California bill to fund college for illegal immigrants advances

[The Northerner]

(Reuters) - A California bill dubbed the state's "Dream Act" that would allow illegal immigrants to receive public funds for college education was approved on Wednesday by the state Senate.

The legislation would still need to pass the Assembly and be signed by Governor Jerry Brown, a Democrat, to become law.

Proponents acknowledge that illegal immigrants who attend college are still not able to find legal employment after graduation, but they say the bill could eventually help spur the federal government to grant those students citizenship.

"The Senate made history today by voting to pass ... the final portion of the California Dream Act," Assembly member Gil Cedillo, a Democrat from Los Angeles and the author of the bill, said in a statement.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/01/us-dream-act-california-idUSTRE7800OW20110901

[ZombieHorde]

1. Awesome. Recommended. nt

[HappyMe]

49. +1 nt

[Obamanaut]

2. Funding college for legal citizens would be nice, and let the country

of origin of the illegal immigrants fund the education of those folks.

[LibDemAlways]

3. +1000. My daughter will be starting at a UC campus soon as a

freshman and her funding is coming directly from a savings account begun the day she was born and contributed to every paycheck since. I am not wealthy. I live very simply, but I recognized the need to provide for her education and I scrimped and saved to make it happen.

I do not begrudge anyone getting an education. I, do, however, do not feel it's the responsibility of the government - state or federal - to provide college tuition for undocumented students in the US. There are millions of US citizens who would appreciate some help in financing the high cost of college. They ought to be the priority.

[EFerrari]

8. The Cal Grant fund was created for California residents.

And it isn't in the interest of the state of California to consign 25,000 high school graduates every year to the status of a permanent underclass.

You can't think with your flag on this issue. You have to think about the long term interests of the community. And the fact is, there is no California citizen resident who will go without because these students are allowed to access the program.

[Drahthaardogs]

9. Okay, I can see that.

However, after they graduate, they should have to pay some sort of fine once they find employment. It does not have to be huge, but it should not be five bucks either. They are here illegally, educate them to they can integrate, but make them give back some of what they took that was not rightfully theirs.

[EFerrari]

10. What would that be, exactly? These people were brought here as children.

Would that be a fine on being a child?

What is it that they "took", exactly?

[pampango]

11. +1

[Obamanaut]

14. So they are rewarded via lower costs because their parents successfully

avoided capture, while the child of people who live in another state must pay higher tuition rates.

[Pooka Fey]

15. In a nutshell, yes. n/t

[Zywiec]

17. +1

[Bill McBlueState]

37. in-state tuition has always been determined by residency,

not citizenship. The idea is that you've already supported the system by paying taxes in the state, so you should get a break relative to those who have been living in other states. Citizenship is not relevant.

[Romulox]

56. If that were true, no "DREAM Act" would be needed. So obviously, you're incorrect. nt

[Luminous Animal]

69. Residency IS the requirement for California colleges... not citizen status.

The DREAM Act does not address entrance requirements but rather access to public grant money. The 1st part of the DREAM Act (passed in June or July) allows for access to private grant money. The 2nd part, now under consideration, allows for access to public grant money. The act clearly states that undocumented residents would only be able to access SURPLUS grant funds. That is, money left over after documented CA residents had qualified and received their grants.

[Romulox]

70. Point conceded. I was mistaken. nt

[treestar]

161. Sure. They are not rewarded so much as treated equally.

People should not be held responsible for their parents' actions.

[LanternWaste]

244. I imagine many people want the sins of the father to be passed down...

I imagine many people want the sins of the father to be passed down...

[blueamy66]

44. they are taking scholarship money from US citizens

What else needs to be said?

If I was a CA resident, I'd be pissed off.

Do you know how much my fiance and his ex are paying to send their son to a nice university? Even with scholarships????

This stinks to high Heaven.

[ZombieHorde]

58. Americans are no more deserving of education than Mexicans. nt

[Romulox]

62. By the same token then, California is no more "deserving" of tax dollars than is Mexico.

Two-way street! :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

66. I agree completely. I hope a day comes when all people help each other out.

The voters of California have taken a step toward that goal.

[Romulox]

68. "Every man for himself" is what is ACTUALLY happening, though.

There is no "all people help each other out" going on. Engage with reality, please! :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

71. How is offering financial aid to more people "every man for himself?"

Is my sarcasm detector off this morning?

[Romulox]

73. I was speaking of your idea, that people of all nations should help each other...not happening.

It's a nice fantasy, but doesn't match the reality of INCREASED poverty. :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

74. I agree that is not a current reality, but the voters of Californa have made one step

toward that ideal.

As Lao Tzu said: "A journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step." or "The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet." Depending on which translation you like.

[Romulox]

76. There's no evidence of that, whatever. nt

[ZombieHorde]

78. There is no evidence the goal wil ever be realized, but this is definately a step

toward that goal.

Leaving your house is not evidence you will make it to the store, but you still have to leave your house in order to get to the store. Progress is made step by step.

[sudopod]

88. PROTIP: California, like most blue states, is a net contributor of federal tax dollars.

lol

[Romulox]

97. It's not nearly as simple as that though, since we don't share resources as a state.

There are winners and losers with regard to Federal tax appropriations. California's agriculture industry is a BIG winner. That's not incompatible with California being a net-tax contributor.

"California, like most blue states, is a net contributor of federal tax dollars."

So is my state, Michigan. Do you think that means that none of my tax dollars support programs in California? Is that even a logical inference? :hi:

At any rate, I don't think my point was specific to Federal taxes, anyhow. If the government doesn't have special responsibility to the citizen, then the citizen likewise will have little reason to feel responsibility to the government.

[sudopod]

98. I must be honest. I really don't get how sending Mexican kids to college helps agribusiness. nt

[Romulox]

99. California Agribusiness doesn't pay a living wage, so the local government picks up the expense.

That's the general outline of the idea. But that wasn't what this subthread was about. :shrug:

[sudopod]

100. sooo...that's why Mexican kids shouldn't get college grants?

I mean, I don't get your argument. California has decided that it is in the state's interest not to have a permanent underclass. I don't see how that undermines anything.

[Romulox]

103. "Mexican kids" *should* get a lot of things. It's always of matter of who should pay for it.

"I mean, I don't get your argument."

