Why Gibson? Why Armed Swat Teams? Why shut down this small, but vital company?

[2banon]

Calling on fellow Musician's to explain to me why the actions of DOJ's Federal Raid on Gibson.

Apparently they raided Gibson the first time in 2009, armed to the teeth with swat teams (then, as well as last week) storming an iconic guitar factory as if it were a drug or illegals weapons factory. The Feds had confiscated instruments and materials, valued at a half million dollars, not to mention jobs that are now impacted, yet have not pressed any charges and will not respond to inquiries.

I totally get the environmental issues and concerns regarding rosewood and ebony harvested from rainforests of Madagasgar and other regions of the world. But this is beyond the pale of Gestapo like actions taken against Gibson, without a shred of due process therefore impossible to flesh out exactly what laws have been violated.

Gibson Guitar Corp. Responds to Federal Raid

This is the ultimate description of insane policies, imo.

WTF???


edited spelling and grammatical errors

[Skink]

1. they probably got behind on their vig payments.

[2banon]

2. ok, I give up.. what does "vig" stand for? n/t

[Buns_of_Fire]

8. "Vig" -- AKA "Vigorish"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigorish

[2banon]

12. thanks for the inteeresting link

[The Magistrate]

9. Short For 'Vigorish', Sir: An Old Mobster's Slang For Interest Payments On A Loan

The sort where you pay fifteen percent a week, and your knees stand as collateral.

[2banon]

17. I don't get it, in this context though.. I guess I'm being dense..

why would it be in the Federal gov't's interest to do this with Gibson? where's the financial advantage?

[The Magistrate]

23. My Guess, Sir, Is A Variant On 'He Must Not Have Kept Up His Payments'

The idea being only regular payments keep people from being raided by S.W.A.T. teams,which strikes me as rather far-fetched. This kind of force in a raid apparently aimed at illegal possession of rare woods, though, strikes me as bloody-minded foolishnes, too.

[2banon]

26. Agreed..

It's astonishing to me that this action would have been approved by Holder. I wonder if he's apprised of it, has felt any reaction from the commoners out here, etc etc.. if he gives a hoot.. I'm just baffled. seriously. and angry. Gibson Mandolin is my thing, and so are the guitars for that matter. But luthiers for years have been building with contraband woods from Brazil, not because of environmental reasons but for political. But never have I ever known to be dealing with this level fascist reaction/response.

This is not the change, I was looking forward to.

[alarimer]

95. What part of ENDANGERED SPECIES do you not understand?

If they broke the law, they should be punished. Preferably fined and out of business.

So fucking what if they make only musical instruments. If what they did is illegal (and at this point it is an investigation, not a trial), they should pay.

Just because it is a company you happen to like doesn't mean they should slide. What they are doing is environmentally irresponsible at the very least. Make the instruments out of sustainable wood and stop raping the forests of poor countries.

[Jamastiene]

112. +1000000

[Warpy]

29. You should see what they do to people with feathers

It's illegal to possess bald eagle feathers unless you're a member of an Amerindian tribe. Even if you pick them up on a forest floor and don't know what they are, possession breaks the law. If you do crafts with feathers and someone spots an eagle feather in something or other, you can expect a visit from a SWAT team in the wee hours.

I don't know why they do this sort of thing--boredom? People who build guitars and make feather hats and jewelry are not likely to meet service of a warrant with much force beyond a look of disbelief and a promise to explain in court.

In other words, this isn't the first example of gross overreaction and sadly, it won't be the last.

[rog]

32. Back story on this.

First off, I'm currently a professional guitarist, have been since 1966. I've owned MANY Gibsons, quite a few I wish I still had, but that's another story.

This is the wiki on Gibson ... should take you to the section on the two busts, and a brief mention of why Gibson is the "worst place in America" to work. It's worth it to go to glassdoor.com and look up Gibson. Anyhow, re: the bust ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Guitar_Corporation#Recent_criticism_and_controversy

They have incriminating internal e-mails, etc., and, by the way, they only confiscated six guitars and a few pallets of wood.

And here's the wiki on the illegal wood trade. Not a pretty picture, and if Gibson is fudging on the Lacey act, I hope they get the book thrown at them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging_in_Madagascar

This is very long, but I found it well worth my time to read it.

This is more serious than a couple of ebony bridges.

.rog.

[wtmusic]

38. Good info. Unlike the wood, the issue isn't cut-and-dried.

Sorry. :thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

43. Thank You! I'm So Sick of the "Why Are They Picking On Gibson" Crap

And then they want to know why people accuse musicians of being self-absorbed.

[Codeine]

50. Good stuff. I wonder why DU has taken up the cause of the right-wing douchebags

who want to make this something it most clearly is not.

[2banon]

53. Look, I'm a self identified leftist, I'm also a musician.

I'm not a guitarist per se, however I do play mandolin and fiddle. Naturally, I'm acquainted with many musicians but this business has been off my radar screen, and in fact my instruments were shelved since the stolen 2000 elections. Figured I wasn't paying enough attention to political machinations and so that's the nutshell story why I'm not up on this issue.

