Modern cars have so many computer-controlled components, what are we going to do in 10 years?

[DainBramaged]

Parts are going to be scarce because of 1) attrition of suppliers 2) natural disasters 3) complication and cost 4) the 'make them buy a new car' philosophy of the auto makers. We see it in parts availability in 90's cars that are still on the road, Corvettes and Camaros as an example simply because they are treated better by their owners. You CAN'T get anti-lock brake components any more from the factory, and the aftermarket won't touch parts like that (which can cause greater liability than brake shoes and disc pads). Air-bag sensors, factory computers, special sensors are almost non-existent except for 'refurbished (cleaned) items from scrap yard sources. I am sure it is just as bad with Ford and Chrysler and Volkswagen and Audi and Mercedes Benz and BMW and Toyota and Honda.


Body control modules that talk to engine control modules that talk to transmission control modules that talk to sensors and relays that are made by a multitude of companies.

I know, some will crow well my XXX has been trouble free for xxx thousand miles. Not the same ballpark folks. Wait till you have to have your seven-speed automatic rebuilt in 5 or 6 years after the warranty expires.


It ain't going to be pretty.


Just a thought.

[Kurmudgeon]

1. I've kept back a couple of old cars just in case, points and drum brakes beats walking!

[RKP5637]

2. Everything breaks after awhile. And the damn planned obsolesce drives me

up a wall. Frankly, it's all going to cave in on itself, the unknown (at least to me) is the time frame. There are too many permutations and combinations today and the net entropy is ever increasing. Too much, and too many variables. Complex systems break IMO.

Consumers are suckers!

[SheilaT]

19. Planned obsolescence?

You clearly don't remember the cars of the 50's and 60's, which really WERE built to not last very long. Back then, those that could afford to do so got a new car every two years, because after that length of time, and maybe 20,000 miles -- probably a lot less because people didn't drive as much or as far back then -- things were beginning to seriously wear out, and so if you could, you traded in for a new one.

Tires didn't last very long, either. I can't begin to count the times we'd have a tire go flat and we'd be on the side of the road changing it.

Nowadays even cars that are considered crap typically last 100,000 miles. Fifty years ago a car that went that far was practically a candidate for car sainthood.

Thank whatever that they don't make them like they used to.

[RKP5637]

21. Oh, I remember those very well, had them and worked on them. I remember so

well the crap that used to go wrong with them all of the time. The designers back then will flat out tell one that quality was not a goal. And if they ran ok, then the rust would get you. They started rusting out the day you drove them off the lot.

I'm speaking of planned obsolescence in terms of parts availability. With a good supply of parts today, many cars could go on for thousands and thousands of miles.

[woo me with science]

22. One difference is the cost of parts now, and the strings attached when cars are purchased.

It used to be that lower income people could buy a car and replace parts fairly easily and cheaply as they failed, particularly if they had some auto repair skills themselves or "knew a guy." Parts were generally fairly consistent and interchangeable, and not difficult to find. The newer cars increasingly have very complex computer systems and specialized parts that must be purchased from the dealer at exorbitant prices. A broken headlight that you used to be able to purchase at an auto supply shop and put in yourself for 15 dollars now can cost several hundred to replace.

In addition, the auto corporations are increasingly narrowing the options car owners have for getting repairs. Increasing numbers of the new automobiles come equipped with a computer system that only the dealer can access. You must return to them for service and pay their prices, and they can even demand you come in for maintenance at specified intervals, or your warranty can be voided. Even after your warranty expires, you can't go to an independent mechanic anymore, unless that mechanic has purchased the right to the computer system from the dealer. No more getting a good deal from your brother-in-law or a discount mechanic you know. In effect, you end up leasing a car that you should rightfully own.

Planned obsolescence plus the skyrocketing costs of making even minor repairs to the newer cars can put automobile ownership very quickly out of the reach of many people.

[Selatius]

31. Well, mechanics can always illegally obtain hardware to get access to those systems.

I mean, most established mechanics won't do that, but there are always those who could jury-rig a fix to anything given enough resources and time for a negotiated fee.

[woo me with science]

32. I can't tell if you are being sarcastic here.

Please excuse me here; I haven't had my coffee yet...but it sounds like you are arguing that it's okay because mechanics can get around it by breaking the law.

I really hope you're joking or just making a wry observation rather than that argument.

The point is that the little guys shouldn't have to be in this position. This is how the corporations squeeze out competition and ensure that people who buy their cars will continue to pay them big money for years to come. They are building in conditions to the purchase of a product that lock the customers into their corporate net and prevent them from getting a good price elsewhere, and lock out "little" mechanics from being able to provide services on the cars they produce.