To which argument do you refer? You seem to be the one interjecting all of these "arguments". :shrug:

[sudopod]

104. Ok, let's start over then. It look you don't think Cali's DREAM act should happen.

Why is that?

[blueamy66]

108. Okay, I'm Polish and my stepson is 1/2 Columbian and 1/2 Welsh

What does he get?

How do we get financial aid?

Is there a special scholarship program for Polish/Welsh/Colombian kids that were brought here illegally? Or better yet, born here legally?

BS

[sudopod]

109. I don't know, are you a California Resident? nt

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sudopod]

114. nnnnoooo....

California has decided that all California residents, regardless of immigration status, deserve a shot at those grants. Note especially, that they aren't getting special money for being immigrants, they are merely being given equal access to a pre-existing program for residents.

[blueamy66]

115. still don't like it

sorry...we're gonna have to agree to disagree

[LeftyMom]

151. Tough shit, you don't live here.

Californians want kids who went to California high schools getting access to California's excellent public universities.

[Luminous Animal]

153. +1!!

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftyMom]

226. Replying to your posts isn't stalking you.

Pointing out your contradictions isn't either. If you don't want to be called on your bullshit, stop posting obvious bullshit.

[Name removed]

251. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

143. well which half do you want to contribute to?

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

163. LOL

[LeftyMom]

146. This is the kid with the father in a $100K a year household and the mother so wealthy that father

shouldn't have to pay support?

He doesn't need a scholarship. And you really, really need to stop posting your financial information.

edit: Wait, this kid's already getting some scholarship money, according to you. Google is a useful tool. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=688125&mesg_id=689394

[blueamy66]

252. and there you go again...

looking up my posts

get a life

I cannot believe that anyone would post a link to a thread from the past....unless they had nothing else important to do.

again, get a life or a hobby or maybe clean your house SOMETHING other than stalking me

on edit: when you have a glimpse into my output vs. my input....I'll give a shit....let's talk about the fact that my Mom, Dad and Bro are all gone and I help financially with my nephew, 2 nieces and their SIX kids....when you know more about me...I'll give a shit about your opinion, k?

[blueamy66]

106. Sure.

If the Mexicans are going to MEXICAN universities.

You come here legally....more power to ya....

[ZombieHorde]

137. I think there are more opportunities in California than in Mexico.

You come here legally....more power to ya....

Do you really care about the law that much? You would be rare if you did; so many illegally download music, drive over the speed limit, smoke pot, etc.

[blueamy66]

253. I don't

I don't illegally download music, drive over the speed limit or smoke pot.

Hey, immigrate legally.....I have no problem with that. I work with a bunch of kids from India who are just dying to get their green cards.

[FloridaJudy]

240. Why on earth should they go to Mexican universities?

They live here. They went to high school here. They've paid taxes here: maybe not income taxes - if their parents are paid under the table - but surely sales tax and real estate tax through their rent.

And they plan to stay here. If we make it easier for them to get an education so that they can get a better job and pay even more taxes, we win.

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. Americans are more deserving of an American education.

Mexicans are more deserving of a Mexican education.

In fact, I'd replace "more" with "exclusively".

[ZombieHorde]

178. Why do flags trump education for you?

I am using the word flag metaphorically here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

189. Flag as a metaphor. Good.

This country was formed to ensure the blessings of liberty to its citizens. Mexico has a responsibility to provide for their own citizens. Nafta erodes the pay of US workers by offshoring jobs. Unlimited immigration erodes the pay of the US workers that remain.

What benefit to the taxpayers of California is provided by educating people who can't legally apply that education in the workforce? Highly educated undocumented workers, or more engineers and teachers in Mexico?

Educating an illegal immigrant in engineering does not improve the quality of US engineering. Using tax dollars to do it is more than wasteful, it's counterproductive, because Ford would like to do their engineering south of the border too.

[ZombieHorde]

217. Educated people are less likely to join gangs and/or commit violent crimes.

California has gang problem, or so I am told. Educating the poor will hopefully lesson some of the gang violence in long run.

If the illegal aliens from Mexico do return to their home country after their education, they will be better equipped to help their country economically, which should decrease the causes of illegal immigration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

227. So it's best to evenly spread the uneducated around?

State schools in California turn away applicants. The demand of college is greater than the supply.

Educated people are less likely to join gangs because that education enables them to get good jobs. An illegal alien with a PhD still can't work here.

The cause of illegal immigration is the fact that our standard of living is higher. So, you're absolutely right. When they return to their country with the education which was denied a legal resident, it does help to equalize the standards of living.

[Luminous Animal]

182. Mexicans are Americans. The United States does not own the continent.

[Luminous Animal]

63. Why would I be pissed? Undocumented children are already allowed in-state tuition...

the DREAM Act merely opens up opportunities for them to apply for assistance that is available to California residents ONLY. It also stipulates that they can only access surplus funds from money already set aside.

[blueamy66]

110. Are you paying tution for a college aged kid right now?

If you are....and you agree with this....something's up.

[Luminous Animal]

141. Yes I am. And the CA DREAM Act will not impact what I or anyone else pays.

So much ignorance. So little time.

The CA DREAM Act allows undocumented residents of California to apply for Cal Grant money. Their applications will be put on the bottom of the heap and funds available ONLY AFTER ALL QUALIFIED RESIDENTS HAVE RECEIVED THEIR FUNDS.

This is money specifically earmarked for Cal Grants. It does not come out of the general fund. It does not come out of any other part of the State or UC system. The money is a specific budget line item. And, if there is money left over, it will be made available to undocumented residents.

[blueamy66]

148. So much ignorance....

define qualified....

[Luminous Animal]

152. Those who cannot afford all or part of their tuition and meet the minimum GPA requirements.

The CAL Grant program is a budget line item. It's budget is separate from the State & UC systems budgets. In some years, there is money left over after all qualified documented resident candidates are considered. When that happens, the DREAM Act allows the CAL Grant program to consider the applications of undocumented residents.

[EFerrari]

93. Are you fucking kidding me?

They aren't depriving anyone of anything. The money is set aside for Caliornia RESIDENTS.

Something stinks to heaven, all right.

[blueamy66]

111. Guess you don't have a kid in college either.

What else could be done with that $40M?

[EFerrari]

118. So should my personal situation determine what I think about

public policy? That sounds exactly like the wingnuts who resent union workers for making a living wage they fought for.