Now if Gibson is guilty of nefarious dealings, then they need to be held accountable. HOWEVER, the manner in which this was handled is beyond outrageous, and if Liberals don't get that and yet use how right wingers are reacting as if there's no merit to their anger in how this was handled, using their reaction as some sort of measuring stick to take an opposing view, well that doesn't make sense to me.

Where was Fish and Game's Swat Team when it came to BP Oil? I don't recall seeing or reading any reports of similar actions taken against them. I do believe there should have been an immediate response in confiscating equipment, materials, office records etc. But even in this scenario I wouldn't expect Armed Swat Teams would be necessary.

[rog]

62. VERY good article on NPR, with a lot more details, quotes from CF Martin

Edited to add link to WSJ follow-up article.

First of all, I don't understand why everyone is using the term "SWAT Team." SWAT refers to "Special Weapons And Tactics," a small, highly trained team that specializes in dealing with dangerous and very high-risk situations. There is a photo of the raid with this article. I just see a couple of pretty out of shape guys in shirt sleeves wandering around, some with cameras. Yeah, they have holstered sidearms, but so does every cop that comes to your door about a noise complaint.



Wall St. Journal follow-up article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903895904576542942027859286.html

Most interesting is the part where Gibson CEO is crying about the lowly wood sorter who is "threatened" so unreasonably with 5 years in the jug. Turns out a couple of 'graphs later that Mr. Nix, the simple wood sorter was the guy on the ground in Madagascar, allegedly to discuss buying responsibly harvested wood. Later on, he was the guy who sent internal emails at Gibson, talking about the possibility of buying illegal Madagascar wood "on the grey market."

Anyhow here's the NPR story:

Why Gibson Was Raided By The Justice Dept.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department

A couple of clips ...

1) ... a court motion filed in June asserts Gibson's Madagascar ebony was contraband. It quotes emails that seem to show Gibson taking steps to maintain a supply chain that's been connected to illegal timber harvests.


The Environmental Investigation Association's independent investigations have concluded that Gibson knowingly imported tainted wood.

"Gibson clearly understood the risks involved," says EIA. "Was on the ground in Madagascar getting a tour to understand whether they could possibly source illegally from that country. And made a decision in the end that they were going to source despite knowing that there was a ban on exports of ebony and rosewood."

2) There are extensive quotes from the CEO of C. F. Martin guitar co. Part of what he said, ... while some say the Lacey Act is burdensome, Martin supports it: "I think it's a wonderful thing. I think illegal logging is appalling. It should stop. And if this is what it takes unfortunately to stop unscrupulous operators, I'm all for it. It's tedious, but we're getting through it."

C. F. Martin stopped buying Brazilian rosewood in the '90s because of over harvesting. Then, when they looked at the situation in Madagascar, they decided to stop buying that wood, as well.

The case is still under investigation ... I am very interested to see what develops. Meanwhile, I wouldn't trust Juszkiewicz as far as I can throw him.

One more photo of the "SWAT Team" ... jeez.



.rog.

[2banon]

70. Very informative and clarified everything for me., ....

Certainly puts the matter in a completely different light as well as explaining what actually happened here. I sincerely appreciate your efforts and contributions in putting this matter in it's proper perspective as well as debunking the bs that was spun out by the Gibson CEO and doing it politely by the way.. (without questioning my political agenda or bona fides).

Now that I know what actually happened and what's going on with Gibson, I certainly will be looking at this maker and it's instruments with a different eye. Now I'm wondering if Martin and other makers may be doing the same thing.

I'm an accoustic player but and only use pic ups to plug in when performing which is rare these days.. I had a vintage 1905 Gibson A model mandolin, but now just have a knock off.. seeking to upgrade. I guess I'll need to find a local luthier and pay a higher premium..

Do you know if instruments built before the Lacy Act bill became law, is grandfathered ?

And what about Ebony on violins? that's the wood that's always used as far as I know..

[rog]

74. LOTS MORE UNBIASED INFO (sorry about the allcaps)

2banon ... I did a search on legal ebony sources and found this article that pretty much lays out the Gibson case, with many details on the Lacey Act and quotes from the government's Affidavit In Support Of Search Warrant. Another long article, but I guess that's the price of more or less accurate info.

http://news.mongabay.com/2011/0902-eia_statement_gibson.html

Regarding the WAY over the top reaction in the media and on this discussion board (i.e., Obama's coming for your 12 string!!!!!!!!!) ...

Like many new procedures, these measures may create confusion and even fear in the short term, as companies adapt their practices and mindset. However, media messages that promote this fear do businesses and people a disservice. There is no indication that the government has interest in professional or amateur musicians, whether or not their instruments contain Indian or Malagasy precious woods. The FWS has always stated its intent to investigate and shut down networks of illegal smuggling and trade, not individuals.

Evidently there are legal sources of rosewood and ebony. According to this article, it seems that Mr. Nix, the Gibson guy who spent two weeks in Madagascar, was setting up "grey market" sources as a short term solution for Gibson until "legitimate harvests" could begin. But apropos your concerns about current wood sources ...

