"Unions are Evil..." Outside of local target

[nadinbrzezinski]

in Poway...

They are trying to gather signatures to get rid of the pension system for the police and fire in this city.

On the way out... me... "UNIONS ARE SO EVIL that this is why you got an eight hour day and weekends."

Signature gatherer said nothing...

Fact is, he is getting paid 3-6 bucks a signature...

Fact is we have our own version of Walker here.

Fact is they need to be confronted... silence means you agree with them.

[haele]

1. I've been seeing them off and on for the past couple months -

I told one flat out - Forcing new employees to participate in a 401K was the deal breaker for the whole petition for me.
Re-negotiating a bad pension plan set up to be a sweetheart deal so the union leaders would support a "business friendly" mayor and city council who was intent on screwing the taxpayers and the city workers anyway would be far more fair than forcing new city employees to have to depend on Social Security when they retire because what would be in the average 401K when they retired would be about 1/4 of what would be in a normal, fair pension plan.

"OOOh, lookie - the newly retired Head Librarian of the city (who came from the private sector as a high ranking consultant ten years prior to begin with) is making $120K a year on her pension...how unfair" ...Even though 80% of the library workers - who have been working for the City for over 30 years - might be eligible for $15 - $25K a year on their pensions, and be lucky to be allowed to participate in some of the HMO plan as part of their retirement medical supplemental plans...

Put the new city workers on a managed 401K set up - and cut their wages some more, and they'd be lucky to have basically what they put into the program when they get ready to pull it out - mainly because the average worker does not make enough and is not a financial guru who actively "manages" their pay and retirement so they can regularly put up to 20% of their salary in their retirement (like my department head making into six figures can), and will probably have to have borrowed from their 401K if they have a family emergency or a run of bad luck just to keep afloat. Most people I know think of their 401Ks and Roth accounts emergency savings accounts, and when we were looking at home loans earlier this year, that was one of the first questions we were asked - do you have a 401K account and how much is in it?

What they did in the 90's was unwise and borderline illegal, but changing the system that radically will hurt the city in terms of quality of the workplace. It's bad enough that a city job is one of the few stable jobs in this city, but they're driving the workforce into a race to the bottom.
And if you take away the retirement benefits and the job stability, you're not going to keep any sort of quality workers at the wages they are being paid now.

Haele

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Methinks they are not getting the sigs though

I have gotten five robo calls from the member of the city council in question (DeMaio). Yes, I have kept track... and I am proud of myself, one decided to LEAVE my local Ralphs after getting noisily confronted by me.

[haele]

5. Well, they are coming up to the deadline to get their measure on the ballot -

Unfortunatly for the "backers" of the proposition (or rather the money behind the backers), most people are like me - they hear the words "401K" and think about what is happening to their own 401K. And most of us know that very few people make big money as city workers. Unless they're the teaparty types (which are only a loud 5% or so of the city), they're not so stingy about paying people less than they're worth just to tighten belts. Most of us want to see belts tightened at the top levels, not the lower levels.

Haele

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Actually I think people are waking up to what's happening

And these people will have a harder time getting things like this on ballot. I just hope they realize dumanis flip flopped and filner is a good democrat.

[Starry Messenger]

2. I sometimes wish we were evil.

Maybe we'd be scarier. Something you wouldn't want to mess with...

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Ah yes Union thugs...

Like this one...



Locally kids wore t-shirts with the monicker.

And of course this one from wisconsin speaks for itself...



RUUUUNNNNNN!

All in good fun... but here is the cartoon image



Alas this is what we fight.

[SlimJimmy]

7. Maybe he was speechless because you had mangled history so badly?

Henry Ford (not the unions) introduced $5.00 per day pay, and the 8 hour workday. That is not to say that the unions haven't done some amazing things for workers, they have. But we don't advance the argument very well, when we get the facts wrong.

It also set a new, reduced workweek, although the details vary in different accounts. Ford and Crowther in 1922 described it as six 8-hour days, giving a 48-hour week, while in 1926 they described it as five 8-hour days, giving a 40-hour week. (Apparently the program started with Saturdays as workdays and sometime later it was changed to a day off.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford

[JoeyT]

8. "Introduced" isn't the same as "Normalized".

Ford introduced it, unions empowered workers and made it the norm with overtime when you go over it.

She didn't say unions invented the 8 hour workday, she said they're why we have 8 hour work days, and she's right.

[SlimJimmy]

9. She explicity implied that the unions were *soley* responsible for the 8 hour work day. That is

factually incorrect. Ford was the first to introduce the concept in his plant. That others ran with the idea is not relevant to my point. The unions did not introduce or invent this idea. At best they copied it. A little historical honesty goes a long way when trying to make a point. If she had said that to me (which she wouldn't because I wouldn't be sitting at an anti-union table) but for the sake of argument, I would have asked her about Ford and his contribution to the advent of $5.00 per day wages (unheard of at the time) and the shortened workday and work week.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. and you have this wrong

Ford was not a saint.. he normalized what started as a demand of Unions starting in the 1870s... I did not realize Ford was such a hero of the labor movement... :sarcasm:

On the plus side, I don't blame you... this crap is not taught

By the way, let me add a picture of some FORD COMPANY goons attacking workers on a picket line oh in the 1930s

[SlimJimmy]

19. No, YOU are wrong. The union never offered nor pushed for these reforms until they

were enacted first by Ford. You aren't allowed to change history, only report it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. You are wrong, the eight hour day was a union MOVEMENT demand

starting in the 1870s. That is HISTORY. I even included some readying, some of it VERY SPECIALIZED.

What Ford did was normalize the demands since it increased his competitiveness. He realized. something his descendants have forgotten, that better pay and lower hours increased efficiency and created a market. He did not accede to this as a good guy.