Once I buy something, it should be mine. I should not be locked into paying more to that company for the lifetime of the product.

[baldguy]

34. Copyright law and EULAs make your last sentance a joke.

You might own your computer, but you don't own the software that it runs. And without the software, it's just a fancy paperweight.

Imagine if auto manufacturers did the same thing? Guess what? They are.

[woo me with science]

37. Um, that was kind of my point. nt

[Selatius]

48. Not that it's ok. Just noting that an underground market will emerge if it's the case. nt

[SheilaT]

41. I can recall growing up in the 1950's and 60's

that my parents struggled mightily to own and keep running a series of old clunkers. My father had absolutely no car repair skills, and I'm sure he wasn't exactly the only male in this country at this time like that.

My own experience in owning cars since 1967 or so, is that they get more and more reliable all the time. Especially, the Japanese cars. The only reason I have purchased my last several cars is because of the previous one getting totalled in a car accident. Well, actually I did trade in a Subaru that hadn't been totalled, but the head gasket went, and I decided it was the better part of caution to replace it at that point.

Meanwhile, I do the routine maintenance and experience high reliability and low cost.

Again, modern cars are lasting so much longer than those of forty, fifty, or sixty years ago that I seriously question the term "planned obsolescence". My current car is a 2004 Honda Civic with almost 68,000 miles on it, and when I eventually replace it, it will only be if it's been demolished in an accident or if I simply decide I want a newer vehicle.

[CreekDog]

43. the computer systems are key to protecting air quality

which has improved over the decades.

and those old VW's that anybody could fix? hell on air quality. no computers.

[JoeyT]

45. Yeah, because the windshield washer reservoir sensor

some of which cost a hundred bucks and will prevent some cars from cranking if it screws up is really cutting down on that smog.

Some of the computerization is about air quality, and that's a good thing. For most it's about sticking an assload of parts in there that HAVE to be replaced, even if they're completely unnecessary.

[JoeyT]

46. That's because in many cars you can't replace something like a broken headlight.

You get to buy and replace a "headlamp assembly". I just bought a new one for my car and paid three hundred bucks for a piece of plastic. "What could possibly do three hundred bucks of damage to a car?" you might ask. "A deer? A bear? A tree? Elephant attack?" No, it was hitting a house finch doing fifty.

Cars now are only built to last as long as you never drive them anywhere.

[hunter]

40. The nice thing about these old cars now...

... is that you can make the parts they need in any decent shop.

We've got a few shops in our town that can modify a modern part or make a new part from scratch for any antique car.

Cars from the 50's and 60's can go forever.

[malaise]

33. Not true

Those old time Singer sewing machines still work. :evilgrin:

[RKP5637]

38. Yeah, they do don't they. I've got one here, no idea what to do with it, it's an

amazing piece of machinery.

[onehandle]

3. I see a battle between the dwindling of rare metals and the adoption of recycling them.

So many people just dump computers, phones and the many computer-controlled components you speak of in... well, the dump.

It can't last forever. Unless, we recycle and live, smarter.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. You'll buy an iCar by Apple

It will cost three times as much as a regular car, and you just throw it away at the end of its two year useful life and buy the next model, the iCar4G to drive for another couple of years.

I recommend getting the iCar Quadra. It costs a lot more, and I have no idea why, but it must be better than the cheaper models because it's a Quadra.

[Fumesucker]

11. You forgot to mention iGas, the only fuel the iCar will run on..

And you can only get it from Apple.

[Cronus Protagonist]

12. Well, of course, and since there is no way to access the battery compartment...

.... drop by your local Apple dealership for the repairs. While you wait for the iCar Genius to change your battery, you can sit in a white room and watch the Apple channel on a white iTV that has no buttons anywhere to be seen.

[liberal N proud]

5. I keep a 1990 and a 2000 vehicle running from a junk yard

You have to worry when Ford teams up with Microsoft to put software in their car.

Brings all new meanings to the term "Blue screen of death."

[blogslut]

6. 3D printers

[joshcryer]

Hehe

[guitar man]

7. I'm rebuilding a '65 chevy pickup right now

And I've got my eye on a rebuildable '64 mercury comet for my wife. ;)

[FLPanhandle]

8. You do have to admit modern cars drive much better than the olden ones.

This comes from a guy who owned a 50's Chevy and a 64 Vet. Styling today can't touch those old cars, but for pure handling, stopping, and driving, that technology sure does work.

[baldguy]

9. "Just what do you think you're doing, Dave?"

