"Firemen are grossly overpaid"

[titaniumsalute]

I was sitting in a small coffee shop last night near my house when I heard some asshole ranting and raving about government and spending. He decided to tee-off on firemen and EMT. He was telling this other person how all the firemen and EMT just sit around most of their shift eating, sleeping and watching TV. He said that they need to have some serious pay cuts as some make $60k to $70K and have the best benefits in the country.

After I sucked down my coffee I was heading toward the door. I stopped, turned around, and said "Gee I hope they continue to sit around doing nothing when your house is on fire." He just looked at me and I walked out.

I was really fucking furious. My wife is a teacher and I hear teacher bashing constantly which irritates me to no end. But these guys risk their fucking lives to run into a burning house or building to save lives. What is that worth?

[Brickbat]

1. I always ask them why the hell they don't pick up a gig like that, if it's so cushy.

[titaniumsalute]

2. He was an old, fat man

[Brickbat]

8. I ask them anyway. It's even better when the answer is obvious.

[RamboLiberal]

52. And what about the EMTs who will have to lug his fat butt?

On a stretcher when he calls 911. I hate these kind of smug AHoles!

[trueblue2007]

62. OLD - FAT MAN? good, he will have lots of sfuff in his house TO BURN!!!!

LOTS OF FOOD STUFF, LOTS OF FAT CLOTHING.... BIG OLD COUCH. Burn, baby burn!

[Crunchy Frog]

111. He will be hard as hell for the EMTs to drag his fat ass out of his house

when he has a heart attack and needs to be rushed to the hospital. They'll certainly be earning their salaries with that one.

Oh, and if they don't manage to get him out of his burning house, fat is a very good fuel.

[hobbit709]

3. That's because they couldn't qualify on physical, mental and psychological grounds.

That's the point of ANY Emergency Response. To be ready when necessary.

[brewens]

4. We had some crank rat on some of our guys playing tennis.

The had their fire engine parked at the tennis court and were out their playing. I thought no harm, no foul. That crew was just as ready to respond as if they had the truck parked at the station two blocks away. They are supposed to stay in shape and you frequently see them jogging around the area. I think if it's more fun to play tennis, why not?

[Turbineguy]

19. Playing tennis?

You mean they with indulging in physical exercise? When they should have been eating chips and drinking beer? SOCIALISTS!!!!

[w0nderer]

27. we have gotten complaints

when they are in our store, asking for advice (bike store)
on mountainbikes or setting up race bikes for centuries (100 mile bike rides)
or asking about hydration (kinda funny having firefighters ask us, i just refer back to EMT's)

and someone complains they aren't 'on the job'

look if you are asking me stuff about something to keep you fit
with the radio rig ON, and i can see your eyes 'de focus' every time a message comes over
i can't see a single reason for you not to be there and many for you to be there


it's like calling a mom a bad mom because she's not sitting by the crib the whole time
if she's carrying a baby monitor, paying attention to it, and responding to it and checking in on the baby every now and again?
she is doing her job

how hard can it be for some people to understand these things?

[SemperEadem]

132. it's the usual managment mentality

if a worker has completed their work and they're sitting around, then they need to be given busy work just so the boss can continue micromanaging. If I complete my tasks in a timely and correct fashion and I happen to be able to free my time up, then the only thing you need to be worried about is "was what you needed there when you needed it? If so, sit down and stfu." Only bad, micromanaging idiot managers resort to bullying and busywork.

[w0nderer]

150. +1 n/t

[demwing]

174. That's hardly fair

demonising managers based on your worst case scenario.

The truth is that if you have emplyees with lots of down time, and the are NOT on call workers, then you have A)Too many employees staffed at that time, B)A poor division of workload, or C) opportunity for training

You can send some home, give them additional duties as needed, or teach them new skills Just because the work isn't your standard fare, it does not mean that it is "busy work" or that getting assigned such additional duties makes your manager an idiot or a bully.

[sweetapogee]

146. people will complain

People complain about us doing things like this or stopping for ice cream and we are all volunteer labor. The persons that are hardest to please are those from Phili that wreck on the turnpike. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked for my badge number (to complain I presume) because they felt we took too long to respond at 02:00 and 12 miles from the interchange. Still, we give them professional service regardless.

[madokie]

71. Firemen, EMT's and Policemen have free reign around me

What ever it takes to keep up the good work is fine with me

[Rambis]

5. It was attorneys that was ok? but now it is teachers, firemen, police

state employees all those parasites that collect paychecks. I am still waiting for my retired, state employee, medicare, pensioner republican friend's dad to answer the question I posed to him three years ago.... "As a working man what has the republican party ever done for you?"

[Historic NY]

10. You win the chicken dinner.............!!!!

They can never give you an answer to that one.

[Booster]

15. I've asked that question of all my Republican friends and have

never had a response. Then I ask why in the world do you support these assholes and never get an answer to that either.

[Rambis]

21. No one wants to verbalize they are a racist, jingoistic, homophobe

all I can figure out:shrug:

[saras]

80. That's not it. Really. Those are acts they'll play to cover it up.

What it really is, is that they don't like admitting that they LIKE TO BE SUBMISSIVE. They like to be told what to do, and part of the thrill is that what you are told to do is wrong and humiliating. So to them it doesn't matter exactly what the results of Republican policies are, just that they're degrading to submit to.

[nxylas]

22. Protected him from gay Muslim abortionists who want to burn his Bible?

That's the usual answer: fear, fear, fear.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

43. They act like none of those people work.

Those people not only work their asses off, the firemen and police men put their lives on the line and they earn that paycheck every day. Teachers have to put up with not only the snot nosed bratty children of those people who bitch constantly, but they have to spend a hell of a lot of their own paycheck just to DO that job, and they don't get reimbursed for ANY OF IT! This is the only job where we ask people to spend their own money and expect them to do it without wanting reimbursement. And then people bitch when they get time off or paid at all for that matter! It is infuriating!

[Rambis]

51. Amen (nm)

[tclambert]

58. And don't criticize Wall Street bankers or executives who get multi-million dollar bonuses

while wrecking their companies and the economy. Those people work hard. They need long lunches and 18 holes at the country club to keep in shape for the next time they have to attend a meeting in person.

Next time you need to be carried out of a burning building, call a CEO.

[JVS]

6. "and have the best benefits in the country"

It's kind of hard getting people to run into a burning building if they don't have good health insurance.

[eilen]

7. There was an article in our paper recently

about the fireman's union agreeing to take some cuts etc to help the city. The comments were similar to that man you overheard. I came home and told my mother that I think they should place their screennames on their mailboxes so the firemen know who's house to ignore.

My father and uncles were all volunteer firemen. I have one uncle who has devoted his life to his local fire department. He is older now in his 60's and still does dispatch. That fire dept. would not be what it is today without him. He has donated gallons of blood, raised money for good causes and has held many positions of high responsibility. The fire dept. is an asset to the community. They not only save lives in crisis but they also work on prevention, and safety education. Their training and equipment is very expensive.