For the record the 10 hour day was part of labor in the 1820 all the way to the 1850s... after that was finally secured it took a generation for the EIGHT HIOUR DAY to start as a labor demand... as you said, you can report on history, don't make it up.

[tabasco]

25. Hahahahahahahahaha.

That's so wrong it's funny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I know, it is painful...

[SlimJimmy]

34. Reread the thread and links, then come back when you have a clue.

[Occulus]

41. As a union member

you amuse me.

[SlimJimmy]

56. As a union organizer, you amuse me. What I find pathetic is certain

people in this thread trying to tell me what the history of my own organization might be. Truly amusing. We understand where the 8 hour day originated, and we generally don't take credit for it. It's much easier to brag about accomplishments that aren't in dispute.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Funny, the kinights of labor are not in dispute among

working historians...

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

108. HI,

As a union delegate (shop steward) to an organizer, please read this....... :bounce:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

[SlimJimmy]

147. I already have, and you know what? It says that Henry Ford instituted

the first 8 hour day for a major industry. Until someone can show an industry that had more than 400,000 workers under an 8 hour day prior to 1914, then I think history must stand.

[TeamsterDem]

167. The history stands just fine. The problem comes in you not reading it well

Ford instituted the changes at Ford. To say he did it industry-wide denies the obvious, that he had no power to do so. The others followed along eventually, but he didn't institute those changes. They did.

According to the New York Times, Ford's plan affected 26,000 people, not 400,000. I'm not sure where you're deriving the higher figure but it'd be nice if you could back it up with something more reassuring than simply a restatement of it sans source.

[TeamsterDem]

44. No way you can be serious with this. It's not possible to be that misinformed

Terrence Powderly (Knights of Labor) is one of the first to advocate for the 8-hour day in somewhere around 1870. In 1884 the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions set a target date in 1886 to enact just that, and they had a "tiny dustup" in Chicago over just that matter (the whole thing culminating in something called the Haymarket Riot) - not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people in other cities who also struck. In 1917 the IWW forced an 8-hour day in a timber strike. And this says nothing - notably - of Ford's absolutely vehement opposition to unionization, likely contributing to his decision to up pay to keep unions out - something employers were until VERY recently still doing for the same reason.

But Ford first advocated this? When? In 1869 when he was 6 years old? Man, what a visionary!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. IT is, nobody teaches this anymore

what you are seeing is the Gordon Steele Commager History of the Titans of Industry... no serious... and he was not that balsy.

[TeamsterDem]

55. Sadly I must agree

I had to take college classes (labor history specifically) to learn this stuff. When I share with friends the fact that hundreds upon hundreds of thousands were striking in the US for an 8-hour day, people look at me like I'm either so ideologically tilted towards unions that I'm making crap up or that it just "musta" been before the Constitution was signed. LOL

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Preparing a book on this

and hubby is a union man...

[SlimJimmy]

62. And they were wholly ineffective in making much headway. Once Ford instituted

his changes, most other major manufacturers followed suit. I must presume that they taught facts in these college classes, correct?

[TeamsterDem]

67. bwahahahahahahaha

Lemme see if I've got this straight: Susan B. Anthony was ultimately a nothing in terms of women's suffrage because she ultimately couldn't sign the bill (her not being a Congressperson or the president). Both she and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were just some folks making noise but ultimately just Woodrow Wilson gets any credit. That about the size of it? I mean that's the logical extension of your argument: That those who advocate for something mean nothing because it's only those who actually institute said reforms - in your view irrespective of impetus - who deserve the credit. What's the weather like in your universe?

[SlimJimmy]

75. You can't argue the factual basis of my argument on facts, so you go off

on a tangent of disparate factoids in an attempt to tie that in with my argument. That's about as effective as the strikes were to Henry Ford. He made his decision based on economics, not union pressure. I'm sure they taught you that in college as well.

I've said repeatedly in this thread that I admire the unions in this country for what they accomplished. But I won't twist the factual basis of history to show that they did something that they had little influence concerning.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. WRONG, he made it on UNION PRESSURE

once this was done STRIKES stopped for a while... but thanks for playing.

JAYSUS... :banghead:

[TeamsterDem]

103. Sorry pal, but your quote was that Henry Ford brought us the 8-hour day

And in that claim the intrinsic argument exists that unions had no role - something which denies how EVERY employer makes such decisions. Furthermore, your claim makes the broad statement that Henry Ford brought the 8-hour day into common practice in this country, something it most certainly did not do. The FLSA did that by legislative fiat, but the trend - beginning in the late 1700s - was toward an 8-hour day. Hell, the unions began fighting that issue BEFORE your Henry Ford was even born, guy.

I can plainly see that you're going to latch on to the precious single thing you think you know about American labor history and pretend that other related events weren't, but that simply speaks to your incapacity to learn in addition to your recalcitrant and, let's face it, childish offense taken that you've been proven wrong so many times in this thread I dare say it borders on laughable.

The facts are these, if you dare: Unions began pushing in the late 1700s for an 8-hour day. There were many unions with contracts throughout the country which had already extracted that which you seem stuck on believing was "brought to us" by Henry Ford. The US Congress approved an admittedly faulty bill requiring 8-hour days for federal employees well before Ford. And even after Ford, the entire nation didn't switch to an 8-hour system until unions and workers of every stripe were finally able to convince the Congress to require it, something Ford had nothing to do with. Sorry sport, but you're simply wrong on this one. Demonstrably so, in fact.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. And to add some meat to this

the first demand of the FIRST EVER STRIKE in the US... the Printers in Philadelphia in 1776... they wanted a ten hour day and what today we'd call a living wage.