[Odin2005]

10. Yup. Good luck trying to fix your car yourself, nowdays.

[Fumesucker]

13. We do quite a bit of it around here..

If you have an OBD code reader it can actually make it easier to diagnose problems than in the old cars..

Ferinstance, we had an Expedition tow vehicle that developed a really rough idle fairly suddenly, put your foot down and it ran fine but it lurched and stumbled at at idle.

I read the codes on the computer and it came up indicating lean on one bank of cylinders, looked up that code online and the first page I came to pointed to a vacuum leak in a rather inaccessible spot.. I sprayed some WD40 on the spot and got a puff of smoke out the exhaust, problem diagnosed.

I've done it both ways since about 1970, in many ways it's easier with computers and in some ways it can be a lot harder.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

18. Yep sometimes it's easier to wait till they trip a code.

I had an intermittent miss in my Expe. There was a long drawn out process to diagnose the problem - OR - wait for a code to trip. I waited.

Autozone or PepBoys will hook you up to the OBD for free.

[AdHocSolver]

26. I had a similar problem with a 1960's car.

Instead of a $200 OBD code reader, I hooked up my $14.95 vacuum gauge to the intake manifold and noticed low vacuum. Visually inspected the vacuum lines and found a crack in one of them. Made a short run to an auto parts store to get a length of appropriately sized tubing for about $2.00. Installed the new vacuum line and problem solved.

It wasn't totally essential to have test equipment. However, a vacuum gauge, dwell meter/tachometer (for setting points gap and idle speed), a gap/feeler gauge (for setting spark plug gap and initial points gap, and valve clearance), and a timing light would set a person up for tuning up and repairing just about any car.

After-market parts for just about any car could be purchased inexpensively at numerous parts stores.

Service manuals could be purchased inexpensively for just about any car from the manufacturer, and publishers such as Haynes and Chilton published their own service manuals as well.

Today, service data is obtained via a DVD or on-line for a hefty price (per my independent repair shop mechanic), assuming the manufacturer will supply it at all. It is cheaper to buy gold.

Cars do run better today. Eliminating lead from gasoline eliminated a big source of trouble. Replacing carburetors with fuel injectors, and moving to electronic ignition systems improved reliability and longevity. Most car manufacturers made these changes in the 1980's.

However, today's cars are much more expensive to repair, especially if the problem involves the computer in any way, and manufactures have made repairs much more difficult and discouraging for the do-it-yourself mechanic.

Cars are often loaded with all manner of expensive gadgets to develop problems (which is why I always buy a base model with the fewest gadgets).

However, manufacturers design their products to be essentially "unrepairable", that is, if it breaks, throw it away and buy a new one.

Running just about everything in a car by computer is the same as "putting all your eggs in one basket". If any part of the computer fails, it can take down numerous functions, and the entire computer module needs to be replaced very expensively.

Years ago, the engineering model of choice was "modularity". The manufacturer benefited and so did the consumer.

Today's engineering model is "everything on one chip", and load up with features. The manufacturer benefits, but not so the consumer.

[Fumesucker]

30. If everyone was driving one of those 60's cars we wouldn't be able to breathe..

Planned obsolescence has been around for a long time, manufacturers have been designing stuff to break after a certain period since shortly after the assembly line was invented.

What I was saying before was that I didn't even have to search for the leak, look the code and the vehicle up on Google and it pointed me right at the problem and a hierarchy of lesser probabilities along with it, I knew what was the most likely thing to check next if the first item hadn't been the problem before I even walked out to the car.

[AdHocSolver]

47. I never suggested that we revert to 1960's technology.

However, by the 1990's, the major improvements in car design to improve gas mileage and reduce pollution had already been developed and in use.

This included such changes as lead-free gas, replacing carburetors with fuel injectors, electronic ignition systems, and catalytic converters.

The cars today have such "features" as "distributorless" ignition systems which provides each spark plug with its own coil in which the ignition timing is controlled by the ECM computer. This is much more expensive than the "old" system and buys little in increased performance. On the contrary, if a problem develops in the computer, the engine "shuts down", unlike the old system where the car will continue to function even if not as well.

[quaker bill]

14. I know too well

I bought an 12 year old minivan to use for my art business. It has a body control module problem. The damn thing goes off the reservation occasionally, activates the alarm / security system and disables the ignition while sitting in the parking lot. When you get in the instrument cluster is dead and the engine starts, but cuts off after about 3 seconds (an anti-theft feature). There are two cures, punch the dash correctly with your fist and the computer reboots, or occasionally pull the cable off the positive terminal of the battery for a bit to reboot the system. Th vehicle otherwise runs show room new and sails down the road perfectly, when you can get it started (nearly all the time, but not quite)

Once rebooted, the system runs normally for a few weeks.