Ebony and rosewood species ... are overharvested and threatened throughout most of their global range. However, it is possible to source them legally. No music maker wants his or her instruments to be produced in a manner that is bad for forests, wildlife or people, or that may well preclude future generations from enjoying the same joy and quality.

Lots more good info in the article above ... well worth your time.

.rog.

[2banon]

96. Excellent and thanks for your time and efforts... n/t

[Hassin Bin Sober]

101. Thos guys are out of shape?

:)

[Jamastiene]

102. +1

[Divine Discontent]

121. "pretty out of shape guys" - what? Do you only speak to bodybuilders? ha

The first photo has two very healthy looking men in it, the 2nd photo has an older gentleman with bubble wrap who appears in decent shape for his age, and then a stout but not morbidly obese looking man with a camera.

[rog]

123. The point is, "no SWAT team."

Jeez ... sorry if I offended any average people.

Here's what a SWAT team looks like.



.rog. (67-year old, average build guy)

[bmbmd]

132. That guy in the middle

looks out of shape.

[JoeyT]

81. The right-wing douchebags are all in favor

of using armed SWAT teams at every opportunity. Did they expect Gibson employees to have a standoff with agents?

[2banon]

55. Very interesting, informative links.. Thanks for this..

Illegal logging in Madagascar is obvioulsy a critical matter. I have a better understanding now and appreciate these informative links, but something tells me there's still more to the story.. I don't understand the heavy handedness of this raid, when other bigger corporations have gotten away with environmental devastations equal to or exceeding this business, and has not be dealt with by the DoJ on any level, much less with raids by armed swat teams.

[Warpy]

86. Thanks for "glasdoor.com"

My last workplace has been reviewed and while I think the reviews were a little overly kind (and one obviously having been written by one of the suits), they did have their moments of honesty.

The best thing I can think of about that place is that I don't have to go back.

[SwampG8r]

58. gibsons webpage

tells a tale quite different than the one spun by the doj
they claim full legal certification on the woods impounded
they vaguely make claims of political involvement over their owners open support of conservative causes
and their non union status

[Dawson Leery]

3. SWAT teams and the DEA have NEVER done anything good for society.

[wtmusic]

4. There has to be a better way.

Gibson provides a market for an increasingly-scarce resource, and exporters are more than happy to feed the beast with illegally-cut wood.

I don't know what the answer is, but it will definitely make guitars cost more. I should buy my long-coveted Les Paul now.

[2banon]

21. If you buy a Les Paul now, it looks like you can be criminally charged with a Felon

the way this looks. And apparently, older Les Pauls, Gibson mandolins and guitars will be "illegal" to buy, sell, collect, own.

Insane.

[csziggy]

75. Chances are that those instruments will be treated like ivory art ojects

That pre-date the ivory bans. There are still some difficulties in selling them, but as long as they are handled correctly, they are not illegal to sell, purchase or own. Items made after the ivory bans are a problem, though.

[ixion]

5. probably because China wants to sell crappy guitars

so the US will eliminate the competition for them.

[Broderick]

6. touche n/t

[Rex]

7. Yep, our paymasters called in a favor and their lackeys responded.

China is already shipping Glibsone guitars and instruments to us as we type!

[2banon]

18. that's it. now i get it.

F**K.

[yardwork]

20. And this is a handy way to make environmentalists look bad.

It's a twofer. The administration gets to shut down a tiny competitor to the Chinese, and simultaneously demonstrate how "bad" environmental policies are.

[2banon]

24. BINGO!

Exactly my thoughts wrt Environmental policies as extreme. The other thing which i picked up in the interivew (linked in op) is that the Lacy Law (sp?) was a bill put forward by a "congress" person from Oregon promoted by big lumber, which needs to be researched and fact checked. but if anyone has ready info on this, it might possibly help clarify what is going on here.

[wtmusic]

37. Three-fer: big government gets in the way of American industry. nt

[yardwork]

41. No regulation!!!!

You're right. A threefer.

[Codeine]

52. Gibson sells a fuckload of Chinese (and other Asian-made) guitars already.

They just call them Epiphones. Many of them are pretty decent instruments for the price.

[TBF]

98. Here's the best answer in the thread. nt

[Uncle Joe]

10. The method you describe is a symptom of a government increasingly disconnected from its' people.

The "swat team" approach is a natural outgrowth from our counter productive, dysfunctional and insane "War on Drugs" policy.

I hate to wear out this expression, but all things begin to look like nails when all you have are hammers, this applies to the mentality of the draconian, invasive police state in general.

Thanks for the thread, 2banon.

[2banon]

11. Yes the Hammer and Nails perspective certainly is appropriate..

and the comparison to the on going and corrupt War on Drugs was brought to mind immediately.

[treestar]

13. Just curious, when does a company get large enough to be one of

those evil corporations?

We need full information also on how they treat their workers, too.

Even a for profit entity is lionized so long as you can claim the Administration to be wrong! Now this corporation is a victim?

[2banon]

19. Sorry, but This topic isn't about Obama. n/t

[treestar]

40. But it is about a large corporation being victimized by the Administration

So my question remains.

