FRONTLINE: Top CIA Official: Obama Changed Virtually None of Bush’s Controversial Programs

[kpete]

Top CIA Official: Obama Changed Virtually None of Bush’s Controversial Programs
September 1, 2011, 11:02 am ET by Sarah Moughty
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/topsecretamerica/top-cia-official-obama-changed-virtually-none-of-bushs-controversial-programs/

..............

In a preview of a forthcoming PBS Frontline documentary, John Rizzo, one of the top attorneys for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), claims that President Barack Obama has “endorsed” nearly all of the controversial Bush administration secret warfare programs.

“I was part of the transition briefings of the incoming Obama team, and they signaled fairly early on that the incoming president believed in a vigorous, aggressive, continuing counterterrorism effort,” Rizzo said. “Although they never said it exactly, it was clear that the interrogation program was going away. We all knew that.

“But his people were signaling to us, I think partly to try to assure us that they weren’t going to come in and dismantle the place, that they were going to be just as tough, if not tougher, than the Bush people.”

He added: “With a notable exception of the enhanced interrogation program, the incoming Obama administration changed virtually nothing with respect to existing CIA programs and operations. Things continued. Authorities were continued that were originally granted by President Bush beginning shortly after 9/11. Those were all picked up, reviewed and endorsed by the Obama administration.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/cia-lawyer-obama-endorsed-nearly-all-bush-era-programs/

[FiveGoodMen]

1. !

[Uncle Joe]

2. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[ixion]

3. gee, no kidding

it's one of the PRIMARY reasons I've lost faith in him. I didn't support those policies when Chimpy was around, and I sure as hell don't support them now.

[Harmony Blue]

Obama has lost his way

Yeah I said it, but you have to stand for something...and right now I am not sure what Obama stands for.

[Javaman]

49. You have to have a direction first in order to lose ones way. nt

[FedUp_Queer]

85. He stands for compromise...of EVERYTHING.

[COLGATE4]

105. I do. He stands for re-election. Period.

[Broderick]

113. He is rather good at campaigning.

I give him that.

[Harmony Blue]

43. Obama has lost his way

Yeah I said it, but you have to stand for something...and right now I am not sure what Obama stands for.

[Hawkowl]

4. Good thing McCain didn't win

Or horrors! What if Perry wins?!?! Will he continue Bush/Obama's policies? :yoiks:

[Robb]

5. Rizzo, who now works for a firm that adores defending Enron CEOs and other banksters.

Rizzo, who was shocked, shocked I tell you, that interrogation videos were destroyed.

Meh. For all I know he could be telling the truth this time. :D

[Electric Monk]

6. This 'paying attention to politics' thing gets pretty complicated, doesn't it?

He said she said what to who?

I feel like a drink.

What does a drink feel like?

Ask a glass of water.

[Robb]

15. Rizzo, John Ashcroft, William Haynes II, John Bellinger III....

I'm pretty sure I'd look twice if any of them told me the sky was blue. :D

[EFerrari]

8. One of Obama's first official visits was to CIA to reassure them

there would be no prosecutions.

In a way, I don't blame him. I'd rather not see him shot by a lone nut.

[newspeak]

97. when Obama was elected, the first thing I thought of

was he better clean house in the CIA. Because Little Boots installed all his "loyalists" in the agency and got rid of those who would question the chimperor. Instead, Obama reassures Little Boots loyalists, that all is well. the same with the military. We had generals who had some honor and told it like it is, they were dismissed under Little Boots because they wouldn't go along with their grand plans. Officers who actually cared about their troops. Now, Patreaus is heading the CIA? Very scary, very scary indeed.

[cui bono]

104. Same with US Attorneys. Never did the big change up. n/t

[leveymg]

7. Apparently, that applies to the use of agents provocateur and double-agents, and

luring known would-be terrorists to board aircraft entering U.S. airspace and assemble explosives, even if the bombs are known to be duds. In some cases, such as 9/11, 7/7, and the Ft. Hood shooter, the intentions of the attackers were known but agents provocateur and doubles were kept in place, with disastrous results.

A truly dangerous counter-terrorism strategy - one that it is hard to believe was allowed to continue, but apparently was.

[Hydra]

101. Who says they were a disaster?

People lap it up when these people are busted, and the people like me who point out that this is all too convenient and wouldn't have worked anyway are ignored.

The fear of terrorism is a powerful weapon in the right hands.

[leveymg]

114. 9/11, 7/7, and Ft. Hood weren't disasters?

"Successes" by someone's measure, I guess. But, in my book, disasters.

