Leaked cable: Vatican sees Latino socialist leaders as ‘dangerous’

[Playinghardball]

Source: Raw Story
By Stephen C. Webster

Less than a month after disastrous National Assembly elections in 2005, U.S. officials met with the Vatican's third highest ranking archbishop to discuss the church's outlook on Venezuela along with the Vatican's positions on a number of other Latin American leaders, according to a U.S. diplomatic cable published Wednesday by WikiLeaks.

During the conversation, recounted in a cable composed on Dec. 23, 2005, Vatican internal affairs chief Archbishop Leonardo Sandri said the church views a number of Latin American leaders as "dangerous," including Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and then-Mexican presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

Obrador was defeated by rival Felipe Calderón, but continued to campaign for months thereafter, insisting the election had been stolen through fraud. The Vatican saw him as a threat similar to Chavez or former Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, according to the cable.

U.S. officials also gave Sandri an idea: having the Vatican order the U.S. Catholic church to supply more aid to the Venezuelan Catholic church so they could build up social programs, enlarging their platform to speak out against Chavez. He responded "positively" to the suggestion, according to the cable.

More: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/24/leaked-cable-vatican-sees-latino-socialist-leaders-dangerous/

[socialshockwave]

1. Well, Chavez IS dangerous.

He routinely tramples on human rights as if they were garden variety tomatoes.


But still - keep politics out of religion and vice versa, Vatican.

[EFerrari]

27. Yes, Chavez is dangerous to the World Bank and the IMF. n/t

[hifiguy]

34. Oh, brother...

:rofl:

[sabrina 1]

52. Lol, yes he's dangerous to the far right in this world.

And to think he's a Catholic too. But they do not like him because he took away some of the wealth stolen from the people of Venezuela and gave it back to them. How 'unChristian of him'.

[roody]

84. What danger does he present to you?

[Necronomiconomics]

87. Colombia: US "ally", Death Squads, mass graves. Venezuela: US "enemy", no squads/mass graves

WHO tramples human rights?

And the Vatican supports human rights HOW? With pedophile priests? By attacking birth control? By supporting TORTURE REGIMES in Argentina & Chile in the 1970s? By supporting amnesty for Pinochet in 1999?

[devilgrrl]

120. He sure is. Why he's Attila the Hun, Napoleon and Hitler rolled up into one!!!!

He's more dangerous than global warming!!!!

[hlthe2b]

2. What was that you say, Herr Ratzinger?

Don't like socialists? Surprise surprise... (not)

[ForeignandDomestic]

4. .......

Revelation 17: 9,10,11

9)THIS CALLS FOR A MIND WITH WISDOM. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10) They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11) The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.


HalleluYAH!!!

[white_wolf]

5. What does this quote from Revelation(a coded commentary on the Roman Empire) have to do with the

post you replied to.

[Raster]

116. absolutely nothing.... at least nothing coherent.

[jwirr]

12. So what does this have to do with this post? Not every one interprets

Revelations the same. Anyone who wants to run the world according to revelations is a fool.

[GodlessBiker]

3. Pedophile priests? Not so much.

[malaise]

6. They are - they will prevent a return to feudalism

with the holy roman imperialist empire.

[hifiguy]

7. The Vatican can sit and spin.

They're still pissed they don't have the Holy Roman Empire under their heel anymore.

Feudalism never had a better friend than the RC Church.

[Cool Logic]

8. Socialists abhor independent property, independent thought, independent work...

and an independent human being.

The socialist who dreams of Utopia is an intellectually impaired, yet benevolent individual.

On the other hand, the socialist who endeavors to implement his authoritarian ideology, is indeed, "dangerous."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Ayn Rand?

[Cool Logic]

21. Actually, it is probably closer to a John Locke evocative....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The part about socialism stifling freedom was evocative The Fouintanhead.

I'm surprised you didn't throw in some tidbits about the evils of (EEK!) collectivism.

[Cool Logic]

38. Well, socialism, communism, fascism, etc. are indeed collectivist in nature.

[Unvanguard]

43. What does "collectivist" mean? n/t

[white_wolf]

44. Fascism is collectivist?

You mean the ideology that was supported by big business in the 30s? You mean the ideology whose founder said should more apperoatly be called corporatism because it is the merger of the state with corporate power?

[Cool Logic]

54. The dictionary definition of fascism is:

a governmental system with strong centralized power, permitting no opposition or criticism, controlling all affairs of the nation (industrial, commercial, etc.), emphasizing an aggressive nationalism . . .

Or: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Although the People have the responsibilities associated with owning property under fascism, they do so without freedom to utilize their property in accordance with their own values and interests. Under socialism, the state has all of the "rights" of ownership, but no accountability. However, the primary feature is that neither system is voluntary in nature.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Where exactly is the collectivism in that quote

By the way it is summarized even more succinctly... it is the mixing of state and corporate power. I'd think Benito Mussolini had a clue what he was talking about.

[Cool Logic]

58. Surely, you can see it...if you are not afraid to see what it is that you see.

1) emphasizing an aggressive nationalism
2) that exalts nation and often race above the individual

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Yes, one example was nazi germany

please show me the collective farms in Germany that were taken from private hands.

For that matter show them to me in Italy...

Spain (you'd have the best chances there, and not even close)

Chile

Argentina

Brazil

Greece

Turkey

South Korea...


Oh Suharto's regime....

Please, I am waiting for good photos of collectivist farms in ANY OF THESE, and you got the BEST chance in Franco's Spain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Raises eyebrows

I will not bother with the extremely basic political science, but I would suggest a basic course in comparative political systems...

In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I don't think that word means what you think it means..."

[socialshockwave]

11. Sadly true.

From my understanding, socialism and communism work on a Borg-like mentality that we all need to be one.

It also panders to naive notions that humans are not flawed creatures; we're greedy, self-centred, manipulative and generally indifferent to those outside our families.

[hifiguy]

14. Straw man - and a pathetic one

Most of us who call ourselves socialists use Scandinavia as our model, not Stalin's USSR or Ceaucescu's Romania.

Some people's kids, I tell ya....:eyes:

[socialshockwave]

16. Yes, but from my knoweldge, Scandinavia is a mixed economy.

which I have no problem with.

