This is the essential disagreement among the right and the left

[nadinbrzezinski]

and Perry did state it well.

WHAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT.

Should DC ONLY have a military role, aka funding the military for war? Read your constitution... or should it also have a role in improving the public welfare.

I can make an argument for both. And no, Social Security is NOT enumerated in the Constitution... it is in the preamble and it is implied.

But this is the ideological war we are having. And make no mistake it is a war.

[ItNerd4life]

1. I think neither party wants to 'Promote the General Welfare'

Republicans want to 'Ignore the General Welfare' and many times I feel like Democrats want to 'Provide the General Welfare'.

Neither of the parties solutions are working.
Democrats: War on poverty - we have the same percentage of the population living in poverty that we had 30 years ago.
Republicans: War on drugs - we have the same percentage of people using drugs as we did 30 years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Alas the war on poverty WAS successful

but the war has been over for a while... at least since Clinton, perhaps all the way to Reagan.

As to the war on drugs, prohibition never ever works.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. I think right wingers' hatreds cause them to want a small govt that is used only to wage war

By the way, EXCELLENT POST!

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. But NOT fund it

and thanks

[Jackpine Radical]

5. The funding, as well as the fighting,

is for the Little People.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. + Brazillion

:hi:

[Jackpine Radical]

15. Yo, Nadin.

:hug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. back at you

:hug:

[JoePhilly]

7. Correct.

I've been arguing this all along.

The GOP has spent the last 2.5 years trying to prevent Obama from making any progress on anything outside the military role. And even there they hate him so much that they would screw with American security.

Since he became President, their goal has been to shut down the government, stop all social programs, kill the EPS, DOE (both), FEMA, etc, etc.

They do this to (1) limit the successes Obama can have. They would rather the economy fail then let him win again. So they either block everything, or if they can't outright block it, they make sure that whatever passes has something in it that part of the left will HATE.

They can't win on the issues, so the best they can do is try to prevent Obama from making progress to piss off the left. And sadly, it is working.

If the GOP can regain control, they will move quickly to end all social programs, give all control to corporations, and tell the workers of the US that they are great patriots who love God correctly for allowing their standard of living to decline.

We on the left need to focus on this difference, the role of government. Either it's role is to help and protect the citizen, and give them a chance to advance, or it is to solidify advantage.

We Dems better figure out who the real enemy is. Otherwise, we won;t be bickering about who will primary Obama, we'll be fighting over the trash in the dumpster outside the new green zones.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Actually like abortion, they will do SOME OF IT

not all of it. In other worlds give bone to base and move on. Proof, they had power in 2004... a huge ideological bomb is abortion. tell me when did the REPUBLICAN Congress pass the necessarily legislation.

They did try with SS though... and it blew in George's face. There is something about leaders not really doing more than just bones

And our own third way agrees with them in fundamental ways. This is not about parties, but the ideological right (some are blue dogs) and the ideological left.

[JoePhilly]

18. Let's discuss this 3rd way .... as an example ...

Is North Carolina better off with former GOP Senator Liddy Dole, or with Democratic 3rd Way Senator, Kay Hagan?

I voted for Kay over Dole. Was I wrong to do so? I wanted Dole OUT.

Should my new goal now be too remove Kay?

Or should I have stayed home until a "real progressive" came along?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. It is up to you as a voter, isn;t it

I know the country needs a swift kick in the pants and somebody to save capitalism from itself. The third way is not it.

SO it is up to you as a voter and your ideological center suffice it to say the battle is NOT limited to the two national parties. Why I said, RIGHT AND LEFT, whatever remains of the left, not democrats and republicans.

[spanone]

8. republicans only want less government when democrats have the upper hand.

we heard very little about less government when they had the white house for eight years

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. They did try to privatize social security though

[quaker bill]

10. Here is the conceptual mistake:

"Role of Government" as a concept assumes government to be an alien entity somehow removed from the people. It is not and can never be so removed because its actions and inactions have substantial consequence on all. A better construction is to consider what we can do best together collectively versus what we can do best on an individual basis. Building roads is clearly best as a collective effort. Purchasing groceries for dinner is clearly best done individually, or by the family, or perhaps small group in the case of a co-op.

There are a wide range of things to be done. Sewage treatment is best done collectively, all one needs to do is travel to locations where this is managed individually to see the difference. Once you have decided which things are also best done this way, then you gather the resources (taxes) and do them.

The "proper role of government" is not a matter of political philosophy, it is a matter of pragmatic reality. The more densely you pack people in, the more government they will require and will come to demand. It is pretty much that simple.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yes, but we are not talking of pragmatic realities

but ideologies.

[quaker bill]

25. And that is precisely the problem.

ideologies are useless. They are artificial constructs imposed on a natural system. You may believe it actually "should" be this way or that, but it never is. It is what it is. Libertarians would actually grow to hate the lack of government they would create every bit as much as socialists would grow to hate the constraints on individual freedom their ideology would eventually imply.

What is real is real and it is quite rare that imposing ideologies on it produces a practical, predictable, or pleasant result.

[Bonhomme Richard]

11. I think you give them too much credit that they have a political ideology..

I, for one, think it is all about the money. I don't think they give a shit beyond that. There is a war all right but it is all about the rich getting all they can and screw everyone, including the country. If there is a fixed ideology it's "I got mine".

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Oh yes they do

it is about the money, and fascism, they are proto fascists, IS an ideology.

[OHdem10]

16. Ikt is an ideological war and the Republicans have ideology and

Democrats have none. Therefore Dems are fighting
with one arm behind their back.

We have known all along this is to be a fight
about the Role of Government.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Actually democrats have IDEOLOGIES

ranging from the Third Way to the New Deal Democrats, and in a few cases they are the same conflict as that in the OP

[white_wolf]

21. This is why I sometimes doubt if the democratic party will still be a major party in a couple of

decades. They are too divided amongst themselves and a house divided cannot stand. Eventually either the pro-business faction will win out or the left-wing faction will win. Whoever wins though, I don't know if the democratic party will survive. I could see the pro-business wing going over to the republicans and the left wing strengthening the Green Party to become our new second party. Of course, I could be wrong on this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. We are going to see a split

of one, if not the two major parties, the other party has the christ faction and the business faction.

[white_wolf]

23. Yeah, but so far those two factions seem to work fairly well together.

All Christian Dominionists favor laissez faire capitalism. Here is a very good page full of information on the Religious Rights economic view. The whole site is actually really good, but here is the economic section: http://www.theocracywatch.org/rr_economics.htm

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Trust me I know, Calvin is alive and well

but there are huge pressures there too.

[PurityOfEssence]

26. To be a current Republican, you have to believe two things:

1: the rich are getting screwed.
2: the plight of the rich is more dire and important than all other problems, and regardless of anything, they should be spared any billing for the services they enjoy.