[Selena Harris]

117. Remember Viktor Bout ??:

Viktor Bout Statements to US Agents Coerced, Judge Rules

BusinessWeek - 6 days ago
24 (Bloomberg) -- Viktor Bout, a Russian accused of conspiring to sell weapons to a Colombian terrorist group, won a bid to bar from his trial statements he ...

[leveymg]

120. Victor always treated capture as a meet and greet opportunity with a new client

A thoroughly remarkable (and consistent) mercenary of the highest Order of Lenin. Right up there with Serge and some of the other greats of the NKVD and MGB eras. Not clear if he ever really went over to the Americans like the Orlovs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the DEA case completely falls apart and they let him walk again.

Bout's lieutenants have the same history of walking away from plane crashes.

It appears that Victor was CIA Air Khartoum-Bosnia and he never really stopped doing business with him, even while 11 of the 9/11 hijackers were loading baggage for him at the airports he ran in UAE and Afghanistan. See, http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?other_al-qaeda_operatives=complete_911_timeline_victor_bout&timeline=complete_911_timeline You know, not too many people have such a skills set, and you don't throw away such an asset lightly, just because of a little gun and drug running. Everybody's gotta make a living, right? Boy, isn't that the truth!

[Selena Harris]

121. Isn't it coincidental that...

issues such as gun running and extraordinary rendition flights(both of which Bout had been involved in)are issues that are now coming to the forefront-think ATF Fast and Furious-right when Bout is having hearings on HIS case?

[leveymg]

123. Are you suggesting that there's been a regime change, and they're rolling up some of the old assets?

I would be very surprised. But, nonetheless, I understand the WH was super pissed that the Underwear Bomber actually got to Detroit and tried to set himself off while the plane was over the Lake on approach.

If I were President, that would piss me off, too. But, does Obama have a high enough clearance to close down an operation like this, considering all that's happened? Would he try?

[Selena Harris]

128. What I am saying is...

that the TIMING is just too coincidental..amazing what legal discovery and testimony can(or might) reveal ,don't you think??

[Segami]

9. KICK!!

:kick:

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. And for 'enhanced interrogation' we've simply outsourced it.

WE DON'T TORTURE!*







*but we'll gladly use the intelligence gathered by those who do.

[EFerrari]

12. whose salaries we pay in Mogadishu. n/t

[izquierdista]

11. Change you can believe in?

I believe I have change in my pants pocket.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. More like 'chains you can believe in' - n/t

[Javaman]

51. No hope, no change. nt

[Divernan]

52. Some called Nixon a crook; Obama calls him an amateur.

[Fuddnik]

62. Change you can make believe in.

[kentuck]

13. Now, why would some Democrats be pissed off about that little issue?

It's a puzzle sometimes trying to figure out the next chess move.

[Javaman]

53. see that's were we mere mortals fail ourselves...

we don't have extra dimensional vision to understand the intricacies of 5D 23rd level chess.

it will be fun to watch as obama pulls back the curtain on the great oz only to reveal himself.

[FedUpWithIt All]

14. He waived the sanctions against several nations that use child soldiers.

That was a biggie for me personally.

He waived the sanctions in the name of "National Security". Old news but i never really got over it.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/10/26/why_is_obama_easing_restrictions_on_child_soldiers

[Javaman]

54. yeah, they went to war with the army they had not the one they wanted...

Oh wait, who said that again? Bah, doesn't matter. It seems to be the going philosophy.

[Maat]

93. We have similar stories ...

what ended the faith in Obama.

Shortly after Obama assumed office, I, a law school graduate (non-practicing), witnessed something that make my jaw drop. There was the president advocating "prolonged detention," or incarceration without charges (denial of habeas-corpus-related rights). I promptly went out and disenrolled from the Democratic Party, registering as an "independent."

No longer will I buy into this crap.

[ChillbertKChesterton]

129. Obama gets a pass for this because he is a liberal

People aren't nearly as upset by imperialist military actions or violations of constitutional/human rights such as torture or indefinite detention without charges - if it is a liberal doing it.

The Left was very upset and vocal against Bush doing these things, but most people on the left today act like it isn't happening. There were protests against the wars when Bush was doing it, but today there is nothing comparable, even though military operations in the middle east have only increased.

It's like Richard Nixon reaching out to China in the 70's , if it had been a liberal doing it, they would have been branded as a pinko commie sympathizing traitor and run out of town by angry mobs. However, a Republican Conservative did it, so it was an example of compromise and practicality.

Today, Obama is continuing all of the same foreign policies that Bush ushered in, yet the Left is by and large silent about it.

If we want the Democratic Party to stay true to it's values, it's important for the left to keep putting pressure on the people we voted for.

[CelticThunder]

16. when an empty suit sits in the Oval Office, doesn't matter if R or D is after the name....