[RetroLounge]

67. Every topic is about Obama!

Haven't you figured that out yet?

The Swarm will descend upon every thread and make it about Obama.

It's what they are paid to do.

RL

[Scurrilous]

68. Yep.

Full blown ODS.

[pretzel4gore]

14. Natsecstapo, not 'ge' stapo, please

hushstory (once known as 'history') has moved way past the 'German State Police' or 'Gestapo' (as some faceless/nameless bureaucrat in the 1933-45 nazi government shortened it to)... the National Security State police, or Natsecstapo, brings the terminology up-to-date. Since there's only one affective 'national security state' left on earth, and it controls its pigmedia, we ought to honour its success like that nameless/faceless German official did! :)

[2banon]

54. *like*

:thumbsup:

[ChoppinBroccoli]

15. Let Me Know When The Looting Begins

Because I would kick an old lady down a flight of stairs for a brand new Les Paul. I'm strictly anti-looting, but we're talking about the coolest instrument ever created here, people.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HappyMe]

22. wtf?

Wow. I assume all the crack labs have been dealt with....oh, wait..


This will certainly encourage people to start up a new business :sarcasm:

[HysteryDiagnosis]

25. Looks like they could use a guitar hero right about now... n/t

[2banon]

27. It will be interesting to see the myriads come forward.. if at all..

I know one thing. The workers of Gibson will likely be out of jobs quite soon in this environment that's a politically bstupid move. Especially in the State of Tennesee.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

31. Makes me wonder if someone somewhere with the technology we have today cannot

create a synthetic compound/material that could outdo the wood they are accused of pilfering.

[GoCubsGo]

35. That would take money.

Money that would cut into their precious profits. Just like the money they could have spent to hire a couple of lawyers to deal with Indian laws and regulations, which could have prevented this altogether.

[Fumesucker]

39. Probably so, but you won't get guitar buyers to pay money for it..

Guitarists are for the most part traditionalists and traditionalists want an instrument with at least some wood in it because guitars have traditionally been made of mostly wood.

[mulsh]

28. Maybe Henry pissed off the wrong dudes this time.

I suspect some current and former employees are ratting him out.


Among other things it looks like the feds are fishing around for Gibson's suppliers and import connections. Hence sitting on an indictment and seized property for so long.

Plus Gibson has been making sub-par instruments for the past few years. If you want to purchase a decent guitar or mandolin you really have to search hard or go to one of smaller stores who are still willing to deal with Gibson and their abusive policies and unwillingness to back up their product or dealers.

I own four Gibson guitars, a 1960's 125, 1970's 150dc, a norlin era Les Paul Recording, and a 2009 Les Paul Traditional.

BTW why is the out rage over this raid so much stronger in right wing circles?

[rog]

36. I'm a Gibson player, too ...

My main guitar is an L-5.

But here's an excerpt from an article I posted above, re: the raid:

The initial complaint alleges that, "Gibson sourced its unfinished ebony wood in the form of blanks (for use in the manufacture of fingerboards for Gibson guitars) from Nagel (in Germany), which obtained it exclusively from Roger Thunam (a supplier in Madagascar). Madagascar prohibits the harvest of ebony wood as well as the exportation of unfinished ebony wood." The filing also made mention of internal emails from 2008 and 2009 that discussed ebony species from Madagascar and plans to harvest it.

They're accused of smuggling wood in from Madagascar through a fence in Germany, and they've discussed their plans via email. If they prove a case against Gibson I hope some people go to jail.

And I don't really understand some of the posters who seem to be apologists for Gibson's corporate policies.

.rog.

[Jamastiene]

103. +1

If they broke the law, they should be dealt with. There are plenty of other legal and readily available, sustainably harvested woods that are beautiful that can be used for fingerboards. FFS.

The outrage here falls into the OFFS category to me. Oh, for fuck's sake...Anyone who knows anything about guitars knows that guitars manufactured in the last 15 years or so are shit anyhow. The best guitars are the old ones...and they would be legal to purchase.

[Mz Pip]

116. Why?

The Right is considering this some kind of political payback for the shop being non-union and the company's donations to conservative groups. Martin guitar didn't get hit and in the thinking of the conspiracy theorists it's because they are union and donate to Democrats.
I won't post any of the content but here's a conservative/ right wing article about the whole thing.

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/08/30/is-it-really-that-simple/

[madrchsod]

30. i would`t blame them if they picked up and moved out of this country

i know cuba is looking for business to move there.....

[Brickbat]

33. Oh, they're good at that.

That used to be a Michigan company. Now it's Tennessee. Used to be unionized, now it's not.

[Codeine]

51. Wow. Now we're cheerleading for business to flee the US to avoid environmental laws?

This place is losing it.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. I know. It's not like they were a cancer granny smoking a joint to ease chemo nausea, or something.

I mean, isn't that what SWAT teams are FOR?

[MyrnaLoy]

42. no big deal

it's just wood:



We didn't need passenger pigeons either:



And those dumb-ass bison were just in the way of progress:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. The company says their wood purchases are certified and liensed

That means the wood harvested is limited in the amount cut and that amount is replaced. It is possible to be environmentally conscious and still enjoy what the world has to offer.

