Every child who loses their shit in a restaurant or movie theater is not necessarily a "brat".

[11 Bravo]

The "terrible twos" (although I think the "threes" were worse) are not just a figment of some fuzzy-headed apologist's imagination. Any two or three year old would be found clinically insane according to the parameters of the DSM.
My wife and I have been fortunate enough to raise two beautiful and healthy sons ... smart, tolerant, and liberal. The oldest is leaving for college on a baseball scholarship in a couple of weeks (and I can't dwell on that or I'll fall apart). He is spending his summer coaching children and young adults in the Challenger Little League program.
His younger brother is also someone I've posted about before. He's the child who set up a "cicada hospital" when he was seven to try and assist cicadas who emerged from the chrysalis with non-functioning wings. He's the same child who forfeited his chance for an MP-3 player that he coveted in order to help an impoverished classmate obtain a gift card to a local grocery store.
Neither of my boys are brats.
And yet both of them have LOST THEIR FUCKING MINDS in public. The oldest one, as a three year old, once went off in a Toys 'R Us to the extent that I jokingly walked over to my wife, and said in a loud voice, "Damn, Lady, can't you control your kid?" He screamed non-stop, without rhyme or reason; and to this day we have no idea what was in his head.
His little brother, also as a three year old, once screamed his way through a family Thanksgiving get-together, to the extent that I came close to raising a hand to him. (We went for a walk instead, but it was a near thing.) And these are merely a couple of the more egregious examples.
The point is that young children's brains are not fully formed, and their behavior cannot be expected to conform to adult norms; and labeling every misbehaving child a "brat" is ignorant in the extreme.
I agree that if a child is disruptive to the point that other diners, or theater-goers, etc, are unable to enjoy the experience they paid for; that is certainly cause for angst. I just try to keep in mind that the outing may be the first in a very long time for the parents as well, and I try to cut them a little slack.
In any case, automatically labeling the kids "brats" or the adults as "poor parents" is stupid and lazy.

[readmoreoften]

1. It's not a "cause for angst." Get your screaming kid to a child appropriate location.

I'm sorry if you can't afford a night out, but you don't have the right to ruin 50 other people's night out with screaming children. Especially those who scrimped and saved for sitters.

[11 Bravo]

7. If the kids continued, at least in public, of course we removed them.

My point is that the "brat" and "bad parent" labels are overused.

[Scout]

19. sort of like that one, "child hater," eh? n/t

[Taverner]

And its not a judgement of the OPs kids

EVERY kid loses their shit every once in a while. Even the most docile kids from the greatest parents.

It's not about the kid - its about the other customers

[MadHound]

2. I fully understand that, but it used to be the norm

That when a kid was acting out in such a manner, that child was removed from that environment until they calmed down. It was basic politeness. Now I see more and more parents doing nothing about their kids, just letting them sit there and squall, driving the rest of us nuts.

You're a parent, act like one, and have some basic respect for the people around you. If your kid starts acting out, remove them to an environment where they won't bother other people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. +10000

[my2sense]

+100000

[11 Bravo]

12. Perhaps I wasn't clear. When our kids couldn't be calmed, of course ...

we moved them to another spot. I'm saying that the fact of their screaming did not make them "brats".
I particularly love the "You're a parent, act like one" line. I am a parent, Sparky, and while I doubt that I will ever require lessons in how to act like one; if I do, you won't come to mind.

[villager]

16. +1

n/t

[MadHound]

20. Well, your Toys R Us anecdote certainly made it seemed like you did nothing,

Except joke with your wife:shrug: But more to the point, I agreed with you that screaming kids aren't "brats" and was addressing my remarks to a more general audience, not you personally. But hey, if ya gotta thin skin:shrug:

[11 Bravo]

27. OK, I get that. We hustled him out of the store immediately. (Then we sat in the car and ...

laughed our asses off.) He had cried himself to sleep by then, and we just kept looking at each other and asking, "What the fuck was that?" Then we collapsed into giggles again.

[prayin4rain]

142. They were at Toys R Us .... I can understand a fancy restaurant

but seriously places like Target, TOYS R US.... there are places were people are just going to have to deal with the fact that children, who do not always act perfectly, are alive and living in this world. Parents should not have to rush a child out of Toys R Us because of a tantrum. Out of a Manhattan boutique, a movie theater, a nice restaurant, sure, Toys R Us, no. Grown ups who don't like or don't understand children don't need to go to Toys R Us and are just going to have to deal with their rage about non-perfect children being in places like Target. Yes, children used to be beat, treated badly and were expected to be little adults, but thankfully the little ones are given a little more latitude to be the little people they are nowadays.

[Maine-ah]

22. +1000000

[Shandris]

82. Well said, MadHound.

In any case, there is always the family vehicle if nothing else more suitable is present.

[Codeine]

3. My three-year-old stepson went so whackadoodle the other day

that I actually started laughing. It was just fucking surreal -- the little guy was choking himself with both hands while squirming on the bed at one point, and all of it because he was denied a second banana moments after throwing half of his first banana in the trash.

Kids; just completely nutzoid.

[aquart]

5. Have you considered a space between paragraphs?

Out of consideration for the people you expect to read this?

[11 Bravo]

46. Have you ever considered ... aaah, never mind, you might enjoy it, but ...

the doughnut would be inedible.

[villager]

6. Unrecc'd by those who clearly missed the point of your OP

Fellow parent here, also raising two boys (one who troops off for college in a year... sigh...)

And yes, kids at two (and you're right -- three!) do meltdown and lose it, for reasons we'll never quite know.

Those chiming in here about taking your kid elsewhere miss the point -- of course one tries to contain the melting down child, taking him/her elsewhere, etc. But even that is not always immediately possible.

These multiple threads on the subject on DU make me realize just how atomized, and generally non-supported, child-raisers are. There's just no support structure, really, from affordable, reliable child care (to decent schools) to places where they can be out in "the village" -- a phrase many here like except when it comes to our children -- and learn how to grow up into it.

Well, don't get me started. or maybe you did.

Thanks for posting...

[MadHound]

11. Oh please, climb a little higher on that cross

The fact of the matter is that it used to be a regular practice that a parent would remove a squalling child from a church, restaurant, shop, what have you, when their kid started acting out. Now it is a rare occurrence.

[villager]

15. Again, you are persistent in missing the point -- though not, apparently, the snark

The OP wasn't about not being responsible for your children -- it was about understanding they're not "brats" when they melt down.

Are there incompetent parents around? Sure. A whole scary bunch of them.

Which, actually, means we have to figure out better ways, collectively, to support kids. Because when you're old, those kids you despise will be all grown up.

[MadHound]

24. And apparently you're missing mine,

My point is to be responsible for your kids, and then we wouldn't have these ongoing angst driven discussions about banning kids from certain places:shrug:

[villager]

29. but no one is questioning "being responsible" -- hence my averring the OP's point was lost

It's about the kids who melt down. Because they melt down, they are not, ipso facto, "brats."

They are being 2 and 3 year-old "kids."

And I think the angst has a lot to do with the way kids are prodded to grow up instantly, regimented (at schools, at many homes,) etc. We really, collectively, don't know what the fuck to do with kids, anymore, or how to let them be kids, etc. So they grow up into the kinds of adults we're seeing today.

And in any case, I was responsible for my children. But I thank you for your entirely well-meaning retroactive concern.

[snagglepuss]

31. self delate responded to the wrong poster

[villager]

33. Huh?

What are you even talking about? Aside from trying to rationalize your antipathy to children?

[snagglepuss]

48. self delete as I replied to the wrong poster.

[Pithlet]

35. Right, because a swear that can be used for anything

and a slur is exactly the same thing.

[villager]

36. So wait -- we can insult children because people swear? Do I have that rationalization right?

Jesus, DU becomes weirder by the day...

[Pithlet]

39. Apparently so.

:silly:

[villager]

40. Sigh....

"Your smilie here."


;-)

[Pithlet]

43. Sometimes there's just no words, you know?

:)

[villager]

37. Emphatic DU dupe!

:thumbsup:

[snagglepuss]

50. Civility is a two way street. nt

[Pithlet]

52. Well, if ones feathers are ruffled by the word "shit"

then maybe an internet message board is a little too rough and tumble.

[snagglepuss]

57. Shit is offensive but I deal with it as I assume people either don't know or don't care.

Given that this is a public board I accept people use terms I find offensive, I suggest those who take offense at the term 'brat' do likewise.

[Pithlet]

58. That's unreasonable.

Most people can deal with the word shit. The vast majority in fact. Slurs are a different story. That's why there's a difference, see? I use the word shit frequently. But I don't go calling people names. I'm sorry, but you don't get to tell people they have to deal with insults because they used the word shit. That's ridiculous.

[11 Bravo]

59. Brat is a value judgement. Shit is a thing, (and some people are full of it).

[snagglepuss]

63. The concept of civility seems to escape you.

[villager]

72. Yes. Generally, when children are called names, they don't learn it. nt

[snagglepuss]

62. Since when is the term brat ,used to refer to a spoiled child,considered a slur?

So in your books referring to a bad driver as a jerk is also a slur.

[Pithlet]

68. My, my. For someone who's so bothered by "shit"

You feel you can tell someone else not to take umbrage at a term? A tad hypocritical, don't you think?

Actually, if someone wants to call an unruly child a brat, I won't lose any skin over it. I've been known to use it myself, though I actually do know someone who's highly offended at it, like you are with the "S" word, so I won't use it around her. But I still think the OP's point is valid. Witnessing a temper tantrum alone isn't evidence of a child's overall upbringing.

[villager]

71. +1. Or is that "+2," for both points?

;-)

[Pithlet]

73. Thanks

For both :)

[snagglepuss]

79. Although I dislike the term. I have not expressed umbrage because I don't have higher

expectations on a public message board, I have merely pointed out the hypocrisy. .

[Pithlet]

100. Yes, and more than one person has pointed out how ridiculous it is to claim it as one.

Can anyone who's ever used a swear word then not ever call anyone out for insulting people? No. Because it isn't the same thing.

[snagglepuss]

101. You're right they aren't the same thing - swear words are worse. Brat

is simply colloquial term which means an unruly child. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck. No one here or anywhere else for that matter has stated that all children are brats, this thread is sheer pout-rage.

[Pithlet]

102. No, this thread is simply stating a fact.

No one here has stated that? What DU do you visit? This place is like a lot of places on the internet. Full of people that simply cannot tolerate children and think think they're all horribly behaved and their parents are all simpletons. Often but not always accompanied by blathering about the decline of civilization nonsense (Back in my day, children were beaten when they misbehaved, then all you had to do was give them a look blarh blargh bluh bluh bluh!)

[snagglepuss]

108. Perhaps you can provide a quote. What I read are people saying that

an increasing number of children are clearly undisplined, so much so that businesses can actually make money by setting an age limit - a far cry from even a few years ago when businesses advertised being family friendly.

No business would take this step of alienating customers if they didn't think uncontrolled kids were becoming so common that it is adversely affecting their business. Many people slam other patrons as child haters which, besides being pure goofiness, completely ignores the stress unruly kids place on restaurant staff.

If parents acted responsibily this wouldn't be an issue but business know from experience that most parents really don't care.

[Pithlet]

110. No, I'm not going to provide a quote.

If your DU and internet experience has been different, how am I going to convince you? Would even a quote change it? Clearly you've missed the myriad posts I've seen on DU and all over the internet over the years. Hell, the whole Childfree movement. :shrug:

It's one frigging restaurant. Why this is being translated into a movement, I have no idea. There may be a few here and here that follow suit. But a movement? I hardly think so. This is a typical media bullshit story overreaction.

[Warren DeMontague]

136. It's Pittsburgh

known trend-setting center.

[11 Bravo]

104. Cool! I'm a pout-rager! Never mind that my kids are well-behaved 18 and 14 olds.

I simply objected to hearing crying children routinely labeled as "brats", and PRESTO! An anonymous internet nobody quickly erected a couple of strawmen, accused me of claiming that all children have been called brats; and then, having dug and tumbled into her hole, she continues to ask for a bigger shovel.

on edit: And, in her oh so humble opinion, she has also informed we heathens that "swear words are worse". Not "in my opinion", not "I think"; nope, it's a fucking fact and we best reconcile ourselves to it.

Damn, I think I was equally as full of myself at one time in my life, but then I turned four, quit crying in restaurants, and realized that I didn't have all the answers.

[Pithlet]

106. And swear words are worse to you.

I think most people would rather not be called names.

[pnwmom]

61. I rarely notice kids acting out. Maybe kids are better behaved these days

or maybe I'm just oblivious to it. It's nice when it does happen to know that someone else has to be responsible, not me!

(And I just took a couple plane flights and don't remember hearing a single crying baby.)

[polmaven]

76. And, for that matter,

I regularly see unsupervised children in the toy section of the supermarket. Like the parent/s just said..."oh, just go there and play while I/we finish up here". Of course, balls are flying over shelves into the neighboring aisles or into other shoppers who may be in the area, and the kids are yelling and screaming.

[Warren DeMontague]

129. That's the worst part about the supermarket

the flying balls.

[eridani]

95. Churches built in the 50s and after usually incorporated soundproofed "crying rooms" n/t

[Brigid]

130. My church, built in 1957, has one.

And parents still use it from time to time. :)

I am 53. My generation of kids was raised on "children should be seen and not heard" -- at least in some situations. Misbehavior, especially in public, was certainly not ignored, as I have noticed happening too often nowadays. And getting in trouble at school? That got you in twice as much trouble at home. My mother had the best "mom look" you ever saw, and she was perfectly ready to back it up with action if we kids didn't shape up real quick. Other kids we knew were raised pretty much the same way. Today, too many parents are just too distracted and stressed out to deal with their kids' typical "kid" behavior properly.

[Warren DeMontague]

135. I remember that crap about being seen and not heard.

I also remember when it was de rigueur to put lead in paint, beat your kids, throw garbage on the freeway, drive around town with them not seatbelted in.... in -20 degree weather, puff, puff, puffing on unfiltered cigarettes with the little ones in the back, yelling "shut yer piehole" when the brats had the temerity to ask for the window to be rolled down. Shit, I remember when Gay people, women, & African Americans were supposed to be "seen and not heard", too.

Ah, yesssss, the wonderful good old days. :eyes:

Yeah, we were quieter. Probably because we couldn't fucking breathe from the previous generation's god-damn cigarette smoke.

[Warren DeMontague]

128. No WAY!!!!! Kids are fucking up Church, nowadays, even??? Is NOTHING sacred?

I wouldn't know. I have more important things to do on Sunday morning, like sleep, masturbate, or watch "How Its Made" on the Discovery Channel.


I promise I won't bring my kids to church, if that makes you feel better. I can safely make that assurance.



But, seriously. Good for the kids.

[snagglepuss]

30. Many parents don't want a village raising their kids and take umbrage at

any attempt from strangers to educate their kids about manners.

[villager]

Do you raise kids? Do you, specifically, keep them at home all the time?

No one is talking about boundary-less interference. We're talking about ways to take kids out into the world.

[Obamanaut]

8. Many people agree that children can be wonderful human beings, but

will from time to time become unruly.

When 'unruly' occurs in a public venue such as a restaurant, it is common courtesy to use a geographic cure for the 'unruliness', that is, remove them and yourselves such that the other patrons are not subjected to the misbehavior that is no doubt totally alien to their norm.

[H2O Man]

9. Recommended.

(Even if my "recommend" doesn't show up.)

I have four children. Three of them post on DU (generally under H2O Man) from time to time.

They are in their teens and twenties now. But, exactly as you said, each was two, then three, well before reaching their present ages. As two- and three-year olds, each had a few outbursts in public. That is part of the human experience in today's complex modern society. But it is not a threat to, or crime against, that same society.

And there are at least a couple of more pressing issues facing us today in America.

[lapislzi]

10. I smiled at the Toys R Us reference

When my daughter was 3, she lost her shit in Toys R Us. Screaming, flinging herself on the floor, kicking. Despite having a full cart (I was picking up baby goods and stuff for a friend's shower), I walked out of the store.

Lesson learned by 3-year-old: the only reaction you can get from Mom if you throw a tantrum in public is that you will be removed from the scene and placed in your car seat.

Having had some horrific parenting experiences, I generally try to cut others some slack. The only exception is if my husband and I are dining in an upscale restaurant and children act up. I get annoyed if the parents don't remove the child.

My husband has a son with ADHD. He and his ex used to take turns walking around the parking lot with ADHD boy while the rest of the family (and the other patrons) enjoyed their meal in peace.

[bullwinkle428]

74. What is it about "Toys R Us"? LOL! I had to deal with an incident

in one when my stepdaughter was around 5, and she went completely ballistic when she realized I wasn't going to be purchasing her ultimate prized possesssion that day! Once the fit went into overdrive, I immediately picked her up and began carrying her out of the store on the way back to the car.

I distinctly recall a couple of elderly women giving me a "You, sir, are worse than Hitler!" look, just as she went into a full scream, as she apparently couldn't have acted out that way without some horrible provocation on my part. Anyway, she was removed from the scene ASAP, and I just proceeded to read her the riot act in the car on the way home!

[Odin2005]

120. Kids get excited easily over little things.

Yesterday when I was at Barnes and Noble a mom took her two young kids up into the cafe and they both turned super-hyper and jumping up and down with excitement when their mom told them she was buying them COOKIES. I thought it was hilarious!

[zazen]

13. bravo, Bravo--we also had greater social network for mothers 50+ yrs ago

I was the first to remove my children, when disruptive, from any public space, but when I read arrogant comments from childless people in particular (and I had some childless friends who made smug comments who are friends no more), I think, okay, please sign a contract refusing to accept any service from someone born from the point you began complaining, forward. My eldest is a highly successful, progressive, vivacious genius on her way to the Ivy League and she was certainly a screaming handful at two--smart kids usually are. Perhaps these child-haters can add their names to a web-based list so that my daughter and other future doctors like her will be sure to never corrupt these poor victimized adults with the sullied hands of humans who once screamed at age two.

If you're childless, fine--there are many ways to contribute to the future of the human race and the planet. However, some of us are busting our asses to raise productive children and giving up a helluva lot--frankly, an amount of work inconceivable to someone who's never raised children--to do it. Either appreciate it like we appreciate your privileges, or take care of your fucking selves when you're old and sick and can't find anyone to assist you in your own age group.

[Lance_Boyle]

23. Yeah, raising kids is hard work.

Bear in mind that it is also *volunteer* work.

[villager]

44. Is that why everyone is so free in "volunteering" their kid-less opinions about it?

;-)

[JoeyT]

88. Same reason so many people are so keen on volunteering kidless people to do it

whether they want to do it or not.

[barbtries]

84. not for long,

not in this country, not if the republicans have anything to say about it.

[11 Bravo]

86. I agree, but for a different reason. I remember singing my oldest to sleep as if it were yesterday.

Now he towers over me, and is getting ready to go out and make his way in the world. Not for long, indeed.

[Romulox]

32. I don't WHO you child turns out to be--you didn't have them as a "gift" to the world...

It's a ridiculous proposition.

[zazen]

113. then don't let the "gifts" treat or cure your diseases or wipe your ass

when you're in a nursing home.

Human civilization moves forward because mostly women, though fortunately in our time and culture some selfless men as well, bust their asses volunteering thankless days and sleepless nights to raise informed, compassionate, creative, conscientious, responsible adults to keep human society going.

Do we screw up despite our best intentions, and are our efforts ultimately (and probably thankfully) limited by the free will of said children? Yes. But we work hard, and it is a gift to others. As is other volunteer work that gets a lot more public attention.

The volunteer labor of parents (and primarily the unpaid labor women) should not be trivialized.

The mother-hating and -blaming on this thread is so transparent.

[Romulox]

144. They'll do those things, if at all, for MONEY, not magnanimity...

"The volunteer labor of parents (and primarily the unpaid labor women) should not be trivialized. "

Nonsense. You didn't have your kids for me. You are not offering me any "volunteer" labor, and in fact, my taxes support your ability to procreate. I do not begrudge you this support, but I draw the line at your sanctitmony; your kids are not a "gift" to me, and if they ever were to wipe my ass, as you put it, it would only be for money, not the kindness of their hearts. :eyes:

[Odin2005]

121. Uh-oh, the kid-haters will flame you for calling them "childless".

They prefer "childfree". :puke:

[Frisbee]

148. Offspring-challenged? n/t

[kestrel91316]

14. The parents who do not teach their children how to behave in public and

who allow those children to ruin other diners' experiences are the brats. The children are their victims because good behavior is learned only if taught.

[LanternWaste]

17. I become far more annoyed far more often with adults acting out than with children doing the same...

In my case, I become far more annoyed far more often with adults acting out than with children doing the same.

Not too many toddlers blast their bass at 3am outside my apartment door, and even fewer children curse at me for having different political or religious beliefs than they do. I am unaware of any child who wants to increase the age for Social Security, and am unaware of any child instigating a decade long, overseas war we really have no business being in (excluding Shrub, of course).

But I realize we all have pet peeves we want to lash out at for visceral satisfaction and academically rationalize afterwards.

[Maine-ah]

18. kudos!

:yourock:

[kestrel91316]

21. Oh, and children's inability to control their own behavior when young is why

the Victorians, in their wisdom, did not allow them out in public to wreak havoc until they could mind their manners.

[Pithlet]

45. But do we really want to model our world around the Victorians?

Honestly. I think we've progressed from there, and for good reason.

[Luminous Animal]

116. That would be wealthy Victorians who had the luxury of keeping their children as shut-ins.

I know how my grandpa and his brother grew up in a Victorian household in Philadelphia... and it was f-u-u-u-cked up. My brother and sister and I hated that dour cheerless household. On the other hand, the greats on my mom side were hard scrabble farmers, extra-ordinarily loving and had no problem being seen in public with us.

[MrsMatt]

140. those children were too busy

working in factories to act up

[LaurenG]

25. Why is this even an issue here?

Some parents raise bratty children, most of us don't and are mortified when our kids behave badly and ALL children have behaved badly at some point in time.

Why people are taking offense to this absolutely boggles my mind.

[madmom]

26. when people go to an up scale restaurant they are paying not only for the food, but

the ambiance, the atmosphere. I am sure that screaming babies is not part of the atmosphere they thought they were paying for.

[TK421]

83. I was just thinking of movie theaters and the fact that I just paid ten

bucks to escape for a little while after a long work week, only to have it ruined by people who bring in a screaming baby or young child...

What REALLY pisses me off is they will just sit there and do nothing about it

[11 Bravo]

96. And that is a separate issue. The parents were inconsiderate. The child was not necessarily a brat.

FUCK! I'm getting tired of making this distinction.

[TK421]

117. This isn't one instance I'm talking about

I understand the child was not necessarily a brat

FUCK! Why would anyone insist on bringing in a kid who screams through a movie?

It is the lack of consideration on their part

[11 Bravo]

146. Perhaps the baby in question neglected to state, "I say, mother and father, I intend ...

to lose my fucking mind for the next two hours."
The parents should have removed the child. You appear to be of the opinion that they should never have allowed the little critter out of the house.

[TK421]

147. the "little critter" was screaming on the way IN to the theater!! OKAY?!

and as far as your above statement, I never said they shouldn't have let them out of the house, but if they were behaving like that don't-fucking-bring them in to a theater and RUIN everyone elses night! I AGREED WITH YOU that they should have removed the child. FUCK! is right!

I swear some people were born just to fucking argue, and thats their only purpose

[kirby]

28. Its not the child, its the parents reaction...

If the child acts up, the child should be removed from the situation. It is really how the parents react that determines if it is poor parenting or whether the child will turn out to be a brat. The parent who tries to have a rational conversation with a brain that has not yet developed is the poor one. All my humble opinion.

[pnwmom]

64. I used to stress out, when I was the one with the young children.

(Of course, I did remove them if the situation called for it -- but sometimes you can't, such as when you're holding a crying baby on a plane.)

Now that the children belong to someone else, I don't stress out at all. If that baby on the plane is crying, or if the two-year old in the check out line is having a tantrum, big deal. It's not my problem. I won't let anything like that ruin my mood.

[Taverner]

34. No but every child who loses their shit is a distraction to other customers

It's not a judge of the kid - everyone's kids lose their shit every so often

But its about the other customers

You go to some place like Applebees and customers expect that. Hence the loud muzak.

But you go to a fine restaurant, and the atmosphere is quiet. If you kid can behave bring them in. If they can't, all it takes is one outburst to have the mood spoiled for everyone.

[Bill McBlueState]

55. yup,

and at a classy restaurant, the management deals with problem customers on an as-needed basis. They don't pre-emptively ban an entire class of customers, most of whom never cause a problem, and then run around looking for media attention.

[pnwmom]

66. I disagree. We can choose to let someone else's child ruin our mood

or we can choose to shrug our shoulders and say: "I'm glad I'm not in that parent's shoes right now." Or "poor kid, she looks tired."

But one misbehaving child isn't going to ruin the mood of everyone in the restaurant. Adults have a choice in how they react -- more than a 2 year old does.

[Odin2005]

122. BINGO! You get a cookie!

[renate]

38. I remember the thread about your son and the MP3 player

It seems like a long time ago, but I do remember it... it was so sweet! You must be so proud of him and his brother. :hug:

[Romulox]

41. It's not about the child, it's about the parent. Children = projection of the parents' egos

So when a parent lets their precious snowflake scream in the middle of a restaurant, it is the same thing as the parent telling each patron, "MY dining party has a right to disrupt the experience of each and every one of you."

This has little to do with the child, and everything to do with the parents.

[hobbit709]

42. I've had to listen to 8 year olds acting like that.

and treating the $20 entree restaurant like a Chuck E cheese.

[barbtries]

47. kids behave.

sometimes they behave well, sometimes not so well. they're kids. i haven't read all the threads that are apparently floating around DU but of the two i have seen yours expresses my opinion the best. i've raised 4 kids and there were good times, great times, and some pretty bad times. my own behavior has not been uniformly good either. generally speaking if i went off on the kids it was in the home. for the kids it was wherever we happened to be.

my oldest son is a successful plumber with three beautiful children
my middle son is in law school 20th out of 147 in his class
my youngest son is a sophomore at a university studying athletic training.

my daughter was killed when she was 21 but you just have to take my word for it she was on her way to a fabulous life full of love and good work.

i flew across country sitting behind a young family. the kids were something like 2, 1, and early infancy. it was pretty miserable, but i guarantee that it was worse for the parents than anyone else on the plane. it was christmas time; should they have missed their chance to be with family and let their family enjoy the children for a while? as we were getting off the plane, the dad said to my son, "never have kids." any animosity i was feeling dissolved with that statement. in future i plan to exhibit the most sanguine patience possible.

[11 Bravo]

56. There are those here who would tell you that the little fuckers should have been strapped into a ...

parachute and tossed toward something that looked soft.

[WCGreen]

49. I understand that kids can burst every now and then...

But who would take six or seven kids under the age of 5 out to a Fridays on a Saturday night at 10:00 and then let them run wild...

I complained and the manager, standing in the bar, said this is a family restaurant...

I left.

Haven't been back.

[drpepper67]

97. I have a better one.

Why would someone have a birthday party for a 5 year old at Chili's at 9:00 PM?

The nuclear meltdown from that fiasco would have powered a small city for a month...

[Lucian]

51. Yeah...

anyone on this site who has raised kids who are all perfect, intelligent, and know when to behave.

Blah, blah, blah.

[snagglepuss]

53. Given you use the word shit without any regard that others may find that offensive,

you certainly don't have grounds for taking offense when others use use the term brat.

[pnwmom]

65. He wasn't using that word in name-calling. People who use the word "brat" are.

The comparison fails.

[snagglepuss]

80. He is using a profanity in a public space. Profanity until recently has always

been deemed rude and uncivil. The term brat is on par with the term jerk, both are simply colloquial terms to describe irritating individuals. Where is the hue and cry on DU each time someone has used the term jerk?

[lapislzi]

70. If the word "shit" offends you...

1) hide the thread
2) don't post here

For as long as I've been here, the language has been salty. The general rule about line-crossing is slurs on people or groups. Shit's...shit, yanno?

[snagglepuss]

81. Spare me your knee jerk reaction. I stated that the term shit is offensive

and its hypocritical for the OP to complain about language when he himself is oblivious to offending others. Ialso stated the I deal with profanity becasue it is a public message. At no point have I demanded that he retract his OP. I merely point out the blatant hypocrisy.

[11 Bravo]

85. Are you fucking kidding me?

(Oops, hope you aren't offended.) Are you seriously conflating calling a three year old child a "brat", and taking issue with a fully-grown adult using a word which causes you to clutch your pearls?
If you don't like my language, fine. (I'll resist the urge to say "tough ****.) But your attempt to draw a corollary between that and belittling a crying child is idiocy; and your use of the term "hypocrisy" indicates that you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the word.

[snagglepuss]

87. From what you describe in your OP, no one called your kid a brat. No one

said anything. By all appearances you simply don't like the term brat used to describe unruly children which suggests you are too thinned skinned.

[11 Bravo]

89. Nor did I state that anyone called either of my sons a brat.

And fuck "by all appearances". Try reading the OP, slowly this time. What I did was take issue with the routine labeling of crying children on airplanes, in restaurants, in theaters, etc, as "brats". No mention of what the parents should do ... simply an objection to calling toddlers by a pejorative without knowing a thing about it.
Now, if you choose to claim that crying children have not been routinely referred to "brats" on this forum, then you are either dishonest or willfully ignorant.

[snagglepuss]

90. People are routinely referred to as jerks, does that mean all people are jerks?

[11 Bravo]

92. Adults are also routinely referred to as assholes, scumbags, shitheads, and mother-fuckers.

I am of the opinion that children should be judged by a different standard.

[lapislzi]

98. oh, stop.

You're making a false equivalence. And a distraction.

[snagglepuss]

99. Care to support your assertion that this is false equivalence?

[Blue-Jay]

114. How about....

deuce
poop
dump
dookey
crap
turd
chud
brown rag doll
poopscapade
chocolate hotdog
fudge dragon
mud monkey
Jersey Brownsnake
The Cleveland Browns

[demosincebirth]

54. Not this again!

[kentauros]

67. I know!

It's as bad as the "debate" over one or two spaces after a period! :P

[Brigid]

134. That's two spaces there, whippersnapper!

:P

[uppityperson]

60. 1 time I managed to say the right thing to an adult at the right time.

Was looking through strawberries at local grocery store, carefully choosing ones which were good since this store had a habit of packing ones going bad into boxes and topping with a few good ones. They also had a bunch loose to pick and chose from. My 5 yr old was helping me and this older woman finally said "CAN'T you stop him from touching all the berries!??" To which I replied "I've tried beating him and he just won't stop" and looked at her. She immediately back tracked and said "no, that isn't what I meant" while my child looked at us in puzzlement. I explained to her the problem with this store's produce and that I appreciated the help picking out good berries, AND he got to learn and chose what was good. She agreed it was ok and dove into the bunch with us.

He wasn't licking his fingers or anything like that, had as clean of hands as I did. It was just that he was a child, and she assumed he was a brat and that I was either a poor parent, stupid or lazy.

[ejpoeta]

77. thank you for the laugh. i could see my husband saying something like that.

that's the problem. people assume things.

[Odin2005]

124. ROFLMAO!!!

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

132. I'm usually a day late with comebacks but it just happened right, once.

Taught to be polite even to the impolite, is nice to once in a while say f* it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. The problem is not kids who have meltdowns

The problem is parents who sit there and do nothing while their kid's screaming.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

75. Look, I can see both sides of the argument here

I am single and, even if I do get married, it is unlikely that I will ever have children because I have a disability that I fear may be hereditary and I don't want to pass it on to them. Yet I also have a nephew and a niece who are toddlers and are prone to the odd temper tantrum or very loud crying/whining/whatever else in public. I also remember when I was very young and, while I was generally a well-behaved child, I was not a little angel and I did have my moments.

I don't expect young children to be perfect in public. They are only human and children. I also don't automatically assume that every parent not preventing their child from their temper tantrums and their screaming and whining is a bad parent and I am willing to be patient and cut them a little slack in that regard. Where I do draw the line is when the child in question is being openly disruptive and disturbing other customers and patrons (and by that I don't mean whining or crying or screaming, by that I mean things like running around in aisles or around the restaurant or throwing things or whatever else). And I will assume that parents are guilty of bad parenting when they encourage their children to behave in such a manner that is disruptive or potentially dangerous to other people). I'll give you three examples of what I'm talking about

(1) This one is kind of complicated to explain but I'll try. I know of someone who worked as a waitress in a restaurant. One day she was carrying some very hot dishes and there was a young child misbehaving and running about and blocking her way, with the parents ignoring the disruptive antics of their offspring . While in the process of being disruptive, he knocked into her and for a split second she faced the dilemma of (1) having the dish fall on the child and the child receiving burns as a result or (2) being able to catch the dish but having its contents spill over her, effectively meaning that she would get scalded in the process. She managed to accomplish the latter so that the naughty child was saved from being burned while she got painfully scalded because of his antics

(2) Last year, when I was in the supermarket, there was a father trying to entertain his young toddler who was sitting in the child's seat of a trolley. He was standing at the end of a shopping aisle and carelessly spinning the trolley around and around and going "wheeeeeee". He was doing it so carelessly that he could have knocked into items in the supermarket shelf or injured other patrons in the process. He was not only endangering other people, he was endangering his own kid!

(3) Tonight, at the shopping centre, there were two children who were holding those long-shaped balloons (you, know, the ones that look like police batons) and having a mock sword fight in the middle of a very crowded area. They were carelessly hitting other customers in the process of hitting each other and the mother was actively egging them on despite the fact that they were in a crowded spot in the middle of a crowded shopping centre.

I see more and more examples of both kids and their parents behaving badly in public. And that doesn't mean crying or screaming or temper tantrums. It means engaging in behavior that is disruptive and dangerous both to themselves and other people

As a general rule, I love kids and am sympathetic to parents who are dealing with a crying or angry child. I just think that some parents -not the majority but some -need to learn to improve the behavior of both their children and themselves

[Bluerthanblue]

78. K& RR!

even if you never 'have' children, you can't escape the fact that you were one once,
and many of us still are.

:hi:

[Prism]

91. Children are insane

But in a fun way. I'm a few months away from teaching early childhood education. Having spent the past few semesters marinating in courses like child psychology and early development, it's amusing just how totally insane children are. The other day I watched a three year old Totally. Lose. Her. Shit. in the middle of the grocery store. The mother's face was like that of an officer on a starship as the alien starts clawing its way out of her stomach. That mixture of horror and WTF?! on her face. I felt for her.

I think people forget that children are not "tiny adults" - they're children. And a child having a meltdown is fairly routine behavior.

It's saddening to see the weird anti-child vibe in all these posts. I'm childless and likely to remain so, but if I am having My Entire Day Ruined! because a child somewhere is crying, I'm likelier to put the problem on me. Seriously. What could a small child do to so upend my life that I have to get, not just angry, but furious with rage and opinion about children?

Meh. Whatever. People are miserable.

[11 Bravo]

115. Bless you! After the army and college (thank you GI bill) I was an elementary public school ...

teacher for 32 years. After retirement I continued to substitute almost every day, and will start up again in a few weeks.
You'll never be rich, but if you're anything like me, you will look forward to going to work every single day. How many people can say that?

[Prism]

137. I find children too entertaining

I sometimes wonder how effective a teacher I'll be when I can't even keep a straight face when they're supposed to be in trouble with me. "But Mr. Prism, you said you wanted a picture for the wall!" Yes, Billy, for the wall, not on the wall. Wait, you did this with marker?! Aggggh.

While assisting at a preschool this summer, I've had so much fun I feel like I'm getting away with something.

[Odin2005]

125. It's because people are selfish, they think the world must cater their needs and no one else's.

A lot of people without kids just see them as something that gets in the way rather than little human beings.

[Prism]

138. I'll never understand it

I can understand parents needing time away after being driven up and down every wall of their house. But the hostility that some of the childless express towards kids. What on earth? That hostility bothers me. I feel like we're jumping some kind of cultural shark here. As if the Me Generation is starting to cross some damaging lines.

[TNLib]

93. I can't believe people are so intolerant on this forum

Every segment of society is excepted with equal rights and equality, but children and parents it really is disturbing.

[laundry_queen]

107. It's pretty shocking to me also, considering that type of intolerance

is usually reserved for the other side of the aisle. It just goes to show that the right doesn't own the 'mememememe' attitude.

[nini]

94. They're brains are not fully formed which is why

THEIR PARENTS need to attempt to control them and if the child is on a tear they need to remove them from the situation.

That's all anyone expects from parents.

[11 Bravo]

111. If I was a wealthy man, I would fly to LA ...

and read the OP to you, really slowly, just to see if you could grasp the fact that I have no disagreement with the opinion that parents should try to control, and if that fails, remove screaming kids from some public settings.

All I said is that a crying 3 year old ain't automatically a "brat". After that a host of agenda-drivem, strawman-erecting creatures showed up and began to spew.

[nini]

123. WTF is your problem?

Why the snark since we technically agree?

Lighten up Francis!

[Mimosa]

103. *Somebody* is feeling guilty?

Age 3 is usually too young an age to take kids out to 'fine dining' restaurants. And movies are usually too long a period to expect a 3 year old to be quiet. ;)

[11 Bravo]

112. Perhaps *somebody* needs to work on their reading comprehension skills.

Unless you can find that part of the OP wherein it was suggested that 3 year olds be taken to "find dining" restaurants, I will point out again, as I have done numerous times on this thread to the reading challenged; all the OP said is that crying children are not necessarily brats. If you disagree, then say so, but please stop trying to change what I said.
P.S. You are free to start your own "kids suck" thread.

[Kaleva]

105. First of all, they shouldn't be shitting in a public place.

[malaise]

109. Lovely post

Kids should be allowed to be kids. Funny I can't remember a kid annoying us at a restaurant. I've even made faces with a few. I just don't get it.

[Odin2005]

118. My 4yo nephew is a little brat, but I love that little brat!

:D

[blueamy66]

139. Ha! I have a 4 yo great nephew who is a brat too!

But I love that little brat to death!!! :-)

He's just too darn cute to not love!! He just got a Justin Bieber haircut. :-) The girls are gonna swoon.

[Ilsa]

119. That's right. Little ones don't have the ability to control

those intense emotions and behaviors. It takes time and practice to develop that skill, and some kids need more time than others.

That being said, I think it is important for some parents to remember that not all children are supposed to be taken to certain events or places. They aren't ready to tackle them yet.

[cherish44]

126. My daughter was a drama princess prone to "meltdowns" at that age

I think of times I had to remove her kicking and screaming from places with her screaming "Somebody help me!" (I'm sure everyone thought I was kidnapping her...needless to say I was red faced). She outgrew it. She's actually a very polite, well-behaved, well-adjusted 15 year old now but yeah I had a few challenging years and it wasn't because I was a bad parent or she was a brat. It's mostly a phase and if you're consistant with discipline and patient, you'll get through it.

[Warren DeMontague]

127. Sometimes they just need to whine, piss, moan, bitch, and throw a giant entitled tantrum.

I'm not talking about kids.. I'm talking about the kid-bemoaners on DU whose poor lives have, apparently, been completely and utterly destroyed by being in the vicinity of someone else's screaming or crying child, once.

[prayin4rain]

143. agreed. people will stop at nothing in their pursuit to find something to be annoyed with n/t

[donheld]

131. Maybe they just need a better diaper

[Bluebear]

133. Can't think of anymore more unappetizing than someone shitting in a restaurant, sorry

[swilton]

141. The most recent moves by the airlines

to censor children from their flights is the latest move by the airline industry to shift the blame for their declining services (less space, no-poor food, longer waits, over-booking) resulting in widespread passenger/consumer dissatisfaction from the airline industries deregulation policies to children and parents...

It's not the parents and children stupid!

[Warren DeMontague]

145. It's like anything else; they'll offer it to you if you're willing to pay an arm and a leg

But I agree; flying has become Greyhound-in-the-skies. Kids aren't the problem.

[in_cog_ni_to]

149. Well now...we have something in common!

:) My son is leaving in a few weeks for college also (:( I can't dwell on it either..*sigh*)! His age 3 was worse than age 2 also. He had his "moments" when he was 3 years old ... when we were out in public. Sometimes, not always, would have a meltdown for whatever reason, but grew up to be a wonderful young man. :)

I think some social situations just put them in overload and they don't know how to adapt to them emotionally.... Melting down is how they deal with it. We left a few restaurants/movies/stores when he was small. I'm glad those days are over though. :) They were NOT fun.

I bet the majority of anti-kids people posting on these threads...were little "brats" themselves at 3 years old when out in public. I'm sure I was. :)