It's still an empty suit.

[woo me with science]

17. Of course he didn't. nt

[Cherchez la Femme]

18. Hope! Change! Depression!

...variations on a film title (my LGBTQI & PLAG family may recognize this title :) )

[Javaman]

55. hopelessly changing depression. nt

[Dokkie]

108. But but

Bachmann, Perry, Romney, Paul may get into office and we would all be screwed. The truth is that these guys would be bad but they couldn't be that much worse than this. Yes, they have idiotic policies but they would witness the biggest riot and strike if they enacted some of their most insidious policies.

So lets vote for Obama "sucks a little less than the Rs"

[Arctic Dave]

19. Where is the Obama is nothing like bush crowd on this one?

Can't think of a clever enough spin to reply to this I guess.

Tell me again why I'm supposed to fear "another bush" when it would appear he never really left.

[Javaman]

56. It's early, give it time. nt

[tblue]

83. They're here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x760738

They love hating on "the Left." Everything is our fault. If only we all loved everything Obama did, the world would be a better place.

[alarimer]

87. They're all in that other thread.

Where Obama's critics are all propagandists bought and paid for by the right. Or something. I couldn't really tell.

[Dokkie]

109. They are busy unrecing the thread

[gateley]

20. What "controversial programs" does he mean, pray tell?

None are cited in this piece, although it does acknowledge the 'enhanced interrogation program' has been changed.

People are up in arms -- may I ask about WHAT? I'd like to find out just what he retained. Specifically.

[SharksBreath]

37. Black sites.

[gateley]

82. Thanks. nt

[Dragonfli]

21. This is no surprise to many that have been following the progress of such "programs"

The only difference I can see is that Obama outsources 100% of torture (I am not sure I can even believe that) as opposed to Bush outsourcing 75%.
The third way is real big on "free trade" so, perhaps we outsource it all now after all.

[pam4water]

22. LOL It changed because the Bush Administration was dumb enough to believe Obama meant all the stuff

he said about changing thing sin Washington when he got elected. Priceless :rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

23. This is like so not gonna hurt Obama in the general

So I am guessing they timed it to encourage a primary challenger or third party splitter.

"Enhanced interrogation" aka TORTURE, was the main thing he was supposed to end.

[Dawgs]

45. Stories like this have ALREADY hurt him.

But, keep pretending that it doesn't. Maybe some day you'll realize that it means more than just getting your Democrat elected.

[Marr]

86. Is Obama's career really the lense through which you view everything?

That's just bizarre to me.

[McCamy Taylor]

24. Can we get a headline rewrite? "OBAMA ENDS TORTURE"

See what a difference a title makes?

[TheKentuckian]

25. Does outsource mean end in your native tongue?

[JHB]

39. Am I a bad Democrat if I regard that as a minimum requirment?

So "Yay!" end of torture. When can we expect that for warrantless wiretapping, among other things?

[chill_wind]

48. Has he?

What is going on at Baghram?

Here is just a little of what has emerged:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=540433&mesg_id=540433

http://www.alternet.org/rights/117807/how_the_u.s._army%27s_field_manual_codified_torture_--_and_still_does/?page=entire

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/05/hbc-90007044

http://www.amnesty.org.au/hrs/comments/20575/

http://firedoglake.com/2010/01/04/torture-confirmed-at-guantanamo-army-field-manual-codified-abuse/

http://my.firedoglake.com/valtin/2010/05/11/icrc-confirms-existence-of-second-secret-prison-at-bagram-bbc-reports-torture/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/world/asia/29bagram.html?_r=1&hp

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/27/AR2009112703438.html?hpid=topnews

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8621973.stm

http://pubrecord.org/torture/8414/report-links-field-manuals-notorious/

Obama Has 'Institutionalized' Worst Bush Practices

"The President began his administration with a big series of presidential orders that supposedly ended the Bush administration’s policy of torturing prisoners, and shut down the CIA’s black site prisons. But as we know now, not all the black site prisons were shut down. Nor was the torture ended. Whether it’s beatings and forced-feedings at Guantanamo, or the kinds of torture described at Bagram, it’s obvious that torture has not been rooted out of U.S. military-intelligence operations. In fact, by way of the Obama administration’s recent approval of the Bush-era Army Field Manual on interrogations, with its infamous Appendix M, which allows for much of the kind of torture practiced at Bagram, the White House has institutionalized a level of torture that was introduced by the previous administration."

