So, the developments in Libya are a GOOD thing...right?

[brooklynite]

...because I've been told by Cynthia McKinney that this is "all about the oil" (never mind that Libyan oil is already extracted by western companies), and that Hugo Chavez, patron saint of the socialist left, is solidly in Gadhafi's corner.

[Unvanguard]

1. I'm part of the "socialist left" and Hugo Chavez is NOT my patron saint. n/t

[socialshockwave]

3. I swear sometimes

that good ol' Hugo is the patron saint of half of DU - with all the people who come forward and defend him when he makes another bone-headed decision.

Next on his list will be; "Kim Jong il saved North Korea!"

[EFerrari]

7. Hugo Chavez is against imperialist interventions because they turn out badly

for the people and history agrees with him and not with you.

[socialshockwave]

9. Trust me

I'm not saying Imperialism is a good thing. It's not.

But Chavez blames EVERYTHING that he doesn't like on imperialism.

The bad economy? Imperialism. Gaddafi being a dictator? Imperialism. Why his toast is burnt? Imperialism.

[EFerrari]

13. You seem to know very little about Chavez so I"ll pass, thanks. n/t

[socialshockwave]

14. A dictator who claims to fight for the worker

while taking more and more for himself and grabbing more and more power is still a dictator.

[dameocrat67]

16. he has been elected 3 times in internationally monitored elections

poverty has dropped dramatically since he took office so he is doing better for the venezuelan people than the conservative right wingers that traditionally ran it.

[EFerrari]

26. And my point is made, thank you. nt

[sabrina 1]

31. You display the result of Imperialist propaganda magnificently.

Jimmy Carter, among others, would definitely be sad to see your post considering how much time and effort he put into observing Venezuela's elections. I only wish ours were as legitimate.

Chavez has been elected by a majority of Venezuelan people in elections that are far more legitimate than the ones we hold here, and there is simply no disputing that. Even his enemies do not claim that he was not democratically elected, because of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

[scheming daemons]

10. Hugo Chavez is against tyrants being overthrown because he knows he could be next

...as soon as the Venezuelan people get the courage to do so.

[malaise]

47. +1,000 n/t

[MADem]

39. He's a fucking cancer-ridden dictator, is what he is.

Let's call it what it is. Between the Chavez champions, the Fidel fanatics, and the Perry partisans, I do not understand why they call this place DEMOCRATIC anything...!

[socialshockwave]

2. Apparently, people banding together to overthrow

a dictator who threatened to slaughter a quarter million people and someone who provides safe haven to terrorists and ENCOURAGES it world wide is "imperialist oppression".

[scheming daemons]

4. Only to people who are spinning themselves into the ground to deny Obama credit

To rational individuals, this is a VERY good thing.

[socialshockwave]

5. Yeah, really.

I say that the Libyan people are heroes, not foreign-backed mercenaries like some of the mindless communist-talking points spewed here sometimes.

[MADem]

41. It's fantastic to anyone who understands the region. To people who listen to the ranting bullshit

of redshirted, fat asswipes in South America, it's probably not so much fun.

The fall of Libya is great news.

[MADem]

40. You can't fix stupid--and people who root for thug-dictators are STUPID. NT

[EFerrari]

6. Shouldn't we wait until they're past the knocking down statues phase

before drawing that conclusion?

[dameocrat67]

8. we cant afford the war

and the outcome is yet to be established at this point. i am guessing he will install some neoliberal ass like the one we installed in Afghanistan, and the one we propped up next door in Egypt.

may very well have been fought for oil.

this war did not help our economy and the poor are still being attacked.

i am not impressed. sorry.

you neocon dems and the rest of us do not share many values.

[scheming daemons]

11. This war cost next to nothing

A small amount of US air power, then handed over to NATO.

No US troops on the ground.


This was as cheap an operation as the US military has had since Grenada.


A group of people who were oppressed are now free. That's something that "progressives" used to champion.

[dameocrat67]

12. not since it was a war of choice so more will be justified

dont tell me the bombings costed no money, money that the poor and middle class wont pay with cuts to schools, social security and unemployment benefits.

[Amonester]

17. Wrong. The TNC has made clear that all costs will be paid back.

Nice try.

[dameocrat67]

18. who is paying for every bomb dropped and the gas to run the machines?

where are you getting this.

[Amonester]

19. They promised every NATO nations' expenses will be paid back.

1. Using Lybia's already frozen assets.
2. If not sufficient, the balance using future oil sales profits.

[dameocrat67]

20. oh so its libyan oil that is paying for this?

hmm!! maybe mckinney was right then, so why attack her, since you are clearly installing a regime that will give us their oil and not use it to help the libyan people.

[Amonester]

22. The 'new' gobermint of Lybia (hey, they already have Ambassadors)...

Since there will be one, the gobermint of Lybia will have a fiscal budget in which part of it will be used to pay back their national debt...

