So this morning I saw a very funny bumper sticker

[nadinbrzezinski]

it had pictures of Jefferson, Washington and Adams... and it read... RIGHT WING LOONS like me.

Ok, Adams is the closest to a RW loon, and I would not go so far as to call him a royalist. So I was laughing my ass off when owner came out with his groceries. He asled me what was so funny. I pointed to the bumper sticker...

So he proceeded to lecture me on how Jefferson was such a conservative... a circle quickly formed... that surprised me. Actually that was scary for about five seconds. After saith right winger was done I asked him if he thought the Declaration was a conservative document?

Well of course.

So I calmly asked him how a document declaring independence from the KING, questioning the social order, was a conservative document?

He him and hawed and then said, well it is about liberty.

So I promptly asked him what did he believed the founders believed liberty to be? (At this point the crowd was starting to chuckle)

He looked on him and hawed, and said something bout them darn libruls.

So I pointed to him that Jefferson wasn't even that original about that pursuit of liberty thing... I mean he took it, almost verbatim, from John Locke's on Government... his clue as to what they considered one of the elements of liberty is in John Locke. Then I turned and started for the car. He was left there and he could not comprehend what was so funny. One of the other people thanked me. I asked for what? Well, as she put it, time to recapture our symbols from these loons. This is not what the Founders wanted.

That gives me SOME HOPE.

Realize this is not in the far place call DC... but we may stil recapture this place.

[petronius]

1. Wow, just like an ancient Greek agora

Where do you shop? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Ralphs actually, and it happens from time to time

People are starting to get involved... believe it or not.

And I would not call it a Greek Agora, but something more AMERICAN... you familiar with the Public Square? FYI, according to the California Supreme Court, your local mall is the equivalent of the public square these days.

Why is it that we have people on this site making fun of people? It is sometimes a funny thing.

And yes that has happened a few times.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillyT]

4. K & R !!!

:kick:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Thanks the usual suspects of course are at it again

what can I say? Most of us have had an encounter like this or two

[Historic NY]

6. Father of Liberalism....John Locke....I love when their heads explode.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. What scares me is that we do not share the same history at this point

and this is part of the problem. Even if a lot of it is myth... Washington did tell lies after all... it is a common experience.

[MadMaddie]

10. The history is being marginalized and as I like to put it

cleansed to fit their view of the world.

The problem is we have schoolastic organizations that are over run by religious zeolots....For instance in TX they are removing any mention of Thurgood Marshall as the First black Supreme Court Justice....it gets worse...

[MadMaddie]

8. Well played!

Education is the key.

The bottom line is there are more of us that are informed than them.

My favorite argument from them is "The Country was founded on Christianity" or allof the founders were Christian...........err...you do know why they fled England right?....sigh...

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. What was funny with this guy was that

he truly bought the crap... sadly I am in the middle of working on the Causes for Independence and history of labor... and it is so far more complex than the cartoon story.

By the way on the Christian nation side of it...

1.- Because of the First Revival the basis for the First Amendment was passed in the House of Burgess in 1776... in Virginia...

And

2.- Due to the First Great Revival they could, if they knew the history... make a weak case... as in very weak case.

That is the scary part.

[MadMaddie]

12. Yea, you know the saying

give them an inch...and they want the whole country..

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yep, fortunately that hsitory is way too much inside baseball

for most people... I wish it wasn't...alas it is.

[white_wolf]

18. When they bring up the Christain Nation argument

I just cite the Treaty of Tripoli.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Treaty of what? Yep I have had that answer

:-)

[white_wolf]

20. I blame a lot of this ignorance on David Barton.

He's been called the Historian of the Tea Party. I just call him an idiot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I blame it on general anti intellectualism

and goes father back than the 20, or 19th century. Yep, as American as Apple Pie.

[flamingdem]

9. rec! nice nt

[GoldenThunder]

14. It all about icons

Just be thankful that Kermit the Frog wasn't one of our founding fathers. Otherwise, the Tea Party today would be greener than Ralph Nader.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Now that is a funny one

greener than Ralph Nader...

Welcome to DU by the way

:hi:

[pansypoo53219]

16. time to stop letting them to get away with bullshit.

the conservatots are not patriots.

[white_wolf]

23. They aren't.

They are proto-fascists. Give them enough power and you'd see them become the real thing, though I don't know if they'd lean more towards the Classic Italian School or the Nazi German School.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I'd say the American school

fascism will take on very American signatures...

[freshwest]

17. Wow, I feel better. Thanks Nadin

[white_wolf]

22. That is the trouble when dealing with reactionaries.

Historical figures are much more likely to appear to be on their side than on the side of progressives, because we've moved forward and the reactionaries are still living in the 1700s. So the Right holds closer views to these historical figures than the Left, but if you look at them in the context of their time you find that they were left wing for their time and would likely be left wing if they were alive today. Well except Paine,because even judging him by today's standards he's to the left of the right wing. Hell, if he was alive today he'd probably be a communist of some type.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Even now Jefferson is not a conservative

by any stretch... Adams was, but more in the BURKIAN conservative tradition. One that I dare say is a close cousin of liberalism and one that modern day conservatives do not understand. Washington was a military man... and an enlightenment figure... and lucky. But let's not go there.

Paine these days, would be what he was back then... a true pain in the arse for the state and if this is the before the French Revolution is a different man than the after the Terror.

[white_wolf]

25. Per Paine he seems to have gotten more radical as he aged.

How did he change after the terror? I mean worldview wise? I know he ended up being rejected by pretty much all the other founders and died penniless, but I don't know much about his views after he published Agrarian Justice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. He realized that indeed power corrupts

and that extremism was not a good idea. While he was all for popular organization, he really distrusted the extremes of the state after the Terror. It affected him, in a different way than Burke...

As to died penniless, funny, most of them did. Jefferson was technically bankrupt on his death bed, so was Madison and Adams, of the list of well knowns. Most died poor.

[SlimJimmy]

29. Adams believed in, and was excoriated for his views concerning, a

strong central government. In what manner does that make him a true "conservative"? Burke was in favor a representative form of governance as opposed to merely being a "delegate". He is also considered to be the founder of "Classical" liberalism. I just don't see the true comparison with Adams.

[Raine]

28. Well done

you did good! :applause:

[proud patriot]

30. Well done !

It's those who observed you and he that you touched . It's an important thing.
I thank you and know how intimidating it can be to confront people such as you did.

:patriot:

[malaise]

31. Very cool

K & R :fistbump:

[Fire1]

32. Good job! It does give a glimmer of hope. n/t