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2010/05/what-we-know-about-now-confirmed-black-site-prison-at-bagram/24494/

[Solly Mack]

69. +1

People conveniently forget that the Army Field Manual was revised to include actions(abuses/torture) illegal under the Geneva Conventions and the CAT. (Convention Against Torture) - so when people praise the use of the Army Field Manual and point to it as a sign of improvement - that's what they're praising...abuse/torture..and a change made under Bush to cloak that abuse.



http://ccrjustice.org/get-involved/action/close-torture-loopholes-army-field-manual

[tblue]

78. and targeting Americans for assassination. AMERICANS!

Apr 6, 2010 – U.S. Approves Targeted Killing of American Cleric

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/middleeast/07yemen.html

[GOTV]

90. And you know that how? Because he told you he did? Does the Red Cross have access to

... every single facility and prisoner we hold?

[Bluebear]

126. +

[Maat]

92. Dream on.

Eventually, you will realize that Obama is just another tool of the International Corporate Oligarchy (the PTB, Powers That Be), just like Dubya was.

[blkmusclmachine]

26. When does all that "Change" begin?

SSDD (Same $h!t, Different Day).

[Javaman]

58. When that's all you got left in your pocket. that and lint. nt

[Bluebear]

125. +

[pezDispenser]

27. now now

I'm sure this is move 734 of the 3 dimensional chess match the POTUS is playing. In 30 or 40 more years we will all see the intricate strategy behind these moves.

[Javaman]

59. Exactly!

we will completely understand in 30 years when we are all working as serfs in corporate run gewgaw camps.

We will think, as we stamp out the latest version of the iPod26, "that obama was correct, he brought jobs back to America! Now give me my 2 cigarette ration, I'm hungry!"

[defendandprotect]

28. Didn't think there was any question about that ... !!!

[OnyxCollie]

29. 2 Afghans allege abuse at U.S. site

2 Afghans allege abuse at U.S. site
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/27/AR2009112703438.html

By Joshua Partlow and Julie Tate
Saturday, November 28, 2009

KABUL -- Two Afghan teenagers held in U.S. detention north of Kabul this year said they were beaten by American guards, photographed naked, deprived of sleep and held in solitary confinement in concrete cells for at least two weeks while undergoing daily interrogation about their alleged links to the Taliban.

~snip~

The holding center described by the teenagers appeared to have been a facility run by U.S. Special Operations forces that is separate from the Bagram Theater Internment Facility, the main American-run prison, which holds about 700 detainees. The teenagers' descriptions of a holding area on a different part of the Bagram base are consistent with the accounts of two other former detainees, who say they endured similar mistreatment, but not beatings, while being held last year at what Afghans call Bagram's "black" prison.

~snip~

There have been reports about the existence of an interrogation facility at Bagram that is run by Special Operations forces, but little has been disclosed about living conditions or interrogation methods there. Representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross have not been permitted access to the detainees at this facility. The site has continued to operate under the terms of an executive order that Obama signed soon after taking office, which forced the closure of secret prisons run by the CIA but not those run by Special Operations forces.

[OnyxCollie]

30. K&R. nt

[Bluebear]

31. Hope! Change! CORRUPT!

[OnyxCollie]

33. ...

Obama called on the former general chairman of the RNC to stop Spain's investigation of US torture crimes.

WikiLeaks: How U.S. tried to stop Spain's torture probe
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/25/105786/wikileaks-how-us-tried-to-stop.html

MIAMI — It was three months into Barack Obama's presidency, and the administration -- under pressure to do something about alleged abuses in Bush-era interrogation policies -- turned to a Florida senator to deliver a sensitive message to Spain:

Don't indict former President George W. Bush's legal brain trust for alleged torture in the treatment of war on terror detainees, warned Mel Martinez on one of his frequent trips to Madrid. Doing so would chill U.S.-Spanish relations.

US embassy cables: Don't pursue Guantánamo criminal case, says Spanish attorney general
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/202776?INTCMP=SRCH

6. (C) As reported in SEPTEL, Senator Mel Martinez, accompanied by the Charge d'Affaires, met Acting FM Angel Lossada during a visit to the Spanish MFA on April 15. Martinez and the Charge underscored that the prosecutions would not be understood or accepted in the U.S. and would have an enormous impact on the bilateral relationship. The Senator also asked if the GOS had thoroughly considered the source of the material on which the allegations were based to ensure the charges were not based on misinformation or factually wrong statements. Lossada responded that the GOS recognized all of the complications presented by universal jurisdiction, but that the independence of the judiciary and the process must be respected. The GOS would use all appropriate legal tools in the matter. While it did not have much margin to operate, the GOS would advise Conde Pumpido that the official administration position was that the GOS was "not in accord with the National Court." Lossada reiterated to Martinez that the executive branch of government could not close any judicial investigation and urged that this case not affect the overall relationship, adding that our interests were much broader, and that the universal jurisdiction case should not be viewed as a reflection of the GOS position.

