Social Security, raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations, collective bargaining rights, environmental issues, etc, etc.. A majority is already supportive of these issues, aside from the teabagger ditto heads and their repuke masters in DC, so they could be a shoe-in. If he did it for one of these issues I'd have huge respect for the man.

[KG]

19. Try and Fail over and over till you succeed. just ask the civil right movement.

[mitchtv]

20. I agree

just fucking try

[eridani]

21. Not even piddling small shit will be passed by Congress

All the more reason to go big.

[KelleyKramer]

22. Half ass?! It's been 2% ass ...

At this point if Obama got half what he 'said' he wanted it would be a slam dunk.

He has been 2% ass, and I don't call that capitulate...

2% ass = backstabbing traitor.

[ProgressIn2008]

23. What makes you think we're seeing half-assery and capitulation? nt

[Swede]

27. Perfect is the enemy of good

Dans ses écrits, un sàge Italien
Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_is_the_enemy_of_good

[mother earth]

28. Amen.