But you have to be generous and forgive the State of California for spending money on the residents of California out of funds set aside for the residents of California from taxes paid by residents of California. :crazy:

[sudopod]

123. ^_^ nt

[Starry Messenger]

129. ((applause))

Thank you.

[blueamy66]

147. So you don't have a kid in college.

got it

[LeftyMom]

154. How many kids did you put through the CSU or UC systems?

I don't know where EFerrari's kid(s) went to school, but she went to Cal and she's a California resident and taxpayer, so she's got a hell of a lot more at stake here then you (ie more than nothing.)

[EFerrari]

160. My oldest just went back to the CSU system to become an EMT.

He finished the first round but still has more to do to get the credentials he wants.

I myself need one more year of grad school and am looking for some way to fund it in addition to Cal Grant which will not cover it. If you see any sugar daddies out there, point them my way. lol :)

[LeftyMom]

164. Cool. My baby sister graduated from CSUS with her teaching credential last year.

So I'll make you a deal, you know anybody who needs an elementary teacher let me know, and I promise to send any unattached sugar daddies your direction. ;)

[EFerrari]

165. Bless her heart! We need good teachers. You gotta deal.

:)

[blueamy66]

220. None.

nt

[EFerrari]

155. This really isn't about you, Amy. n/t

[treestar]

162. That's up to California

But they are not taking from anyone. They grew up here and were in school all along. They are just being treated equally. it is not a progressive value to want an advantage over people in such situations, especially if they are kids.

[treestar]

159. They shouldn't have to pay a fine or be punished

They did not do anything wrong. Their parents maybe, but not them.

[Drahthaardogs]

237. If they are illegal, then yes, they did do something wrong.

Whether intentional or unintentional, they are, by definition, ILLEGAL aliens. i.e. people who come to this country without going through the proper protocol. If they were born here, then they are NOT illegal aliens. They are first generation citizens and American citizens with the same rights as any other citizen. Law of the Soil mandates citizenship for those born here. I do not see how the Dream Act which is for illegal aliens would pertain to an American citizen.

[Claudia Jones]

170. why?

Why would any Democrat reach for that right wing solution to everything - punishment?

Immigrants, regardless of status, "give back" plenty and take very little.

What did they - children of immigrants - "take" that was "not rightfully theirs?" Nothing in the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights suggests that human rights are owned by anyone or have to be earned. Human rights rightfully belong to everyone, or there is no such thing as human rights.

[Luminous Animal]

180. Good post and welcome to DU!

[Claudia Jones]

209. thanks

Good to be here.

[Iggo]

216. Welcom to DU. And...

:applause:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. +1

[Upton]

16. Agreed..,.

this is akin to rewarding illegal immigration.

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. +!,00000 If I were in CA, I'd be outraged.

[Xithras]

86. I'm a California native, and I support it 100%. The rest of America should butt out.

California has always been a hispanic state (note the spanish names on all our major cities), and the population is booming here. Some are legal, and some aren't, but it's an indisputable fact that more than 50% of Californians under 18 are hispanic (for comparison, less than 25% are white). When two hispanic children grow up together, attend the same schools, get the same grades, and are accepted into the same universities, it's fundamentally wrong to deny ONE of them access to in-state aid simply because his parents committed a crime 17 years earlier.

These children are an integral part of our communities here in California. We're going to be dealing with them one way or the other, so we have a simple choice...we can help them be successful, or we can watch our communities suffer as they fail. Either way, there's a cost to society, but the cost is much lower when we help them succeed.

I have a MUCH BIGGER problem with the fact that the UC's are passing over California residents for out-of-state and international students, simply because they pay higher tuition rates. Those universities were built and are funded by California taxpayers to support California residents first. We should be educating every Dream-Act qualifying, illegal-resident, teenager in California before we allow UCLA to admit a single student from Texas, or Colorado, or Minnesota.

These people are an integral part of California culture, and their children are an integral part of our future. I can't think of a single good reason to deny them access to the same education that other California residents receive.

[Shagbark Hickory]

215. Jumping to conclusions. Nobody said jack about race or origin.

If this was people from India coming over to get the grants, yall would be shitting bricks.

[Luminous Animal]

231. Except noboy is "coming over" to get grants. The people who are eligible for these

grants are children who are educated in the California public school system and are residents of California.

[Shagbark Hickory]

239. Are the grants available exclusively to for children who are educated in CA public schools?

Or can anyone come over and get one?

[Xithras]

241. Close.

The grants are only available to students who are educated in California schools. There is no public/private distinction in the rules.

Citizen adult re-entry students still get preferential treatment over aliens. Our laws say that even non-California graduates can qualify after they have lived in the state a few years, if they have NOT been a college student (so out-of-state residents can't scam the grants during their final years, but claiming their first few years of education as "residency"). Illegal adult re-entry students will still be denied access to financial aid, no matter how long they have lived here. The Dream Act ONLY makes aid available to illegal residents who are transferring to college directly out of a California high school.

[LeftyMom]

156. But you live in Georgia. I'm in California and I'm delighted.

Clean Georgia up and then come tell us how to run our state.

[sudopod]

184. lol, winning! nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

214. Oh we're "cleaning up" allright.

Shutting down the neoslavery.

[Luminous Animal]

232. So Georgia is hiring U.S. citizens at minimum wage to replace their neoslaves? Hahahahahaha!!!

I suspect that without undocumented workers in the state of Georgia, there will be an explosion of prison labor who (just by chance) will have to pay for their prison "home" with contracted labor.

[Shagbark Hickory]

243. There is no job people won't do.

Only wages people won't work for.

If people aren't lining up to pick fruit in 100 degree heat for minimum wage, chances are it's the wage part. Improve conditions and wages and there will be fruit pickers, I guarantee it.

[treestar]

157. But this is about kids who grew up here

They are illegal due to their parents' actions. It is a decent thing to do to treat them equally, for having grown up here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. +1000 n/t

[Quantess]

4. The timing is questionable.

Isn''t California broke?

[customerserviceguy]

7. Yes, this is incredibly poor timing. n/t

[Johonny]

32. the state isn't any more broke than the usa

California just choses over and over to let the insanely rich pay little taxes.

The bill is a joke. California can't even pay for college of legal citizens. California needs to gvet its financial shit together, then worry about expanding spending. It will never get its tax system fixed so long citizens keep passing props that fix taxes abd prevent.legislatures from legislating.