Judd Gregg, Obama's Republican nominee for Commerce secretary, didn't like the investigations either.

US embassy cables: Don't pursue Guantánamo criminal case, says Spanish attorney general
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/202776?INTCMP=SRCH

4. (C) As reported in REF A, Senator Judd Gregg, accompanied by the Charge d'Affaires, raised the issue with Luis Felipe Fernandez de la Pena, Director General Policy Director for North America and Europe during a visit to the Spanish MFA on April 13. Senator Gregg expressed his concern about the case. Fernandez de la Pena lamented this development, adding that judicial independence notwithstanding, the MFA disagreed with efforts to apply universal jurisdiction in such cases.

Why the aversion? To protect Bushco, of course!

US embassy cables: Spanish prosecutor weighs Guantánamo criminal case against US officials
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/200177

The fact that this complaint targets former Administration legal officials may reflect a "stepping-stone" strategy designed to pave the way for complaints against even more senior officials.

Eric Holder got the message.

Holder Says He Will Not Permit the Criminalization of Policy Differences
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7410267&page=1

As lawmakers call for hearings and debate brews over forming commissions to examine the Bush administration's policies on harsh interrogation techniques, Attorney General Eric Holder confirmed to a House panel that intelligence officials who relied on legal advice from the Bush-era Justice Department would not be prosecuted.

"Those intelligence community officials who acted reasonably and in good faith and in reliance on Department of Justice opinions are not going to be prosecuted," he told members of a House Appropriations Subcommittee, reaffirming the White House sentiment. "It would not be fair, in my view, to bring such prosecutions."

CIA Exhales: 99 Out of 101 Torture Cases Dropped
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/06/cia-exhales-99-out-of-101-torture-cases-dropped/

This is how one of the darkest chapters in U.S. counterterrorism ends: with practically every instance of suspected CIA torture dodging criminal scrutiny. It’s one of the greatest gifts the Justice Department could have given the CIA as David Petraeus takes over the agency.

Over two years after Attorney General Eric Holder instructed a special prosecutor, John Durham, to “preliminar(ily) review” whether CIA interrogators unlawfully tortured detainees in their custody, Holder announced on Thursday afternoon that he’ll pursue criminal investigations in precisely two out of 101 cases of suspected detainee abuse. Some of them turned out not to have involved CIA officials after all. Both of the cases that move on to a criminal phase involved the “death in custody” of detainees, Holder said.

But just because there’s a further criminal inquiry doesn’t necessarily mean there will be any charges brought against CIA officials involved in those deaths. If Holder’s decision on Thursday doesn’t actually end the Justice Department’s review of torture in CIA facilities, it brings it awfully close, as outgoing CIA Director Leon Panetta noted.

“On this, my last day as Director, I welcome the news that the broader inquiries are behind us,” Panetta wrote to the CIA staff on Thursday. “We are now finally about to close this chapter of our Agency’s history.”

CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html

...

Article 4

Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

Article 5

Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4 in the following cases:
When the offences are committed in any territory under its jurisdiction or on board a ship or aircraft registered in that State;
When the alleged offender is a national of that State;
When the victim was a national of that State if that State considers it appropriate.
Each State Party shall likewise take such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over such offences in cases where the alleged offender is present in any territory under its jurisdiction and it does not extradite him pursuant to article 8 to any of the States mentioned in Paragraph 1 of this article.
This Convention does not exclude any criminal jurisdiction exercised in accordance with internal law.

Article 6

Upon being satisfied, after an examination of information available to it, that the circumstances so warrant, any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is present, shall take him into custody or take other legal measures to ensure his presence. The custody and other legal measures shall be as provided in the law of that State but may be continued only for such time as is necessary to enable any criminal or extradition proceedings to be instituted.
Such State shall immediately make a preliminary inquiry into the facts.
Any person in custody pursuant to paragraph 1 of this article shall be assisted in communicating immediately with the nearest appropriate representative of the State of which he is a national, or, if he is a stateless person, to the representative of the State where he usually resides.
When a State, pursuant to this article, has taken a person into custody, it shall immediately notify the States referred to in article 5, paragraph 1, of the fact that such person is in custody and of the circumstances which warrant his detention. The State which makes the preliminary inquiry contemplated in paragraph 2 of this article shall promptly report its findings to the said State and shall indicate whether it intends to exercise jurisdiction.

Article 7

The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
These authorities shall take their decision in the same manner as in the case of any ordinary offence of a serious nature under the law of that State. In the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 2, the standards of evidence required for prosecution and conviction shall in no way be less stringent than those which apply in the cases referred to in article 5, paragraph 1.
Any person regarding whom proceedings are brought in connection with any of the offences referred to in article 4 shall be guaranteed fair treatment at all stages of the proceedings.