[EFerrari]

29. As is Venezuela. n/t

[Cool Logic]

35. Scandinavian countries are Capitalist...

[WinkyDink]

25. Uh, au contraire; socialism recognizes the existence of individual greed quite well.

[Cool Logic]

37. "socialism recognizes the existence of individual greed quite well."

Unlike Utopia, greed exists; however, it is the authoritarian nature of socialism that does not account for greed.

[white_wolf]

77. "authoritarian nature of socialism"

Tell me what is authoritarian about expanding democracy to the economy?

[Cool Logic]

81. Actually, democracy is also authoritarian in nature.

For example, under a democracy, if the majority does not like what you say, they can legally sentence you to death. Democracy, is a system of unlimited majority rule that legalizes the random, irrational and emotional whims of the mob.

I prefer a Republican form of government: namely, because it is rational rather than emotional.

Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. ~ John Adams

[EFerrari]

28. Hilarious.

LOL

[Cool Logic]

36. We humans are indeed, imperfect creatures...we are incapable of creating Utopia on Earth...

If all human beings possessed an impeccable moral code of values, the consequences of anarchy and oligarchy would be identical--any form of government would work.

The same thing can be said about economic systems. Everything works in heaven; however, it is the imperfect nature of the human psyche, that necessitates the evaluation and selection of an economic system.

Marx advocated for the public ownership of the means of production, and, thus, the abolition of private property. Without property rights, human rights are not possible; hence, Marxism entails the abolition of human rights.

Marxism might work in heaven; however, just a human being's body is necessary for life on Earth, human rights necessarily entail property rights.

[white_wolf]

39. There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to start.

Socialism recognizes that humans don't have perfect morals much better than capitalism does. Socialism tries to reduce the problems of our imperfections by distributing power evenly among the people, instead of concentrating it in the hands of the few as capitalism does.

If people aren't perfect, and they aren't. Why do we choose a system that encourages the worst in human nature as capitalism does?

Your argument that property rights are the basis of all other rights is right out of the Libertarian, Ayn Rand, playbook. Human rights do not entail private property rights.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Actually it is right out of John Locke

and Hume had some lovely arguments about this...

[hifiguy]

48. Boom goes the dynamite

and you win the subthread, wolf!

[Cool Logic]

49. Capitalism is a product of the Age of Enlightenment...

it led to the end of slavery and serfdom in the entire civilized world of the nineteenth century. Socialism and other collectivist forms of government are reminiscent of the tribal nature of human relationships that dominated the Dark Ages.

When I advocate for free-market Capitalism, I do not mean pure, unbridled, laissez-faire capitalism. For I understand that Capitalism is not perfect. If left un-checked, it can become destructive. For Capitalism is no different than other economic systems, in that its success depends upon the moral character of the human beings that are making use of it.

The advantage that Capitalism has over other systems is that all market relations are voluntary. The two-part nature of a supply and demand economy allows the People to control the market from either side of the equation. When honorable People are on both sides, no other economic system can match its creative power and standard of living.

John Locke was one of the most influential of thinkers of the Age of Enlightenment. He is often referred to as the father of liberalism and he was one of the first thinkers to put forth the theory that all people are equal and independent. He recognized the morality of property rights long before Ayn Rand was born.

Theory of value and property

Locke uses the word property in both broad and narrow senses. In a broad sense, it covers a wide range of human interests and aspirations; more narrowly, it refers to material goods. He argues that property is a natural right and it is derived from labour.

In Chapter V of his Second Treatise, Locke argues that the individual ownership of goods and property is justified by the labour exerted to produce those goods or utilize property to produce goods beneficial to human society.<20>

Locke stated his belief, in his Second Treatise, that nature on its own provides little of value to society; he provides the implication that the labour expended in the creation of goods gives them their value. This is used as supporting evidence for the interpretation of Locke's labour theory of property as a labour theory of value, in his implication that goods produced by nature are of little value, unless combined with labour in their production and that labour is what gives goods their value.<20>

Locke believed that ownership of property is created by the application of labour. In addition, he believed property precedes government and government cannot "dispose of the estates of the subjects arbitrarily." Karl Marx later critiqued Locke's theory of property in his own social theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Here is the thing, you do not realize

Marx is the OTHER bookend of Classic Economics.

Again I highly suggest a course in comparative government.

Oh and Friednam has far more in common with the MERCANTILISM that SMITH and LOCKE and HUME had early arguments about than you'd like to think... you know that MEDIEVAL mercantilism.

'gain in them famous words from Inigo Montoya, that word does not mean what you think it does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

[Cool Logic]

55. Definitions aside...

It is not the choice of economic systems that defines ethics; rather, ethics are defined by each individual's own moral code of values.

The superiority of Capitalism relates to the voluntary nature of its relationships. People are free to deal with one another or not, based on their own individual morals, judgments, values, and interests.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. So what definition of capitalism would you prefer?

Friedman's or Smith's? Yes there is a huge difference. For starters Smith is actually based on a system of morals, Friedman, not so much.

[Cool Logic]

63. "So what definition of capitalism would you prefer?" The one we do not have...

We must find a way to overcome the anti-free-market policies that that have been put in place to protect the interests of those represented by K-Street lobbyists. Our economy is controlled by means of a 71,684 page tax code and 134,723 pages of fedregs that our Representatives have enacted to to help the corporations represented by K-Street and impede their competition.

You see, when you are rich, powerful and connected, you get to write the § & ¶, that constitute the aforementioned pages. More pages = more § & ¶ = more power and control. You don't need 206,407 pages to define a free-market that is governed by supply and demand and judged by logic and reason.

The ethanol example: It is not logical to market a product that consumes more energy during the manufacturing process than it generates when it is used as fuel. Ethanol also generates more CO2 on the front end than it reduces when used a supplement to gasoline. Thus, ethanol would not exist in a true free-market economy.

However, it can and does exist in our 206,407 page anti-free-market economy.

Wen the market is over-regulated by the powerful, consumers are not allowed to choose from the best products. Rather, they get to choose the products produced by companies with the best lobbyists. Or, as is the case with ethanol, we don't have choice; we are forced to buy their products. Likewise, we are forced to buy their weapons for the wars that our Representatives wage for them.