By 1816 the Working Man's Party of New York had as part of it's platform the ten hour day as part of the road to the eight hour day. The party did not survive, but the idea did. What stopped this was the civil war... which the Knights of Labor took up again after the war... by the 1870s the ten hour day was a given and the demands for the eight hour day began in earnest. Of course there is that little aspect of May Day at the Haymarket... which has mostly disappeared from US History.

But all this... well don't matter... I have no idea whether to laugh or cry at this point. It gives far more urgency to completing that history of labor... it really does.

[SlimJimmy]

146. 400,000 workers given the 8 hour day by Ford, and you say this is not

significant? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I really should write a book on the history of labor. At least it would factual.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. The REASONS FORD DID IT were not because he was a nice guy

I don't know where you got that.

He did it because of SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE.Not because he was a nice guy. One of the reasons for dong well was the REDUCTION IN SIGNIFICANT STRIKES. Also he took away the good pay during the depression, but I am sure you did not know that about your hero. Why during the Depression, surprise surprise, strikes in significant form came BACK.

I have no idea why you need to take this point so hard and not get it... the role of labor in American history and in the struggle for the eight hour work day IS NOT IN DISPUTE anywhere, but in you mind. It is so dang basic it is actually in HISTORY TEXTBOOKS. Now the Knights of Labor might not, that is far more inside baseball, but the role of organized labor in the eight hour day is...

I guess the leaders of the civil rights movement that did not live to see it... had no role either in THAT MOVEMENT. That is the core of your argument, that the last person to actually do something is the SOLE SOURCE of that movement... which is silly as can be.

[TeamsterDem]

164. The United Mine Workers won the 8 hour day in 1898

100,000 New York building tradesmen won the 8-hour day in 1872.

The Building Trades Council in San Francisco won an 8-hour day in 1900.

The International Typographical Union won an 8-hour day for most of its workers by 1905.

The Adamson Act of 1916 provided an 8-hour day to all railroad employees.

And the Fair Labor Standards Act provided the 8-hour day to not 400,000 people but to every American (except a few groups).


But yeah, it was Henry Ford who dreamed the whole thing up and brought it to us. LOL. Seriously, just give it up. You're out of your depths on this one. Ford didn't "bring" the 8-hour day to *US*. That was done by others. Ford brought it to Ford. The US Congress and President brought it to us because of all the union agitation on the issue. And those are just the facts. Although I doubt they'll make it into the "book" you're going to write. You know, the "factual" one. bwahahahahahaha

Look, no one here is denying that Henry Ford instituted the 8-hour day at Ford Motor Company. We all agree that he did. Most of us believe he did that for 2 reasons: 1, he was an adherent of welfare capitalism and believed through paying more he could get more customers (although the evidence for this one is sparse and usually emotional, not really based in a lot of in-depth reporting); and 2, that he desperately wanted to keep unions out of FMC and this move - considering the Molly Mcguires of the mines and other pro-labor troublemakers might eventually find some incarnation at Ford - was designed to stave off any mass protests by killing a fundamental want which most union agitators sought. But unlike you, we recognize that labor first and most often brought the 8-hour day, and to a much wider level of applicability (after all, a federal law covers far more people than a corporate policy at a single corporation). And it's the hundreds of other victories INSTITUTED through collective bargaining and eventually a Congressional Act which brought the thing. That's undeniable.

What you're attempting to do here is credit one guy with credit belonging to thousands of people. And yes, sir, since the unions advocated for and won that same thing well before Ford was in the picture, that inherently means that they deserve the credit with both the idea itself along with the vast majority of successes.

[SlimJimmy]

145. He brought the 8 hour day to over 400,000 workers. Name ANY other business that did that during the

same period in history? You can't. And all the bluster you can muster won't make it so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. Oh and readying the Wiki entry for FORD not even they are that balsy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ford_Motor_Company

1913: The moving assembly line is introduced at Highland Park assembly plant, making Model T production 8 times faster.
1913: Ford opens second world branch in Argentina as Ford Motor Argentina
1914: Ford introduces $5 ($109, adjusted for inflation) workday minimum wage – double the existing rate.
1918: Construction of the Rouge assembly complex begins.

They rightfully so mention the doubling of the wage... which for that they get the credit from trained historians, but not the eight hour day... why is that?

(And yes company wiki entries are usually maintained by company staff)

[SlimJimmy]

159. What the Hell does that even mean?

Oh and readying the Wiki entry for FORD not even they are that balsy

[TeamsterDem]

165. Right, except the United Mine Workers achieved that BEFORE Ford

And so did many others. If ability permits, you might wanna read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

[SlimJimmy]

60. I didn't say advocate. I said instituted. I just love it when words are put in my mouth

in order to make I point I didn't make. The unions were wholly ineffective in making any major changes to the workday until Ford *instituted* it in his plant. Other major manufacturers followed suit after they realized how profitable it was. We may not like it, but it is what it is. See my tagline to understand how I feel about this.

[TeamsterDem]

98. Wholly ineffective, were they?

A quick review of a Wiki article reveals that they gained their first 8-hour concession in 1842. 1842, fella, far earlier than 1917 when Ford instituted his program. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

What's so revealing about your intractable stance is that you refuse to acknowledge that in 1886 hundreds of thousands of people protested this very issue and won on several key grounds. Not with Henry Ford, sir, but with the US Congress. Yes, it had holes in it but that's still a demonstrable victory having absolutely nothing to do with Henry Ford. And you're also conspicuously avoiding the fact that many unions had in fact extracted 8-hour concessions far in advance of even Ford's birth, never mind 1917.