If the certification is even close to true than the use of SWAT becomes mystifying if not outright horrifying. It seems checking their certifications would be the first step before sending in paramilitary fores.

[bluestate10]

78. Have you even considered that the certifications are false?

Of course you would not because doing that could ruin your narrative.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

92. Sorry, I hadn't considered "innocent until proven guilty" was out of vogue.

How about "benefit of the doubt"? Why didn't the government simply ask to verify the validity of the certifications if that was the real concern?

I still do not see anything in this story, even presuming your own narrative, that requires paramilitary intervention. What weapons or violent resistance was to be expected at a place that manufactures musical instruments? Maybe somebody serving the warrant is taking the term "axe" too literally, I don't know.

I don't know what "narrative" I'm supposed to be advancing. Unless you live in a 100% recycled material dwelling then even you have to admit that we can harvest what the earth provides and still be responsible for its care and beauty.

I don't know why that idea threatens anyone.

[boppers]

87. Here's the crux of the matter:

They "legally" got wood that was supposedly "veneer". Veneer, if you're not in woodworking, is supposed to be thin. According to Indian export law, less than 7mm thick... but the wood they got was thicker than that. They are accused of trying to evade laws by claiming one cut of wood was another cut of wood.

The rest is just bullshit and bluster by right wing shills (check out Gibson's corporate donations, they're far right), like, for example, claiming "SWAT" was sent in. (See the pics in this thread for the scary middle aged dudes wearing boots and using cameras.)

[Jamastiene]

104. +1000000

[Mendocino]

120. Passenger pigeons

were described by noted ecologist Aldo Leopold as the "living wind."

[letmedrinkuin]

44. CF Martin Donates to the DNC, Gibson does not.

Do a search yourself for Obama and guitars and you will see that Gibson donates to the GOP.

Agree with the GOP or not, this type of gov't actions can be used against ANYONE and fly in the face of what this nation stands for.

[Vidar]

46. Too many Brownshirts standing around with nothing better to do?

[spanone]

47. perhaps they are breaking the law.

[2banon]

57. Banksters, Big Oil, Pharma, PG&E, AT&T, on and on,

I never read or hear about raids or arrests on these companyies and others.. they break laws every second of every day of the year, year in and year out.

[bluestate10]

80. Mentioning ten boogieman does not release one boogieman from culpability. nt

[bluestate10]

79. Now, you have to go and ruin the narrative. nt

[MineralMan]

48. I believe it was because they were using protected exotic woods

in their guitars. There are laws against that. Why? Because using those woods is leading to the destruction of tropical forests where they grow.

There are good substitutes for all of these woods, and old stocks that are legal to use. Very expensive the old stocks are, but legal.

Sometimes companies do illegal things. When they do and they are caught, stuff happens to them.

[bluestate10]

82. Given that one posted pointed out Gibson is a GOP contributor

and a second seem to have pointed out the company actively went non-union to an anti-union state from a union one, why would you assume that Gibson could possibly break laws? Don't be a partypooper breaking up the innocent, righteous victim of the overbearing FEDs narrative. You sound so anti Rick Perry.

[Codeine]

49. DU loves the environment,

except when it doesn't.

[2banon]

56. oh please.. get real.

[girl gone mad]

59. You believe that spin?

Coming from the same administration which told environmental groups to fuck off over air pollution controls, and is about to approve the XL pipeline?

I don't buy it for a nanosecond.

[boppers]

90. "fuck off over air pollution controls,"???

I'll bet you 14 parts in a billion that you're heard more spin than facts on the topic.

Why 14 parts in a *billion*?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/obama-ozone-standard-epa-environmental-groups_n_947136.html

[Tom Ripley]

60. That's not the iconic guitar factory in Nashville

The iconic guitar factory is in Kalamazoo.

[2banon]

61. You're exactly right, I misspoke..

Nashville may be, but not Gibson's re-located factory there.

[Tom Ripley]

133. It's okay!

:)

[Supply Side Jesus]

63. shocking photo of the "heavily armed swat" members in raid

HOLY FUCK! THATS A LOT OF BUBBLE WRAP!

[Jamastiene]

106. zOMG, RUN!!!! THE BUBBLE WRAP!!! IT HURTS SO MUCH!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. The outrage over this is preposterous. That's hardly a "SWAT team."

[mmonk]

64. Maybe they prefer Fender.

[Zambero]

125. Strats & Teles: Cheaper and (IMHO) better sounding

Also, Fender's use of more common swamp ash, maple, and alder woods for guitar manufacture will likely preclude a similar raid. Twang!

[2banon]

127. strats and telecasters are electric.. what about acoustic, and what about mando's?

[Supply Side Jesus]

65. this post shows just how stupid some DUers are

just because the word "raid" is used does not mean a swat team is used or in fact any tactical entry was made.

The hyperbolic knee jerk reactions are fucking pathetic around here and only serves to marginalize this site.

