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We did get something...an increase in the debt limit.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:41 AM
Original message
We did get something...an increase in the debt limit.
$2.4 trillion in excess spending above receipts is still a crazy amount when you think about it.

And we are going to get all those revenues from the bush tax cuts if only our side doesn't cave.

But we want to portray ourselves as losers. Whatever.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. I actually COULD see a lot of this coming, but no one wants to get ahead of the game. WHY?
Medicare Reform

Bush's Tax Cuts sunset

Reforming marginal tax rates

They want those bracket margins changed, but they fucking and insanely HATE the first two items.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's like trading your lunch money for no punch in the face.
The fact is that the raising of the debt limit is a non-partisan bit of legislative housekeeping, and not an issue on which to make concessions of any sort. Engaging in the debate is itself a loss.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. yeah, and no one got punched in the face....
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, the thing is, we should have gotten that without question
because Congress (Republicans) already voted to spend that money. Instead what we got was a notice that teh crazy is the most effective strategy for a party to get its way. And since Dems are generally sane, that strategy doesn't really work for us.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. We will cudgel the Republicans with their massive miscalculation until...
November 2012, and the voters will respond.

People don't like having their government services held hostage.

Ask Newt Gingrich.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/30/voters-blamed-gop-for-1995-shutdown_n_842769.html

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. jesus-- that's like burning down your house to get rid of flies...
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 11:51 AM by mike_c
...and standing in the ashes rationalizing "at least we got rid of the flies" while the rain pours down your neck.

We got a debt ceiling increase. Another in the series of fifty or so during the last couple of decades. It's a non-event. A boobie prize that Obama let the tea party conflate into a great cause and, ultimately, a great victory for insanity. But we got a debt ceiling increase, along with yet another guaranteed, manufactured crisis when the gang of twelve puts its boots on our necks later.

The capitulator in chief got a debt ceiling increase. Yay! We won!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. We've got increases in military spending in the past.
So if we are used to increasing it it's not a big deal to cut it?
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. the military cuts are pitiful but I'm happy for that anyway...
...but it's 99 percent an awful deal that betrays democratic principles. It was utterly unnecessary and a "crisis" manufactured by the tea party for political theater, from which they walk away with nearly everything the republicans wanted. The pitiful 35 billion cut from the military over ten years is a pyrrhic victory at best, AND I'll wager that it never actually happens anyway.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. What betrays democratic principles is the reality of our demographics and situation.
Too many retirees, not enough workers to provide what the retirees used to get, and prior debts.



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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You nailed it..bascially a non-event used to get what they wanted all along.
Raising the freaking debt ceiling is not an *OMG CRISIS*.

What...Bush did it how many times?? Reagan like 18 or so... ALL POTUS have done it over the years. Why is this time so different....pretty obvious IMHO.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. And this is exactly what they wanted you to say
If they offered you a shit sandwich, you would never even consider eating it.

All they did was put a little mayo and ketchup on it, and its delicious now, right?
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. It IS possible for people to think for themselves & disagree with you. You ASSUME
they are eating a shit sandwich because that's the way YOU see it. People can look from other perspectives and see something else, can they not? Or is everything the way YOU see it and no other? Exclusion is not a very Liberal trait, IMHO.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Thanks for challenging my liberal cred.
Sorry, but my President told me on July 11 that he will never accept a deal without shared sacrifice. That he has an extra hundreds thousand in income he doesn't need while there are parents trying to make ends meet.

Sorry if it isn't "liberal" enough for you, but we have been handed a shit sandwich. Can I hand you a napkin?
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Pardon me, but you were the one who said I don't do my own thinking, a rather Rightie sort of
thing to do, don't you think?
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. Please tell me how "what they want you to say" does not apply to you, or does it only
apply to others when they disagree with you and that's as it should be because there is only one correct perspective on this and oh-so-coincidentally that one true perspective just so happens to be yours????

If so, there's some pretty darned Rightie ASSUMPTIONS in all of that.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. The fiscal insanity couldn't continue forever.
You all would forever think that any cuts were gutting things. It's inevitable.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Where is the revenue in this "shared sacrifice"?
I don't mind the cuts, but where is the balance?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. For Obama, Bush tax cuts shadow further debt talks
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not good enough. The debt ceiling should not be tied to anything
but if it HAD to be, it should have been tied to the extension of the Bush/Obama tax cuts last December.

1 year UI for 2 years tax cuts?

If I ever get divorced again, I want Obama to represent my future ex-husband.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. this deal is "fiscal insanity...."
Edited on Mon Aug-01-11 12:39 PM by mike_c
First, the premise that deficit spending is a bad thing is specious. We have a massive economic slowdown, from which the best way out is to stimulate production and economic growth. That requires spending, and if the people can't, and corporations won't, the government must. For example, from 1935 until 1943 the WPA provided government paid jobs to over eight million unemployed Americans and lifted us out of the great depression-- THAT'S how you spend your way out of economic downturn. Altogether, the federal government created over 11 million jobs from 1934 until 1943.

Second, the very notion of deficit budgets is something of a backhanded falsehood. Stick with me here for a minute, please.

We were able to create the WPA and other aspects of the New Deal because the wealthy and their corporations paid progressive taxes until the last couple of decades. For example, during the 1940s and 1950s corporations paid 50 percent more income tax than individuals, i.e. for every one dollar individuals paid in income taxes, corporations paid $1.50. Today the corporate share has dropped to $0.25 for every dollar individuals pay, and of course many of the largest and most profitable corporations pay no taxes at all. The burden of taxation has been shifted from businesses-- many of which are making record profits-- to individuals who cannot bear the extra burden during hard economic times. During the same time, the tax rates paid by the wealthiest people have declined precipitously from over 90 percent of income over $100,000 during the 1950s and 1960s, when the U.S. was demonstrably an economic powerhouse, to the current 15 percent on income from investments. Fabulously rich financial managers pay lower taxes than their housekeepers and secretaries. So the burden of funding government, including funding an economic recovery, has shifted from corporations and the wealthy, who now reap fantastic profits, onto the poor and working class, who sink deeper and deeper into despair.

But that's not the worst of it. Economist Richard Wolff explained it this way on a recent Democracy Now! broadcast:


RICHARD WOLFF: So, over the last 30, 40 years, a shift from corporate income tax to individual income tax, and among individuals, from the rich to everybody else. To deal with our budget problem without discussing that, putting that front and center, making that part of the story, that’s just a service to the rich and the corporations. There’s no polite way to say otherwise. And there’s something shameful about keeping all of that away and focusing on how we’re going to take out our budget problems by cutting back benefits to old people, to people who have medical needs. There’s something bizarre, and the world sees that, in a society that has done what it has done and now proposes to fix it on the backs of the majority.

(snip)

JUAN GONZALEZ: And one issue that you raised, in terms of how the corporations and bank profits have recovered tremendously, but—and many of these companies are sitting on huge piles of cash, that rather than invest in new machinery or bring in new workers, they’re just sitting on their money, and presumably investing it, because they’re not going to put it in at the bank rates or CD rates, so they’re obviously investing the money that they have, rather than create those jobs.

RICHARD WOLFF: Well, even more interesting, and maybe a bit of a shock to folks who don’t follow this, what the corporations are doing when they hold back the money—because it’s not profitable for them to hire—in large part, is they lend it to the United States government to fund these deficits. The United States government refuses to tax corporations and the rich. It then runs a deficit. It spends more than it takes in, because it’s not taxing them. And here comes the punchline. It then turns around to the people it didn’t tax—corporations and the rich—and borrows the money from them, paying them interest and paying them back. If the United States wanted to stimulate our economy in an effective way—

AMY GOODMAN: Pay even tax-deductible interest.

RICHARD WOLFF: Right, also. But if the government really wanted to do something, go get the money from them, stimulate, which will help them, and if you tax them to do it, you wouldn’t have a national debt. You wouldn’t run a deficit. We’re running a deficit because the people who run this society would like us to deal with our economic problems, not by taxing those who have it, the way we used to, but instead by endlessly borrowing (from) them. And now the ultimate irony, we’ve borrowed so much as a nation from the rich and the corporations, they now are not so sure they want to continue to lend to us, because we’re so deeply in debt. And they want us instead to go stick it to poor people and sick people instead. It’s an extraordinary moment in our history as a nation.


So the notion that we have to get our fiscal house in order because of massive deficits is itself a smoke screen concealing the twin facts that government spending is probably the only economic driver that will get us back on track, and more importantly, that the wealthy have succeeding in making us all serfs to their continued profits, and most Americans haven't a clue how they did it. Instead of paying taxes, they loan their money to government at interest, making a profit and creating debt. That debt leads the government to borrow more, creating more debt, and so on in an artificial scheme designed to wring profits from the entire population using government services, and leading the nation further and further into debt. Ultimately, the government is compelled to tax the poor and cut services to the needy in order to fund the unconscionable profits of the monied class. That's when we inevitably begin having conversations like this one, about the need to put our fiscal house in order. When the bill comes due to pay the rich.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. that should have been a given. it always has been a given. nt
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. We got what was free for a price this time... yay victory!
:eyes:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-11 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. So we got what has been done before 89 times without a fight
and the 2.4 trillion is only a crazy amount if you don't consider the even crazier bush tax cuts (which they already got extended) and unpaid warfare still in progress.
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