But most offensive to logic and history is how you can sit there and so glibly act as though advocates for a cause have nothing to do with the outcome until and unless they themselves sign the law/rule changing the policy in question. Under that distorted logic Nixon was single-handedly responsible for ending the Vietnam War, Barack Obama was singularly responsible for repealing DADT, and I suppose that Abraham Lincoln unilaterally got rid of slavery. Were it not for advocates pushing for each of those changes then they'd have either taken much, much longer to achieve or in a few cases might not have ended at all. But yeah, you're right: The union pressure in Detroit had nothing to do with Ford's "profit" motives, that his decision changes US policy/law, and that he's the only one who did anything in that regard.

Seriously dude, if I were you I'd just retire the claptrap you're peddling here and come back and try on another topic. Well, I'd first bother to read some history on the subject before I shot my mouth off. But hey, who would I be to require knowledge of other people?

[DrunkenBoat]

120. A federal law mandating an 8-hour day for all gov't contracts went into effect in 1912. Likely the

impetus for Ford's move in 1914.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1872470&mesg_id=1877453

What with WWI in the offing:

The first major impetus to development of the Rouge came after the United States entered World War I in 1917, and Ford received a contract to build sub-chasers or Eagle Boats for the government.

http://fordmotorhistory.com/factories/river_rouge/site_description.php

[SlimJimmy]

144. What a rambling peice of tripe, Dude. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. You mean you did not get it?

Executive summary.

Those who worked in the past on a movement get the credit, not those who implement something due to the pressure from those activists.

Or is the ONLY person responsible for DADT repeat the President of the United States?

That is the ridiculous argument you are making.

[SlimJimmy]

158. No, really I got it the first time, Dudette. Did you?

[TeamsterDem]

168. Nothing funnier or perhaps more embarrassing than watching the guy

gettin' schooled in a debate using snarky quips as if that changes the ass-reaming he endured by a superior intellect.

[socialist_n_TN]

61. Bullshit. One of the first demands of workers in

Russia in '17 was for an eight hour day which the Bolsheviks championed. I'm sure it wasn't just in Russia either.

[SlimJimmy]

63. In Russia? Well, then that settles it. I was completly mistaken.

I withdraw all of my responses in this thread. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

In the US it goes back to the 1870s and the Knights of Labor

Haymarket was all about the Eight Hour Day.

[TBF]

73. You are ignoring history - specifically all of the industries that enacted

8 hour days BEFORE Ford. FAIL.

[SlimJimmy]

78. ONE minor industry. FAIL on your part.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. Yup the same industry that actually led the way

in striking for better working conditions. No I don't expect you to know this... but... WHEN WAS THE MODERN STRIKE IN THE COLONIES? Free hint, the answer is in Rayback...

[Mendocino]

135. The United Mine Workers

won an eight hour day in 1898,

but they were just a "minor" union.

[SlimJimmy]

141. Yeah, they really represented a shitload of miners. As I said, until that

total comes to 400,000 or more, they are a minor blip in the establishment of the 8 hour work day for the majority of workers.

Of 150,000 workers, only 8,000 belonged to the United Mine Workers.

Feel free to look it up. It's not hard to find if you try. I'll give you a hint (1902)

[TeamsterDem]

166. How very dishonest

Quoting that same report I'll note that "Coal companies prospered, and union membership soared from 10,000 to 115,000." Another gem is "Commissioner of Labor Carroll D. Wright wrote that of 147,000 strikers, 30,000 soon left the region, and of these 8,000 to 10,000 returned to Europe." So even assuming the losses totaled 40,000, that left 107,000 striking miners. Anyone taking bets on just how many of the strikers were unionized? Probably not all, but a good chunk of them arguably were.

But I'll raise your 400,000 to the entire American workforce (minus a few fields). Tell me again, who brought US the 8-hour day? The guy who did it at one company or the US Government mandating it across almost all industries?

And I'd like to know where you're getting this 400k figure from, as an archived New York Times story from 1917 said that Ford "Gives $10,000,000 To 26,000 Employees" and adds "In all, about 26,000 employees will be affected." That's a lot, but 26k is a ton shorter than 400k, right? So where does that figure come from?

[Chorophyll]

12. The labor movement existed, and was fighting for reforms,

well before Henry Ford came along.

[SlimJimmy]

18. And it was Hnery Ford that first shortened the day to 8 hours. If you want to argue that go ahead,

But you'd be wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Here go argue

http://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/timeline.html

Notice that date and 1906

[SlimJimmy]

35. Notice that it wan't until the late 20's that the 8 hour day was a widespread phenonenom.

And this was due to Ford, not anything the printing union accomplished. Get a clue, then come back with some facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yeah I got a clue... it took three generations

to make those gains, just as it took three to get from dawn to dusk to ten hour days.

You will LOVE Gordon Steele Commager. His book on the TITANS OF INDUSTRY is a must read.

[SlimJimmy]

40. If you had a solitary clue of what I know, you wouldn't be arguing about labor

history with me. You'd be thanking me for getting you away from the wrong path you're on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Oh boy RAYBACK was wrong?

I guess so was Howard Zinn?

JAYSUS...

:banghead:

[SlimJimmy]

47. Yes, talking to you is EXACTLY like that.

:banghead: Facts never get in your way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. So the Kights of labor never existed

and haymarket never happened... those little factoids of US History are just part of my fantasy?

[TeamsterDem]

169. They didn't invent the idea? Really?

"Labor movement publications called for an eight-hour day as early as 1836." Henry Ford wasn't even born yet.

They didn't introduce it." Well, except they did. Many times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States


That what you call "historical honesty," is it? If so please lie to me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Actually FORD accepted what was part of a UNION demand

May I recommend some specialized readying?

Eight Hours for what We Will: Workers and Leisure in an Industrial City, 1870-1920 (Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, 1983) by Roy Rozenweig.

Perhaps for a more general history you could start with A history of American Labor, by Rayback...

Or just a more recent and more general history... Zinn's History is highly recommended.

Is that as specific as you want?