When people are free to deal with one another and logic and reason are the only judges, it is the best products and the best values that win every time. This raises the standard of living, as well as the standard of ideas, for everyone.

If you can accept that there is nothing wrong with a man doing some good for himself while he does some good for the world, you will understand the morality of free-market Capitalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. So you mean Smith and yes Marx

ironic, isn't it?

I recommend you go get yourself a copy of Moral Sentiments, and start there, and follow that with The Wealth of Nations... and once you are done, perhaps follow up with some of Marx...

[Cool Logic]

69. ...been there, done that...

And I do not question Marx's intellectualism; rather, it is his judgment that is suspect.

For he fails to account for the idea of "consent of the governed" being subordinated to notion of "might makes right."

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. If you had you would not be singing this

absolute freedom of the market place which Smith actually thought was bunk...

But regulation can never be sold to true believers.

[Cool Logic]

78. "you would not be singing this absolute freedom of the market place..."

Perhaps you should adjust your brain's squelch...you are not hearing me.

For I unequivocally support regulating the free-market. But there are regulations, and then, there are "regulations'"

- Regulations are enacted to ensure the market is transparent, open and free, to ALL People.

- "Regulations" are enacted by D & R of DC Group, at the behest of their cronies and their market-place interests; and for the purpose of obstructing and inhibiting the market-place endeavors of the People.

Do you really believe they created a 71,684 page tax code and 134,723 pages of fedregs to "help the People?" I surely hope not, for that sort naiveté makes my head spin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Pick a lane and stay in it

Either you want REGULATION or you don't...

If you do, you are embracing Smith's Classical Economy. If you don't you are embracing Friedman's take on it.

[white_wolf]

51. There is a lot wrong with your thread.

First of all Feudalism could hardly be described as a tribal system. Tribes are among the most democratic of social organizations, feudalism is anything but democratic, though the rise of corporations has give rise to the term "neo-feudalism."

Your point about market relations being voluntary is debatable. I posted an entire thread on this yesterday "Why do we tolerate turning in our democratic rights to corporations." My basic premise is this: If your choices are work for me under my conditions and my rules or you and your family will lose your home,food, and healthcare, is that truly a voluntary exchange?

I say it is not voluntary, in fact it is very much like Feudalism because like the serfs you are giving up rights in exchange for protection. Instead of being protected from vikings you are being protected from death by hunger,the elements, or lack of healthcare. It isn't as open a form of coercion as being forced to work at gunpoint, but it is still coercion.

[Cool Logic]

65. "I say it is not voluntary,"

And I would agree if the present US economy is your frame of reference.

For we are forced to buy things we don't need, like ethanol and a never ending supply of weapons of war.

You make the mistake of blaming the free-market for our problems, when in fact it is the tightly controlled-market that our Representatives have allowed the K-Street boys and girls to create, that is the problem. Free-market Capitalism is not controlled by the rich or by the poor; rather, it is controlled by the simple law of supply and demand.

[Occulus]

71. You never played Bioshock, did you?

It rather artfully picks every last one of your delusions apart in truly fantastic style.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. You almost make me go... should pick it up

and play it

[Cool Logic]

79. Indeed, I have...But unlike you, I have retained the ability to separate fantasy from reality.

[white_wolf]

80. No you haven't.

If you could separate fantasy from reality you would not believe the libertarian lies that government is the problem and the vaunted free market will fix everything.

[Cool Logic]

103. A corrupt government is a serious problem--that is a statement of fact.

The free-market is not perfect...In order for market regulations to be moral and ethical, they must be based on objectively valid economic principles and they must be apply to EVERYONE equally.

We humans are not perfect either, nor are we perfectible; however, the process of evolution has only just begun. It was our intellectual and moral development that allowed humans to traverse beyond the boundaries of the Dark Ages and into the Age of Enlightenment. Likewise, it will be our intellectual and moral evolution that will enhance the ethics of free-market Capitalism.

[white_wolf]

104. Okay. You seem to have a problem with at least some government regulations. So tell me some of the

agencies you think we should get rid of.

[Cool Logic]

107. Well, before I endeavored to do any of that, i would throw away that broad brush of yours....

and sharpen my pencil. Obviously, the agency (legislation) that is responsible for ethanol would be at the top of my list. For as I previously stated, ethanol is not a legitimate free-market product.

And then, I would ask the People a couple of serious questions:

1. Should the the random whims of the President decide which issues justify the sacrifice of our sons, daughters and assets?

2. Or should we abide by the Constitution which delegates the power to declare war, to the American People's representatives?

I believe the power to declare war was vested in the Congress to ensure a rational contemplation of the grievances, as well as the projected cost of lives and resources of the People. Ultimately, Americans blame the thousands of lives wasted and trillions of $$$ borrowed and squandered on the President. However, the President is not authorized to initiate wars, his job is to command the troops, after Congress has made that decision.

That would be a good starting point...

[white_wolf]

108. Your points on war I completely agree with, however they have nothing to do

with regulatory agencies. I want to know which ones you want rid of.

[Cool Logic]

112. But they have quite a bit to do with immoral and/or unethical regulation...

of the marketplace. Let me remind you, we do not have a choice to decide whether or not to buy weapons of war. You will be forced to buy them, whether you like it or not. Moreover, wars and the accumulation of the weapons of war, have a enormous effect on the moral and fiscal health of our nation.

The question of which agencies I would alter or eliminate would first require a thorough analysis and evaluation of the agencies. After all, it would take quite some time to go through 206,407 pages of § & ¶.

Even so, I am quite certain that upon conclusion of my analysis, the necessary adjustments would be obvious. Is there anything on this list of agencies that you could do without?

A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies

Alphabetical list of organizations in the federal executive, legislative and judicial branches.