Silly concept (that must be 'new' to you, I guess...).

[dameocrat67]

25. so this was done with an agreement of putting the libyan people in debt

slavery! Cool! I feel so good now!

[Amonester]

30. Good for you.

Newsflash: The rebels ASKED for help! They got it! Then they were so happy they said they will pay that help back IF they were to be successful!

Looks like they were successful (so far)!

To sum it up: NO NATO casualties AND NO NATO cost AND another billionnaire plutocrat KILLER gone to hell!

I feel good too! :hi:

[dameocrat67]

32. it is not good for the people if their socalled rebels are selling them

out

neocons suck!

[Amonester]

33. Alright. You win.

Happy?

[EFerrari]

28. Like Iraq would pay for itself?

I swear to god, Gore Vidal is right when he calls us the United States of Amnesia.

[Amonester]

43. Vidal was right. That said...

I hope you can acknowledge the difference between that and the lies that the cheney/bush/rumsferatu cartel told for invading a sovereign nation in which, no "rebels coalition" explicitely asked for NATO's help (many NATO countries DID NOT part in the illegal invasion, BTW), so Iraq NEVER PROMISED to pay back the cost (and why should they? Have they ASKED to be INVADED???)

Bye now.

[EFerrari]

45. Libya was not Iraq, thank God, with all the attendant death and destruction.

Or maybe I should say, it isn't yet because I've no good grip on what follows this destabilization.

But having said that, there was plenty of fabrication from NATO and from the UN and even from the ICC, who issued that warrant for Qaddafi based on the charge of mass rapes when Amnesty International told them there was no evidence of mass rape and when the woman who purportedly ran a survey (which was the ICC's evidence) couldn't produce any evidence that she had conducted that survey.

And, am I misremembering or didn't that fake Iraqi group run by Chalabi beg us to invade Iraq?

This situation isn't that one but the process is roughly the same, just not on the same scale and for THAT, I am grateful.

[Webster Green]

21. This action was relatively cheap.

No "missing" pallets of stacks of $100 bills. Very little bombing. Other NATO members actually did most of the heavy lifting during the operation.

I am as anti-war as anyone, but this seems like it was the correct thing to do.

[dameocrat67]

24. according to another that responded nato will pay with libyan oil

which means the libyan people will likely be impoverished with a prowestern authoritarian leader as opposed to a nationalist one who will make sure the Libyan people profit from the oil.

my guess is this revolution wont hold and there will be a counter revolution in another 2 years because the libyan people will be pissed the new regime sold them out. that is what happened with all the color codeds.

[Webster Green]

29. We shall see.

The oil is already on the world market & managed by western interests. It remains to be seen what kind of government they wind up with, and how it will impact the people.

[dflprincess]

15. Whether they are now free or not depends on what kind of

government the rebels create. It could be that one dictator has been swapped for another - one that won't threaten to nationalize the oil fields the way Gaddafi had done.

[AngkorWot]

23. LOL. Cynthis McKinney.

Didn't she write the screwball article about Gadhafi and his poor pet antelope or some shit?

[dameocrat67]

27. no she wrote is was over oil and debt

which war boosters in this thread admitted to.

[MADem]

37. She got pissed when she COMPLETELY changed her hairstyle and look, and lost it when

the House guards didn't recognize her.

I'd wager that if Porgie The Great (Asswipe), our former Presidunce, shaved his head and tried to stroll through the WH gates, even he, the Famous Wee Cowboy, might have been stopped and asked for ID.

She's hypersensitive. And out of power. And likely, just as well. She did not HELP.

[MADem]

34. Libya does not have that much oil. They are strategically located.

If a friendly regime is in power, that's good for us.

Once upon a time, we had a USAF base there....pre-Moo-ha-mar.

As for Hugo? Fuck him. He doesn't like anyone save Fidel. He'll be dead before too long, anyway. That stomach ache doesn't seem to be going away.

[joshcryer]

36. The success of Libya also had implications for Tunisia and Egypt.

If Libya fell it would've been bad for both countries (who are now both recognizing Libya).

[MADem]

42. Who remembers the Three Pillars of SA, Iraq and Iran?

Same thing, only different.

We like alliances that are co-located. Makes it easier for us and our friends.

[joshcryer]

35. Cynthia McKinney is a paid Libyan shill.

[MADem]

46. She's probably outta work today! nt

[Warpy]

38. They can be

but neither we nor the Libyan people will know for certain for some months.

Besides, the win is not absolutely certain. They still have the southern part of the country to slog through. Taking the major cities is huge, though.

[JI7]

44. i don't even consider people like Cynthia McKinney to be liberals or socialists

they are conspiracy theorists .

[cali]

48. It neither a good thing or a bad thing yet. It all depends on what comes down the pike and

whether it will be better or worse for the people of Libya.