[Jamastiene]

108. If Gibson really is using a grey market to get endangered species wood,

their asses do deserve to be checked out and prosecuted if any evidence is found against them. I hardly see any reason for the knee jerk reactions here either.

Guess what, Gibson? There are other woods that can be used...woods that are not endangered. What's more? They sound great and look great too.

I never knew there were so many anti-evironmentalists on this site.

[2banon]

128. rude, nasty, snarky.. very UN informative.. be off with you...

[Supply Side Jesus]

129. funny, thats my opinion of the OP

funny that

[2banon]

130. explain

reading over my OP, I don't see that I've been rude, nasty or snarky to anyone per se, except arguably a Federal Agent might find it to be the case. :shrug:

[Spider Jerusalem]

66. Why Gibson? Because they were BREAKING THE LAW, apparently.

Getting in shipments of ebony and rosewood, which are endangered species of trees, by the way. Not an insane policy at all; an irresponsible action on the part of the company, they should have known better, and the law is being enforced. Protection of endangered species and biodiversity is more important than a guitar; what would you be saying if it had been ivory and rhinoceros horn?

[Swede]

69. AS a poster above said "DU loves the enviroment,until it doesn't"

:shrug:

[killbotfactory]

71. Not true! They just hate the Obama administration more than they love the environment. nt

[bluestate10]

83. Or the Koch brothers raping the land. nt

[Jamastiene]

109. +1000000

AND...

There are other woods that are NOT endangered species that can be used.

[chillspike]

72. A guitar can be made of anything a rosewood or ebony tree cannot

I don't think it would be fair if a species of tree would have to go extinct so Gibson can have their precious sound. No musical instrument can ever best the sounds of the Wind anyway.

[The Midway Rebel]

73. Buy used dammit!

There are a glut of guitars on the market. Many more guitars than people who can actually play them. Many more. Guitar players can only play one guitar at a time (unles you are Rick Nielson). There are many used guitars in near pristine condition. Every new guitar that is built takes valubale natural resources. Every nice used guitar I have bought has APPRECIATED in value even after I have played the shit out of it. Much of the new stuff is crap. Personally, I do not understand why any Democrat guitar player would buy a NEW guitar. Especially a new Gibson. Those pricks are non-union, support the GOP and now we find out they illegally import rare tone woods. Fuck them. Buy a used Guild or Gretsch.

[2banon]

97. Good Idea! *like* n/t

[Jamastiene]

114. Abso-fucking-lutely.

I wish I could recommend this post.

[MilesColtrane]

119. Apparently there's even a market for new guitars that look used.

So...instead of buying used, you can buy new and just pretend that you've been practicing and gigging for twenty years.

:crazy:

http://www.fenderrelic.net/fender-relic/fender-relic-%C2%A0a-modern-or-vintage-guitar-masterpiece

[DFW]

76. Typical "efficient" allocation of government resources

Since the 1940s, they have spent something like $100 million chasing down 25 $20 gold coins dated 1933,
because a local Philadelphia jewelry merchant got a friendly mint employee to switch them for earlier
dated coins just before the gold confiscation order was issued by FDR. The government didn't lose a gram
of gold, but they have been chasing these coins down as if they were immortal presidential assassins since
the Second World War.

[Codeine]

84. Endangered trees are a bit different

than gold coins.

[DFW]

85. Of course, but the principle is the same

Is it an intelligent use of government resources?

And it is not for a fortune in gold coins, it is 70 years to pursue 25 gold coins weighing 30.09 grams each.

The answer in both cases is no.

[bluestate10]

88. Are you serious?

Honestly. The issue with the gold coins was proper ownership and whether the coins were STOLEN from a mint that collected them to remove them from circulation after a law was passed to remove pure gold coins from circulation. You gold coin example has NOTHING to do with an environmentally insensitive, anti union company getting their asses busted for potentially using wood that is endangered in their products.

[DFW]

91. The coins were not "stolen" from the mint

The mint didn't lose a cent. It was common practice for the collector's window at the mint in the 1930s to exchange newly
minted coins for older ones every year to give collectors a few weeks' head start on their collections. The "stolen"
line is taken from paid government hack David Tripp, who had no other income when he was fired by Sotheby's. There was
no shortfall when the audit was done in 1933. That's why it took the government ten years to even get started on pursuing
them. Seventy years of pursuing 25 ounces of gold that the government never even lost is ridiculous. They could have let
the Langbords sell their coins (that they didn't even know they had until 2004) and reaped 28% of $20 million in taxes.
Instead, they spent thirty times that since 2004 and reaped 10 ounces (all the Langbords had) of gold. Now, there's a
great way to budget our time and tax money.

My gold coin example has everything to do with government allocation of resources to go after perceived offenses.
If there is violation of import laws of protected wood, the source of the violation is in the country of origin
and at our border. Shutting down a guitar factory and idling its workers is overkill when a simple investigation
as to the origin of their wood will do. If they stonewall, that is another matter. But idling one guitar factory
will not stop the felling of trees in Madagascar. Idling the tree bandits in Madagascar and embargoing their wood,
on the other hand, will.