I can hardly endure what passes for discourse these days, the kvetching. These men risk their lives every day. I see the EMTs at work and you know-- these firehouses and ambulance companies are hurting for volunteers. There is a reason why volunteer depts convert to paid depts-- no one wants to volunteer for them.

[gateley]

9. "...they should place their screennames on their mailboxes..."

:rofl: :thumbsup:

[Historic NY]

12. +1

[1776Forever]

14. Yes these people, fireman EMTs, are exemplary citizens who devote their lives to others!

How much is a life worth? Let it be their sons or daughters, mother or father, friend or yourself who needs help and then ask them how much is is worth to have that lifeline there? It is priceless! Thank you!

[sweetapogee]

147. you are so correct

The amount of personal/family sacrifice involved in the vol fire service is beyond amazing. It's something in the genetic makeup though, we do it because that is what we do. But to be honest, I do this for me, not for anyone else. Sure it is nice when someone takes the time to thank us for our efforts but if that was what we worked for we would starve to death.

[Mr Deltoid]

11. First they went after the Unions

Then they went after pensions
Now they are going after wages
What next?

[socialist_n_TN]

90. You know what next.......

Total control over all of the peon's lives. It's called capitalism my friend. Capitalism.

Welcome to DU. :)

[DirkGently]

13. Perhaps the gentleman would like to try a private fire / rescue service. See what that costs.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Just watch "Gangs of New York" to see how that works.

There's a fine example of limited government and unregulated capitalism.

[w0nderer]

40. nine one one dollar what's your emergency

we have to inform you that this call may be monitored for quality assurance
and that the call is being charged at $9.99 a minute
at this moment all our operators are busy taking calls
we want you to know that we appreciate your business
and will get to you as soon as we can
the current wait is .......................15 minutes

:sarcasm:

[DirkGently]

82. Seems where we're headed, as fire / police service are the Dreaded Socialism.

[w0nderer]

85. sadly

much of my sarcasm seems prophetic

i pull the current ideas to their absurd extensions in the hope of a laugh or provocation of thought and discussion
yet people keep dragging them there...for real and living in that

side note:
love the 'handle'/name
Svlad rocks!

[PADemD]

126. +1,000,000

[madrchsod]

16. my local firemen make good union wages but...

they have to pay close to 100 dollars a month for each dependent. his wife works as a sub teacher just to pay for her and their 3 kids insurance. she works at temp factory jobs in the summer.

[southernyankeebelle]

17. Thats the problem, they are all capitalist until they need a benefit of the government in some

way then they became a bleeding heart liberal/socialist/commie/marxist/whatever. The republicans are good at saying do as I say not as I do. They are dismantling government, and schools trying to go private. What happens when you can't afford a private education for your children?

[opihimoimoi]

18. AS A RET fire Capt....I resent assholes who make comments like that...

most likely they failed the entry exam....or is not qualied in the first place...

[xmas74]

69. Failed it?

I'd be shocked if they even attempted to take the exam.

I heard that argument all the time about 9-1-1 when I was a dispatcher. Supposedly we made great money and had fantastic benefits-all for a job that a trained monkey could do. A few years back most of the department was cut and they hired "call takers" to work dispatch and receptionists to work as call takers. I hope they like their 9-1-1 now that they've found ways to get rid of those with any experience.

[w0nderer]

20. carry a lighter

light it, look him in the eye, and ask him to get his face up close to the flame
no.. closer...CLOSER...CLOSER...!

what was that? you'll burn yourself? yes, you risk that, it's part of the job and takes nerves and balls, too bad you lack them both

so far only one person has gone close enough to actually feel the heat


that sitting around is called 'being on call'
i suppose sending them home could be done
assume a commute of 10 minutes to fire station and then 5 minute response time
10 minutes difference in lives in a overlit house....ahhh as long as it saves money right? of course that's an argument you take up with your insurance company :-)

negacluons all over

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. My cousin's husband is a retired fireman

He has scars from burns he suffered rescuing someone from a burning trailer.

I wonder how much money that loudmouth described in the OP would take to go into a burning trailer and pull someone out while flames licked at him.

[mwooldri]

24. some make $60k to $70k and have the best benefits, eh?

It would be nice IMO that *most* firefighters would make at least $60k and have the same if not better benefits.

Sure, there are firefighters who make this much but the 60-70k range is more of the top end.

That guy hasn't got the right facts.

[eShirl]

25. that probably sounded like a threat to him

"when your house is on fire"

[maryellen99]

26. 10 years ago firefighters were called heroes

Now they are scapegoats.

If my city,we have a few outspoken citizens who are trying to get the fire department cut.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

46. They did that recently in a small rural community.

They had a full time paid fire chief, then they had volunteers from there. They fired the chief. It is now entirely volunteer. And I believe everyone quit volunteering when they fired the chief. Wait until there's a fire and they have to wait an hour for someone to come from the next largest city that actually has a fire department. Oh, how I hope the lady that fired the chief has a house fire...
Duckie

[LWolf]

28. All public servants are lazy do-nothings making too much money.

Any amount of money is too much.

Or so I'm told. I'm a teacher.

[bvar22]

29. Privatize the Fire Departments,

give them No Bid Government Contracts,
...and THEN see how much they cost.

How much does our government pay a BlackWater Mercenary
compared to the pay of a regular Government soldier?

[Loge23]

30. ..and it's not just fighting fires!

Many firefighters are also paramedics and perform emergency medical services. In many locales, medical calls/accidents far outnumber actual fires.
Don't ask a firefighter about their day - it's often too gruesome to recall.
Professional firefighters are well-trained, caring, and intensely loyal individuals.
How can such a individual be "overpaid" at $60-$70K?

These attacks, which are increasing lately, are simply yet another attempt by the right to pit middle-class people against each other. ALL AMERICAN WORKERS should have "some of the best benefits" in the country. ALL AMERICAN WORKERS should be paid a wage that can afford them a life above the poverty line.

[eilen]

55. Many times they are called to come pick up old people off the floor

and they do it. Then the elderly person declines a ride to the ED. When someone calls more than once a week the EMTs bring them to the hospital and tell them they will have to find living arrangements that provide a higher level of care. If the individual still owns their home, their kids are usually not warm to that idea.

[Bake]

32. Let his f'ing house burn.

Shrink govt until you can drown it in the bathtub?

That's what you get.

Burn, baby, burn!

Bake

[no_hypocrisy]

33. No they aren't.

[Ganja Ninja]

34. It's always amazed me how some people always know when someone else is overpaid.

Yet they can never tell when they themselves are earning too much.

Everybody's overpaid. That's why nobody has money to buy anything. - conservative logic:shrug: :banghead:

[Populist_Prole]

108. I hear that crap all the time. Cons that think everybody's overpaid but them

Selfish, short sighted assholes. Everybody needs to work for less so their money will have more spending power...as if they were the only ones that drive the economy. Really burns my ass.

[Lunabelle]

35. And cops just sit in their cars all day and drive around.

People are just so stupid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Don't forget the donuts

:-) They eat donuts all day.