Article 8

The offences referred to in article 4 shall be deemed to be included as extraditable offences in any extradition treaty existing between States Parties. States Parties undertake to include such offences as extraditable offences in every extradition treaty to be concluded between them.
If a State Party which makes extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty receives a request for extradition from another State Party with which it has no extradition treaty, it may consider this Convention as the legal basis for extradition in respect of such offenses. Extradition shall be subject to the other conditions provided by the law of the requested State.
States Parties which do not make extradition conditional on the existence of a treaty shall recognize such offences as extraditable offences between themselves subject to the conditions provided by the law of the requested state.
Such offences shall be treated, for the purpose of extradition between States Parties, as if they had been committed not only in the place in which they occurred but also in the territories of the States required to establish their jurisdiction in accordance with article 5, paragraph 1.

Article 9

States Parties shall afford one another the greatest measure of assistance in connection with civil proceedings brought in respect of any of the offences referred to in article 4, including the supply of all evidence at their disposal necessary for the proceedings.
States Parties shall carry out their obligations under paragraph 1 of this article in conformity with any treaties on mutual judicial assistance that may exist between them.

...

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[democrank]

35. Squandered opportunity....

That`s how I`m going to remember President Obama when I think of him and the "change" he promised.

[Javaman]

60. Squandered by whom?

got to have an opportunity to squander in order for it to be lost.

we were the ones who saw the opportunity for real change for America.

What did Obama see? I good way to make money? It appears as if his "vision" for america was pretty short sighted.

[quaker bill]

36. You mean he kept the normal stuff and ended the torture

fascinating, and pretty much what I expected. They have been "tougher" than the Bush folks, OBL is dead.

[SharksBreath]

38. I would hope any American who thinks it's ok to

live with drones flying over your house when your eating dinner or god forbid gathering for a wedding.

Get the chance to experience the feeling that you might be blown to smithereens.

There are two types of people in this world.

Those that can put themselves in another person's shoes and actually get a pretty good idea of what it might be like.

And those who don't believe it's tough to live in that person's shoe until they actually wear them. Step in shit.

Take off the shoe. Put the shoe till their nose and smell shit.

Then they realize how shitty it is to put on those shoes.

I fear you may be the latter.

[Divernan]

57. You are the Anti Quaker, quaker bill.

Your choice of "quaker" as your screen name is most bizarre.

Living Out the Peace Testimony
Friends have held that we should not participate in the wars of humans, or preparations for them. Thus, we have historically refused to be soldiers, refused to pay levies solely for war purposes, refused to work making weapons, and in every other way sought to separate ourselves from warmaking. At various times, Friends have suffered imprisonment, loss of income, and even death for their faithfulness to this testimony.

However, the peace testimony is not just about negatives. It requires us to live as peacemakers - with families, colleagues and neighbors as well as internationally. Over the centuries, Friends have been involved in a variety of efforts such as relief for war victims, seeking to foster understanding among diplomats of hostile nations, mediation, and training people in how to respond nonviolently in conflict situations.

The positive contributions of Friends in the area of peace have often been recognized by the larger society. In 1947, the Nobel Peace Prize was given to the American Friends Service Committee and the British Friends Service Council (now known as Quaker Peace and Service). The Prize was intended to recognize the peace work of the entire Religious Society of Friends, not just the two organizations named.

http://www.quakerinfo.com/quak_pce.shtml

[ret5hd]

66. maybe you are misinterpreting the screen name...

maybe its "quaker" with a short a rather than a long a.

maybe.

just sayin'.

[Divernan]

75. You are probably right - that would make sense.

[quaker bill]

127. I did not think I was electing a Quaker

from the op: "With a notable exception of the enhanced interrogation program". These agencies do alot of things I do not approve of and always have.

The "notable exception" is that he ended the torture. I approve of this. Lecture me on Friends peace testimony all you like, but try to live it and get back to me.

I never had any doubts that this President would kill OBL if he had the chance. I voted for him anyway. No post 9/11 President will dismantle the security efforts of the CIA. Bringing them somewhat more in line with international law is about the best one can hope for. Ending torture is a step in this direction.

The CIA does many things. The vast bulk of them, like intelligence gathering and assessment, are likely completely legal and not inconsistent with Friends Peace Testimony. Read "Peaceful Prevention of Deadly Conflict" as published by AFSC and you will find a recommendation for even better intelligence, as the best way to avoid deadly conflict is to have the information needed to step in before the killing starts.

[Javaman]

61. So you drop out of the sky and don't read the many many links

provided by the other posters in this thread, that clearly show that torture is still gong on in other nations under the aegis of US influence and control.