The movement started with the ten hour day... in the 1830s, and after that was obtained it moved into the eight hour day... you think that was companies? They fought this all the way.

<------ doing a history of labor... and while Ford was good in some respects... it was far more self serving than anything else. Oh and he was an antisemite, but that is 'nother story.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. So you are telling me that those historians are wrong?

Gee, who knew? they were just working with PRIMARY SOURCES, not the WIKI.

Fer the bloody record Printers got an eight hour day in 1906... was Ford also involved in the Printing Industry?

[SlimJimmy]

30. And MOST of the workers is the US still worked 12-15 hours per day. It wasn't

until Ford instituted the $5.00 and 8 hour workday, did the idea spread to most other major industries. I guess that little fact eluded you for all these years as you pursued that *Masters* in history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. So your stance is that it was thanks to wonderful Henry Ford

and we should build statues for him. None of the strikes, wild cat and otherwise. or the lines, or other labor actions had a thing to do with this?

Gotcha.

One of the reasons we are where we are.

Master can I have 'nother one?

No, serious I gave you books, go read young man.

[SlimJimmy]

37. No, my stance was, and is, that we can't massage facts to fit our view of the world. My

stance is it would be better to argue that the unions brought us safe working conditions and ended child labor, rather than they brought us the 8 hour day and weekends off. Pick your battles so that you don't have to argue your major points.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Alas the demand for the eight hour week started in the 1870s

but have it your way... I am sure the Ford Corporation will love it.

THAT IS HISTORY... that is FACT. Ford did not do that because he was a friend of labor, in fact he was not... you got a modicum of truth... he did it since he realized instant market means more sales... but to call him a friend of labor is just plain out bizarre. And he did it because of the strikes and threats of strikes. The Ford Plants were full of those... Hell those continued for a long time AFTER THAT.

[SlimJimmy]

43. Please quote me where I said Ford was a friend of labor. Oh, you can't. However, feel

free to quote me where I said he vehemently anti-labor. That you'll be able to find right in this thread. Please, learn to read before you falsely accuse.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Look the eight hour day came from Labor activism

just like the ten hour day... before that. This is established history... and that is the fracking point.

But you are IMPLYING that we should thank Ford for that... m'kay so he was not a friend of labor, at least we can agree in THAT. But this is just plain out bizarre. It is the kind of argument not even Steele Commager would be balsy enough to make.

[SlimJimmy]

51. The 8 hour day came from the need to make a profit. Ford saw this and

instituted something that nearly doubled his profits after two years. Fact. I never said he did it out of the goodness of his heart. And, the union had little to no impact on that decision. Also, a fact.

As I've stated, the unions brought safer working environments, and ended child labor. They were not that instrumental in delivering the 8 hour day or $5.00 a day pay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. WOW... the knights of labor

never existed... and Haymarket never did either. GOTCHA.

WOW!!!!

[TBF]

72. Your true colors are showing through your arguments.

You are no friend of labor.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. What other parts of labor history do you want to surrender the field in?

[TBF]

89. More personal attacks when you've clearly been shown to be wrong

on multiple levels. Pathetic.

[SlimJimmy]

143. More gibberish from you instead of facts. FACTS, you know, those things that we use to bolster our

arguments. Those things that your replies have been lacking.

[TeamsterDem]

52. You'd be well served by your own advice

Unions were demonstrably the first people in the US advocating for the 8-hour day. ALL historical evidence shows them advocating FAR in advance of Henry Ford. All of it, friend. You'd do well to read some of it. Might wanna orient your studies towards the Haymarket Riot/Affair for a rather telling glimpse of the history.

[SlimJimmy]

65. Advocating for, but not coming close to achieving. Facts are a real bitch.

[TeamsterDem]

68. Actually they had, fella. Might wanna check out the IWW's many wins

in just that regard. Or the Teamsters' wins in same. Or many other cases. But you're right, only Henry Ford did it. LOL seriously, you're a riot. Thanks for the laughs.

[SlimJimmy]

76. Wins that actually changed the workday to 8 hours and shortened the workweek by one or two days?

Please provide any link to that and I'll be happy to read it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. I gave you some BOOKS

Rayback History of American Labor is a good start.

The Armies of Labor is a good one too... you can find it in the GOOGLE... lost copyright a while ago.

Of course there are others, but hey... perhaps you could benefit from doing THAT.

[SlimJimmy]

133. Yeah, I'll bet you know all about Google. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Well I did use the google

to order one from Amazon since it is not available in e-form, and also the google to order the other for Nook. I prefer NOOK as a format.

I am actually looking into seeing if I can get my Journals of the American Historical Review in E-Form instead of paper... no, not being ecological... I just don't want the clutter any more. So yes, you could say I used the google... so be it.

Amazon has a lot of these books available, so you can go and find them that way... they also ship USPS, which is a union shop.

Oh and Armies of Labor I have it in both GOOGLE BOOKS and yes, NOOK... the copy originally came from Chicago.

[SlimJimmy]

148. And I have an IPAD with a few electronic books on it. What is your point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. Yse it to go find BOOKS on the HISTORY OF LABOR

that is the fracking point.

[SlimJimmy]

160. And you can use it to download a good spell and grammar checker. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. When one has no other point

the spell and grammar attack...

:thumbsup:

It is as close as Goodwin as we get.

Thanks.

:-)

I think we are truly done now. Live in your fantasy please. The rest of us live in reality.

[TeamsterDem]

104. I've already done so. I'll do so once more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

[MedicalAdmin]

113. Angry little sock puppets abound these days, don't they

Serious scholarly research versus wiki? Hmmmmm? What to do, what to do? I don't know what to believe... :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Well I will admit the wiki has one use and one use only...

as a place to START if you have no clue. And no, not the body of the article... the references...