[Raine]

53. Police too (and I have issues with many of them) deserve to be well paid.

Last year when I was away from home my buglar alarm went off. I was notified and by the time I got home the police were already there with their guns drawn waiting to get into the house. These police didn't know who was in the house or what they faced but they were putting their lives on the line to go into the house.

Luckily as it turned out a bird had flown down the chimney and set the inside alarm off. It still kind of boggles my mind how they risk their lives like that all the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Admitedly when I was a medic

a few shifts we sat down during the shift and watched TV... or used the time for training...

But most of the time I chased the radio... or just had enough time to get ready for the next call in a leisurely manner. I wasn't paid. but this guy IS an idiot... when he calls 911 though he'll want them THERE... hope tehy were not chasing the radio.

[pinboy3niner]

38. Bloomberg: Firefighters Rescued More Than 100 During Irene (Don't tell Cantor...)

Posted in GD by kpete:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1838017

[ThoughtCriminal]

39. Ask him what FDNY firemen and paramedics were doing on 9/11/01

343 FDNY firefighters and paramedics who responded to the WTC attack were killed.

I don't care what they were doing earlier that morning.

[seaglass]

41. Yeah, my husband has been a ff/emt for 20 years and I've been hearing this crap since he started.

It's saddest when Dems buy into it, which seems to be the current trend.

Our D legislature and Gov Deval Patrick voted to take away collective bargaining rights for healthcare benefits. Pres. Obama suggests the public unions need to sacrifice as if they've never done that. :wtf: I expect this shit from Republicans!

I am sooooo sick of no one being on my husband's side.

Tomorrow my daughter starts her first day of student teaching. 4 months from now she will be licensed to teach and she is ecstatic!
I wonder how long it will be before she sees all the hatred and resentment being directed at her.

[hifiguy]

42. "I can think of no more stirring example of

man's humanity to man than a fire engine." - Kurt Vonnegut

To have the balls to walk into a place that everyone else is running from for the purpose of protecting human life is the definition of true bravery.

[0rganism]

44. wanna bet Mr. Asshole waves a big flag every year on 9/11?

I wonder if he tacks a flag onto his SUV...

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. In my experience, they are.

In my little town, ALL of the top earners are firemen. They pretty much all make 6 figures, and many have other jobs on the side. One guy worked for 30 years as a fireman, while being employed as an assistant football coach and also owned a contracting company. He made $110,000 annually as a fireman, and recently went out on disability (LOEFF1... I understand 80% of peak pay) and had 13 months of sick leave accrued. In 2011, he will make upwards of $200,000 as a retired disabled fireman (but not so disabled that he quit his building company).

When the Chief retired in 2002, he was the top candidate for the job, but he wouldn't take it because of the pay cut.

Do any of you get paid to play tennis? Sleep? Watch TV? Granted, most of a fireman's job is waiting for an emergency, but preparedness isn't compromised by handing them paintbrushes or setting them down in front of a computer to input billing records instead of watching tv. Suggesting this is a mortal insult.

I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect employees to use their time productively... not just "be ready".

In a prior life, I was a city councilman. Three terms. When it was time for reelection, those fuckers at the firehall used their time to go door-to-door telling all the old folks that if they didn't vote for their preferred candidate, the ambulance might not be there when they need it. Their preferred candidate won, of course, and quit when he found that he couldn't get a paycheck as a councilman as well as a paycheck for being an EMT.

Oh, and every one I know is a Republican.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

47. In my home town, they make 11 or 12 dollars an hour plus benefits.

And they used to make twice that until this asshole got elected Mayor and they decided to renegotiate the contract. We now have really super shitty people working there and no one nearly as dedicated as all the ones forced into retirement when that happened. Now they just hired an architect and apparently we have an artist in residence. It fucking pisses me off. And the former mayor is now the city manager who thinks he is God. He makes over $100,000 a year and most everyone in that city hates him and he wastes money like you wouldn't believe! This is in a small town in Oklahoma called Kingfisher that has under 5000 people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. That's messed up.

I guess it proves that not every town is alike.

[titaniumsalute]

49. My cousin is a firefighter in a decent sized town

His pay will cap at about $70K after 30 years (unless he is a Chief or something.) He makes about $48K right now. He could go into almost any kind of sales and make mroe than that tomorrow without risking his life. Frankly I don't really care what they do in between saving lives, property, etc.

One more point...do you know how many family functions he misses? Kids going to games, sports practice, holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. None.

As a poster upthread noted, so long as they are "ready" they can be at sports practices, school events, birthdays... or playing tennis. After, they go back to the station to sleep. So long as you're in town and not drinking, it's all good.

Four-on, four-off. $70k is what you can expect to start with overtime.

[etherealtruth]

In my city they earn ~ $43,000/year

Considering fire fighters work 24/7/365 (meaning a lot of grueling shift work and holidays spent away from loved ones) .... a base salary of $43,000 is a mere pitance.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Fire-Fighter-Salary-Details-48093.aspx

[eilen]

57. And off the job too!

Last Aug. 11, Chura, a Syracuse district fire chief on vacation in New Jersey, helped pull Priscilla Roslyn from her overturned Jeep Cherokee moments before it erupted in flames by the side of the Atlantic City Expressway.

“That was definitely a different date for me,” Chura said as he accepted the New York State Senate Liberty Award. “All I can say is, I was lucky that day and everything worked out in her favor. I’ve talked to her since. She’s doing well, recuperated. And it was just a great day.”


The Churas, of Lysander, were driving from Philadelphia to Cape May. As he turned his car onto the Egg Harbor Township off ramp, Chura glanced down an embankment and saw a Jeep overturned near a line of trees. Someone was trapped inside.
Chura didn’t pull over – he left his vehicle in the middle of the road and ran to the Jeep. Roslyn, now 62, of Ventnor, N.J., was hanging over the steering well, suspended by her seat belt. The SUV already was on fire.

Chura, a firefighter for a quarter century, was in vacation garb, not a turnout suit.
"I wasn't sure what I was going to be able to do," he said. "I had to try something."
Chura crawled into the Jeep and struggled to unsnap Roslyn’s harness. It finally gave way. Chura and two other men, Paul Talarico and Michael Mango, pulled her out of the vehicle. Chura checked her injuries, then the three men pulled her farther from the Jeep. Flames consumed the Jeep as they did.

[etherealtruth]

50. In my city they earn ~ $43,000/year

Considering fire fighters work 24/7/365 (meaning a lot of grueling shift work and holidays spent away from loved ones) .... a base salary of $43,000 is a mere pitance.

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Fire-Fighter-Salary-Details-48093.aspx

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. 24/7/365? Not anyone that I know.

4-on-4-off, around here.

The downtime is apparently used listening to talk radio.

[blueamy66]

54. I hear ya...

The firemen in AZ work 24 on and 48 off...and I would hazard to guess that 90% of them have side jobs.

Their bennies are awesome.

And nobody made them choose their profession.

Hey, I respect firemen/women....but let's set the record straight here. It's a great job, with great respect and great bennies.

[lunasun]

78. and a lot of danger.....duh... that is why the benefits

envy and greed hand in hand will bring us the new collective thought I think

[blueamy66]

116. danger, yeah, but it is their CHOSEN profession

nt

[ejpoeta]

134. so what if it is their CHOSEN profession.... it is still dangerous and they deserve to be paid

accordingly. they risk their lives everyday to protect people in danger. Period.

[blueamy66]

136. I think I've already stated this.

I respect them and hold them in high regard.

on edit: There is a reason why there are 5 city jobs open and 2000 applicants, dontcha think?

[PADemD]

130. The firemen in our township are all volunteer

No pay, no bennies!

[blueamy66]

135. That's pretty cool.

Hey, I believe that firefighters should be paid well and have nice benefits.

I've dated many in my past, have some good friends that are firefighters and know how it works.

I'm not dissing firefighters....just stating my opinion.

[PADemD]

183. Pretty cool? Apparently not.

They are begging for volunteers.

[jeff47]

141. So why aren't you doing it?

According to you, the job is very cushy and overpaid. So how come you're not doing it?

[blueamy66]

142. because I didn't go to university for this job

I decided to take a different route in my life.

It's not my passion, ya know?

I didn't become a doctor cause I don't care to be a doctor. I didn't become a librarian cause I don't care to be a librarian. I didn't become a university math teacher cuase I don't care to teach math.

Plus, it's harder than hell to get hired in AZ. The competition is unbelievable.

What a silly question jeff47.

And don't put words in my mouth....I never stated that the job was "cusy and overpaid".

Read my posts again, k?

[jeff47]

177. You were complaining about high pay and excess time off.

You don't have to use the literal words "cushy" or "overpaid" to be complaining about the job being cushy and overpaid.

"I decided to take a different route in my life. It's not my passion, ya know?"

So your answer is you can't/won't do the job, but people who do aren't suffering enough?

[grantcart]

59. San Diego firefighters have been putting it to the city for a long time

They have made out on pensions and overtime.

Each San Diego Firefighter costs the city $ 210,000 a year.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/photos/2010/aug/30/218236/

[KamaAina]

157. California is a special situation

it's not just San Diego, believe me. File this under "Unintended Consequences of Prop 13": basically, the state raises money and distributes it to local goverments who spend it. Thus, there has been little incentive for said local governments to do any hard-nosed bargaining with their unions, including the firefighters, until now that the state kitty has run dry.

[Rockholm]

64. They are grossly overpaid in my little city.

They have held city government hostage for years. We have a number of stations closed. Presently, they have used up 25% of their overtime budget for the fiscal year, which started in July.
Oh, and a major fire a couple of years ago burned a 5 story apartment building and the temple in town......all across the street from the central fore station. One person died.
Grossly overpaid.

[xmas74]

70. Really?

I dispatched fire/EMS and quite a few were Dems-especially the EMS crews. It was the Highway Patrol officers and the sheriff's deputies that were usually Republicans and are now proud tea partiers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

75. YMMV

As others have pointed out the pay and culture are different in other places.

But yes, cops are often Republicans. It's an authoritarian/paramilitary thing.

[xmas74]

77. I have noticed that many of the officers-especially

deputies and Hi-Po, are beyond Republicans and are admittedly proud tea baggers.

The pay in my area isn't all that great either-police actually make more in my town.

[jeff47]

87. Funny....I don't see you running into any burning buildings....

If it's such a fantastic and cushy job, why aren't you doing it?

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. We also have a volunteer fire department at the same time.

The professional firefighters get a call at the station from 911. For aid calls, the pro FF will wait at the station until volunteers show up to take the ambulance... officially because they can't leave the firehall unattended, but unofficially because the "volunteer" emt will get paid for the ambulance duty.

The volunteers do almost all the work, and get paid hourly while the pros do almost nothing. They've reached an agreement to avoid interfering with either group's income stream.

Your post is the worst kind of logical fallacy. The salary of public employees IS our business. I have more right to complain about FF salaries than I do to complain about CEO pay.

[jeff47]

179. You completely dodged the question.

Your claim: Firefighters are getting paid way too much while doing too little work.

My question: Then why aren't you doing the job? Most would find it very nice to be paid a lot for little work. Would leave plenty of time for volunteering or work on a side business. Or just slacking off.

Has nothing to do with it not being any of our business. It has a lot to do with the people claiming they're overpaid not signing up to be "overpaid"

[lumberjack_jeff]

181. Yes it does.

What I do for a living is only relevant to any conversation to the degree that I volunteer to tell you.

Here's the important thing: I'm a citizen. I employ these guys. I vote for those who set their compensation.

Are you a firefighter? If not, then explain to me why my knowledge of their compensation, work schedules and political activities is inferior to yours.

[TomClash]

161. In my big town

They make about $100,000 with OT and benefits after 5 years on the job. That's very good but not great money here.

Of course around ten years ago my fire station had a big turnover because 2/3 of them died on the job.

[lumberjack_jeff]

165. I stand corrected.

No amount of pay is too much, because many died once.

Or did I misunderstand you?

[TomClash]

169. Well, that's snarky

I never said "no amount of pay is too much." I don't think $100,000 with OT and benefits is a lot to pay for someone who risks his or her life in my city. Firemen do that; professors, city councilmen, investment bankers and most others generally don't. That has to be factored into the equation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

172. If they are paid for risk, then loggers should make about $800,000 per year.

On the job fatalities:
1) Loggers 129 per 100,000
2) Fishers 123 per 100,000
3) Water transportation 94.2 per 100,000
...

15) Firefighters 18.3 per 100,000
16) Police 14.0 per 100,000

44% of the firefighters who died in 2009 (about 40 of 90 total) died of heart attacks. You are most likely to have a heart attack when getting out of bed in the morning. It stands to reason that the only profession in which you're on the job while in bed is one in which heart attacks will disproportionately reflect in statistics.

Risk absolutely should be a factor in compensation. But that's not what drives FF salaries, what drives their salaries is cachet.

[TomClash]

175. In New York City

We don't have a lot of fishers and loggers and not very many seaman and longshoremen operating/stevedoring cargo ships and ferries have died here in recent memory. We have a fair amount of fires though.

Your stats have no link, though I'm sure you accurately transcribed them from somewhere. I don't know about 1 and 2 but 3 (water transportation) seems dubious. What does water transportation mean anyway?

I'm skeptical about firemen and cachet. I don't see how they have any more cachet than teachers or police or soldiers or nurses.

I suspect your view stems in part from firemen's support for your opponents in your councilmanic races and their close ties to the local Republican Party. I also suspect that political connection is why they do so well in your town. Am I wrong?

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. Individual firemen are individuals.

The person I described is actually a friend, a hard worker (which is why he has a construction company) and is a good guy. But he's going to take advantage of the bones thrown his way.

Collectively, they exploit their reputation and ability to say; "do what we want and no one gets hurt" to the utmost advantage. And yes, the fact that they're republicans doesn't help.

And yes, I can hold a grudge. But that doesn't imply that they don't deserve it.

"Water Transportation" is often described as "pilots and navigators" in surveys.
http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/13/pf/dangerousjobs/

[LanternWaste]

167. What then is the precise and relevant wage they should receive?

What then is the precise and relevant wage they should receive? On what objective basis is that figure arrived at?

Or is your speculation based merely on the above anecdotal example, lacking any firm numbers and realized simply as a 'hunch'?

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. It's like pornograpy. We know it when we see it.

The city couldn't function if everyone made what a starting firefighter makes. Certainly there are some people in public employ who are underpaid, but in western washington, firefighters aren't among them.

The objective basis is that taxpayers are the employers, they ultimately decide. And they're as equipped to make that decision as any employer is.

[udbcrzy2]

56. In St. Louis our firefighters make around 85k

It's a dangerous job. Comparing it to the policemen who make like 35k - 45k. I'm not sure about EMT, but I know it only takes about 1 semester of training to become one as compared to a paramedic which is a 2-year degree.

Over on the east-side (East St. Louis, IL) they do pay their police officers 85k and up.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. Pity that the mega rich bastards in this country, with their multi-million dollar salaries/bonuses

have convinced the masses that $60/70k is just too much for ANY regular person too be paid for working.

Nice also, that those same greedy a$$hole$ have pitted us regular people against one another, so that THEY can take the money and run.

[grantcart]

61. In San Diego each firefighter costs the city $ 210,000

There are abuses with pensions, disability and overtime.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/photos/2010/aug/30/218236/

Chicago, and most other cities, can afford two firefighters for each one of ours.

[Deep13]

88. -1

Does that include health insurance and worker's comp for their risky, physically demanding jobs? Does it include life insurance for widow/ers and orphans? Does it include training and equipment?

Seems like a bargain if it does.

[socialist_n_TN]

94. Wow, dude. That sounds like a job you ought to go for

Unless you're an investment banker of course. Then you can make 30/40 times that amount pushing pixels around. Now THAT'S dangerous. :sarcasm:

[Deep13]

96. +1 nt

[FreeState]

121. Union Tribune.... No article with the graphic, but it's wrong or misleading

]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_Fire-Rescue_Department

Low staffing levels

The San Diego Fire Department is somewhat understaffed compared to comparable fire departments. For example, the fire department has about one firefighter per 1469 residents, compared to one fire fighter per 421 residents in San Francisco.<2> Currently, the San Diego Fire Department is the lowest paid department in southern California. In comparison with other major cities with populations over 1 million, such as Los Angeles, the starting pay for City of San Diego Fire Fighter is around $46,000.

[wolfgangmo]

122. Is the problem firefighters generally or corruption in your city?

[haele]

155. Costs are different than pay -

I cost my employer my paycheck plus - usually around the same amount that I am getting paid. So if I'm being paid $50K a year, my cost to the company that hires me is probably around $85K - $120K a year, depending on my contract and how much matching they have to do on my company 401K. If they match dollar for dollar on the pension or 401K, it can be anywhere between $3K and $30K depending on how much the employee is putting into the 401K.

The way your statement is being phrased, there - if each firefighter "costs on average" $210K to the city each year, and gets overtime whenever they're at a fire or accident working when the shift changes, then that tells me the average pay across the board for firefighters in the city is probably around $30 - $40 an hour. If there are 30 firehouses with two Captains, plus the 10 or 15 upper level staff who are making over $140K a year as managers, then expect the working firefighter to be making around $60K a year, plus overtime. That should be average skilled labor wages.

Admittedly, there's a serious pension problem in San Diego, and it's endemic at the higher levels - a bunch of policy makers were feathering their nests - but most of the "abuses" come from the perception of the average desk worker who doesn't realize there is a minimum physical and mental state the firefighters have to maintain, and frankly, that costs money.
I would think it's very difficult if you had even a minor injury or got a little out of shape, and keep working at a job like a firefighter or EMT, where there are unscheduled and urgent requirements to be at top physical capacity. How can you to tell the family members, "Sorry I couldn't save your dad from that burning house, my back hurt and I just couldn't run as fast or carry as much as I should have been able to..."
I used to work shipyards, and now come to work with a crappy back and failing knee, but I work a desk for the most part. How many desk jobs are there available for a fire-fighter who isn't at least 90%?

I know that there are plenty of outraged taxpayers in San Diego due to the excesses on the part of greedy City management, but most of the city employees are not the cause of the problems. I also don't really blame the unions for trying to get the best deals they could to keep halfway decent employees during the boom of the 90's - which is when most of the current "excessive pensions" and speculative financing of city projects started occurring. (Thanks a lot, Susan and Dick!) Wages have stagnated and benefits have been cut since then, and it's difficult for me to tell any employee they can't have a compensatory living wage just because I'm being forced to "tighten my belt" and take a cut. I'm just a desk jockey right now. But when I was working a physically active job and was "on call", that was f'n tough to keep putting up with, and having to worry about home stuff like bills or if I needed to take time off for a family task or event always impacted my work, like it impacted the work of others around me in the same position.
I don't want someone who I might depend on to prove me with life-saving services to be tightening their belts to such a degree that they are distracted while doing their job; more concerned about paying their rent or mortgage than providing me a service I can't afford to pay a businessman to provide me on a contingency account.

Haele

[grantcart]

173. The fundamental issue remains the same. The cost of a San Diego firefighter

is about double the cost of other metropolitan areas.

You are correct that the basis for the disparity lies in the corrupt and illegal pension deals that have plagued San Diego and which, ironically, are rooted in an agreement between the unions and the city fathers to bring the Republican convention to the city so many years ago.

It wasn't just city management that was greedy it was also some key union officials who negotiated secret multi 6 figure bonuses to their personal pensions.

The fact is that all unions and all cities are not equal and the situation in San Diego is not typical to the average fire fighter.

[Skittles]

63. as far as I am concerned

people who take GETTING BURNED as a job risk deserve MORE money than they get

[w0nderer]

127. +1

it's amazing how most people when confronted with an open flame and asked to just
make a small blister....say a square inch of facial tissue
won't do it no matter the money offered close enough (there is a break point)

but they are willing to let someone else do it and complain they get paid
for overcoming that fear, and risking that kind of damage

[Initech]

67. Oh how I hate this shit. Fuck the Koch Brothers and their BS CATO-Institute talking points!

:grr: :argh: :mad: :argh: :mad: :grr:

[lunasun]

79. and the bird brain public that parrots it for them everywhere even coffee shops.....

Ice cream shop with my daughter too could not stay to hear the BS these 3 old hags were going on about cops and firefighters $ pensions because of all the swear words they added and my young daughter near by so had to leave.....stupid and also foul folks that fall for it all and pass it forward

[Initech]

97. I'm at least glad we have Stewart and Colbert.

They completely destroy these idiots. It sucks royally that seemingly normal people get caught up in the right-wing's lies and bullshit and believe it!!! And then they vote against their own interests to the point where this is the kind of bullshit we have to deal with on a daily basis, it sucks! Argh, I hate our media.

[lunasun]

104. I dont have either guy becuz I dont have cable but I hope they both become more popular

if that is true and counter this crazy talk around town

[Bette Noir]

113. You can watch them online.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/
http://www.colbertnation.com/

Enjoy!

[seaglass]

123. I am beside myself because of 2 of the assholes in this thread.

That's what I meant about even DEMS buying into this shit.

I could never be a firefighter because I would find out who these resentful assholes were and make sure that they got the slowest response time EVER.

[justiceischeap]

68. Where I grew up in Pennsylvania, our fire departments were all volunteer

So, let him bitch about that. All they got was a pager that got them out of work if there was a fire. In PA you pay in money to your car insurance to pay for rescue services and uninsured motorists--this way they can purchase and upkeep the equipment but the firemen themselves didn't get paid.

Maybe this guy would like to keep a bucket and hose near his home should he ever have need of fire services and he can put the damn thing out himself... like they did in the "good old days."

[begin_within]

72. They will remember him, when there's a fire, and firefighters have to choose which houses to save.

[Swede Atlanta]

73. Yeah, they are assholes...

Trust me they would not nor likely could not do the work of a fireman or EMT. But they always try to claim the moral high ground. Assholes.

[TomClash]

74. In NYC firemen are like . . .

Greek Gods. Even Police Officers respect them. It is the elite civil service profession. Who the hell disses firemen? :shrug:

[mtnester]

154. Apparently some people on DU do. I see it with my own eyes.

sad

[TomClash]

163. Believe it or not, I once saw them rescue a baby from a burning building

Top floor, kitchen fire that had spread through two floors. Poor, immigrant family. It was quite moving.

[rpannier]

76. Especially since you are more likely to be killed as a fireman than any other civilian occupation

nt

[lunasun]

81. What is next ? Veteran's benefits too generous? would not be surprised ...think of the savings!

if they can get all the mantras going.....more for the little piggies like Kochs

[Deep13]

95. We need to stop coddling crippled servicemen!

I had a teach in high school who was a Vietnam veteran who was wounded in action twice. He said people asked him why he got special treatment on the civil service test just because he was shot. His answer was to exclaim, "What do you mean 'just because I was shot'?!"

[lunasun]

107. It is coming

Already hear talk about returning veterans and the burden they will add to employment crunch here at home as Iraq deployment news occurs :eyes: Benefits and yes vet prefrd treatment/points a big no no could be added to the coffee klatch talk.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

83. I don't think you could ever pay them enough.

Besides saving humans they save animals, cats from trees, dogs stuck in trees and fences, animals stuck in storm drains, animals that fell into deep water and through ice, and yes, they save people and animals from fires and participate in critical rescue efforts such as those after 9/11.

Same with EMT's and teachers - these are (IMO) critical members of society who make their living helping and saving others and educating our children (our future).

Can't pay them enough, IMO - just generally speaking.

[Juche]

84. Where does this hatred of people with noble careers come from?

Teachers, police officers, EMTs, firefighters. Where is all the hatred coming from? Soon doctors and philantropists will be attacked as overpaid.

I'm guessing it is because the above workers (doctors, firefighters, police) are public employees, so the right has to turn the public against them so they can privatize them and break their unions, which are the only unions left in the country.

But it is fucked up how easily people fall for it. Fire fighters didn't collapse the global economy. And EMTs make about $13/hr where I live. People are shit.

[Initech]

100. CATO Institute, Fox News.

What's royally pissing me off is that the millionaires and billionaires - the ones really causing the collapse of our economy - are getting away with it, and blaming the little guy as a result.

[Deep13]

86. Well, jeez, it's not like they're saving lives or anything...

Oh, wait. Never mind. :sarcasm:

[jwhitesj]

89. How did this happen

How did teachers, fire fighters, and EMT's become villains? I don't understand how unions became villains either, but atleast with unions their were the mob ties that some people latch on too. What the hell is wrong with these people.

[Deep13]

93. When things suck, they irrationally blame those who they see...

...as doing well. The ultra-rich are out of sight so they don't blame the rich. Plus being on the public payroll makes these people feel like somehow public servants are cheating them. The ruling class encourages this because they would rather have people blaming a scapegoat than blaming them. Old story. When Russian peasants were starving, the Tsar's govt. encouraged them to blame the Jews. When the USA economy sucks, it must be because people are speaking Spanish etc.

[lunasun]

103. There seems to be a lot of " I didnt get mine" past midlifer people around. Mine being

happiness. Just IMO
Happiness that you dont need a good paying job or pension to get happiness, and money can most certainly not buy it, nor does respect or admiration or time off work guarantee it

But these whiners latch on to all this fruedian manipulative crap that the power$ that can use them as pawns dole out and bite at the lines, hook and sinker too. Big blamers of it is everybody else who is at fault for what I do not like.

Usually not leading tragic lives or at poverty level but because they subcumb to envy and begore that they started with greed; they really mpst times are just the ones that didnt do as good in life for whatever reason as a cop or never were as smart as their kid's teacher, never had collective bargaining always begging for pay raises alone .
Big chips on their shoulder or the flip side got everything handed to them.

Some I have met when you talk to them really didnt try too hard in life IMO or you know for a myriad of reasons, they could never handle the jobs they think are so easy and over paid but beleive they are 'due' the same rewards.

Also a lot of people have an honorable but varied work history....to get a pension to build up you have to stay at the same place and odds same level too ...hey just to stick @ a same job for 25+ yrs is something that is worth it to communities too.It guarantees less turn over, retraining etc and more expereince which before double speak was all a good thing
Also some younger people have picked up the mantra and get "green" with it early in life and are more miserable and mixed up for a longer time. It could spread to a generation that thinks "There is no chance I will ever get mine even though I am just starting out" and really turn on fellow workers IMO

[Deep13]

91. Well, firefighters get all that money, but what do they ever give?

Oh. :-(

[orbitalman]

92. K & R

[NMMNG]

98. Why is it

that those types never think CEOs and politicians are overpaid? It's only firefighters, cops, teachers, garbage collectors and the like who are somehow overpaid. WTF?

[EFerrari]

99. To paraphrase Lost Boys, this would be a nice country if it weren't for

all the goddamn idiots.

[tpsbmam]

101. The asshole is full of shit....stats from the Bureau of Labor Statistics...

Earnings

Median annual wages of fire fighters were $44,260 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $31,180 and $58,440. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $22,440, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $72,210. Median annual wages were $44,800 in local government, $45,610 in the Federal Government, $25,300 in other support services, and $37,870 in State governments.

Median annual wages of first-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers were $67,440 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $53,820 and $86,330. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $40,850, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $108,930. First-line supervisors/managers of fire fighting and prevention workers employed in local government earned a median of about $69,000 a year.

According to the International City-County Management Association, average salaries in 2008 for sworn full-time positions were as follows:

Position Minimum annual base salary Maximum annual base salary
Fire chief $78,672 $104,780
Deputy chief 69,166 88,571
Battalion chief 66,851 81,710
Assistant fire chief 65,691 83,748
Fire captain 60,605 72,716
Fire lieutenant 50,464 60,772
Engineer 48,307 62,265

In 2008, 66 percent of all fire fighters were union members or covered by a union contract. Fire fighters receive benefits that usually include medical and liability insurance, vacation and sick leave, and some paid holidays. Almost all fire departments provide protective clothing (helmets, boots, and coats) and breathing apparatus, and many also provide dress uniforms. Fire fighters generally are covered by pension plans, often offering retirement at half pay after 25 years of service or if the individual is disabled in the line of duty.

Yeah, a person who works TWENTY-FIVE years as a firefighter (I can't even imagine!) isn't due a decent pension. Riiiiiiight. You have to be a special kind of asshole to begrudge firefighters getting decent pay & benefits. Hell, when you look at the stats, most aren't even getting decent pay for the job they have to do!!

[nomb]

102. My best friend is on the highest paid dept in Illinois.

He has great pay. Really great pay. Good, but not overwhelming benefits.

A wonderful schedule of on 1, off 2 that with calculated weekends and holidays factored in means he only works 5 days some months. For real.

His retirement is good, but not great.

And it was all freely negotiated with a wealthy community that has very high demand tactical areas of Major Highway, fuel tank farms, Highrises, seniors, residential, water, etc. Basically they are very well trained in every area of fire fighting and are all paramedics trained and tested to be at the top.

Fact is, he has a great job and there are well educated motivated people lined up to take any opening.

That's what the community bought, wanted and agreed to. Nothing political about it.

[nomb]

105. I will grant though that he speaks of some abuses out there....

But they are rare, even if they make the headlines.

Usually they are individuals who game the system (one famous case in the fire service was a NYC FF who took every open shift available and managed to work (and live) every 24 hour shift for 7 days a week and each of the 365 days in the year for just over two years straight. And it was calc'd as overtime.

Me, I saw that as fair by the rules, plus someone had to work those hours - but my friend cited safety issues and the role that each FF has in ensuring the life of not only those around him but the public and the impossibility of keeping a professional presence ad infinitum especially in a high tempo of operations NYC ladder company.

So, yes, like everything in life there is imperfection. But again it's each communities choice as to what they want and how to get there.

[eridani]

117. True, there are abuses. But mainly that is a result of people shirking citizenship--

--oversight duties. I live in an unincorporated area just south of Seattle. The North Highline fire chief gets paid more than the Seattle fire chief, ferchrissakes! Nothing higher than 4 stories in the entire area, let alone some potential nightmare like a fire in the Columbia Tower to deal with. I have a friend running for fire commissioner to change that. She has the support of the firefighters, because their training days were cut in order to pay the salaries of the higher-ups.

[Taverner]

106. The GOP has trained them well

Fuck the GOP

[lunasun]

109. They volunteer for the training and learn so well so

fuck these idiot 'morans' making noise too

[Crunchy Frog]

110. This sort of thing is the result of a well orchestrated and funded

propaganda campaign.

Sometimes it seems that Americans are the most easily propagandized people on the planet.

Nevertheless, for those who are so opposed to government maintained infrastructure and basic social institutions, I wish they would just move to Haiti where they can be totally free from those sorts of infringements on their liberties.

[DollyM]

112. our fire department is all volunteer . . .

I live in a small community and our fire department is all volunteer as well as the EMT's. The EMT's on call the night my son died were all members of the fire department. They took him to the hospital where he died (or was pronounced dead) shortly after. We did not recieve any kind of bill for their services. I hate it when people make generalizations like this. Not everyone has a cushy funded fire department, ambulance etc. It is all about community and helping each other out here.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

114. FUCK THAT NOISE!!!!!! what an asshole!!

:grr:

[Bette Noir]

115. I used to be a hospice nurse. I'll never forget the firefighter I took care of,

while he died of liver cancer (in his 40s), probably contracted by inhaling toxic smoke on the job. Liver cancer is an awful way to die. How much money should he have been paid?

That's the specific; here's the generic. I spent the first 50-odd years of my life in California, where "fire" is a season, as dependable as snow in Minnesota. During those firestorms, firefighters from all over the Southwest work 24/7 for weeks, sleeping on the ground for an hour at a time when they can. I've seen miracles, where a house has been saved in the middle of miles of devastated forest, multiplied x thousands, where people build in the hills. How much should a man be paid, to risk his life to save other people's property? How much should he be paid, to save an ancient forest from being leveled?

[Politicalboi]

118. The asshole forgot about the

Free rent the firefighters get living at the station. :sarcasm:

[luv_mykatz]

119. How much money is anyone's life worth?

People who work in emergency services put their life at risk whenever they have to respond to a call for help.

How many of the horrid jerks who complain would be willing to do that?! :grr:

I think most of us would agree that no amount of money would be enough to compensate for having to risk our lives for our jobs.

[Harriety]

120. I don't know why the people we need the most lately are getting cut the most.

Minneapolis just laid off a bunch of firefighters to help balance the budget. I know their mayor is going to regret it after that first house burns down and someone gets hurt or killed. And what's with teacher bashing? Most people are not qualified to teach their own children. They really are taking our country back. Way back.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

124. I had a co-worker--very well educated, too--tell me that truck drivers make too much money

They make more than he does, he said. I asked him where he got his information from. He told me that he heard it on the news. I asked him to consider the danger and responsibility it requires to be a truck driver. That if it wasn't for truck drivers, who would deliver food to grocery stores, goods to manufacturers. While we sat there at a nice restaurant, sipping on our "too expensive" red wine and nice dinner, he didn't think to understand that it is truck drivers that have made it possible for us to do so.

This is why we can ill afford to be divided. It is very easy for people to be given false information or buy into propaganda by a Corporate Media that never corrects the misinformation and never takes any of the Teabagging Republicans on.

Folks like my friend may easily get lured into the likes of the Tea Party. He is progressive, too, but hates politics. He won't listen to anything I say when I start talking politics. And yet, I fear that he could become susceptible to Right Wing propaganda because he refuses to listen to reason, but doesn't mind it when it is this anti-government, anti-public worker sentiment.

[GTurck]

125. Ditto with police...

Yeah some overdo their authority but we should be grateful they put their lives out there.The have to deal with the results of our attitudes on all sorts of issues and and our failure to address those issues. They face guns, craziness, and fear everyday and yet most seem to remain stable and compassionate human beings. We just need to help them winnow out the ones who would dictate but not demonize what they must do to keep us all safer.
(Disclosure) my youngest son was a police officer for 20 years until politics made the job too tough.

[democrank]

128. More ignorance on parade.

[markpkessinger]

129. Good God, when did we become so small? n/t

[TBF]

131. 60-70K and "best benefits in the country"? Seriously?

Do they have any idea what kind of money executives make? Doctors, lawyers, engineers? Paying someone $60K and expecting them to risk their life every day on the job is a bargain.

[blueamy66]

138. Okay, TBF...but, how many years of schooling do

doctors, lawyers and engineers go through, as opposed to a firefighter? Let's talk about student loans that have to be paid back?

Here in AZ, one really just needs to have an AA....and know somebody.

It's nice to work 24 hours on and 48 off and make $70k...it allows them to have a second job.

So let's double their income and call it $140k per year.

Again, I know that their jobs are dangerous and that they risk their lives....but they choose this profession. They are not drafted.

Let's talk about our servicemen and women....How much do they make for risking their lives?

[jeff47]

143. So Drs, lawyers, engineers should get paid more for making poor financial choices?

Student loans are not the reason someone should be paid more.

[blueamy66]

144. That's not my point

Going to med school is a poor financial choice? Really?

Come on....everyone knows how difficult it is to be hired on as a paid firefighter.

Again, there is a reason that there are 2000 applicants for 5 jobs in the fire dept.

on edit: you missed my "know somebody" remark

[seaglass]

145. I think you do not personally know a single firefighter. n/t

[blueamy66]

148. Oh, if you only knew....

:9

Can you define "know"? Are we talking in the Biblical sense?

:evilgrin:

[jeff47]

176. You are the one who is claiming student loans justify high salaries.

One can go to med school without racking up massive student loans. You don't have to go to Yale.

"on edit: you missed my "know somebody" remark"

No, I just completely discount it as the BS excuse trying to cover why you can't do the job.

[TBF]

152. And even with the student loans

the salaries more than make up for it.

[TBF]

151. I know about the student loans for the professions -

we are still paying ours back.

I also know I will take our income (with loans) over firefighter any day of the week. YMMV.

And that "double their income" crap? You really think they make $70K in the "second" job if they can find one? Again, I'll take our income (with loans) over that fantasy scenario. Military pay varies and they retire after 20 years, at which time they can work for government contractors and make well over $70K a year if they so desire.

Your attempt to drive wedges is noted.

[blueamy66]

158. it's not crap

Every SINGLE firefighter that I have known, dated, etc. had a side job. One did tile work. One owns a crime scene clean up company. One works with other firefighters, working for the other firefighter's construction company, flipping houses. And that is only 3 examples. When you grow up in a smallish town, work with the police and the hospital, you get to know the firefighters.

I know of what I speak.

I am not "driving wedges". I am stating the truth.

AGAIN! I respect fireman. I just know that they have a great job. Which they have chose and are lucky to have.

[TBF]

159. Driving wedges -

is when right-wingers try to divide workers by provoking them to fight amongst themselves.

You are in a smallish town - I grew up there (under 400 people!) - and now I live in the suburbs. I know how folks can survive on a McDonald's salary (barely at best), and I know how folks survive when they take out loans and become "professional".

It may seem a world apart - folks making maybe $20K a year vs. those making $200K - but I can promise you that we have more in common than you'd think.

And the CEO's and other top 1/2 of 1%'ers - they live in a different world from you and me.

[blueamy66]

166. Okay, not sure what your point is

but I'll just let it go with what I've posted.

I am not trying to divide people....

[TBF]

170. The point is that workers need to stick together -

and the very rich will do whatever they can to keep us from doing that. I'm not suggesting that you're meaning to do that, just that it is pervasive in the media and there's a reason these things get started "firemen are overpaid", "teachers are overpaid", "county workers are overpaid", etc... No, they're not.

CEO's who make millions of dollars a year - and you should see their benefits packages (which include cars, club memberships etc...) - those are folks who are overpaid. Not to mention certain politicians ...

[blueamy66]

171. I agree with you 100%

nt

[adam in oregon]

133. EMT pay

Obviously the guy doesn't know what he is talking about. When I was an EMT for a private company in California I worked 70 hours a week, sometimes more, and got paid 30 cents above minimum wage. We stayed in stations that should have been condemned because they were falling apart. When I went to more school and upgraded to a paramedic I got a raise to 8.30 an hour. Ask your local medic what they make. You will be shocked. And you will be lucky to be paid for all 24 hours in a shift. I know that in Crescent City, that EMTs are paid minimum wage, for only 18 hours of a 24 hour shift. So they are making LESS than minimum wage. These folks have your life in your hands and they are paid barely better than working at McDonalds. The competition for these jobs is enormous. Every semester there is a new crop of EMT's but there is only the same number of jobs in any given city. It usually comes down to who you know.
There are not many jobs where you are expected to go to ANY location, whether it is a nasty nursing home, under the bridge with the junkies, burning houses, to the projects or wherever at 3 in the morning and you have to perform at top level, or people may die. And we are not allowed to lose our cool and threaten and beat you when you don't act like we want, like cops get to do.
At the companies I worked at there was no retirement and the benefits were average. So don't let someone who is obviously ignorant of the facts get you down.

[RoadRage]

137. My brother is a firefighter in Kansas City...

With overtime he makes in the range of $75,000. He also is a certified paramedic (2 year degree). He usually goes out on about 6 - 8 paramedic / ambulance calls for every one fire (he's in the suburbs). He'll have days where he's out for 20 hours straight.. no sleep, no food unless he can grab something on his way to the next call.

Other days are slower - that's the way it works. He also can make overtime by teaching fire safety courses, doing car seat checks, inspections, etc.

I don't think he's over paid for what he does at all. Saving peoples lives? Running into burning buildings when everyone else is running out? I don't see many people lining up for that job at $10 per hour...

[n2doc]

139. Part of the t-bagger mentality that everyone should be earning minimum wage

Everyone except THEM, of course, and the 'god like' CEO's.

See it here at DU too. We should be pushing to raise wages, not lower them, for the bottom 90% of earners.

[DreamSmoker]

140. Put the blame where it belongs...

Don't get angry with those who serve us..
Before the Economy Dumped... The Fire Fighter was a hero...
Teachers served too.. They spent more hours teaching our Kids than many Parents spend all day with their Kids..

This assault on each is by design...
Who the hell do you think is responsible for putting us in this position to fight and degrade each other????

The filthy Rich are just getting fatter and the Banks steel your money with impunity..
Now these Folks have us fighting each other and have successfully divided everyone in this Country Politically..
Proof is in every election since Bush ran for President..

[Bosso 63]

149. If you keep the working drones fighting each other over crumbs,

know one notices that the rest of the pie is being stolen.

[TBF]

153. Bingo - best reply in the thread. nt

[Nailzberg]

156. Tell him to call 911 and say to thier face.

When he says he can't call 911 because there isn't an emergency to report, that's when you grab a chair and smash it across his face.

[and-justice-for-all]

160. What a brainwashed Tea bagging fuckwad...nt

[Blue_Tires]

162. this isn't new...

Years ago, firefighters were the public school teachers of today for some grandstanding politicians trying to get some attention...

[Aerows]

178. It's a dangerous job

As a country, we have some of the most selfish people in the world. Don't want to pay teachers, don't want to pay firemen a decent living - it's insane.

[Populist_Prole]

182. Right after 9/11 it was flag waving RW-ers who thought the world of firemen

I must've got a scazillion email forwards from RW friends and relatives praising and depicting with photos/artwork the valor of fire fighters. I guess the delayed reaction is setting in ( they really are thick headed dolts aren't they? ) and they realize many many firefighters are both public sector employees...and union members to boot...Oh My! Now they "have to" hate them. They gotta stick with the program.