GOOD.FOR.YOU.
:eyes:

[cui bono]

118. He ended the torture? Links? Or by using "the" are you referring to only one specific instance?

[Fearless]

40. But but but... Congress... It's not like Bush just did things without Congress...

Oh wait.

[Marblehead]

41. shows who is really in charge..

[chill_wind]

42. And don't forget Baghram. Obama's very own

Guantanamo.

[Dawgs]

44. I expect nothing less than at least one of these types of stories EVERY DAY.

Third term of Bush would be nice compared to this.

[Divernan]

74. Fridays are Dump Days - wonder what the administration is going to dump on us this afternoon.

[saras]

112. Two good things about Bush - he was hated, and he was incompetent. This means he got less done...

...than someone with essentially the same goals, but a nicer public face and more social skills.

[elocs]

46. Where are the DU spinmeisters to explain this all away for us?

:shrug:

I am sure this is just all a big misunderstanding and can be easily explained away.

[Divernan]

77. MIA, but we can rest easy that THEY haven't been renditioned!

[elocs]

47. dupe, again

[blindpig]

50. The office has it's responsibilities......

to the ruling class. That does not change with party affiliation.

[hifiguy]

68. +1

[Dokkie]

111. Isnt that the sad truth

This is why I only vote for anti establishment candidates. We need someone who is willing to put his life on the line to change the direction of this country.

[Solly Mack]

63. K&R

[bighart]

64. Wars continue

Torture revised and disguised
More invasion of privacy at the airport
Continued tax cuts for the wealthiest
Wiretapping without warrants

What's not to love?

[Jakes Progress]

65. We know. We know. Damn it, we know.

Some of us won't admit it. Some of us are sick about it. But we know. Oh, yes. We know.

[hifiguy]

67. Just curious - has "extraordinary rendition" been ended?

If it hasn't, there is no plausible claim that torture conducted under the auspices of the US government has ceased.

[bighart]

70. Spot on

[Solly Mack]

71. No....but they claim they'll have more oversight.

You know...ask for diplomatic reassurances (snort)

and have periodic inspections...which evidence has shown isn't effective at all in preventing torture and other abuses.

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/2011/01/07/is-proxy-detention-the-obama-administrations-extraordinary-rendition-lite/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/25/us/politics/25rendition.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/01/nation/na-rendition1

[bighart]

72. But it works so well in preventing worker abuse

in countries we off-shored all our jobs to.

[Solly Mack]

73. Snort.

[totodeinhere]

91. We don't know what horrors are going on right now if any. Only

sometime in the future when some brave soul leaks some information in a Wikileaks type scenario will we find out about those things. And considering the ongoing torture of Bradley Manning, the leaker will indeed have to be very brave.

[Marr]

76. But... he's not a dictator! He needs Congress to uh...

Oh... he doesn't? WELL HE'S ONLY BEEN IN OFFICE A FEW YEARS! Give him some time! Also, the List!

[humbled_opinion]

79. I would like to think this is impossibe but...

I am starting to get a sinking feeling that Obama is about to move even more strongly to the right with the jobs speech.

business and personal tax-rate cuts a new tax cut for the rich. Discretionary spending cuts long-term reductions in Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security costs written into law now deregulation, including Environmental Protection Agency rules, unlimited oil- and gas-drilling authorization and permanent extension of the George W. Bush tax cuts; Limiting unemployment insurance extensions, etc.....

[Dragonfli]

110. Bookmark the link I provide, I expect him to mirror this plan:

http://www.industryweek.com/articles/u-s-_chamber_of_commerce_unveils_job-creation_plan_25482.aspx?Page=2&SectionID=3

He has said some things that sound very close to some of the bullet points in there already.

I somehow do not think that a direct work program and a reversal of "free trade" (the transfer your jobs overseas program) will be among his choices, I rather expect him to go C.O.C. than F.D.R. much as you do, but I suppose the date we are supposed to know is soon.

Another thing few appear to be talking about is the fact that what he proposes in his speech will be his starting point in negotiations with Boener and will move further right by the day as the actual plan is formed.
He is a lousy negotiator so buckle up for that part.

[xchrom]

80. recommend

[Waiting For Everyman]

81. “With a notable exception of the enhanced interrogation program..."

I'll read this story again later when I have more time, but my first reaction is...

You bet that's a "notable exception"! And since when is a CIA attorney so credible?