[Llewlladdwr]

246. How does California intend to pay for this?

And how do y'all Californians feel about kids who accept the help and then leave the state after graduation?

[EFerrari]

6. Excellent. K&R

[pampango]

12. None too surprisingly "The vote (22-11) went along party lines."

The second half of the California DREAM Act — which would allow undocumented students access to state financial aid — passed the Senate today by a vote of 22 to 11. AB 131, authored by Assembly member Gil Cedillo, D-Los Angeles, will go back to the Assembly for a concurrence vote, the last hurdle before the bill could land on Gov. Jerry Brown’s desk.

The passage of the bill — which would give undocumented students access to state financial aid programs such as Cal Grants — comes a little over a month after the first part of the state’s DREAM act was signed into law by Brown. That bill authorized public higher education institutions to give financial aid to undocumented students from their own aid reserves.

The vote went along party lines. Ron Calderon, D-Montebello, supported the bill on the Senate floor, saying that having more educated, tax-paying professionals would only help the state’s economy. “(Undocumented students) should not have their future jeopardized by their illegal status,” he said. Doug LaMalfa, R-Butte, opposed the bill on the Senate floor, saying that the state should focus on taking care of its citizens during the current financial crisis isntead of giving aid undocumented students.

The bill also says that undocumented students would only be eligible for the competitive A and B type of Cal Grants if there are funds left over after all eligible California students have received their awards.

http://www.dailycal.org/2011/08/31/second-part-of-dream-act-passes-senate-vote

Existing law permits illegal immigrant students to qualify for in-state tuition as long as they graduated from a California high school after attending there for at least 3 years. This new bill would make them eligible for financial aid as well. It sounds like they would be at the back of the line for certain types of competitive financial aid.

[Obamanaut]

13. So a student entering college in Calif but who is a legal resident of

say, Arizona or Iowa, must pay out of state tuition while an illegal immigrant gets a lower in-state tuition rate.

"...Existing law permits illegal immigrant students to qualify for in-state tuition as long as they graduated from..."

Somehow, that just seems wrong. An Iowa or Arizona family does not break the law, and their kid is penalized financially, while the child of an illegal immigrant (who has successfully eluded the law) is rewarded with lower tuition. It's just wrong.

[pampango]

20. The interest of the state of California is served by educating residents of California.

That seems to be the intent of the law. The state is taking the position that it is better off with educated residents (legal or otherwise).

The law only offers in-state tuition or financial aid to illegal immigrant students who live in California (and have lived there long enough to qualify as state residents), not to those who live in Iowa, Arizona or any other state. Most (all?) states favor their residents in terms of tuition and financial aid since the states financially support public universities. States provide this support because of the belief that the more educated state residents are the better for everyone.

[Romulox]

22. LOL. Just *COINCIDENTALLY*, it's also in the interest of the agro-business

for its workers (and many of these ARE children) to receive MASSIVE state subsidies.

[pampango]

26. LOL, if it was in their interest, my guess is at least one republican would have voted for it.

Unless they are the new STALWART protectors of American labor, not industry. (I love capitalizing adjectives, don't you :) )

You'll also have to explain how making it easier for these students to go to college makes them more exploitable by agri-business, not less. One would think that keeping them as uneducated as possible would make it easier for agri-business to exploit them.

Is the Alabama approach to higher education for illegal immigrants preferable or something in between. "The new law requires police to check the immigration status of those they stop, bars undocumented immigrants from receiving public benefits or even enrolling in state colleges, and makes it a crime to give a ride to an illegal immigrant."

:hi:

[Romulox]

27. What makes you think that California Dems don't take money from Agri-business?

"Unless they are the new STALWART protectors of American labor, not industry. "

I don't see much in the way of advocacy for workers from California legislators, regardless of party.

"You'll also have to explain how making it easier for these students to go to college makes them more exploitable by agri-business, not less."

Duh. It allows these children's PARENTS to subside on below-living-wages that are paid by California's exploitative agri-business sector. In many cases, the workers themselves are children. :hi:

[pampango]

85. And California republicans don't? Democrats vote big business, but not repubs?

"I don't see much in the way of advocacy for workers from California legislators, regardless of party." There were 11 republicans in the California senate who voted to protect American workers by your reasoning. While they didn't prevail, you have to give them credit for advocating on behalf of workers, don't you?

Again, is the Alabama approach to higher education for illegal immigrants preferable or something in between? "The new law requires police to check the immigration status of those they stop, bars undocumented immigrants from receiving public benefits or even enrolling in state colleges, and makes it a crime to give a ride to an illegal immigrant." It's obvious what policy you are against. What policy do you prefer with respect to higher education for illegal immigrant students?

"It allows these children's PARENTS to subside on below-living-wages that are paid by California's exploitative agri-business sector." And if eliminating the in-state tuition causes these children to not attend college, won't they then join their parents in the field and add to the number of exploited workers? Or is the subsidy such a matter of principle that it doesn't matter that the republican (those 11 senators voted with the GOP in Arizona, Alabama, South Carolina) solution just makes the problem of exploited workers worse?

[Romulox]

101. That's just it. As you yourself prove, Cheap Labor is advocated by most "third way" Dems.

So arguing that Dems support it proves nothing. "Dems" support NAFTA and job obliterating "free trade" on one hand, and unprovoked "humanitarian" wars, on the other. Just like George W. Bush, for example. So I guess smear-by-association works every-which-way! :hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

31. Please provide documented proof that

"many of these ARE children." Thanks in advance.

[Romulox]

34. "about 400,000 children today work in American fields, performing backbreaking labor up to 12 to 14"

The Child Labor Exception…Farm Workers
Tuesday, August 09, 2011
It is commonly assumed in the United States that federal law prevents children from working like adults. For the most part this is true. But not when it comes to farming.

Ever since the Great Depression when the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was adopted, requiring children to be at least 14 years of age to work outside the home, the agricultural industry has been exempted from this restriction. The result of this legal loophole is that about 400,000 children today work in American fields, performing backbreaking labor up to 12 to 14 hours a day, being exposed to toxic chemicals and earning below minimum wage.

