The corporatists claim they need lower tax rates in the US to be competitive

[DainBramaged]

But we all know that's a lie. They aren't bringing the factories, offices or research facilities back to the US. They aren't bringing the jobs back. They want ZERO regulation, ZERO interference, ZERO costs. They are starving the US for the shareholders, and their cries are hollow and nothing but children's stories.

A look at the world's new corporate tax havens



Our government is in knots over ways to lower the federal budget deficit. Well, what if we told you we found a pot of money - over $60 billion a year - that could be used to help out?


That bundle is tax money not coming in to the IRS from American corporations. One major way they avoid paying the tax man is by parking their profits overseas. They'll tell you they're forced to do that because the corporate 35 percent tax rate is high in relation to other countries, and indeed it seems the tax code actually encourages companies to move businesses out of the country

Companies searching out tax havens is nothing new. In the 80s and 90s, there was an exodus to Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, where there are no taxes at all.


When President Obama threatened to clamp down on tax dodging, many companies decided to leave the Caribbean, but as we first told you in March, instead of coming back home, they went to safer havens like Switzerland.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/14/60minutes/main20091720.shtml?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

[midnight]

1. Lower than G.E. I thought they received money back after not paying any taxes...

[OHdem10]

2. Wake up people, the laws are being set up in states.

Low Wages and Low Corporate taxes makes America
competitive with China Asia etc.

Cheap enough Labor and our jobs come back from
overseas.

The States are cutting Corporate Taxes as they
off workers and lower wages.
There is a reason for Union Busting. Makes Labor
cheaper and gives Business more freedom to pay what
they will and give little or no benefits.
Deregulation--no rules means cheap production.

[LatteLibertine]

3. Yep

corporations that are making record profits and hiding their money off shore are some of the worst offenders for laying off or firing U.S. citizens. There is no amount of appeasing you can do to satisfy them. We can't live on eight dollars a month with zero benefits. They want cheap slave labor. Of course they try to get that by exploiting immigrants as well as trying to dismantle unions.

IMO we should hit dividends and capital gains of corps that do this >hard<. Corporations that hire in the U.S. and invest heavily here should get great breaks in those areas.

[badtoworse]

4. So how would you bring the jobs back?

The reality is that we are not competitive in the world market. Competition is not going away and if we continue doing nothing, the jobs will continue flowing to more business friendly countries.

Just whining about how evil the corporation are isn't going to accomplish anything.

[Harmony Blue]

5. Since you ask

Give incentives to corporations that keep the jobs in this country. We are competitive in the world market, but the mistake is we need to focus on quality, not quantity. We can't compete in sheer quantity like Asia can pump out matter how low U.S. worker wages go. Are the southern right to work states any competitive in sheer volume production compared to China? No, so don't swallow the RW corporate propaganda that a race to the bottom is necessary to be "competitive".

Germany is the most uninonized country in the world, and they are competitive on the world stage because they focus on quality.

[badtoworse]

7. I like that approach. "Made in U.S.A." has always meant quality to me.

My only concern is the size of the market for higher end products. I think it's too small to support the number of jobs we need. In the end, I think we will also need to become more competitive in mass markets.

[DainBramaged]

6. No one is whining, but we do pay attention to those who think we should be like China

[whathehell]

13. Yeah, and at least China has national healthcare!

[LatteLibertine]

9. I've not called corporations "evil"

nor do I believe most of them to be so.

Even if U.S. workers accepted working for poverty level pay with zero benefits they still wouldn't be able to compete with cheap labor slave labor in some nations.

As I said, even corporations that are making >record profits< are firing people here and shipping jobs over seas.

I'd offer corporations that hire and invest in the United States first >zero< capital gains taxes and half the rate on all others. I might sweeten the deal further. I'm fine with them harvesting emerging markets in other nations as long as they put the United States first. I'm not suggesting global corporations cease being global.

For corporations that are doing very well and still decimating our work force I'd hit them with 3x the current capital gains rate and the full level for other taxes.

There is no way to appease these folks purely from the labor side. We can't exist on what some people in other nations can.

Incentives alone aren't going to work. There needs to be meaningful drawbacks as well.

I'd look definitely look at tweaking our trade relations with China. Right now they are screwing us well. We're letting them get away with murder.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. And most important: Companies can already lower their taxes in the U.S. by

1. Hiring more people in the U.S. and giving them better pay and benefits (wages and benefits are paid with pretax income)

2. Modernizing their facilities (also paid for with pretax income)

3. Research and development (also paid for with pretax income)

4. Anything else that is a legitimate business expense (paid for with pretax income)

Given these tax advantages, why are companies off-shoring and shedding workers as fast as they can?

Simple: business school teaches that the ONLY purpose of a corporation is to make money for the shareholders, and the shareholders have absorbed the message.

They have forgotten that the stock market is supposed to be a gamble, not a sure source of income, and they demand ever-increasing dividends by any means necessary.

[Mr Deltoid]

10. They demand the givernment borrow money and hand it out to the wealthy

'Tax cut' my ass.

[Shandris]

11. Here's something I posted in another thread yesterday.

Begin quote:


It seems that, on paper, we have the second highest rate in the world -- with the key words there being 'on paper'. So few companies actually pay that as to be laughable, of course. However, by the same token, we have less money as a % in corporate payments than at any time in recent history, and its only getting lower. This is based on BOTH the fact that we have so many tax loopholes, and are bleeding companies that can't find a way to GET tax loopholes. Too few taxes for those who can find the loopholes, too MANY taxes for those who can't. Neither wants to pay a sustainable wage of any kind, and they ALL bitch about unions.