[newspeak]

84. remember when Little Boots cleaned house in the CIA?

only "loyal" agents need apply. And Obama has kept the same people-it seems to me very dangerous. When those generals wouldn't go along with Little boot's plan for war in Iraq, they were gone. And, Obama has kept Little Boot's "yes" men in place. Very little has changed, except now Patraeus is head of the CIA. One of the "yes" men of *. Not one of the honorable officers who were let go under Little Boots, but one of his retreads. That should tell you everything you need to know. It seems like the CIA is running the show, and if it is-is Cheney still the puppet master?

[OwnedByFerrets]

88. After almost 3 years, I am not the least bit surprised. We were all played.

[Festivito]

89. Kennedy tried to mess with the CIA. /nt

[ProSense]

94. So

<...>

I was part of the transition briefings of the incoming Obama team, and they signaled fairly early on that the incoming president believed in a vigorous, aggressive, continuing counterterrorism effort. Although they never said it exactly, it was clear that the interrogation program was going away. We all knew that.

But his people were signaling to us, I think partly to try to assure us that they weren’t going to come in and dismantle the place, that they were going to be just as tough, if not tougher, than the Bush people.

Rizzo, who was forced to withdraw his nomination to become CIA general counsel because of controversy over his role in developing the CIA’s secret detention and interrogation policies, also told us:

<...>

...a Bush appointee who was part of Bush's transition team, who helped to develop the interrogation policies and who was forced by Democrats to withdraw his nomination in 2007 is credible?

Really?

Not only is he a Republican hack, but he's also speaking from his alleged experience three years ago.

[Major Hogwash]

95. Don't harsh their buzz, man.

They're smoking bogus weed but they think this is what getting high is like.
Let them enjoy it until they get the headache that shit causes.

[chill_wind]

122. Don't be naive.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1858372&mesg_id=1861855

[Major Hogwash]

124. I'm not.

I'm agnostic, I don't believe any of the shit that people say about President Obama.

[AtheistCrusader]

100. You bring up good points but.

I would sure be nice if we had some operational goal transparency into the CIA. Obama didn't specifically promise that about the CIA when he talked about transparency, and that's fine, but *I* have no way of verifying if this guy's claims are true or not. So...

But you are correct, the burden of proof on proving the claims resides with the guy who made them, and he's offered us little if any evidence, other than his claims.

With his party affiliation, and links to Bush, I tend to disbelieve him... I would like to know more though.

[L. Coyote]

96. Obama, the intern at Sidley Austin, defenders of Bush criminals, does what Bush did, no pattern here

nope, none, move along, nothinbg to concern you here, keep moving, don't think, ......

[obxhead]

98. More "change we can believe in" hard at work.

With a Dem like this, they don't need a Repug.

[DeSwiss]

99. Surprise, surprise. NOT. - K&R n/t

[sfpcjock]

102. Yeah, if he changes them then the Secret Service takes a vacation.

[Solly Mack]

103. I'd just like to add...

Rizzo is scum. But this isn't about Rizzo.


I suspect his timing and his motives...but the fact remains, and the ACLU and CCR both say the same...there are still areas of concern under Obama in regards to the "war on terror".


People aren't cheering Rizzo...they're voicing the same concerns the ACLU and the CCR (and Human Rights First, and Amnesty International, and Reprieve, etc..) have voiced. I've read the entire thread and if others would do the same they would see the information provided by people who also have concerns with things like the use of the Army Field Manual, that was revised under Bush and does include violations of the Geneva Convention/CAT. People are also concerned over the CIA prison in Somalia, and with continued "renditions" to countries that practice torture. Just because waterboarding was ordered stopped doesn't mean everything is good again.

If you read the thread you will also see that this is so not about Rizzo at all - not for the DU members expressing their own concerns. It's about the problems that still exist in America's "war on terror".


I know it is easier to just attack Rizzo and his motives though. He is, after all, scum. He truly is scum, too. No denying that...the man is scum. He's guilty of war crimes. He is another one that should be prosecuted. (won't happen...but he should be/ and not just him ...and I feel nothing but disdain and contempt at those lack of prosecutions...my thoughts on the lack of prosecutions shouldn't be a secret to anyone...I make them known quite often)

Perhaps, though, this would have been better coming from another source...other than Rizzo. Someone who has been keeping up with America's torture program and any changes over the years..and changes that still need to be made. The ACLU or the CCR, for example. I'm sure everyone at DU would champion such a thread then.

Just for the record, nothing Rizzo (or any Republican/rightwinger or, for that matter, fellow Democrat) says will ever alter my opinion of Obama.

[BrightSideOfLife]

106. No more DINO's!

[ProgressIn2008]

107. Those who say Obama is "weak" or "capitulates" are burying their heads in ideological sand. nt

[Lucian]

115. Now that's change we can believe in.

:eyes:

[Initech]

116. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Rex]

119. Yeah the JD is the same way.

Fire the bums!