Democrat Lucille Roybal-Allard of California wants to end this practice. The congresswoman has introduced the CARE Act (Children's Act for Responsible Employment), which would raise the minimum age for farm workers to 14 and strengthen other laws to bring them more in line with other industries. First introduced in 2009, the bill has gained more than 100 co-sponsors.

http://www.allgov.com/Controversies/ViewNews/The_Child_Labor_Exception__Farm_Workers_110809

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/albie-hecht/child-labor-farms_b_919549.html

http://www.shineglobal.org/index.php/eva-longoria-and-congresswoman-lucille-roybal-allard-introduce-care-act-to-protect-child-farmworkers-in-the-us/

:hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

35. I'm sorry, I don't see the actual links

to the 400,000 figure. Do you have that one? Thanks is advance.

[Romulox]

36. Um, give it up. I provided the info. you asked for.

Do your own homework. :hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

39. Actually, you provided links to articles

alluding to the 400,000 figure but none of those links were to the original study. I actually did go on a search myself to find the origin of the figure, and maybe I did not use the correct search strings, but I was unable to locate the source. Since you were the first to post the 400,000 figure I assumed you would have the link to the actual study.

[Romulox]

40. LOL. You were trying to insinuate that Child Labor isn't a problem in California. It is.

:hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

42. Was I?

Perhaps you can post a link to where I made that assertion. I merely asked you to back up what you posted. Not an unusual request on DU.

[Romulox]

45. Waste of time.

Frankly, if you want to assert that child labor isn't an issue in California, the onus is now on YOU. :hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

47. It's a simple request

You introduced the 400,000 figure and I simply asked to see the source. You linked me to articles alluding the the 400,000 figure but have not provided me the link to the actual study. I've asserted nothing and I certainly don't think I've "snarked" at you. As a matter of fact, I thought I was being pretty polite. I have merely asked for a link to the actual study. For some reason you seem to be reluctant. I do not purport to know the reason why.

Edited to match the editing of the previous post.

[Romulox]

54. As was mine, that you do your own homework. nt

[Le Taz Hot]

55. I've explained that once already.

Frankly, I think I've proven my point here. Have a great day. :hi:

[Romulox]

57. There are two sorts of problems in the world:

1) Romulox's problems, and
2) Everything else.

Your whims and desires fall under number 2). In any event, I am sure you are satisfied with the degree to which you have derailed discussion of child labor in California.

[Le Taz Hot]

60. "derailed discussion of child labor in California"

Dayem, am I that powerful? Who knew? :shrug:

Well, hell, NOW I'm gonna need minions! :evilgrin:

[Romulox]

65. Third hit on google reveals the source of my numbers, btw.

I guess your Googling is as weak as your rhetoric?

http://afop.org/

PS: All those pix of kids in the field on that site? PHOTOSHOPPED! :hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

75. Are you serious?

It's another link to another article that references the number but not the study itself. Is it possible you are unaware of the difference between an article referencing the study and the actual study itself? I'm not sure where you get your "photoshopped" accusation but it's extraneous and a waste of everyone's time.

[Romulox]

81. Not a THING in google.

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. Ideally, it'd be reserved for residents who aren't in peril of deportation.

From a pragmatic standpoint, there's little benefit in educating a teacher who can't teach in this country.

[EFerrari]

230. Obama has tweaked his immigration policy

and is having them review 300,000 cases. The implication is that DreamAct eligible young people will not be deported. Let's see if he means it.

[roody]

23. You could consider it rewarding their parents

for working for substandard wages, supporting agriculture and tourism in California, and boosting Ca.'s economy.

[Romulox]

24. Or *SUBSIDIZING THEIR EMPLOYERS* with state money.

Normally, industries must pay their workers a living wage, or else they won't have workers. California's agriculture industry has found a way around this!

[Obamanaut]

25. Or a reward for the parents having successfully eluded capture by

the immigration authorities. Crime does pay!

[blueamy66]

46. If the CA govt knows that they are giving our tax dollars

to children of illegal aliens, why don't they spend that $ on deporting the illegals instead of rewarding their children?

How does one "know" who is an illegal child without knowing who is the "illegal" parent?

[petronius]

125. States don't spend any money on deportation, right? The federal government does

And I'd much rather see money go into the education system through any route, than be used to fund enforcement actions that provide no benefit to California...

[Starry Messenger]

142. It's not *your* tax dollars.

Nice post Jan Brewer.

[roody]

197. That crime does not pay much---$8.00 per hour.

[Starry Messenger]

29. +1000

[ZombieHorde]

61. Laws and countries are just abstract constructs. They only exists in our imagination,

like the rules to Monopoly. People and communities are real. Ethics should serve real things over imaginary things.

[sudopod]

185. You so crazy

awesome!

+5 and resistance to divine magic to you!

[RocketTuna]

84. Don't allow yourself to be distracted

The problem is having State-based funding for universities, which allows them to be starved by radical and neglectful state legislatures and are then forced to make it up on the backs of out-of-state students.

Out-of-State students who elect to attend an out-of-state school, for that matter.

The higher education system as it stands is unfair for everybody but the wealthy. All this particular provision does is cut out the punitive withholding of available aid to kids who qualify and have something to offer the schools that have accepted them, thanks to circumstances they have no control over.

The real question is, why is anybody paying such a high price for a college education? It's not because our government is broke, it's because our government is pissing the money away occupying foreign countries and subsidizing energy companies.

[lumberjack_jeff]

169. I'm sure those undocumented students will vote for democrats.

Oh, wait.

[Pooka Fey]

18. 1 year UC Davis Resident Tuition: $15,123 Non Resident Tuition $38,001

This is a bad idea. The criteria is having attended and graduated from a California high school - between 1 and 4 years of illegal residence in California.

If you are an American from out of state, you pay more than double. I can't support this, it's unfair to Americans from out of state, and it's unfair to California because the state is in a serious financial trouble.

Flame away, if you must.

[Bill McBlueState]

38. "it's unfair to Americans from out of state"

I don't think the California system of higher education has ever had a stated mission to educate the residents of other states. If people want in-state tuition at a California university, they can move there and start paying taxes.

[Shagbark Hickory]

52. Except they'd have to be documented to pay taxes, wouldn't they?

[Luminous Animal]

82. No. Most undocumented workers have fake papers and pay taxes.

[Shagbark Hickory]

83. I'm not buying it.

But regardless, working and paying taxes is not a requirement of the grants.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

87. You have worked with many illegals, have you?

I currently work with a whole bunch. They all have SS numbers (borrowed/paid for) and they all pay taxes, including SS taxes they will never personally benefit from.

