WI is a lesson that not every battle is a win, and hard work isn't always enough.

[TheWraith]

It's sad that the results weren't better, but it's important to take from this the healthy lesson that just being on the right side isn't enough to win a fight. As a rule, good eventually beats evil, but there's no guaranteed timetable on that, and there never will be. That's why progress takes patience, and it's why getting pissed off or burned out after everything doesn't go our way in one congress, or one term, or even one decade, isn't a viable strategy.

There's an old saying that politics is the slow cutting of hard boards... it takes time, patience, and determination, as well as the knowledge that you won't win every time, and the willingness to accept that and fight again another day. The only way that there isn't a "next time" is when someone gets discouraged and gives up.

[Rex]

1. But so far there has always been a 'next time' and always will be.

We don't have time on our side.

[alarimer]

29. especially when we are up against rich assholes who fund propaganda campaigns.

We do not have the money to compare with their deep pockets.

[loyalsister]

2. Right on

Props to the people who worked so hard in WI and got results. :yourock:

[undeterred]

3. We took over two Republican seats before their terms were up!

The results were great. We replaced two Republicans with Democrats. More recalls to come. Things happen in the lives of legislators... people get arrested and step down from office, decide to run for other offices, trip over road kill in winter. The Dems will be ready to step up and run for office in all situations. What has happened this year has been an amazing effort and will continue to be. I am not disappointed at all.

When I think of the Democrats in Washington I get a little nauseous. When I think of the Democrats in the State Assembly and Senate in Wisconsin and in the party I have never been prouder! :kick:

[Andy823]

4. +1,000,000,000 nt

[Rex]

5. That is huge imo! I cannot believe people are poo pooing on that

news. Some people can never be satisfied.

[Scuba]

11. It is a BFD. We took two seats away from Republicans. n/t

[madrchsod]

37. the wild card is the republican that votes for labor issues

[gkhouston]

6. And when we think of all the foot soldiers who worked for Dems

in these races... :patriot:

They'll be back, ready to kick ass and take names.

[undeterred]

25. Absolutely.

This year people stepped up like it was a presidential year. Like it was October instead of July. Simply amazing. All these people ready to run for office, ready to work the phones, ready to canvas, ready to contribute... and we have a great party chair who really has been doing an excellent job too.

[PeaceNikki]

7. Yes. This.

:)

[mzmolly]

9. Absolutely

agree.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Yes, that's an interesting turn, huh?

What a fucking tool!

[mzmolly]

13. Yes indeed.

:hi:

[madrchsod]

36. yup..you guys and gals up there should be and...

there`s a lot of folks across the country are dam proud of what you did and what you are going to do this winter.

[Little Star]

49. That is a win!!! Wisconsin should be proud! k&r

[Broderick]

8. Gee the precedent is now set

We don't like elections, so we try to overturn. And lose. Brilliant and beautiful.

We probably learned from the Davis recall in California and tried that greedily to parlay into other things.

After next Tuesday, the net effect is maybe one, or perhaps even a draw. But we mobilized all our money and resources there and other states took advantage of the distraction.

Now, it cuts both ways. The precedent is set. Recall what elections bring us instead of voting in the first place. This is not good, no matter how you put lipstick on a pig. Not good at all.

[N7Shepard]

10. Net effect is 2 or 1

[Broderick]

14. There are TWO elections Tuesday

a TIT for TAT. Two Democrats are on the block. One is likely to lose and the other, based on the results yesterday is in jeopardy. SO WHAT WAS THE POINT??? Meanwhile Rome burned in other states that were neglected. Wisconsin, I feel, was a distraction.

[N7Shepard]

15. Uh, no. One is likely to win, but be close. The other is likely to win handily

[Broderick]

16. ok

eat the rainbows and the unicorns. LOL. Precedent is set. Don't like an election, do a recall. It cuts both ways. Either way, it didn't change the structure of the government there. It wasted resources while other states took cover under the distraction.

AND it set a precedent. A bad one. Obama said elections have consequences. We tried to change an election, and failed. But watch what happens now. Just watch.

[N7Shepard]

17. Even the local hate radio is writing off the Bob Wirch race.

[Broderick]

20. So its still not a victory my friend

Split next week, net effect of 1. ONE SEAT. ONE. Meanwhile Rome burns in other states. What a fucking waste. I think we were meant to be sidetracked and distracted. How I don't know, but I believe that. AND we set one hell of a precedent in the process. Elections are frequent in this country but we wasted resources trying to change an election and failed. Does anyone at all see how bad this is, or is it just me????

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

68. This is a war, so yes, battles need to be fought each time

they become necessary. This was a hugh win for Wisc Dems. And the best part is that now, Walker who was so arrogant before, is now scared for his own job. All of a sudden, as is often the case with bullies, he's 'looking forward to working with Democrats'. That's quite an attitude adjustment from just a short time ago when he was threatening to have them arrested.

So, if we don't like the results of an election because the elected official is helping to destroy this country, now we know we can get rid of them. And so do they.

[54anickel]

23. This was not a response to "we don't like elections". This was the response to the

over-reach of a legislature caving to the demands of an ideologue, creating a deficit and implementing drastic changes that were not campaigned on. Why do you think Republicans and Independents that voted for the fool joined us in Madison? This was about saying enough and taking a stand. If any precedent was set it was obscene spending on the election process, and THAT is the precedent that should be getting attention and fought against. Your rant sounds exactly like what Rush was running off about earlier today.

[Broderick]

24. You're kidding right?

Do you recall the elections at all, and what they ran on to win? Seriously. Or are you patting yourself on the back for failure? Tell me.

[54anickel]

31. Yes, I recall the election of Walker VERY well. He did not run moving the DHS out of control of the

legislature and hence the people thru public hearings. He did NOT run on taking away collective bargaining rights. He did NOT run on gutting education funding. No, I am not patting myself on the back for failure. I am patting my fellow Wisconsinites on the back for putting up an excellent fight and winning 2 seats. What is your answer, go back to using an electoral system that is completely corrupt? Perhaps try litigation through the court systems that have been stacked for years by graduates of Regent and Liberty law schools? We took advantage of what was legally available in an attempt to take back the Senate and overturn the worst of these draconian changes.
Tell me oh wise master, what should we have done? What did YOU do?

[Broderick]

33. Meanwhile rome burned

I think we were played into caring what happened up there while other states did worse. And we lost. We don't like elections, we have a few years to change hearts and minds, but nevertheless we set a precedent for the future. We have elections in this country frequently. We lost an election, didn't like the outcome and as Obama says, they have consequences. So we wasted time, money, efforts, and energy to lose as a distraction. It's that simple. Instead of patience, we were like looters railing and screaming and getting all puffed up to overturn results. It backfired. After next week, it might be disastrous because it sets horrible implications in place for the future of politics. Do you think this emboldens other elected officials in other states??

[54anickel]

39. Rome didn't fucking burn! What we won was an awakening of America, What we won was

2 Senate seats. What we won was national recognition of what is wrong with out electorial/political process. What should we have done with the money, effort and energy you claim "we" wasted? Should "we" have scattered it across the states under attack so that it was so thinned out and watered down that "we" all would "lose" while no one noticed the tiny underfunded, underbacked, battle noise in the background?
Look, I'm still pretty hot about this topic right now so I'm dropping out of this discussion. Feel free to continue your armchair quaterbacking of how we handled our fight here in WI. If it sets such a horrible implication for the future of politics then someone will no doubt pass a fucking law against it. Meanwhile, I'd like to think our WI forefathers knew damned well what they were doing when they allowed for recalls...as well as skipping town to deny a quorem...or would you like that to be ended as well before someone abuses it....
Have a pleasant evening....

[Broderick]

40. ok

Wear those rose colored glasses. Next week, our gain might be zero. Maybe one seat. Meanwhile other states, doing the same thing, got zero attention. Let's have our Custer's last stand and burn the resources behind us. Scorch and burn methodology. Brilliant.

[54anickel]

52. Oh no...You are NOT getting the last word on this by claiming I'm wearing rose colored glasses

while you get your passive-agressive dig in under an "ok" subject line. Way to kick a person who is supposedly ON THE SAME FUCKING SIDE OF THE FIGHT after that person (ME) has admitted to being down and tired. You keep beating that same drum...last stand, rome burning, the "rest of us". WTF is your problem? I still have yet to hear your brillant scheme that would have been the better choice than what we did. Come on Broderick...lay out your fucking brillant strategy.

[Broderick]

54. one word

patience

[dionysus]

42. keep digging yourself that hole. you're pushing demoralization and despair. we just won two seats.

[Broderick]

45. Pushing what?

Reality? LMAO.

Ok.

Next week. One seat net, maybe one. And do you know what was going on in other states while resources, energy, and money was tied up in Wisconsin? good Lord get out of the box. We were set up. We were purposely distracted. We were played. It's all a bilking mechanism that most on here are not a part of and they bilked. I am finding out the bigger picture. We were toyed with, like pawns, in a huge bilking mechanism. Meanwhile, Rome does burn in other states.

[dionysus]

47. you're pushing a dumptruck full of defeatist woo.

[Broderick]

48. No just reality

I can't put on the happy pants when the happy pants don't exist. We were played, pure and simple. Focus over there, wherein behind the curtain rights were being eroded and we lost anyway. After next week, it might be a disastrous loss and it set a precedent that cuts both ways. No patience. No circumspect on the implications. Nope, just simple gratification, like faking an orgasm for our partner. I see it. You will hear more soon, and how blatantly this was a diversion. It will come, and the losses are staggering when you factor in the energy, resources, and money staked on that impatience.

[dionysus]

50. it's your personal version of reality. you're not the arbiter of reality, sorry.

[Broderick]

53. Next week, paint a glorious picture for me

Use broad brush strokes, and beautiful words.

Do it for yourself too.

It's a huge blow in Wisconsin. Huge. And the ramifications are going to be far reaching. Don't like elections, just try and overturn. It becomes a distraction for other states doing far worse. Blinders are free.

[54anickel]

57. Cripes, there you go again. I swear, I heard these EXACT talking points outta Rush this afternoon.

And yes, I listen to Rush because I work with an a$$hole that listens to that shit all.day.long...you sound just like him today, "Don't like elections, overturn them". The only people taking that lesson out of what happened in WI are half-wits like Rush.....and obviously you.

[Broderick]

58. Personal attacks define you

go ahead. I make no mistake about how I feel personally about what is going on and I don't dress it up to make it pretty. your response is to denigrate me and to tell me you listen to the enemy. So be it. Keep listening to him. Makes me proud to have your here with me to paint a picture of yourself and how you debate.

[54anickel]

62. You know what. You are right, and I owe you an apology for the person attack.

That said, I'll just simply state I disagree with the rest of your post beyond the subject line.

You do know that recalls cannot be frivolously invoked. That there's a minimum number of signatures required and WI obtained those required signatures, that took a lot more than just dems signing in these very Republican areas. So, no we did not set a precendent that will be easily used and abused. But, like I said, they can always attempt to outlaw it if they care to face the possible political backlash of taking away the voters only recourse in a system where elections are bought by millions and billions of anonymous campaign contributions. THAT where the problem is, that is where the threat to our democracy is. It is not in the utilization of the legal, constitutional right to exercise a recall.

That said, Robin Vos would certainly agree with your point of view... http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/article_acbfe7ca-c3ae-11e0-bbac-001cc4c03286.html

snip>

Both Mason and Vos said legislation that would have required a more specific reason for recall elections by state statute has been proposed before, but the state Supreme Court said such a requirement could not become law because it conflicts with the constitution. That is why Vos said he is proposing a constitutional amendment.

Vos said by proposing a constitutional amendment, it would have to be passed through both legislative bodies and be voted on by the people of the state.



Read more: http://www.journaltimes.com/news/local/article_acbfe7ca-c3ae-11e0-bbac-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1UgQTfHuz

[Broderick]

63. I think I am pessimistic and this will be looked back on as folly

considering the cover other states had, and now the emboldening they get from it. I don't disagree that there was plenty of energy to initiate the recalls and to proceed, legally too. Not one bit. People were upset, but in an echo chamber it is louder. It further separated people, on hindsight I might add because I was pretty game to it all, but on reflection the gains are nil, and it changed nothing. It created a distraction to other state's plights. I appreciate the information and I will calm down in a few weeks, but when really gauging the consequences I think it does absolutely the reverse that it was intended for.

[Raksha]

69. It's pretty damn obvious what some people here are doing.

Unreccing and saying so, just to stick it to the demoralization trolls.

[msongs]

18. it is a lesson that when you FIGHT BACK you get some good results. nt

[JDPriestly]

19. It might have helped if Obama had at least given a little encouragement

to the union members.

I can't believe that Obama abandoned Democrats like he did.

I ask myself all the more whether he is really a Democrat at all or whether he is really just a liberal Republican in his heart.

[PeaceNikki]

22. I disagree. I am glad the national Democrats stayed the hell out if it.

The national Dems fuck shit up. Wisconsin Democrats stand up for the people and work hard to get shit done.

[Broderick]

26. YES in part

This has national implications on a broad scale, and those that stayed out of it were wise. Not liking the results of elections and the consequences of trying to change elections are frustrating, and a new disturbing precedent was set, and that precedent backfired. After next Tuesday it might be disastrous, and any politician that condoned it might get bit.

[PeaceNikki]

27. We get it, you think the recalls were a mistake. Do you think the Dem Senators leaving the state to

avoid quorum was a mistake, too?

[Broderick]

30. Stand and fight.

That is all I have to say on that. Win the hearts and minds and never let polls dictate. There are elections coming up. Trying to change an election backfired. The polls showed something different than what happened, and I am not a conspiracy person - but what happened happened. I think we shot ourselves in the foot.

[PeaceNikki]

32. Again, I disagree.

"Stand and fight" is the EXACT phrase my Republican friend uses when we discuss this issue.

Weird!

[Broderick]

34. you disagreed with me once.

Another person started this thread, but nevertheless, what was the gain in the end? Zero seats? One seat? Waste of resources in the party while other states did worse? I appreciate your involvement, as I expressed many times, but what was the gain? A more polarized people is good? A more divided state is good?

[JDPriestly]

61. Democrats did not polarize or divide the state. Republicans did.

The draconian anti-Union, anti-public-employee measures polarized and divided the state.

Walker is a hateful man. He will end up despised like Schwarzenegger here in California.

[JDPriestly]

60. What backfired?

The Democrats have two more seats in the state Senate than they had when the recall started.

+2 is a win. It's simple addition.

[Broderick]

64. oh boy

There are two more elections next week. Keep up. Don't get yourself immersed in a bubble of the daily thread happenings. Negotiate the longer story, which isn't what you read today. The likelihood of losing two is growing, out of two, and at least one. So at best, it might be just a one seat pick up and at worse, a push.

[54anickel]

66. PeaceNikki, did you catch Democracy Now today?

I realize this is John's usual "rosey" outlook...HA!
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/8/10/wi_recall_marks_labor_win_election

[JDPriestly]

59. I think the idea was successful.

Democrats are two seats up. They would have to lose both seats next Tuesday to make it even. No matter what happens, the Democrats will not be worse off than they were before the recall effort.

And the Democrats have organized Democrats across the state and stood up for what is right. That always pays off big time in the end.

This was a win for Democrats.

It's shameful that Obama shows so little support for labor.

[Broderick]

65. How much slipped by in other states with similar battles though?

How much in resources were spent? Unions are not unlimited funding machines. This can't be painted as pretty. I think democracy worked from a voting standpoint, but what was lost in the meanwhile? We need to win hearts and minds... I think this created much more of a division.

[JDPriestly]

67. More was gained than lost.

Are you sure you are a Democrat?

[madrchsod]

35. peacenikki is right ...

we don`t need another hero...

[dionysus]

43. knew it was only a matter of time before obama got blamed... ROFL.

:spray:

extra points for managing to take time in a wisconsin thread to (yet again) call Obama a republican!11!1

[JVS]

21. Unrec for intentionally downplaying a limited grassroots success to justify top level capitulations

[dionysus]

44. extra points for making a bizarre stretch to slam Obama in a wisconsin thread.

:thumbsup:

[Zax2me]

38. It's a start.

That's all.
Not a great but good one.

[Broderick]

41. A start to what?

More bilking by the mechanism that frenzies people? Recall elections when elections are frequent, and then you lose creating a distraction while other states do worse?? I think we have been toyed with. I think it might have been intentional, to whip frenzy in a losing cause so other states could accomplish worse things in the darkness. Yeah, I am frustrated. Yeah, I see the writing on the wall. I think we got played. Bad.

[dionysus]

46. people got energized like never before, and took a battle to republican districts, and gained ground

if you want to paint people standing up for themselves and doing something about what walker has done as some kind of scam, a conspiracy, a "distraction" then i'm just going to have to laugh my ass off at you. you'd have to live in the land of tinfoil hats and black helicopters.

[Broderick]

51. Really? Know the history of those districts?

Or just go off what you want to believe? Two Democrats are up next week. One in serious jeopardy, and if the results from yesterday are any indication from (believing the bilking mechanism at all), both might be losses. I don't wear the happy pants on success now, and the precedent set that cuts both ways might be unstoppable. We are getting microcosm-ed into the corner. Focus on what a car could be with paint and work, but pay us 18 percent interest on the book value. Bilking us. False hopes, and distractions. Nobody speaks for us.

[RBInMaine]

55. Your depressive moaning and groaning is childish. Kindly adult-up.

[Broderick]

56. It's reality. Fantasy land is not my place

but go ahead and live there.

[JVS]

70. What's your beef with recalls? If you consider elections good, shouldn't more elections be better?

Walker and the teabaggers pissed off the cheeseheads. The cheeseheads responded by trying to combat that and they were able to gain two seats. What's the problem?