A
9-11 Commission (National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States)
Administration on Aging (AOA)
Administration for Children and Families (ACF)
Administrative Committee of the Federal Register
Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts
Advisory Council on Historic Preservation
African Development Foundation
Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ)
Agency for International Development
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Agricultural Marketing Service
Agricultural Research Service
Agriculture Department (USDA)
Air Force
Alabama
Alaska
Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (Treasury)
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Bureau (DOJ)
American Battle Monuments Commission
American Samoa
AMTRAK (National Railroad Passenger Corporation)
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
Appalachian Regional Commission
Architect of the Capitol
Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board (Access Board)
Arctic Research Commission
Arizona
Arkansas
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Arms Control and International Security
Army
Army Corps of Engineers
Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Interagency Coordinating Committee

B
Bankruptcy Courts
Barry M. Goldwater Scholarship and Excellence in Education Foundation
Bilingual Education and Minority Languages Affairs Office
Botanic Garden
Broadcasting Board of Governors (Voice of America, Radio/TV Marti and more)
Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade (Treasury)
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (Justice)
Bureau of the Census
Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA)
Bureau of Engraving and Printing
Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA)
Bureau of Industry and Security (formerly the Bureau of Export Administration)
Bureau of International Labor Affairs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Bureau of Labor Statistics
Bureau of Land Management (BLM)
Bureau of Prisons
Bureau of Public Debt
Bureau of Reclamation
Bureau of Transportation Statistics
California
Census Bureau
Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (formerly the Health Care Financing Administration)
Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigations Board
Chief Financial Officers Council
Chief Information Officers Council
Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee
Citizenship and Immigration Services Bureau (formerly Immigration and Naturalization Service)
Civilian Radioactive Waste Management
Coalition Provisional Authority (in Iraq)
Coalition Provisional Authority Inspector General
Coast Guard
Colorado
Commerce Department
Commission of Fine Arts
Commission on Civil Rights
Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction
Commission on International Religious Freedom
Committee for the Implementation of Textile Agreements
Committee for Purchase from People Who Are Blind or Severely Disabled
Commodity Futures Trading Commission
Community Development Office (Agriculture Department)
Community Oriented Policing Services (COPS)
Community Planning and Development
Comptroller of the Currency Office
Congressional Budget Office (CBO)
Connecticut
Constitution Center
Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC)
Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension Service
Coordinating Council on Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
Corporation for National and Community Service
Council of Economic Advisers
Council on Environmental Quality
Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces
Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit
Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims
Court of Federal Claims
Court of International Trade
Customs and Border Protection

D
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
Defense Commissary Agency
Defense Contract Audit Agency
Defense Contract Management Agency
Defense Department (DOD)
Defense Field Activities
Defense Finance and Accounting Service (DFAS)
Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA)
Defense Intelligence Agency
Defense Legal Services Agency
Defense Logistics Agency (DLA)
Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board
Defense Security Cooperation Agency
Defense Security Service
Defense Threat Reduction Agency
Delaware
Delaware River Basin Commission
Denali Commission
Department of Agriculture (USDA)
Department of Commerce (DOC)
Department of Defense (DOD)
Department of Defense Inspector General
Department of Education (ED)
Department of Energy (DOE)
Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)
Department of Homeland Security (DHS)
Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD)
Department of the Interior (DOI)
Department of Justice (DOJ)
Department of Labor (DOL)
Department of State (DOS)
Department of Transportation (DOT)
Department of the Treasury
Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)
Disability Employment Policy Office
District of Columbia
Domestic Policy Council
Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA)

E
Economic Analysis, Bureau of
Economic, Business and Agricultural Affairs (State Department)
Economic and Statistics Administration
Economic Development Administration
Economic Research Service
Education Department (ED)
Election Assistance Commission
Elementary and Secondary Education
Employee Benefits Security Administration (formerly the Pension and Welfare Benefits Administration)
Employment and Training Administration (Labor Department)
Employment Standards Administration
Endangered Species Committee
Energy Department (DOE)
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy
Energy Information Administration
Enforcement (Treasury Department)
Engraving and Printing, Bureau of
Environment, Safety and Health
Environmental Management (Energy Department)
Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
Executive Office for Immigration Review
Export Administration (now the Bureau of Industry and Security)
Export-Import Bank of the United States

F
Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity
Faith-Based and Community Initiatives Office
Farm Credit Administration
Farm Service Agency
Federal Accounting Standards Advisory Board
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA)
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
Federal Bureau of Prisons
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
Federal Citizen Information Center (FCIC)
Federal Consulting Group
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Federal Election Commission
Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
Federal Executive Boards
Federal Financial Institutions Examination Council
Federal Financing Bank
Federal Highway Administration
Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight
Federal Housing Finance Board
Federal Interagency Committee for the Management of Noxious and Exotic Weeds
Federal Interagency Council on Statistical Policy
Federal Judicial Center
Federal Labor Relations Authority
Federal Laboratory Consortium for Technology Transfer
Federal Law Enforcement Training Center
Federal Library and Information Center Committee
Federal Maritime Commission
Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service
Federal Mine Safety and Health Review Commission
Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
Federal Railroad Administration
Federal Reserve System
Federal Retirement Thrift Investment Board
Federal Trade Commission (FTC)
Federal Transit Administration
Federated States of Micronesia
Financial Management Service (Treasury Department)
Fish and Wildlife Service
Florida
Food and Drug Administration (FDA)
Food and Nutrition Service
Food, Nutrition and Consumer Services
Food Safety and Inspection Service
Foreign Agricultural Service
Foreign Claims Settlement Commission
Forest Service
Fossil Energy
Fulbright Foreign Scholarship Board

G
General Accounting Office (GAO)
General Services Administration (GSA)
Geological Survey (USGS)
Georgia
Global Affairs (State Department)
Global Communications Office (White House)
Government Printing Office (GPO)
Government National Mortgage Association
Grain Inspection, Packers and Stockyards Administration
Guam

H
Harry S. Truman Scholarship Foundation
Hawaii
Health and Human Services Department (HHS)
Health Resources and Services Administration
Holocaust Memorial Museum
Homeland Security Department (DHS)
House of Representatives
House Leadership Offices
House Office of Inspector General
House Office of the Clerk
House of Representatives Committees
House Organizations, Commissions and Task Forces
House Representatives on the Web
Housing and Urban Development Department (HUD)
Housing

I
Idaho
Illinois
Illinois and Michigan Canal National Heritage Corridor Commission
Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Bureau of
Immigration and Naturalization Service (Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services)
Indian Affairs, Bureau of
Indian Arts and Crafts Board
Indian Health Service
Indiana
Industrial College of the Armed Forces
Industry and Security, Bureau of (formerly the Bureau of Export Administration)
Information Resource Management College
Institute of Education Sciences
Institute of Museum and Library Services
Institute of Peace
Interagency Alternative Dispute Resolution Working Group
Interagency Council on Homelessness
Interagency Electronic Grants Committee
Inter-American Foundation
Interior Department
Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
International Broadcasting Bureau (IBB)
International Labor Affairs, Bureau of
International Trade Administration (ITA)
Iowa

J
James Madison Memorial Fellowship Foundation
Japan-United States Friendship Commission
John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts
Joint Board for the Enrollment of Actuaries
Joint Chiefs of Staff
Joint Forces Staff College
Judicial Circuit Courts of Appeal, by Geographic Location and Circuit
Judicial Panel on Multidistrict Litigation
Justice Department
Justice Programs Office (Juvenile Justice, Victims of Crime, Violence Against Women and more)
Justice Statistics, Bureau of

K
Kansas
Kentucky

L
Labor Department (DOL)
Labor Statistics, Bureau of
Land Management, Bureau of
Lead Hazard Control (Housing and Urban Development Department)
Legal Services Corporation
Library of Congress
Louisiana

M
Maine
Marine Corps
Marine Mammal Commission
Maritime Administration
Marketing and Regulatory Programs (Agriculture Department)
Marshall Islands
Marshals Service
Maryland
Massachusetts
Medicare Payment Advisory Commission (formerly the Physician Payment Review Commission and the Prospective Payment Assessment Commission)
Merit Systems Protection Board
Michigan
Midway Islands
Migratory Bird Conservation Commission
Mine Safety and Health Administration
Mineral Management Service
Minnesota
Minority Business Development Agency
Mint
Missile Defense Agency
Mississippi
Mississippi River Commission
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[hifiguy]

115. "Immoral" and "unethical" regulation of the marketplace??

The "marketplace" is a purely abstract construct created by human beings. As such, there is no "immoral" or "unethical" way to regulate it. If a regulation serves a rational purpose, like say, preventing people from dying of botulism in food or preventing the parasite class from defrauding the rest of the populace, it is useful and proper. Ye gads..... Go back to your dogeared Ayn Rand books you ubermensch wannabee.

[Cool Logic]

118. Your response is saturated with emotional ambiguities...

Question: Is the existence of ethanol in the market a result of moral and ethical regulations?

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. You do know the energy companies

had quite a bit of subsidies when they were young RIGHT? In fact, they still have them. Tell me is that your idea of a pure free market? Ethanols and yes SOLAR, fall in the same category of young industries. Unlike you, governments do NOT run anything pure. See the Atlantic right now, that little itty, bitty storm... it is probably due to global weather change... so them young industries will need subsidies... while I will agree with you... the MATURE ONES should not have them. So are you lobbying congress to make then rid of the oil ones?

Be consistent man.

I am sure FEMA is not one agency you like though... I mean it violates all kinds of pull yourself by bootstraps libertarianism.

[Cool Logic]

126. I am deadly consistent...K-Street should not be permitted to turn any loser into a winner...

Ethanol consumes more energy during the production process that it generates when it is used as a fuel. It also produces more CO2 on the front side, than it reduces when used as a supplement to gasoline.

Tell me, Ma'am, what is the moral or philosophical principle that justifies ethanol subsidies?

As an aside: Please...don't try to sell the notion that hurricanes are a result of climate change. For this storm is reminiscent of a couple of storms that occurred in the 50s. Climate change exists...it's happening...however, it is not the cause of each and every weather event. For weather happens too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Then standard oil should have never

Become a successful industry.

Alas even Adam Smith and Ricardo understood WHY you support EMERGING industries. It is actually VERY CAPITALIST in the classical sense.

As to this storm being connected to global weather change... Increased severity of weather EVENTS is predicted by the science... Or should science also run on Friedman like principles?

[Cool Logic]

128. You didn't answer my question...

thus, I must assume your justification is based on your feelings.

The problem with subsidies is that once they are in place, they develop constituencies that grow up around and become dependent on the fedgov teet. Thus, they become difficult to end when they are no longer needed.

Similarly, special interests represented by K-Street are often able to convince your Representatives to provide them a teet when none is required. These types of subsides corrupt the free-market and allow special interests to gain an advantage over the People.

Why do you support policies that favor corporations who can afford to buy a floor or two of lobbyists?

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. I did...and smith saw it as MORAL to fund emerging

Indusies for the common good...

He also believed in brekng up subsidies and monopolies

Of course k street is our modern day version of lobbying...in his day it also existed. I guess, by your logic, he'd be a K street lobbyist.

By the way all those charges of emotion on me and others tells me that you ARE THE ONE FULL OF EMOTION. Why is that? Not having us praying at Friedman's altar makes you angry? I am betting I am far more of a capitalist than you are...in the classic sense that is. Alas I don't think Friedman was right...and like MERCANTILISM it led to the same exact problems that yes, Adam Smith was critical off in the Wealth and why the famous hand comes withn so many caveats.

[Cool Logic]

130. "The common good"...okay...

So, how does subsidizing ethanol, a product that provides a negative benefit, promote the common good?

Long ago, the creation of glass, caused candle makers to loose market share. This was due to the fact that candles were no longer needed inside during the day. The candle makers objected and sought relief from the King, in the form a glass tax.

Would you (or Smith) consider the candle makers request to be morally valid?

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Then we had people who lost their work

to the rise of industry... you know the individual nail maker, that did all lost his job to the factory system described in the wealth.

And some of them took it up onto their hands, we call them ludites

And were those candle makers K street petitioners?

As to the moral thing to do, according to Smith, is a new line of employment... we call that retraining in the modern world... in which the wealth of the nation is assured as new skills and new technologies will rise that will be more efficient. THey should be taken care off in the mans of sustenance though... as the hand fails when morality or planning are ignored. Realize that Smith was a very religious man, who believed in a beneficent watchmaker but that is another story.

You are against all regulations...

As to Ethanol, it is not ethanol, it is we need to develop green technologies. I prefer ethanol generation from other MORE EFFICIENT sources that do not impact the food supply... but that is a POLICY DISCUSSION, not whether it is a young industry or not.Or whether we are near or at Peak oil and we need alternate sources or the civilization WILL collapse.

You'd rather no young industry be given any help. And that is the rub.

You prefer, from your posts an economy that leads to a mercantile system, aka Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics, with a little An Ryand to sprinkle the soup.

[Cool Logic]

133. "You are against all regulations..."...all regulations that serve no purpose...

other than to provide your Representatives cronies a leg up on the People.

Thomas Edison was one of the most creative people who ever lived. However, he was an immoral an unethical businessman. The electrical system that he invented as based on DC voltage, which requires the load to in the proximity of the source. Subsequently, George Westinghouse invented an electrical system that was based on AC voltage, which could be stepped up to very high voltages with transformers, sent over thinner and cheaper wires, and stepped down again, for distribution to users. This permitted the load to be hundreds of miles from the source.

Obviously, AC was the better system for distributing electricity to the People. Thus, Edison began a propaganda campaign in an effort to convince the People that AC was too dangerous to use. He presented his argument to Congress and implored them to enact legislation to "protect" the People.

Edison was a legendary and powerful man; and he sought to enhance his power by means of regulating AC voltage out of existence. Fortunately, for the People, Congress did not apply the regulatory philosophy of nadinbrzezinski.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. IN fact it ain't really worth it

still :wow:

[Cool Logic]

136. "So the government was responsible for THAT propaganda campaign?"

No, it was Edison, the lobbyist, who was responsible for that propaganda...K-Street wasn't up and running yet.

BTW, my comments were not meant as personal attack; rather, the purpose was to demonstrate that all regulations are not moral. For I construed your words as being supportive of pretty much any regulation. In any case, if you took offense, please accept my apology.

[white_wolf]

73. Ahh yes the old libetrain line "If we just get the government out of the way the free-market will

solve all our problems."

[Cool Logic]

83. I am surprised by that comment white_wolf...

For you did not appear to be an erector of straw-men.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1806281&mesg_id=1809210

[white_wolf]

85. First of all you've been talking about the free-market this entire thread.

Secondly if you want to see a strawman look here: "Socialists abhor independent property, independent thought, independent work...and an independent human being. As to this quote: "The socialist who dreams of Utopia intellectually impaired, yet benevolent individual." You think Albert Einstein was intellectually impaired, you know the guy who changed our understanding of the universe and also wrote this: http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism

[Cool Logic]

94. First, I have...and I tend to err on the side of more, not less, in matters that concern liberty.

Secondly, my comments regarding socialists are nothing more than the acknowledgment of that which is self-evident. For socialism does indeed call for the rights of the individual to be subordinated to the so-called "rights" of the collective. Thus, the independence and self-determination of individuals does not exist under socialism.

It took thousands of years of philosophical development to establish the moral idea that property precedes government and that ALL individuals are equal and independent. No matter what sort of euphemisms are used, the implementation of socialism entails the abolition of property rights, and by extension, the abolition of human rights. Thus, socialism necessitates the abandonment of morality.

Albert Einstein was a great physicist; and he proved the validity of E = mc2. He did not prove the validity of socialism, for slavery is not a morally valid human condition in this universe.

[white_wolf]

95. Here we go.

The free markets do not make free people. The vast majority of Americans live in wage-slavery to giant corporations. Socialism is all about freedom. We want people to be free to work in the jobs they wish and to have the full fruit of the labor. We oppose the "rights" of CEOs to take the fruit of someone's labor, which is what profits are. The CEO of Ford did not build the cars that are making his money,so why does he have a right to part of the profits? He is stealing the fruit of someone's labor.

You do realize that property rights have never been agreed upon. Thomas Paine questioned them in Agrarian Justice, David Hume questioned them, and many others. You think the bourgeois property rights are sacred because you have been raised to think that, but people in a Feudal system thought the same about the property rights of Nobles, yet the bourgeois revolution tore that notion asunder.

As to Einstein, you implied socialists were intellectually impaired, he was just an example to prove your point wrong.

[Cool Logic]

100. "The vast majority of Americans live in wage-slavery to giant corporations."

Sir, that is simply not a true statement.

Small firms:

-Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
-Employ just over half of all private sector employees.
-Pay 44 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
-Have generated 64 percent of net new jobs over the past 15 years.
-Create more than half of the nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).
-Hire 40 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists, engineers, and computer programmers).
-Are 52 percent home-based and 2 percent franchises.
-Made up 97.3 percent of all identified exporters and produced 30.2 percent of the known export value in FY 2007.
-Produce 13 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms; these patents are twice as likely as large firm -patents to be among the one percent most cited.

We want people to be free to work in the jobs they wish and to have the full fruit of the labor.

Socialism appears to involve quite a few undefined and ambiguous notions such as "wishing." If I wish to be an astronaut, do I have the "right" to require NASA to hire me? Additionally, do I have the "right" to demand a starting wage of $1 trillion/yr?

Under Capitalism, an individual's success depends on an independent assessment of the value of their work and on the rationality of those who appreciate that value. When people are free to deal with one another and logic and reason are the only judges, it is the best products and the best values that win every time.

You do realize that property rights have never been agreed upon.

On the contrary, individual rights and property rights are unidentified and recognized by the US's founding documents. The Constitution, is a limitation on the government. It is not a charter for government power; rather, it is a charter that protects the People from violation of their rights to Life, Liberty and Property.

[white_wolf]

102. Small firms.

Okay, first of all. How are you defining small firms? A lot on the right define them by the number of owners a company has. Secondly, small firms still exploit their workers by depriving them of the full vaule of their labor.

Socialism appears to involve quite a few undefined and ambiguous notions such as "wishing." If I wish to be an astronaut, do I have the "right" to require NASA to hire me? Additionally, do I have the "right" to demand a starting wage of $1 trillion/yr? No. You clearly do not understand socialism. If you want to be an astronaut in a socialist society and are fit for it,willing to work at it and undergo the training than yes you could be one. As for the trillion dollars wage comment you clearly have no understand of socialism. Socialism awards people according to their work. "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his work."

Under Capitalism, an individual's success depends on an independent assessment of the value of their work and on the rationality of those who appreciate that value. When people are free to deal with one another and logic and reason are the only judges, it is the best products and the best values that win every time. Now that is out of Ayn Rand. "I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason. If one recognizes the supremacy of reason and applies it consistently, all the rest follows." (http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/reason.html)

[eridani]

89. Property is a natural right derived from mass murder.

You don't suppose that the enclosure of the commons in England was voluntary, do you?

[Puregonzo1188]

97. "Capitalism led to the end of slavery" This is a funny quote for a variety of reasons---

First, you seem to be using John Locke to back it up--Locke wrote the Constitution for the Carolina colonies, which fyi had slavery.

For Locke the right to property is derived from labor, in that something held in the commons of nature becomes the individuals when he mixes his labor with it. While that works in some sort of pre-industrial agrarian state of nature (that never exactly existed) how does that account for a modern industrial society that depends on wage labor? You know where property is not in anyway derived from labor, and the laborer owns neither the means by which he produces or what he produces, and instead merely sells his labor as a commodity. While many of the classic republicans did in fact opposed wage labor as they thought it was a form of a slavery (an idea that begins I believe with Aristotle and continued really until the late 19th century) I'm not sure if Locke ever commented on it as his labor theory of property was mostly just a philosophical justification for the appropriation of indigenous lands and Spanish colonial possessions by the British Empire. Locke's not really the great philosopher of freedom people think he is.

The second problem with your quote is this--capitalism and slavery coexisted for a fairly significant times and the former greatly enabled the rise of the latter. Obviously, raw materials from the British colonies were used in the textile factories in the mainland, but it actually goes much deeper than that. Capital used by industrialist was borrowed from banks, all of which were able to do so do the wealth put into the banks by slaveholders. In deed, urbanization was impacted by slavery. Slavery require slave ships, which in turn led the rise of major shipbuilding systems. The modern economic system today as we know it could not have arisen without slavery. Slavery enabled the urbanization and industrialization of Britain and thus the rise of capitalism as well. I would highly recommend you read Eric Williams very rigorous study of the subject matter, aptly titled Capitalism and Slavery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. And such a book can be gotten for FREE from the nook store

Thanks for the recommendation.

:thumbsup:

One turn requires another. White Cargo, dealing with the other slave trade is highly recommendable.

[Puregonzo1188]

110. Oh really? I read it for a college class a few years back and the professor put the required

parts up online where students in the class could access it, so I read it that way, but I was unsure if it was still copyrighted.

And I will have to check out White Cargo--that looks like quite the read.

[Cool Logic]

111. Many of the moral ideas that we take for granted were products of The Age of Enlightenment.

In a civilized society, slavery is considered immoral. Thus, it is not possible for slavery to exist in a true free-market Capitalist economy. Remember, it was the agrarian, feudal South that maintained slavery subsequent to the evolution of moral standards that resulted in slavery being abolished in most the civilized world. On the other hand, it was the industrial, Capitalistic North that eradicated it.

Socialism says that humans have no right to exist for their own gain and that an individual's life and work do not belong to him. Now, I ask you, what is the moral or philosophical principle that justifies that?

Furthermore, humans must sustain their lives by the application of their intellect to natural resources and/or the products of natural resources; or, by means of the creation of intellectual property, e.g., the poet or the philosopher. Again, I ask you, if a human has no rights, or claim to the product of their efforts, are that not, in fact, living as slaves?

Property rights are protected in the current laws of most states, usually in their constitution or in a bill of rights. Protection is also prescribed in the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 17, and in the European Convention on Human Rights.

Slavery is a violation, by law, of liberty and property.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Which Enlightenment?

And are you a student of Peter Gay or Hilferband?

I mean are you talking of the Scottish? The English, The French, the American, the Mexican, the Bolivian... which Enlightenment?

Yeah I know Peter Gay says it is one but recent history of ideas shit knows it really is not... so which one?

And yes the AMERICAN Enlightenment did not have a complete issue with slavery, or did you miss the Great Compromise in the debates over the Constitution?

For the record, in case you have missed this, I am also NOT a follower of that other religion either.

[Unvanguard]

41. What does your ability to own factories have to do with human rights?

I'm rather curious.

[white_wolf]

45. Libertarians often confuse the right to exploit with the human rights.

[a la izquierda]

15. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

ETA: http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

[marmar]

20. +3000

[Cool Logic]

40. Well, you don't have very much to say...

[a la izquierda]

42. I spelled out what socialists believe...

via a socialist website. They say it better than anyone else. It's their mantra.
ETA: I'm writing lectures. I don't have time to water down socialism for you. You, I hope, can read.

[Selatius]

53. From the link he just posted. Allow me to quote the last section:

Instead of wanting to take away people’s private property, socialists want more people to have more private property than ever before.

There are two kinds of private property. There is property which is personal in nature, consumer’s goods, used for private enjoyment. Then there is the kind of private property which is not personal in nature, property in the means of production. This kind of property is not used for private enjoyment, but to produce the consumer’s goods which are.

Socialism does not mean taking away the first kind of private property, e.g. your suit of clothes; it does mean taking away the second kind of private property, e.g. your factory for making suits of clothes. It means taking away private property in the means of production from the few so that there will be much more private property in the means of consumption for the many. That part of the wealth which is produced by workers and taken from them in the form of profits would be theirs, under socialism, to buy more private property, more suits of clothes, more furniture, more food, more tickets to the movies.

More private property for use and enjoyment. No private property for oppression and exploitation. That’s socialism.

Huberman and Sweezy, "Introduction to Socialism," Monthly Review

[Cool Logic]

59. Socialism has brought economic paralysis or collapse to every country that has ever tried it.

The degree of socialization is directly correlated to the degree of disaster.

On the other hand:

In years 1000–1820 world economy grew sixfold, 50 % per person. After capitalism had started to spread more widely, in years 1820–1998 world economy grew 50-fold, i.e., 9-fold per person.<64> In most capitalist economic regions such as Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, the economy grew 19-fold per person even though these countries already had a higher starting level, and in Japan, which was poor in 1820, to 31-fold, whereas in the rest of the world the growth was only 5-fold per person.<64>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

[marmar]

75. Wow. Wikipedia as holy writ !!!!

[Selatius]

82. The degree of socialization is directly correlated to the degree of disaster?

I guess the United States became an abject failure post-New Deal, since the New Deal programs were the largest ever socialist policies ever instituted by the country.

[eridani]

90. Capitalism brings collapse to those societies that are aacrificed so that conquering societies

--can be more prosperous.

[WinkyDink]

23. Oh, but the Libertarian is a veritable GENIUS, right? Peddle the greed elsewhere.

[Unvanguard]

31. Socialists don't abhor any of those things, and never have.

I'll never understand why people peddle that sort of nonsense. There are legitimate economic criticisms of socialism; I think they're wrong, but they're legitimate. This sort of argument, however--"Socialists hate freedom"--is just silly.

[Cool Logic]

60. "This sort of argument, however--"Socialists hate freedom"--is just silly."

The abolition of property rights = the abolition of human rights = the abolition of freedom.

If socialists don't hate freedom, why do the advocate for its prohibition?

Capitalism:
You have two cows.
You sell both so that you can invest in a new dairy company.
After it does well, you sell you stock and buy a cow farm.

After that does well, you take out a loan using cows as capitol and build a milk manufacturing factory.
After your milk becomes #1, you sell the company and retire to Hawaii with your millions of $$$.

Socialism:
You have two cows.
You share two cows with your neighbors.
You and your neighbors argue about who has the most "ability" and who has the most "need."
Meanwhile, no one works, no one gets any milk, and the cows drop dead of starvation.

Communism:
You have two cows.
They try to swim to Florida.

[hifiguy]

61. When you're scraping the bottom of the barrel for

reichwing chain e-mails you have totally been smacked down. Fold your tent and move on. :eyes:

[Cool Logic]

67. Actually, tents are for nomadic socialist tribes...

The Capitalist builds his society on the rock solid moral foundation of individual rights.

[Unvanguard]

62. That's some truly impressive argumentation there.

:eyes:

[Cool Logic]

64. Well then, how about a petri dish...?

The evidence is incontrovertible, Capitalism, is the best socioeconomic system for dealing with the imperfect nature of the human beings. The contrast between North and South Korea is a perfect example.

[white_wolf]

76. You might have a point if N.K was a socialist society.

However, since all references to their communism in their Constitution has been replaced with Junche and the works of Marx are banned, they are certainly not socialist. Oh, and Cuba has greatly improved the living standards of its citizens since the Revolution and the standards of living are better than in capitalist Haiti.

[white_wolf]

74. The abolition of your rights to exploit other human beings does not equal the abolitoin of freedom.

You are sounding like the slaveholders who argued that they had rights to own people as property.

[eridani]

91. How did the capitalist get two cows? By enclusure of the commons n/t

[Cool Logic]

105. "How did the capitalist get two cows?"

By means of the application of the sciences of genetics and domestication, to the evolutionary process.

[white_wolf]

106. You are aware that domestication was around long before capitalism, correct?

As was selective breeding.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Do you even know what the enclosure acts are?

No serous, do you?

[eridani]

88. There is no such thing as title to property that is not backed by mass murder

Particulary true of Latin America.

[Cool Logic]

114. Did you murder anyone during the acquisition of your property...?

[white_wolf]

117. How many Natives did the European powers murder when they claimed this continent?

Secondly the capitalist healthcare industry kills 30,000 people a year.

[eridani]

124. Original title was acquired by mass murder. Some of the people who displaced

--the Duwamish tribe platted out the land and sold it to someone, who sold it to someone, who sold it to someone, who sold it to my husband's mother, who sold it to us.

If I steal your car, sell it to a fence, who sells it to someone, who sells it to someone, etc., how many subsequent transactions does it take to render the original theft no longer theft?

[indurancevile]

92. what crap. production & work are already socialized, & there is no "independent thought" or

"independent work".

in fact, independent thought is an impossibility. thought is always social, and human beings raised without others do not become human.

[Cool Logic]

113. Really...? I would be interested to hear your hypothesis...

a propos the impossibility of "independent thought" and "independent work."

[indurancevile]

119. it's not a hypothesis. it's obvious to anyone who's not delusional.

there is no "thinker" not dependent on a constellation of pre-existing conditions which include being born and enculturated into a particular family, community, society, time & space, all of which create this "thinker" and his "thought" which some, then, in their delusion posit as "independent". Which delusion is also a dependent condition.

[Odin2005]

109. Your Hish School Civics class brainwashed you well, you RW troll.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Right. The Church is well known for it's support of demccracy and freedom.

Which is why it quashed Liberation Theology by it's members in Latin America.

[kenny blankenship]

13. Certainly people raised up out of misery would have less "need" for the solace of the Church

Got to keep those misery mills a-churnin', nicht wahr Ratfinger?

[B Calm]

17. Seeing how the Vatican embraced the NAZI'S during WW 2, this does not come as a surprise.

[Dawson Leery]

18. Herr Ratzinger is dreaming of the dark ages where corrupt

rapists ruled the world demanding morality for the masses (and enforcing it with torture).

[Raksha]

96. Very well stated, and not an exaggeration.

The Religious Right has the same values.

[jwirr]

19. Question: How do you search for the posts of another DUer?

[WinkyDink]

26. Yes, I'd like to know, too.

[EFerrari]

30. Only way I know is to search the user name or journal. n/t

[hlthe2b]

32. yes... that's about it...

[WinkyDink]

22. Once upon a time there was a Social Justice arm..........

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Read on Liberation Theoology and how the Vatican

fought it.

The Church is inherently conservative, at times reactionary.

[Heywood J]

93. I have but one word to the Catholic Church and the Vatican.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ratlines_%28World_War_II%29">Ratlines

Come back to me when your hands aren't so dirty, Ratzi.

[L. Coyote]

98. Breaking News, 100 million dead, Catholic Church seen as dangerous to the Americas

It will take another 500 years to recover from them conquistadors!

[xchrom]

99. very interesting -- what happened in this thread.

i abhor the libertarian ideal.

[devilgrrl]

132. I abhor that all the alerts will be ignored

:mad:

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. why they need to be challenged

and the third way is the third way...

[dameocrat67]

123. Whats new? They defended Pinochet!

n/t