:-)

I have found a few that way in subjects I had no clue about.

(Alas they usually are for fiction anyways)

What is said is that I could have referenced a basic COLLEGE US History textbook as well, This is like basic US History...

I use it at times as well... we all do.

It makes me though want to go and author the articles on this, alas it is already done. Problem with wiki is... Ford can send it's trolls to make good ol' Henry the HERO of labor. It makes me barf... funny shit though... I have found that the SPANISH version of wiki is less manipulated though than the English version. Funny, I know.

[MedicalAdmin]

170. I sometimes amuse myself by logging on with a new identity ...

on wiki and messing with Michele Bachmann's profile. She must have someone on staff whose full time job is to manage that info because it never stands for more than an hour.

[DrunkenBoat]

115. There was already an 8-hour day prevailing in several important industries,

including mining & a lot of the construction trades.

Average hours of work were nowhere near "12-15" even in 1900. Depending on the industry they ranged from 7-8 (coal mining) to 10 (construction) to 11.8 (manufacturing).

Table 3: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:elMl0JXSxZkJ:eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whaples.work.hours.us+In+1912+the+Federal+Public+Works+Act+8+hour+day+goldmark&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Also a 1914 federal law that all government contracts were to operate on an 8-hour day.

Which was likely the real impetus for Ford.

Who, BTW, reduced his $5 a day wages during the Depression.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. By the way welcome to DU

:hi:

[DrunkenBoat]

117. Thanks!

[TBF]

14. Nice revisionist history from a corporate perspective -

1886: The year of the Great Uprising of Labor, including the May Day Strike for the eight-hour day.

1906: The eight-hour day is widely instituted throughout the printing industry.

http://www.pbs.org/livelyhood/workday/weekend/timeline.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I truly do not blame people for not knowing that

We really do not do Labor history any more...

[TBF]

16. No joke ... I see all these people on Facebook today starting to talk about 9/11

"i know it's early but ... blah blah troops etc..."

I swear Fox news must've skipped right over labor day and is broadcasting 24/7 about the upcoming anniversary of 9/11.

It's disgusting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Yup... why I am writing this...

slowly, but surely... it is a pain to do all this... but it needs to be done. I will probably have it for free download and let the AFL-CIO into it as well

[SlimJimmy]

24. If you are going to use a fact to bolster your argument, make sure to inlcude it

in context. Otherwise, you look foolish for making the attempt.

By 1905, the eight-hour day was widely installed in the printing trades – see International Typographical Union (section) – but the vast majority of Americans worked 12-14 hour days.

On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day and cut shifts from nine hours to eight, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, and a significant increase in profit margin (from $30 million to $60 million in two years), most soon followed suit.

In other words, the unions had little or nothing to do with the decision. It was based purely on corporate motives (profit)

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Yup them strikes and wild cat strikes

had none to do with the gains of labor. It was all the goody folks at corporate... you like Elite History, don't you?

[SlimJimmy]

32. Not when it came to an 8 hour work day. It took the success of Ford to bring other

companies to the fold. I guess doubling profit in 2 years was a pretty good motivator for other companies. Or maybe it was those wildcat strikes that did it? Uh, don't think so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Yup you like elite history...

forget all the ones I suggested... concentrate just on the ones from Economic Historians...

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. I think you should watch the mirror

for that.

[Occulus]

45. Henry Ford in no way brought about the desire or demand for an eight-hour work day

This goes back to 1817.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. The ten hour day was part of the working man's platform

of New York in 1817, you are very correct. First ten hours, next eight.

[TBF]

71. I stated the facts - 8 hour work days were fought for and adopted in some industries

many decades before Ford "came up with" that brilliant idea. But nice try.

[SlimJimmy]

86. One minor industry. Major changes didn't occur until Ford had instituted the changes in his plant.

But thanks for playing.

[Occulus]

38. Unions kept it

and that's a fact, Jack.

[DrunkenBoat]

112. You're mistaken, I'm afraid.

Britain had passed its first effective Factory Act, setting maximum hours for almost half of its very young textile workers, in 1833....

On March 31, 1840, President Martin Van Buren issued an executive order mandating a ten-hour day for all federal employees engaged in manual work....

The hub of the newly launched movement was Boston and Grand Eight Hours Leagues sprang up around the country in 1865 and 1866....In response to this movement, eight states adopted general eight-hour laws....

The public backlash (from Haymarket) ...dampened the drive toward eight hours -- although it is estimated that the strikes of May 1886 shortened the workweek for about 200,000 industrial workers, especially in New York City and Cincinnati.

A hundred thousand workers in New York City struck and won the eight-hour day in 1872, mostly for building trades workers....

In the aftermath of 1886, the American Federation of Labor adopted a new strategy of selecting each year one industry in which it would attempt to win the eight-hour day... The United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners was selected first... It is estimated that nearly 100,000 workers gained the eight-hour day as a result of these strikes in 1890....

The United Mine Workers won an eight-hour day in 1898...

...In 1898 the Court upheld a maximum eight-hour day for workmen in the hazardous industries of mining and smelting in Utah in Holden vs. Hardy...

The Building Trades Council (BTC) of San Francisco, under the leadership of P.H. McCarthy, won the eight-hour day in 1900...

By 1905, the eight-hour day was widely installed in the printing trades...

...The percentage of states with maximum hours laws climbed to 58 percent in 1910...

In 1912 the Federal Public Works Act was passed, which provided that every contract to which the U.S. government was a party must contain an eight-hour day clause....

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/whaples.work.hours.us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

[SlimJimmy]

131. Interesting reading you provided. I didn't know that Ford employed more than half

of workers with five day weeks.