[Shagbark Hickory]

91. Do they get paid at least minimum wage then?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

134. If they are working at a job that requires a SS card --

to be employed then yes, they are making minimum wage, if not better. The folks I work with make $15.00 an hour -- $4 over the SF minimum wage. They also get benefits.

Not all undocumented workers work in fields or alongside the highway as day laborors.

[Shagbark Hickory]

254. Right but my concern is with the workers that do. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

105. Please don't call people illegals. I believe the term dehumanizes people.

1st of all, it is not even a word.

2nd, it is not accurate terminology. The federal government uses "undocumented worker" or "undocumented immigrant".

3rd, the term criminalizes the person rather than the act. (Do we call murderers "illegals"). Furthermore, the act of residing in the U.S. without documentation is not even a criminal offense but rather a civil offense.

[Lance_Boyle]

113. The Federal Government, and people without an underlying amnesty agenda, use 'illegal alien'

which is the proper and accepted term for a person residing in this country illegally.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

136. My apologies -- I agree.

I normally use undocumented worker, I just got overly excited when responding. :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

139. Thank you!

[EFerrari]

96. No but RESIDENCY is, which means you and or your family pay taxes

whether you buy it or not. And ask anyone who has live through it what happens to a local economy when the xenophobes drive undocumented workers out.

[Luminous Animal]

72. The DREAM Act wouldn't affect tuition at all. The act addresses access to grant

money that is available to California RESIDENTS only.

[Pooka Fey]

92. My bad. CA ALREADY grants In-State tuition to illegal immigrants who went to CA high schools.

[bluestate10]

221. Out of state students can choose to go to school in their state.

Nothing is unfair to them, they have a choice. California's business is that state's business. It does what it wants with tuition.

[Starry Messenger]

19. k&r

[Romulox]

21. WIth the state coffers flush and every child in Ca. receiving a top notch education,

this is the RIGHT TIME to begin massive new outlays of cash for illegal aliens.

Oh. Right. California is broke as a joke, and will no doubt expect the Federal Government to pick up this tab.

[bluestate10]

222. Rightwing hate text. Not surprisingly, from an avid Obama basher to boot. nt

[Shagbark Hickory]

30. I guess now would be a good time to become a citizen of canada then move to CA for the free educatio

Gotta know how to work the system!

[Bill McBlueState]

41. or just move to California and avoid Canada's complex path to citizenship

Citizenship is irrelevant; that's the point.

And nobody's talking about free anything here.

[Shagbark Hickory]

43. But then you'd be a legal citizen and therefore not qualify. And why do you say...

Canada's "complex path to citizenship"???
Is buying real estate and claiming to live there for 6 months or more a year that complex?

[Bill McBlueState]

48. sorry, I don't see anything

in the article about any funding that is available *only* to citizens of other countries. The bill appears to make students of any citizenship eligible for certain funds. So becoming a citizen of Canada wouldn't do anything for you.

[Shagbark Hickory]

50. Do you see anything that explicitly includes legal citizens?

It's been a long time but from what I recall in my college days you could get a grant or a scholarship.
If you so much as couldn't even prove you lived in the state, you paid much higher tuition and many colleges supposedly gave preferential treatment to locals for admissions.

[LeftyMom]

166. As a legal citizen you'd actually be farther ahead in the queue. RTFA. nt

[Romulox]

53. Besides, why should anyone respect "Canada's complex path to citizenship"???

:hi:

[EFerrari]

94. The aid made accessible will not cover the whole nut

so I'd wait on that until you can find a job or two and get some help from your family.

[Lance_Boyle]

33. This is beyond stupid.

The State is broke, so they decide to offer some shiny new bennies to people who aren't even supposed to be there? Asinine.

[pintobean]

51. Ever wonder what happened

to all the people who graduated at the bottom of their class?

[EFerrari]

95. Wrong. The Cal Grant fund has the money and our schools need it.

It's a win all the way around.

[Romulox]

59. "about 400,000 children today work in American fields, performing backbreaking labor up to 12 to 14"

Because an attempt was made to bury this info:

The Child Labor Exception…Farm Workers
Tuesday, August 09, 2011
It is commonly assumed in the United States that federal law prevents children from working like adults. For the most part this is true. But not when it comes to farming.

Ever since the Great Depression when the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 was adopted, requiring children to be at least 14 years of age to work outside the home, the agricultural industry has been exempted from this restriction. The result of this legal loophole is that about 400,000 children today work in American fields, performing backbreaking labor up to 12 to 14 hours a day, being exposed to toxic chemicals and earning below minimum wage.

Democrat Lucille Roybal-Allard of California wants to end this practice. The congresswoman has introduced the CARE Act (Children's Act for Responsible Employment), which would raise the minimum age for farm workers to 14 and strengthen other laws to bring them more in line with other industries. First introduced in 2009, the bill has gained more than 100 co-sponsors.

http://www.allgov.com/Controversies/ViewNews/The_Child_Labor_Exception__Farm_Workers_110809

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/albie-hecht/child-labor-farms_b_919549.html

http://www.shineglobal.org/index.php/eva-longoria-and-congresswoman-lucille-roybal-allard-introduce-care-act-to-protect-child-farmworkers-in-the-us/

:hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

64. Link to the study?

:hi:

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

102. Multiple links were provided. This poster disappeared. nt

[Romulox]

77. "Death of Two 14-Year-Old Girls in an Illinois Field Underscores the Need for an Overhaul of U.S. "

"Death of Two 14-Year-Old Girls in an Illinois Field Underscores the Need for an Overhaul of U.S. Child Labor Laws"

http://afop.org/2011/08/01/death-of-two-14-year-old-girls-in-an-illinois-field-underscores-the-need-for-an-overhaul-of-u-s-child-labor-laws/

[Romulox]

79. "National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) estimate that about 9 percent"

"National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) estimate that about 9 percent of directly hired farmworkers were under age 18 in 2006"

http://www.hrw.org/node/90125/section/6

[Romulox]

80. Human Rights Watch: "conservative estimates make clear that hundreds of thousands of children"

"Despite the scarcity of data, conservative estimates make clear that hundreds of thousands of children are working as hired laborers in agriculture, making up a significant proportion of the country’s estimated 2.3 million employed workers who are below age 18."

http://www.hrw.org/node/90125/section/6

[Hell Hath No Fury]

89. I am a Californian and I am very happy this is passing.

Undocumented workers help make California run, plain and simple. They are of many colors and countries -- not just "Mexicans". They pick our crops, they wait our tables, they build our houses, and they take care of our elderly, to name just a few. They pay into our local, State, and Federal tax systems -- in the case of SS they are paying into a system they themselves will never benefit from.

I believe educating their children is a very worthy effort -- I want these children to be an asset to our State, just like their parents.

[Shagbark Hickory]

90. It's slavery if you ask me.

There's no job people won't do.

Only wages people won't work for.

[Lucian]

107. And yet a lot of citizens can't afford to go.

I don't know how I feel about this. I'm conflicted. On one hand, I'm glad illegal children could get an education, but on the other the government can't even fund a lot of its own citizens to go.

[EFerrari]

119. That happens to be untrue. The Cal Grant fund is open to all residents of the state. n/t

[Lucian]

121. Oh. Well then.

The wording of the headline is what threw me off.

Thank you for the info. I should probably research this before commenting on things I don't know much about.

I like this then.

[EFerrari]

122. I was just noticing that the headline makes it sound like

undocumented kids will be getting a special free ride. That isn't the case. They'll just join the pool of kids eligible for this grant and maybe be able to apply for other kinds of state aid. No funds that I know of have been allocated only for them and of course, the aid now available won't pay for their whole need.

[sudopod]

124. It's upsetting to me that the idea of universally available grants for state colleges

would seem so honestly...alien to our countryfolks.

[EFerrari]

133. I know. I put myself through Cal and actually had to drop out

in my last year of grad school because of money. And that's before tuition went conpletely insane.

[neoconn]

116. I live in Cali.

And do not agree. Call me what you like but I for one had to pay for my own education and still paying for it now!!!

[EFerrari]

120. Did you apply for the Cal Grant?

[LibDemAlways]

126. I have a daughter entering the UC system this fall and I did not

apply for a Cal Grant - even though my husband was unemployed for six months last year and finally took a job at a 40% pay cut. The reason I chose not to apply for the grant was that we have the money for our daughter's education set aside in a savings account that we established 18 years ago. I still firmly believe that Cal Grants should go to legal residents who qualify for them. The state of California should not be in the business of subsidizing the education of those who are here illegally.

[sudopod]

127. "the reason I chose not to apply for the grant was that we have the money for our daughter's

education set aside in a savings account that we established 18 years ago."


Wut?

[LibDemAlways]

167. We set aside money every paycheck for the last 18 years

so that we could afford to send our daughter to college. It took a lot of scrimping, but the money is there for her to use. It's now up to her to use it wisely.

[sudopod]

181. Why not let her apply for the grant? O_o nt

[EFerrari]

130. With costs as they are right now, you may want to rethink that.

And punishing the next generation for a status they had no control over seems like lunacy to me. It benefits no one and disregards the revenue these families put in CA coffers.

[LibDemAlways]

172. I disagree. If I went to live in another country and was there without

proper documentation, I wouldn't expect the taxpayers of that country to pay for my child's college education. Period.

[EFerrari]

173. I don't know how to break this to you but undocumented families pay taxes

to the State of California. There is no reason beyond simple xenophobia to disallow their children from having the same access to Cal Grants that all other CA residents have.

[LibDemAlways]

176. I realize they pay taxes. And please don't call me xenophobic. You

don't know me.

[EFerrari]

179. It's their own money. There is no rational argument to exclude them. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

145. THIS DOES NOT IMPACT DOCUMENTED RESIDENTS' ACCESS TO CAL GRANTS IN ANY WAY.

The Cal Grant funds will be available to undocumented residents only AFTER all qualified documented residents receive theirs.

That is, your daughter's application would have been considered before an undocumented resident's was even looked at.

By not applying because you could afford the tuition, freed up funds: 1st, for a documented resident; and 2nd, an undocumented one.

[LibDemAlways]

174. I understand your point. I just don't agree with it. As I posted above,

I would not expect the government of a foreign country in which I was residing without proper documentation to pay for my child's college education.

And, yes, I have the money to be able to "afford" it. But only through significant personal sacrifice. Every one of my daughter's college dollars was hard-earned.

I guarantee there is likely to be a huge uproar over this.

[Luminous Animal]

177. I have no clue what your hard-earned savings have to do with the topic at hand...

Are you implying that those who qualify didn't work hard or sacrifice?

Personally, I believe that there will be some uproar... mostly from teabagger types.

[LibDemAlways]

205. My hard-earned savings have everything to do with the topic at hand. I

have played by the rules all my life. Worked my way through college. Saved diligently so that my daughter wouldn't have to. Have paid many thousands of those same hard-earned dollars in taxes for the common good of all citizens.

People who flaunt immigration laws by coming here illegally should not be rewarded with government funds for college. Period.

[Luminous Animal]

210. There are millions of people who play by the rules and work hard all of their lives.

And (harrumph!), I've paid many thousands of dollars for the common good of all people who live here. So my thousands of hard-earned dollars cred negates your thousands of hard-earned dollars cred.

(For what it is worth, I heard similar arguments decades ago from people who did not want "those people" going to schools that they supported with their property taxes.)

Little by little, the children of undocumented workers are being seen for what they are... human beings that are part of the California experience. They live here, they go to school here, they have family here (yes, most undocumented residence have documented family members). and they have friends here. Many have difficulty communicating fluently in their mother tongue.

[Lyric]

117. Considering that undocumented workers have contributed greatly

to our tax and Social Security funds, with little hope or expectation of getting anything in return for the money they contributed, I'd say that this sounds fair.

[Throd]

128. Good thing we have a tremendous budget surplus in Sacramento.

[EFerrari]

132. It would be much more cost effective to create a class of hopeless teenagers

to staff our street gangs.

[Throd]

135. We got those in spades anyway.

[EFerrari]

138. Then denying them fresh recruits should be a no-brainer. n/t

[Throd]

140. Yes, because criminal gang activity is the only other possible option.

Let's not waste each other's time. You want to roll out the red carpet in every possible way for undocumented immigrants from Latin America. Me, not so much.

[EFerrari]

144. Dealing with the reality that these kids are here

and that this is the only home they have ever known is not rolling out any red carpet.

But take heart, immigration is at a 60 year low.

[blueamy66]

149. legal immigration?

or illegal?

[EFerrari]

150. It's not every day I get to meet a law and order Democrat.

All immigration.

[blueamy66]

218. so you're okay with illegal immigration?

and you want your tax dollars to support illegal immigration?

just asking....

oh, and can you help with my stepson's university tuition...please???

[EFerrari]

225. I have no problem with CA residents benefiting from their own money.

You apparently do. :)

[CreekDog]

228. do you actually want to help your stepson?

it's a fair question to ask of you before you ask it of someone else.

[blueamy66]

248. Um, I'd rather help my bank account

nt

[Starry Messenger]

229. I would rather all of our tax dollars go to every single person here

undocumented then pour it down the rathole wars we are in. What is it up to now, five wars? Educating the youth of CA is a drop in the bucket compared to 10 years of filthy illegal wars. In Iraq WE are the "illegals" and it's costing US money to be there. Maybe a tough look at your priorities is in order if you'd like to fit in on a liberal board. Practice makes perfect.

[flvegan]

234. Vomit fountain.

I'm posting random words tonight.

[blueamy66]

249. pepto bismol

nt

[CreekDog]

238. you see children as a burden

just an observation.

perhaps you don't plan to collect social security or use Medicare. :eyes:

[blueamy66]

250. what does that have to do with children?

yeah, they are a burden...that is why I CHOSE to not have any

next question

[Starry Messenger]

131. Wow. So nice people suddenly decide they care about

what we decide to do with our tax money here in CA. It's a small price to pay for basically stealing half of Mexico in the 19th Century.

[Zax2me]

158. Don't see how a college fund for anyone can be a bad thing.

but, guess not everyone thinks that way.

[ecstatic]

183. While I would never begrudge anyone an education, I think the backlash

might be so severe that it virtually eliminates the benefits. I think some people would become physically violent. We see the way some people have become bitter with regard to unions.

Anyway, I think it's sick that some states (like Georgia) won't even let "illegal" students attend college, much less get public grants.

[Luminous Animal]

186. So what? Do we capitulate to ignorance and meanness? Or do we do the right thing.

For what it is worth, I expect a small amount of backlash that will go quietly away.

[Warren DeMontague]

192. pffft

this is a right wing, FOX News wet dream in action. Expect to hear a lot more about it.

[Luminous Animal]

196. Currently, Rick Perry is being challenged for supporting Texas's 2001 version of the DREAM Act.

He defends his support (and Texas seems to have survived the last decade).

I've seen several posts on FR in support merely because Perry supports it.

[EFerrari]

187. That's okay. The Feds had to go into Old Miss, too. So what?

We can never cave in to the throwbacks.

[ecstatic]

188. True, but if it passes and the teabaggers win next year

None of us can begin to imagine the draconian measures that will be put in place nationwide as a result of the backlash.

[EFerrari]

190. Well, you're right. I put nothing past them. n/t

[Luminous Animal]

191. If Texas (with Rick Perry's support) can do it, so can California.

[Luminous Animal]

194. If the teabaggers win next year, they won't need to have any kind of excuse to

introduce draconian measures. With or without the DREAM Act (here or in Texas - which passed a similar act a decade ago), there will be no shortage of draconian measures dreamed up.

[Warren DeMontague]

193. How are they gonna pay for that AND those $1M/hr DEA anti-pot helicopters?

not to mention all the prison cells for the cancer grannies caught with weed.


I must have missed a memo about a budget surplus.

[roody]

200. selling pot

[Warren DeMontague]

202. That would actually make sense.

I'd much rather see college be free for all than have the largest prison population per capita in the world.

[Luminous Animal]

201. This has ZERO impact on the budget. It is using surplus funds for a budget item

You definitely missed more than a memo. Although, there are those well versed in anti-immigrant memes!

[Warren DeMontague]

204. which 'anti-immigrant memes' would those be?

seriously. I haven't said anything even remotely 'anti-immigrant'; back up your claim.

[Luminous Animal]

206. Actually, the sentence was supposed to read... there are those well-versed blah blah blah..

sorry. I'll change it now.

[Warren DeMontague]

195. anyone who doesn't get the potential of this to piss off voters

is living in a fucking bubble.

[EFerrari]

198. You mean all those dumb clucks that accidentally voted for Jerry Brown?

That bubble?

lol

[Warren DeMontague]

199. Lady, I voted for Jerry Brown the 1st time around, even.

All I'm saying is, the timing seems bad.

[EFerrari]

211. Most people really are hurting. That's the truth.

But most people won't even notice until the tea klan makes a big deal out of it and thankfully, Brown and CA Dems are much better at messaging than the national Democrats.

I think I voted for Brown in my first election, too.

[Luminous Animal]

203. The 2012 Dem. platform is going to be short & sweet.

"Don't do anything to annoy the teabaggers"

[LibDemAlways]

208. Checked the LA Times opinion blog today. People are getting

worked up about this. It's going to piss people off bigtime.

[Luminous Animal]

212. Link please.

[EFerrari]

213. Mostly the right wingnuts who can't understand taxpayers

accessing their own funds. That's all right. They don't decide elections in this state.

[Luminous Animal]

233. I searched the LA Times site. I couldn't find any article or blog that had more that 13 comments

about this.

That is why I asked for a link.

[Xithras]

242. People in Orange County have internet access.

Yeah, we have a bunch of loud and annoying right wingers in this state, but they're an electoral minority and will stay that way forever.

I have yet to actually meet a California resident DEMOCRAT who has an objection to educating CHILDREN who were raised in this state and attended California elementary and high schools.

[amborin]

207. California sends undocumented young adults to die in Iraq:

http://projects.latimes.com/wardead/name/jose-gutierrez/

[bluestate10]

223. Amazing.

Posters that rant on about tax the rich and Obama is a weak warmonger are posting stuff that rightwingers would be proud to own. What would a TRUE progressive say?

[EFerrari]

224. If you consult one, maybe you can report back here. n/t

[Bryn]

235. K&R

I support it. Way to go, California!

[Luminous Animal]

236. It is kind of embarassing that California has lagged behind Texas on this issue.

[Taitertots]

245. The government creates a bullshit problem, and then uses it to justify a bullshit solution

Why don't we just give citizenship to people who smart, educated, dedicated, and want to come to America? Then there is no need to take money from Americans to pay for non-Americans going to college.

[EFerrari]

247. Undocumented families pay taxes in California,

no one is taking money from 'Muricans.