I have read that it is faulty connections, so I am going to dismantle the dash this weekend get it out and see what I can do with it. Otherwise the "cure" runs about $500 to $1000.

[KoKo]

20. lol's "quaker bill." Just so you know your description of "punching dash correctly"

reminded me of the "old days" when you hit the dashboard hard or the engine and the damned thing would start.

Thanks for your info.. I didn't think it was possible to work with the new computer autos. You give me hope!

[quaker bill]

29. I don't actually know that it is "possible"

I have just read enough to give it a try. In theory one can get a manual and a hand scanner. The scanner will tell you which black box to replace.

I restored a 1956 Sunbeam once from the ground up using 3 junkyard cars for parts. Points, coils, solenoids and such were far easier to understand...

[hunter]

35. I've got one of those.

I removed the ant-theft (a.k.a. repo-man) "feature" in mine and re-soldered a couple of failed connections on the circuit board (car makers were still working the kinks out of lead-free solder) and it's been working since.

Before that the car wouldn't pass smog and the computer would randomly go psycho.

But it was a nasty business.

The dealers simply replace the entire mess and charge you a large fraction of what the old car is worth.

[quiller4]

15. You can still get genuine Ford parts for 20 year old Fords

We insist on genuine parts for our 1995 F150 and parts are not at all hard to come by. We had no trouble last summer getting parts for the 1993 Ford Tempo (Canadian built 6 cyl with 5 speed)that we gave our neighbor.

Our next door neighbor owns a garage. He says anyone who says he can't get factory parts for a Ford, GM or Chrysler vehicle that is 15-20 years old just doesn't want your repair business.

[Historic NY]

16. I've got 73 & 74 Mopars that have some emission controls...& minimal

circuit boards thy are easier to fix now then they were back then. I just took one on a 300+ mile trip during the hurricane it ran better than ever. I have trouble with plastic componets which get brittle....I'm looking at this technology.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/jay-leno/technology/4320759

[ellenfl]

24. perhaps i should keep my 17 yo camry(?) eom

[HCE SuiGeneris]

17. "You're feeling sleepy..."

HAL 3000 has all in hand.

[flvegan]

23. Buy another disposable ashtray, er...I mean car from the Pacific Rim.

Or some Gawdawful shitbox from China or India.

A Daewoo in every driveway! We have the Kia to your heart!

I'm gonna buy a '67 Stingray and pray that Holley and Edelbrock never go out of business.

[stevedeshazer]

25. I wish you could see it from my POV.

We recycle cars.

My company makes big bucks doing this.

Rebuilding stuff doesn't make much sense anymore. It's cheaper and just sa reliable to use recycled parts.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Trade mine in on a new one! n/t

[Edweird]

28. I eliminated the computers from my 97 suburban after persistent issues.

Yes, there are some incidental processors in it now - I have a B&M lock up and a Cable-X to convert the pulse signal to a mechanical signal my speedometer can read - but it's all stuff carried by Summit or Jeg's.

I swapped the 4L60E for a 700R4. A custom brake T and a Wilwood proportioning valve replaced the ABS.

I love my truck and intend to drive it until the wheels fall off. I've got around 200k on it and expect to get another 200k out of it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

36. That concerns me too, DB.

I wish we had what the old VW bugs used to be, only battery powered - a basic car cheap enough for everybody to afford (subsidized would be good) and easy to repair. Very simple but functional. That's what I had hoped might be made a condition of the auto bailout. Oh well.

[MicaelS]

39. I don't know...my 1999 Malibu BCM went bad,

Chevy quit making BCMs, only remanufactured ones were available. In fact the dealer told told me they couldn't figure out how the car would start and run since their diagnostic computer couldn't access any of the three computers on the car. They said they weren't even sure what was really wrong with the car. They told me they could replace all three computers on the car, but they wouldn't guarantee that would fix the car. And the repair cost would equal the book value of the car.

I had to buy another car even though the Malibu was paid off, got good gas mileage, and used little oil with 130k miles on the odometer.

[CreekDog]

42. Ironic, you posted that from a computer :eyes:

whatever it is you're railing about, you don't seem to realize that it's everywhere.

[Azooz]

44. 3D printers

Lots of youtube clips and DU posts about 3d printers.

Need a new fan belt or front bumper, just click "print" :)

They also print rare and hard to find tools.

Thinking another ten years - I want a 3d printer that prints out a brand new red 1959 Vet raw material from my trash