Now, my uncle was a union worker for something like 40 years (I don't know the exact number, hence the 'something like') - until he retired. He has a SUBSTANTIALLY better mode of living than anyone else in my immediate family except for one other uncle, who is a on-site specialized corporate teacher (something about design mechanics, I don't get to see him often.). Neither of them are 'rich', but both are on the 'very comfortable' margin. So those are my 'credentials', I guess -- more like things to keep in mind to see where I'm coming from (and to help critique on things I'm not familiar with).

So it seems to me that a workable strategy would be this:

1. Lower our corporate federal income taxes to the LOWEST in the world of all countries that charge taxes -- from my reading, Ireland at 12.5% is the lowest. So a flat 10%. This provides IMMEDIATE incentive to bring jobs back to America.

2. Let states handle their own corporate taxes.

3. Remove ALL tax subsidies and loopholes. This is a 'flat tax' approach FOR CORPORATIONS ONLY. Once you apply it to people, it becomes highly regressive and therefore unacceptable. This is an immediate gain of 3% as a % of GDP to existing corporate gains, plus that gathered from 'returning' business. Any company with a US presence, or a US market, is susceptible to this tax.

4. Provide a business/government oversight board to all existing and proposed regulations. This is the tricky one, as its susceptible to corruption. Take every measure possible to prevent politicization and/or corruption, erring on the side of caution. This is meant to handle the 'onerous regulation' complaint of business, while assuring that PROPER regulation IS enforced. A Living Wage median is established via government accounting (a new 'poverty' level), and Applied Living Wages are then calculated according to the various COL's for the regions.

5. Establish a limited Union presence. Many of the needs of the old unions are considered accepted practice today, and like it or not, unions have a history of being mob-rich environments. The new Unions will provide for fair arbitration, contract disputes, and pay scales. However, it is to be run as a non-profit venture (thereby eliminating much of the causation of corruption). The new Unions will also be responsible for Labor bookkeeping duties, including COL tracking, vacation tracking, sick days, and so forth. This removes a costly portion of business, and is directly funded with union dues that do not exceed the actual costs of the bookkeeping.

6. This is critical: Tie executive compensation DIRECTLY to the number of lost positions throughout the year. Note that this does not include firing a worker and replacing them with another (as in the case of incompetence and so forth) but actual positions lost to productivity gains. This provides a direct incentive to find new positions as old ones are no longer needed instead of 'padding the bottom line' with firings. Tie executive BONUSES to voluntary cross-training and furthering education to maintain a viable, intelligent, well-trained labor pool (coordinated with the Unions; this has the added benefit of management and union representatives working closely together instead of always being at odds and developing an us-vs-them attitude). Any purchases made SOLEY FOR THE BENEFIT OF CORPORATE EXPANSION THAT IS DONE TO MAINTAIN WORKFORCE NUMBERS, even if it is an expansion of the corporation itself, will be non-taxable purchases. We take the small hit on tax collected from the goods purchased in order to ensure a more steady revenue from workers' taxes over a longer period of time.

7. Industry lobbyists will be considered a part of the Union, and the bookkeeping will be handed to the Union. Outside lobbyists will be illegal. This ensures that Lobbyists carry both Labor AND Business concerns as part of their lobbying activities, or none at all. They may not earn more than the Union leaders to which they belong (to provide an incentive against graft).

8. Individual unions become the arbiters of Social Security and Medicare accounts for the people they represent, removing yet another onerous cost from government (although they, in aggregate, still use the SS and MC Trust Funds). The SS cap is lifted to $500,000, and anyone with a average 10-year income of 500,000 or more for each year is moved beyond the Social Security recipients list; instead, they may take half of their contribution and put it in the banking vehicle of their choice (the so-called privatization of SS, for the wealthy only, and only enough that it won't threaten the stability of the Trust Funds).

What do you think?

<<End quote; one edit added for something missed>>

A systemic overhaul to business is the only way I can see of going forward. As someone else mentioned earlier, we can 'offer incentives' to keep jobs here, but what exactly do we offer?

[Spike89]

14. I disagree

First, I don't think taxes are really the issue. However, even if they were, lowering taxes would only put the money into the pockets of the rich. The "loopholes" you criticize are actually the answer to the problem. "Loopholes" (actually deductions) are a proven method of encouraging behaviors deemed beneficial and punishing detrimental behaviors. Want to spur new factory growth? Give a huge tax break to factory developers. Want to discourage non-investment splurging by the rich? Put a huge luxury tax on yachts, etc. Of course, for either to work, you need a higher "base" tax rate. If you already pay no or little taxes, cutting them in half means nothing.

Although fixing and really using the tax laws to promote the welfare of Americans would be a great start, it will not in itself bring back the commodity factory jobs. Many of those went offshore to avoid regulations, not anything to do with wages, taxes, or quality. China, and many 3rd-world nations are willing to accept high levels of polution, worker injury/death, and corruption.

Another reality is that automation has actually reached a point in some industries that almost all the labor needed in the factory can be truly unskilled. Circuit boards are an example--just a few years ago, much of the work was done by hand, but robotics now can handle even the most complex jobs. In other industries, the labor required is actually becoming more skilled, but with far fewer workers required. Most heavy manufacturing , such as the auto industry fit here--workers need to work with sophisticated machinery, but far fewer are needed to produce the same number of vehicles. In either case, this is bad for traditional labor.

The economy will need to adjust to the realities of technology and sadly, it isn't going to be smooth or without pain for many. However, the days where anyone who wanted one could find a decent job working in a factory (if they ever existed) are cenrtainly not coming back.

[jmowreader]

17. You want GE to move completely offshore?

[ellenfl]

12. last night's 60 minutes was catapulting that propaganda. eom

[Initech]

15. Our government is broke because we don't regulate or tax these fuckers.

[Necronomiconomics]

16. 2014: "We need Child Labor to be competitive"