The most notable action was Henry Ford's decision to adopt the five-day week in 1926. Ford employed more than half of the nation's approximately 400,000 workers with five-day weeks. However, Ford's motives were questioned by many employers who argued that productivity gains from reducing hours ceased beyond about forty-eight hours per week. Even the reformist American Labor Legislation Review greeted the call for a five-day workweek with lukewarm interest.

[DrunkenBoat]

137. This was your claim: "Henry Ford (not the unions) introduced... the 8 hour workday"

Your claim is false.

Your goalpost moving is not interesting. The five-day workweek is not coextensive with the 8 hour workday.

[SlimJimmy]

138. Learn to read. And it *was* indeed Henry Ford that introduced the 8 hour

workday (in 1914) to over 400,000 workers. The union had little or no impact on his decision. Is twisting what people say a hobby? If it is, you're really not that good at it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. GASP!!!!!

This is the kind of revisionist history that makes my head spin.

It don't matter what evidence you are shown I see...

GASP... truly, GASP.

[SlimJimmy]

142. In YOUR world the earth is still flat. In mine, I use facts as my guide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Actually it is the other way around

and the sun goes around the earth, it's name is Henry Ford.

You are arguing ESTABLISHED history... and serious dude, not even Henry Steele Comager would be that balsy.

[DrunkenBoat]

149. Ford didn't have 400K workers in 1914. Try 13,000. And you.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Yup, per their own time line they did not

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ford_Motor_Company

And not even Ford is that balsy. They claim the five dollar hour salary, which is again, historic fact... none is going to argue about it. They do not claim to be the innovators in the eight hour day.

Wiki pages for large corps are maintained by company personnel... it is part of protecting a brand.

[TBF]

13. I see one of those outside my local Target it will be the last time

I enter that parking lot. And he'll be wise to get out of the way as I exit.

[Lucian]

26. Why are they doing that outside of Target?

Where was this?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Poway, near san Diego

our local city council has our own version of Governor Walker. They want to take pensions off and replace them with 401K for police and fire. Oh his name is Carlo de Maio

[BOG PERSON]

64. i support getting rid of police pensions

F.T.P. (fuck the police)

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. And you support getting rid of yours too?

That is the end result you know.

[SlimJimmy]

69. defined benefits are quickly becoming a thing of the past. After I retire in a few years, those

behind me will all have 401k's instead. Sadly, it's the wave of the future.

[TBF]

74. Good thing you got yours.

Gee, where do I usually hear that argument? Right, in corporate board rooms.

[SlimJimmy]

77. I work for the government and will retire in a few years. But thanks for playing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. So your general attitude is, I got mine FRACK YOU?

[TBF]

92. "thanks for playing"? This is just a game to you obviously. Some of us

have been working on these issues for years. I grew up in a strong union family and spent time as a kid painting strike signs.

This isn't a game to me - I am anti-capitalist, anti-imperialism, and anti-stupidity. At least get your labor history correct if you're going to come on a democratic board and start arguing. Nice way to show respect and solidarity on Labor Day weekend.

Labor organizer my ass.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. HOORAY for corporate murika!!

I am glad you are on THEIR SIDE... and no, I am not being sarcastic in the least. You are their best ally.

And no, won't bother 'xplaining to you why.

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

85. Even more pathetic - someone at your pay/grade doing the rich boys' work for them. nt

[SlimJimmy]

94. I represent the union, not the other way around. What have YOU done for the

union in your lifetime? Other than being a member?

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. No wonder labor is losing...

no, my irony meter is going off the scale at this point,

[SlimJimmy]

100. In the government sector, we have actually grown in the last few years.

I wouldn't call that losing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Yes, I know that fact

but you got yours...

Sorry... but that attitude bothers me to no end. I will fight to keep my cops and my firefighter's PENSIONS...

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. So you have the attitude of I got mine, frack you?

SIMPLETON my ass and you call yourself and organizer?

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Which means, tranaslation, you already

surrendered the field... MY POINT EXACTLY The best friend of management, corporate or government, ever. No, I will not bother 'xplaining this to you and how ironic it is... or how NON LABOR friendly that is.

YOU FIGHT for those things, not surrender the field. What is next? Ten hour days? Perhaps six day weeks? I know... CHILD LABOR and NO MINIMUM WAGE. Hell, let's go back to the Stewart Industrial code and have MAXIMUM wages.

Yup... that's the ticket.

As I said, I got mine...

[SlimJimmy]

99. No, which means we bargained for the right to exist as opposed to being pushed away completely. You

really need to get a clue. The government employees union has been making gigantic strides over the years. But we realize (like most industiries) that defined benefits are something that is *not* going to be sustaibale into the future.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. As I said, you gave up the field

So what is next? The lack of a right to organize?

And I have a clue... a pretty good one. And if you to not get the irony... well then I can't help you there. I suggested some books, others have pointed out how wrong you are... but hey... I guess them historians and activists are all wrong and YOU are correct.

Oh well.

[SlimJimmy]

110. What you don't know about our Federal Union could fill volumes. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. And what you do NOT KNOW OF BASIC UNION HISTORY

already fills volumes. I feel sorry for your members... they are all but served well.

Big lie comes to mind.. .a powerful propaganda technique.

[SlimJimmy]

127. We're doing our job. Maybe you could get off your ass and write a letter of support for us to

Congress. We are fighting the good fight, and will continue to do so. So, a hearty screw you to your condescension.

Moten said federal employees have already contributed to the debt reduction. They cannot get raises for two years as it stands now. She also said federal employees are worse off than private-sector employees regarding benefit packages, referencing a Social Security Administration study that found federal employees’ retirement plans lag behind some private-sector employees’ plans.

http://www.federaldaily.com/articles/2011/08/26/afge-letter-federal-employees-budget-cuts.aspx

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. that you can have

will write another letter to my democratic congress critter...