[2banon]

134. Excellent point! n/t

[bluestate10]

77. What would you say to the Koch brothers ravaging old growth forests for lumber?

I am sure that I envision what you would say. Rosewood and Ebony trees are unique species, there are ONLY so many of them in the world. Why don't you insist that Gibson establish Rosewood and Ebony tree farms to grow wood for their instruments? You would certainly insist that companies that make wood for homes or for paper grow it and not rape nature.

[onethatcares]

89. in different forums or maybe it was here, I read

that there are sustainable ebony and rosewood tree plantations where fretboard woods are supposed to come from, what the feds were looking for were lumber pieces sold to Gibson that had been certified as being from there, but were in actuallity piratized from non plantation areas. The feds were and still are processing the DNA of the lumber in order to back check.

That makes a lot more sense than the rest of the bullshit I've read on this thread. sorry, I don't have a link

BTW, Godin out of Canada makes a nice sounding bunch of guitars too/

[girl gone mad]

94. Is it not true that the same wood is legal...

when finished by Indian workers?

[Lizzie Poppet]

107. Correct.

The law in question is an Indian one, and it does indeed permit export of the same woods if certain types of finish work are performed domestically. It's more of a trade protection law than it is an environmental one, really.

[alarimer]

93. They are allegedly using illegal wood.

From ENDANGERED species. If the owners/operators knew about it, they should at the very least be shut down and spend time in jail.

So denuding a poor country of its hardwoods is worth it so selfish Americans can play guitar? Make your guitars from some other, sustainable wood.

[TBF]

99. Here's an interesting blog on Gibson and their main competitor - who happens to be a large

democratic donor. I did a search on Google to see who Gibon's competitors were - because I know that they would be the most likely to turn Gibson in. Usually if you follow the money you can find the answer - and in this case there may be political considerations as well.

Interesting read ...

"One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars."

Edit because I forgot the link (sorry): http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/08/ceo-of-gibson-guitars-main-competitor.html

[rog]

100. Why are you linking to a rabidly right-wing web site?

One of this site's top referrers is Michelle Malkin, for crying out loud. All you see all over the site is anti-Obama, anti-labor, anti-Democrat.

I would really like an answer to this question. I'll ask it again; why are you linking to a rabidly right-wing web site?

In answer to your question about Martin Guitars, Gibson is accused of breaking the law, Martin is not. Simple as that. Gibson is accused of two things - falsifying paper work to do an end-run around an Indian law that is public knowledge, and in 2009, buying illegal wood from Madagascar on the "grey market."

I am getting really tired of right-wing talking points presented as fact in this thread.

I'll look forward to your response.

.rog.

[TBF]

110. As I said in my initial post, I simply did a google search for Gibson and competitor -

I'll see if I can find a different source that you'll approve of.

[TBF]

113. Here are other blogs talking about the same subject -

http://www.bluecollarphilosophy.com/2011/08/gibson-guitar-raid-politically-motivated-gibson-ceo-a-republican-donor-competitor-is-a-democrat.html
http://hillbuzz.org/2011/08/29/theres-much-more-to-that-gibson-guitars-story-largest-competitor-is-a-big-dem-donor-uses-same-wood-but-has-never-been-raided/

[rog]

117. I repeat, why are you linking to rabidly right-wing sites?

Right at the top of the page, under "Why I Am Not A Democrat" ...

My reasons for not being a Democrat are: (1) The dominance of Liberalism in the Party (2) Ethical issues like abortion, gay rights, euthanasia, stem cell research, cloning (3) Liberal intolerance for the freedom of thought, get ready for re-education camps (4) Excessive taxation (5) Liberal activist judges and (6) Foreign policy views that undermine American security (7) Reasons (1-5) pose a threat to Christians in this country and that is why if you are a Christian you should not be a Democrat either.

Join us on facebook as well.

* Happy Nazis At Auschwitz Are Like Abortionists Doing Sacred Work
* President Obama Is A Modern Day King Manasseh
* Liberalism Threatens Your Children By Tolerating Pedophilia

I'm going to suggest that if you are REALLY interested in the substance of this Gibson situation that you dig a little deeper. If you search my posts in this thread, you may find more about what's going on.

Very truly yours,

.rog.

By the way, this is the last of your links I'm going to follow. I've heard this talking point before ... several times in this thread alone.

[rog]

118. You edited to post a SECOND right-wing site?

Edited to post the hillbuzz founder's CV.

Today's front page article from "hillbuzz" ...

A fun way to spend Labor Day: a Sarah Palin’s Alaska Marathon at your house

Posted on September 5, 2011 by Kevin DuJan // Action Items, Hillbuzz, Purple Team - Palin, Sarah Palin, TV - Sarah Palin's Alaska

Are you looking for something fun to do with family and friends who are home today with Labor Day off? Kevin DuJan at HillBuzz.org suggests taking a vicarious adventure through America’s last frontier with the Palin family via a Sarah Palin’s Alaska Marathon at your house.

Really ... are you just blindly Google-ing this one story and not noticing or ignoring the politics behind this talking point, or do these sites reflect your political bias?

jeez.

.rog.

By the way, here's the lowdown on "hillbuzz's" founder, the guy you linked to.

Kevin DuJan, Editor & Publisher, HillBuzz.org

A native of an area of Cleveland Ohio he affectionately refers to as “Thunderdome”, Kevin DuJan is a former centrist Democrat-turned-Independent-turned Out and Proud Conservative Republican who is an increasingly popular political analyst, humorist, and radio personality.

Kevin’s Catholic upbringing and education–surrounded by take-no-prisoners “Ninja Nuns”–continues to inspire him in the fight against Alinsky radicals bent on destroying America.

He’s a conservative, Christian gay man residing in the rainbow-tinted neighborhood of Chicago known as “Boystown,” where he writes, researches, and edits from this Buzzquarters command center.

Kevin’s work has been featured by Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Dennis Miller, Andrew Breitbart, Michelle Malkin, and other conservative powerhouses on their shows.

Kevin is a frequent guest on conservative radio and TV programs and played a featured role in Gigi Gaston’s voter fraud documentary, “We Will Not Be Silenced 2008″, which detailed the thuggery, intimidation, and undemocratic methods the Obama campaign used to game the Democrat primaries and caucuses. He is also featured in the 2011 documentary “Rebelevolution”, chronicling Americans who stand up forcefully to the entrenched established on both sides of the aisle. His writing has appeared in prominent print and online publications at home and in Europe and Asia.

Kevin’s life mission is to bring the Democrat party’s chickens home to roost. Once a lifelong Democrat loyalist, he broke with the party permanently on May 31st, 2008, the day the Democrat Rules & Bylaws Committee (headed by Donna Brazile and Howard Dean) stole delegates from Hillary Clinton and awarded them to Obama, cementing the party’s lurch to the far left. As a Clinton campaign supporter, Kevin was subjected to vile attacks for not “falling into line” and going along quietly with the Democrat party’s rebranding. He is one of millions of former Democrats who discovered the depth of their conservative leanings and ultimately migrated to the Republican party because of 2008′s seismic shift in the Democrats’ party leanings.

HillBuzz.org began as a small Hillary Clinton presidential campaign volunteer site, but emerged through the years as a place for political analysis, action, and adventure as Kevin saw a real need for more than just the endless commentary and dithering found on conservative sites.

Kevin’s essays blend humor, history, and activism in attempts to “get people’s butts off the couch and put down the Pepsi” and involve them in the political process, in efforts to thwart both the “The Tolerant Left” and the Cocktail Party GOP establishment (a term Kevin coined here on HillBuzz in 2010, which has been used by both Rush Limbaugh and Governor Sarah Palin subsequently).

For his efforts, Kevin has been called “the gay male Ann Coulter” (which he plans on having stitched onto a pillow at some point) and is the consistent target of a long-running campaign of personal destruction engineered by both “The Tolerant Left” and the Cocktail Party GOP establishment.

He must be doing something right to be a gay guy from Cleveland, living now in Boystown, whose impact on American politics warrants such Alinsky reprisals from “The Tolerant Left”.

[TBF]

122. Obviously if they are doing what they are accused of I hope they are raided -

but I hope their competitors are as well. Doing litigation in the 90's I learned that companies will often turn each other into the FTC. Granted, it is often the smaller competitors that do so (and there is usually something to their stories).

I did go up-thread and read your back-story which is interesting. Entirely new area for me but now I'm about to learn more about guitars and logging.

[rog]

124. Peace.

TBF said, "Entirely new area for me but now I'm about to learn more about guitars and logging."

Even though I'm a guitar player, this was new to me, too. I found the back-story to be fascinating, and well worth several long reads. International organized crime, corporate greed and corrupt government is a toxic mix.

By the way, here's a direct link (via the New York Times) to the government's "Affidavit In Support of a Search Warrant."

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

This is for the current complaint against Gibson, not the 2009 incident.

.rog.

[Curmudgeoness]

105. After listening to a RW nut job, I have made my mind up how I feel

about this. (Well, that and reading all the information presented here.)

The RW are up in arms, rabidly defending Gibson. That tells me all I need to know.

[Jamastiene]

111. If it turns out that they are smuggling wood from endangered species trees,

the world's smallest environmentally friendly :nopity: plays on for them.

I could care less if they get raided, prosecuted, and convicted, if they are breaking the laws set up to save the endangered species trees. Those trees won't be around forever.

Besides, any guitarist knows that other woods can be used for fingerboards and that those woods can sound and look great too. It's not necessary to be anti-environment to be pro guitar.

Besides, any guitarist who knows anything about guitars knows that most guitars made in the last 15 years or so are absolute shit anyhow. The older guitars are the good ones.

[L0oniX]

115. US gov killing off more jobs ....except theirs.

[Supply Side Jesus]

126. ya!

lets open all our national forests for unlimited logging! unlimited mining! and unlimited poaching!

fuck the future, it's all about the NOW!

[L0oniX]

131. Yea ...it's ok as long as it comes from another country. What are you going to build your house with

...mud?

[2banon]

135. Well, there's Hay Bales and Wheat Grass or something..

:hi: