14th Amendment: Section 4.

[rosesaylavee]

14th Amendment: Section 4. "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. ..."

So if Congress refuses to deal with our National Debt, is it Treason? I think the US Constitution is pretty clear that addressing our debt is their responsibility. If we incur more debt to our deficit - some say as initially this will cost us $100 Billion, do we hold the members of Congress responsible?

I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level.

[annabanana]

1. It's right there. . . . Simply Put, . . . uncontestable. .

Or so the Founding Fathers thought.

[rosesaylavee]

2. Recalling them is the next option.

Fortunately our Founding Fathers also knew that power corrupts.

[onenote]

8. and yet our founding fathers didn't include a provision for recall in the Constitution

Because they also knew that the whims of the electorate can change on a dime and that constant recalls would be destructive. Indeed, our founding fathers insulated both the election of the President and the election of the Senate from the whims of the electorate and further provided for the appointment, rather than election, of judges.

[rosesaylavee]

12. Thank you again...

http://www.senate.gov/CRSReports/crs-publish.cfm?pid='0E%2C*PL%5B%3A%230%20%20%0A
*PL%5B%3A%230%20%20%0A">Recall of Legislators and the Removal of Members of Congress from Office (if link doesn't work - search 'Recall of Legislators' for online pdf at http://www.senate.gov/ )


However, if there is sufficient evidence that comes to light, the Senate and House both have proceedings to remove members.

From the summary at link:
"While there are no specific grounds for an expulsion expressed in the Constitution, expulsion
actions in both the House and the Senate have generally concerned cases of perceived disloyalty
to the United States..."

[onenote]

14. Of course, there is no way the Democrats in the House can expel any repubs

so you can forget about that option. Indeed, urging its use simply encourages the tyranny of the majority.

[rosesaylavee]

18. So our only recourse then is to continue to write letters

and wave signs? I don't see that as having an effect long term.

[onenote]

21. work to vote out the tea partiers in 2012

[rosesaylavee]

22. Already on my 'to do' list

Starting my district rep.

[robcon]

3. Founding Fathers???? The 14th amendment was passed in 1868.

n/t

[rosesaylavee]

4. Does this add to the discussion?

Who the fuck cares what word is used here? The point is that those who created our Constitution as we now know it would be appalled. They thought this would have been handled.

[Llewlladdwr]

34. I believe it demonstrates that you don't know what you're talking about.

Failure to understand that the 14th Amendment wasn't part of the original Constitution is kind of a big deal when one is discussing said Constitution and Amendment.

[rosesaylavee]

39. Well duh.

I think it demonstrates you didn't understand what I wrote.

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. ROFL

:thumbsup:

I'm glad you said it so I didn't have to.

Was the 26th Amendment also passed by "our Founding Fathers?"

:rofl:

[elocs]

17. Well I'm certain the Supreme Court could rule on this and settle it .

I'm equally certain that the Founding Fathers notwithstanding, nobody here would be happy with its ruling.

[Major Hogwash]

31. Naw, they'd give the prez the power to save the entire stinking country.

The Supremes are all about power shifts in this country.
And they know that although Congress may not like it this time, they can pass another amendment and try to change it later.

[Major Hogwash]

32. Okay, now I'm in love with you.

"Or so the Founding Fathers thought."

You're cuter than a little kitten.

This is not a sex thread.

[badtoworse]

5. Sorry, but you're reading too much into it.

There is nothing in the amendment that requires the government to borrow money to pay the debts identified. The debt can be paid by spending less money elsewhere. What it says to me is that those debts have first call on available cash.

In our present situation, it means the government will have to defer some spending, reduce services and state aid, close parks, etc., and furlough non-essential employees, if necessary to pay the debt.

I haven't heard anyone say the debt won't be serviced.

[rosesaylavee]

9. Ok. But

what about incurring debt by NOT addressing it in a timely fashion. I think incurring $100 Billion+ over a political ploy is treasonous.

[badtoworse]

11. At the very least, it's grossly negligent.

[rosesaylavee]

15. And as we don't realize as of today

what next week will bring IF they really do not raise the debt ceiling, and the global economy is thrown into a spriraling downward mess... we as a nation will need to consider some kind of action to address the inaction of those we have elected to represent us.

[onenote]

6. Since you have a copy of the Constitution, look at Article III, Sec 3

No, its not treason. Its bad policy.

And as far as recall elections go, be careful what you ask for.

[rosesaylavee]

10. Thank you

I see the perameters now for Treason. So unless we get some documentation that Grover Norquist and others are attempting to undermine our global economy, we will need to use other means.

And yes, I understand what recall elections would do. There may be no other recourse here shortly the way I am seeing it.

[piratefish08]

13. Not an option. President Obama made that clear.

[rosesaylavee]

16. I respect the President

but he is not us. We elected these people. We will have to find a way to address their inaction if it comes to it.

[elocs]

19. Yes, and likely all of these people were elected without thousands of us bothering to vote,

but we sure don't like the results of our inaction.

[rosesaylavee]

20. Agreed.

That is a large part of the problem. Saw a video of your state's Voter ID in action yesterday. Makes me all the more motivated to fight these people.

[alc]

23. Obama must pay public debt (no default) and pensions

We have more than enough revenue each month for that. It looks to me like the 14th says Obama can shut down every government program and fire every federal employee, but he has to pay public debt (the SS trust fund is not public debt so screw it if necessary). repubs will probably try to argue that all the wars are suppressing insurrection by keeping the wars "over there", but I'd guess those can be shut down before defaulting on public debt.

I can actually see an argument that raising the debt ceiling without significant cuts or revenue increases is NOT an option because it could put us in violation of the 14th amendment in 10-20 year.

[melm00se]

24. I'll call your 14th Amendment, sec 4 and raise

you Article I, section 8, paragraphs 1 & 2.

If the Executive Branch continues to spend money that the government does not have, that is de facto borrowing of money (paragraph 2) and/or raising of revenue (paragraph 1). Both of these functions are explicit Congressional powers and the President would be overstepping his authority and that will bring in the USSC to resolve this dispute.

based upon my reading of Article I and the 14th Amendment, one explicitly empowers the Legislative Branch with a power and the other one does not specifically empower a branch of government.

[rosesaylavee]

25. Tell that to every President we have had

in my life time then. We have always spent more than we have. We have had a deficit for a very long time. During the Bush II years, the debt ceiling was raised 7 times and during Reagan's time, over 12 times. This is a procedure that is fairly common order of business and it is the CHOICE of the current GOP lead House that is making this crisis.

If the GOP breaks this economy, their party will not recover from the fallout.

[paparush]

28. Um, remember who you're dealing with. The 'Murkin public won't do shit

to the Rethugs.

The pols will lie lie lie and the M$M will spin spin spin and Jane and Joe six pack will just have to suck it up and make greater sacrifices in the name of Freedom(tm) Their kids will have to go to community college and pay 15% interest on their loans. Granny had lived a good long life. Who cares if the Medicare cuts shortened her life by 5-10 years. And hell, dad's a tough guy, he can work till he's 72, right?

:sarcasm:

[rosesaylavee]

29. I think somehow this will be different.

This will cut very very deep and services that millions count on will no longer be there. People will take to the streets and we will have a tide of anger that will take a lot to overcome.

I don't think the GOP has any idea what they are unleashing. Or maybe I pray that they are that stupid as if this goes forward, it may take everything we have as a country to get ourselves back on track.

[paparush]

37. I hope you are right. People need to be in the streets using the only voice we have left.

[melm00se]

33. the point is that

Congress raised the debt ceiling. if Congress declines to do so and the President tries to end run that and tries to use the 14th Amendment as place to sit, that chair may very well be pulled out from under him.

[Sportsguy]

26. K & R!

"I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level. "

Exactly.:patriot:

[Llewlladdwr]

38. How would this be accomplished?

I'm interested to see what you think the mechanism for such an action would be.

[MadinMo]

27. K&R

"I suggest that if Wisconsin can recall it's state representatives, the American people should start to consider that an option too at the Federal level. "

Double exactly!!

[Major Hogwash]

30. Keith was talking about this the other day, and it looks like it may be the final solution

Since this has never been done before, Obama will have to save the country ALL BY HIMSELF!!!!!!

And if you don't think he will get re-elected then, well, think again.
Yo ho.

[Doctor_J]

36. Obama doesn't have the nerve

otherwise this stroke would be perfect.

[Doctor_J]

35. I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton would have pulled this

He was too far right on some things, but he knew who the real enemy was, and knew how to deal with them.