Hey at least she does not automatically put it in shredder.

In fact will be cc'ed to all members, expecting the usual suspects to shred it... that includes a few dems.

[BOG PERSON]

70. what-ever

we all have to make sacrifices

edit. in all seriousness. fuck police unions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. And in all seriousness with that attitude you end

shooting yourself on the foot...

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

105. Wow!

I guess if I saw one of them where I live, I'd have to stand right next to them and tell people not to sign or hand out leaflets showing the gains organized labor brought about in this country. The 1%'s have got us so splintered and divided people do crazy shit like think unions are responsible for the mess we're in.................

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. I drove one away

:-)

Not this particular one though,

[SusanaMontana41]

109. Good for you, nadin! We will not be silent! nt

[Drew Richards]

118. We used to have a great phrase we would post in threads on TP before they changed formats

Now none of the old people even go to TP except to browse.

"Please don't Feed The trolls"
"They get off on spewing misinformation with a kernel of truth"

Perhaps we should start doing that on some threads here where it is obvious there is a misinformation agenda?

But all in all good defense of true union history folks it is just sad we constantly have to do it.

Ford was a business man, he saw the value in fair compensated workers increased productivity just as an assembly line did...

NO he was not the first nor the biggest...he was just the most noted in the newspapers of the day and in history because he also was revolutionizing the country with the affordable automobile...this doesn't mean he started it, created it or was the first to make it happen...he was not...

sheesh talk about revisionist histories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Oh trust me, that thought occurred

but feeding them at times is necessary to expose them!

:hi:

[Drew Richards]

121. As I said in my update...Good job on defence wish it was not required...

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Oh so do I

I realize that there are many types of History.

Here is the clash between labor history... and business history.

To the Labor Historian the role of the unions becomes central... to the business historian the board room becomes central. Why it is also part of our series of elite history.. the other two are military and political, which is what most people are exposed to

Been in the process of writing lectures, once they are ready wil approach college again to see... if I can get a job doing that. Also writing a history of labor... but I am very aware of the top business historian of our age... Henry Steele Commager. I pointed out in the thread that good ol' Henry would have never been that balsy... but part of the reason was when he wrote his great book. People were still aware of that pesky labor history. They knew it either from grand parent who was in the union, or from them pesky history books. He wrote about the same time as others doing labor. These days... labor history is a weird little creature we mostly ignore... so doing this revision is that much more easier.

I came to realize about two years ago that we needed to recover this history of labor with a new popular history... Alas my intellectual history training is also getting in the way... so it will not be pure labor... but also ask a few questions, like where did our penchant for cheap labor come from? Or quite frankly why would people sign up as indentured servants? So doing a tad of archeology of knowledge while at it.

[joeglow3]

122. Sadly, the greed of many fire unions may undo them.

While I fully support unions (my father spent 30+ years in the carpenter's union), like everything, they can sometimes go to far. A family friend of ours retired from the Omaha fire department at age 47 with a guaranteed lifetime pension of $87,000. He now works in the exact same job in a city immediately to the South of Omaha for $80,000 a year. Clearly, he is fully capable of performing the exact same job, but gets to retire anyway in his 40's. This has left a very bad taste in many people's mouths and has led to a huge uprising against the fire union.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/703239872

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Some abuse has happened, but that is the exception, not the rule

most firefighters here retire at 55... and trust me, having done the job for ten years, ten extra years would lead to way too many injuries et al, No fire department has enough desk jobs. And a 65 year old pulling hose could lead to people, both civilian and fire service personnel dying.

But this is not abut ONE department... this is about a MOVEMENT to roll back all kinds of labor rights to the point where there is NO RIGHT to strike, or to organize, or for a minimum wage. that is the larger picture.

[Ishoutandscream2]

128. Firefighters, police, teachers

need to be able to retire at 55. I have worked 26 years in education, 16 as a counselor and 10 as a teacher. I'll be 50 in two weeks, and at this point I couldn't see myself teaching in a middle school classroom again. It is not only mentally demanding, but physically demanding as well.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. In reality retirement should go down to 55 across the board

like some European nations, Instead we are thinking of raising it to 67... sheer insanity.

Yes we could... but priorities would have to radically change in this country.

[Ishoutandscream2]

132. Touche', of course, didn't mean to demean other professions

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Oh not at all.

Reading on labor history starting with the 14th century... yes that far back... I am starting to get a really large picture as it were.

There has been progress, don't get me wrong. and all of it earned in blood. But over the last thirty years not only did it come to a halt, but it is starting to go backwards. Part of it... we seem incapable of thinking big and beyond our own time. Slavery took six generations, the franchise for women took three, the ten hour day took four... the eight hour day took three.. and so on. We seem incapable of conceiving of a future with benefits that we will not see.

[blkmusclmachine]

125. So, Target is allowing anti-Union people to solicit, but chasing off Gay Rights people?

That stinks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. depends on the target

the one near my home is an equal opportunity chaser.

In reality due to California Supreme Court rulings, Ralphs has it right... they have no right to prevent EITHER from being there.

[lonestarnot]

140. What kick their asses and tear up their shit?

Snort :rofl: :evilgrin: :hi:

[Generic Brad]

153. Where are the police and firemen in your area?

Shouldn't they be hosing them off or tasering them or something? Why are they not challenging them in some way?

[nadinbrzezinski]

155. The reason DeMaio is trying the direct democracy way

is he cannot get this any other way.

[TX Thinker]

161. Funny...

I thought Target didn't allow people to solicit signatures outside their stores. Guess it all depends on the agenda being advanced...

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. Welcome to DU, and my local one does not

this is about 25 miles from my local one. I suspect you are correct though.

[KamaAina]

171. Please don't tell me they were out there on Labor Day!

:wtf: