US involvement in Libya: Good or bad?

[panader0]

What does DU think? Was our involvement illegal and wrong or did the US help bring down a bad guy?

[theoldman]

1. All wars are illegal.

We helped to bring down a bad guy without a loss of American lives. Clinton did the same when he was president.

[denem]

3. Including 1775–1783

Or Britain/ France's declaration in 1939.?

Peace pacts on the other hand are always legal. Molotov–Ribbentrop, anyone?

Fuck "Legal" IMO

[Cool Logic]

2. The good or the bad of it all remains to be determined...

For history is written in years...even decades; not months.

[Selatius]

4. I'm holding off judgment until several years down the road.

If the Libyans make the same mistake as Iranians and establish a theocratic dictatorship, it would be tragic, especially for women in that country. If they establish a modern republic with the right to vote guaranteed to both genders, we may have something good to talk about.

[joshcryer]

5. That's the safe position, I can respect that.

I personally think the Libyan people have hearts of gold and are going to try to achieve greatness. The question is will the international community allow them?

[Arctic Dave]

7. "hearts of gold"? LOLOLOLOL

Really, the same ones that were killing and looting just like MG forces were. That is quite some measurement you put on them.

[IamK]

9. I saw video of some people sweeping up the glass and shell casings...

the bar has to be set pretty low during a civil war...

[joshcryer]

11. A dentist doesn't take up arms and start an underground movement in a besieged city...

...unless said dentist does not have a heart of at least silver. ;)

Gold may be me just being endeared to these amazing people.

[Arctic Dave]

12. Or maybe he is being paid to do it.

Either way, we will never know.


In the mean time, don't drive at night with those rose colored glasses.

[joshcryer]

15. That would be reasonable if these stories were not common.

It's across the spectrum, but you probably don't even give a shit. It's got to be paid CIA shills, etc.

This is fundamentally your argument: http://bit.ly/pRqQtg

[Arctic Dave]

16. Small section of the people have taken up arms.

The rest are just watching.

If this description bothers you then maybe you should rethink your position.

[joshcryer]

17. A small section of doctors, commoners, electricians, plumbers, welders, bakers, hair dressers?

Untruths don't bother me. It only makes me pity those who believe them.

[Arctic Dave]

18. "commoners" LOL

You could find a crosscut of society that hates puppies, not exactly a game winning strategy.


Hell, that could be a line up of tea partiers.

[riverwalker]

19. just like MG??

They don't sound like crazed, bloodthirsty barbarian berserkers to me.

http://www.ntclibya.com/InnerPage.aspx?SSID=4&ParentID=3&LangID=1

A vision of a democratic Libya

1. Draft a national constitution that clearly defines its nature, essence and purpose and establishes legal, political, civil, legislative, executive and judicial institutions. The constitution will also clarify the rights and obligations of citizens in a transparent manner, thus separating and balancing the three branches of legislative, executive and judicial powers.

2. Form political organisations and civil institutions including the formation of political parties, popular organisations, unions, societies and other civil and peaceful associations.

3. Maintain a constitutional civil and free state by upholding intellectual and political pluralism and the peaceful transfer of power, opening the way for genuine political participation, without discrimination.

4. Guarantee every Libyan citizen, of statutory age, the right to vote in free and fair parliamentary and presidential elections, as well as the right to run for office.

5. Guarantee and respect the freedom of expression through media, peaceful protests, demonstrations and sit-ins and other means of communication, in accordance with the constitution and its laws in a way that protects public security and social peace.

6. A state that draws strength from our strong religious beliefs in peace, truth, justice and equality.

7. Political democracy and the values of social justice, which include:

a. The nation’s economy to be used for the benefit of the Libyan people by creating effective economic institutions in order to eradicate poverty and unemployment – working towards a healthy society, a green environment and a prosperous economy.

b. The development of genuine economic partnerships between a strong and productive public sector, a free private sector and a supportive and effective civil society, which overstands corruption and waste.

c. Support the use of science and technology for the betterment of society, through investments in education, research and development, thus enabling the encouragement of an innovative culture and enhancing the spirit of creativity. Focus on emphasising individual rights in a way that guarantees social freedoms that were denied to the Libyan people during the rule of dictatorship. In addition to building efficient public and private institutions and funds for social care, integration and solidarity, the state will guarantee the rights and empowerment of women in all legal, political, economic and cultural spheres.

d. A constitutional civil state which respects the sanctity of religious doctrine and condemns intolerance, extremism and violence that are manufactured by certain political, social or economic interests. The state to which we aspire will denounce violence, terrorism, intolerance and cultural isolation; while respecting human rights, rules and principles of citizenship and the rights of minorities and those most vulnerable. Every individual will enjoy the full rights of citizenship, regardless of colour, gender, ethnicity or social status.

8. Build a democratic Libya whose international and regional relationships will be based upon:

a. The embodiment of democratic values and institutions which respects its neighbours, builds partnerships and recognises the independence and sovereignty of other nations. The state will also seek to enhance regional integration and international co-operation through its participation with members of the international community in achieving international peace and security.

b. A state which will uphold the values of international justice, citizenship, the respect of international humanitarian law and human rights declarations, as well as condemning authoritarian and despotic regimes. The interests and rights of foreign nationals and companies will be protected. Immigration, residency and citizenship will be managed by government institutions, respecting the principles and rights of political asylum and public liberties.

c. A state which will join the international community in rejecting and denouncing racism, discrimination and terrorism while strongly supporting peace, democracy and freedom.

[Arctic Dave]

20. I don't see the part about shooting burning and bodies?

Is that in the addendum?

LOL, try again, these flowery words arent doing it in reality.

Try reading the US Constitution, really awesome stuff, too bad the government ignores it and does what it wants to.

[democrat2thecore]

13. well said - nt

[Firebrand Gary]

6. Good.

We need to help them with our expertise, they do not need us running their country however. We can help, with governing.

[GeorgeGist]

8. False dichtomy ...

but given America's usual track record, it's probably bad.

[Puregonzo1188]

10. Bad for the Libyans.

[Waiting For Everyman]

14. Helped bring down a bad guy.

Good job and well done so far.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Well, it kept the mighty Libyan navy from invading San Francisco.

And, kept us safe from a skeery bogeyman.

[KittyWampus]

22. It is what it is.