Lawrence's take on this is very disturbing.

[dkf]

I hope he is wrong.

He says Obama did it all for stagecraft. That he made it look like he was reasonable, but manipulated it so that the Repubs wouldn't take it.

So he makes it look like he was ready to give in on cuts in entitlements without having to pay a political price for actually doing it.

Ugh the thought is nauseating.

[emulatorloo]

1. He did box the Republicans into a corner.

There is pretty much no way the teabag house would vote for a tax increase.

Was it 100% stagecraft? Probably not. But he did come off as the most reasonable adult in the room. Boehner/Cantor? Children protecting their Rich Daddy at the expense of everybody else.

[SusanaMontana41]

55. The adult in the room isn't supposed to award victories to children who throw tantrums.

Appeasing hostage-takers isn't reasonable. It just encourages more hostage taking.

My $.02.

[bluethruandthru]

70. agreed! n/t

[Fumesucker]

2. We have a bunch of people right here on DU who think the same thing..

And a lot of them are not only fine with it, they're ecstatic...

[patrice]

7. Not ecstatic. Realistic. Unless you redesign the ENTIRE thing tomorrow, this IS how it is done.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeSwiss]

81. "...this IS how it is done."

- Until it isn't.....

[Dept of Beer]

68. Personality cults usually are.

:eyes:

[patrice]

75. stereotyping. Not everyone who has something positive to say about Obama

is immersed in a personality cult.

That kind of blatant over-statement undercuts the validity of whatever your position is. If you REALLY cared enough about whatever truth you assume you perceive, you wouldn't damage your case with unfounded insults. Since you do, it is a distinct possibility that truth of some sort is not your primary objective.

[Dept of Beer]

84. I never wrote "everyone."

Just the protected ones. ;)

[patrice]

3. SOP for attorneys. That's how they do what they do. ALL of them. Remember, they are

going up against other attorneys.

Remember? You don't want to know how sausage or legislation is made.

[emulatorloo]

6. Yep

And like it or not, O'Donnell knows how Washington Politics work.

[patrice]

13. My 2nd husband was smart enough for full-boat free ride at Yale, undergrad & law.

Corporate attorney. Fascinating stuff at his level; they prepare real well and then they just ball it out. Lots of money involved.

He had a very messed up stomach.

[patrice]

22. BTW, they're ALWAYS extremely polite to one another. It's their culture.

[kath]

38. Uh, he was smart enough to get into Yale, which is impressive. BUT - the Ivy schools do not give

ANY sort of merit-based aid or scholarship, at least at the undergraduate level. All money given to undergrads is based strictly on financial NEED.

I say this not to belittle your husband's smarts in any way - it's very impressive to get into Yale. But I know a lot about college financial aid, and there is a LOT of misinformation out there. A lot of people think that if their kid has top test scores and high class rank, s/he will be albe to get a "full ride" to all sorts of schools. NOT true at the top schools, unless the parents' income is fairly low.
Just doing my small bit to dispel some of the mythology surrounding college admissions and financial aid...

[patrice]

44. I'll have to admit not knowing very much about it. He was an NMSQT finalist & very poor.

And all of that was way before my time in his life.

[kath]

63. It's great that he was able to get aid that enabled him to attend such a great school.

PSA: For those of you with high schoolers - start checking now about the details of financial aid and college admissions. A lot of people believe a lot of very wrong things about the whole process, and have a very rude awakening.

[patrice]

65. Thanks for the PSA! & . . .

Everyone should have opportunities to make a living at something they love!

Yes, it was a very good thing. He LOVED being an attorney.

He's gone now and I miss him.

[kath]

72. ..

:hug:
sorry to hear that.

[patrice]

74. Thanks, he was a good guy. And a great conversationalist . . .

kind of unusual, that trait, in men anymore.

[KittyWampus]

4. Politics is not for the faint of heart. Especially when your opponent is ruthless.

[readmoreoften]

8. Yeah, what really sucks is losing every time and having to cover it up with speeches.

That's definitely not for the faint of heart.

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. Well, unfortunately, senior citizens tend to have weak hearts because they're OLD. He put them

through this for naught...if LO is correct. Either way, what he did was bad. HE, Obama, put those programs on the table, not the repukes. If he did it for political points, it's bad because he worried millions of seniors needlessly and if he did it because he really does want to cut the programs, it's bad because it destroys what's left of the Democratic Party. LOSE/LOSE.

[KittyWampus]

51. HE didn't put them through this- Republicans did. And it wasn't for "naught".

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. Excuse me? OBAMA is the one who put SS, Medicare and Medicaid on the table. NOT the repukes. n/t

[ohheckyeah]

85. My 84 year old father who

loves Obama turned off the tv today during his speech when he said he offered the Republicans more than they asked for. My dad was livid! I have no doubt he will still vote for Obama but he is very unhappy with Obama right now. My dad isn't in the best of health and I know he was really worried about my mom having enough when he passes away.

[woo me with science]

57. Bullshit. Getting up there and spewing Republican framing of the economy for weeks is NOT helpful

in any way, shape, or form.

He has validated every single Republican lie about our economy and what needs to happen to fix it, and the poison of that will infect our national discourse and the options available to us for the foreseeable future.

We needed a Democrat President to stand up for principles and policies that will actually work. We needed a Democratic President to LEAD, not more public mouthing of the lies perpetrated by the shills for Wall Street.

This is not over, and we are in a shitty position for his having done this. It is not over by a long shot.

[KittyWampus]

60. He exposed the Lie that Republicans care about cutting deficits. That's a huge win.

[patrice]

76. There are many, many people who have not already made up their minds, as you so clearly

already have, and they know a lot less than you do about any of it. If he did as you demand, they'd be experiencing tax increases and some adaptations to Medicare Reform, with NO knowledge of the why or how those things came about. "... spewing Republican framing ..." may have been an insult to you, but for millions of other people it was an education. It gave them a basis of comparison that they need in order to respect their rights as human beings to the opportunity to make informed rational choices and, yes, that does even include choices with which we differ and that's called Democracy.

[readmoreoften]

5. Of course he did it for stagecraft. The question is for whom? Bankers, workers, or himself.

[emulatorloo]

11. Teaparty House Reps are "true beleivers". They would never pass a plan with tax hikes

[patrice]

47. Howard Dean said that the herd that come in last year doesn't appear to know some

important stuff, such as what revenues are as compared to just taxes.

[flamingdem]

79. And the more the Democrats can EXPOSE THIS TO THE PUBLIC the better off we are nt

[patrice]

19. That's why he's in the power position. No one knows. Attorneys involved in negotiations LIKE that

position.

[flamingdem]

77. Maybe because there is NO OTHER CHOICE when you're dealing with FREAKING CRAZY MORAN ASSHOLES

just sayin'

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Here is what is truly hideous:

that is actually the most generous explanation for what is going on that I can think of.

[emulatorloo]

15. "Hideous"?

You believe this rises to the level of Hideous?

I reserve that for things like racism, etc. Not commentary by a guy who actually does know how politics works.

But knock yourself out.

[JI7]

12. Why is that disturbing ?

[dkf]

14. He is pulling my chain that is why.

And the rest of the people in this country.

God do I have to believe Boehner on this then? He says negotiating with the White House is like negotiating with a bowl of jello. Is it Obama who is pulling the football away from Charlie Boehner?

[emulatorloo]

18. This has been LO's take on it all along. Week after week

Like it or not, LO knows from experience how Washington politics works.

I am not onboard with 100% stage craft, but I do agree that Obama was setting himself up as the Reasonable One, and the Republicans as the Unreasonable Ones. Not hard to do, because the Republicans are unreasonalbe.

[dkf]

28. Well yes. We all know that.

That's a given.

But I think Obama undercut himself with the "reasonable man" role if he deliberately moved away to force failure. He played poker with his goal as failure. Really he would be much better off if Lawrence shuts up. His "reasonable man" is turning into "manipulative man". That's not sincere at all.

[KittyWampus]

29. We all know that? Only on DU. Most of American is listening to FOX News

or whatever.

Hopefully, this all got their attention.

[grantcart]

86. Well you should pay more attention to LO and then your chain won't be

so easily pulled.

When repeated "Nothing is agreed upon until everything is agreed upon" about 50 times and people still didn't get it.

The really unbelievable thing is that he laid it out in detail and the Republicans still walked right into it.

Pretty astonishing really.

[still_one]

16. O'Donnell is flat out wrong. The Boweles/Simpson group was not appointed for show. /nt

[CakeGrrl]

17. How ELSE do you think you can "deal" with the jackasses he has to deal with?

I think he's doing what NEEDS to be done.

It should be clear that they are incapable of doing the decent, reasonable thing, whatever their reasons.

He's doing what I think will take some people a long time to see as the way to expose them for what they really are without being held hostage to their treasonous behavior.

[patrice]

33. That's right. A lot of it IS about revealing/exposing stuff that you may not be sure is there & that

you need others to know, i.e. education/learning.

[abelenkpe]

20. Lawrence is wrong

Repubs just don't want to negotiate even when dems are giving them everything they asked for. Repubs want the economy to tank. They think it will help them in the next election

[nobodyspecial]

21. Oh noes!

Obama is a politician? Say it ain't so.

He manipulated and owned the GOP. What is the problem?

[undeterred]

23. I just don't have the 'constitution' for this kind of stuff.

I don't know what is real and what is a charade any more.

[Parker CA]

24. Van Hollen basically just told him he's wrong and that this is what it is. Not stagecraft and that

Obama would've been willing to make the tough decisions.

[dkf]

30. Well of course he had to say that.

Does anyone like finding out they are being played with? He is freaking people out on all sides.

[Kahuna]

31. What did you expect Van Hollen to say? Yeah, Lawrence, the Prez was

totally bluffing????? :eyes:

[awoke_in_2003]

25. it doesn't take much stagecraft...

to make republicans look unreasonable- they do all the work for you.

[patrice]

Lol! Right on!

:hi:

[awoke_in_2003]

43. ...

:hi: back at ya

[patrice]

27. Re them doing all of the work: my theory is they look the way they do because SOMEBODY over there

in their camp is cornered and in danger of going down real bad, hence a lot of DESPERATE BULLSHIT.

[Fire1]

36. True dat! And they don't even know it!! LOL!!! n/t

[la la]

62. ditto! n/t

[ecstatic]

26. I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt, but you did your part perfectly

as the "enraged" liberal base member who was outraged that Obama was willing to compromise. Obama comes out of this looking reasonable, even though he knew there was never a chance of the cuts going through. He knows how repubs think better than most of us ever could.

[Ruby the Liberal]

32. There is a reason they call it sausage making.

[Fire1]

34. Potus has the 'perfect' temperment for politics. I would have

been in jail by now.

[indurancevile]

35. oh, i bet.

[inna]

39. O'Donnel is a despicable shill/tool, after all - realized it after listening to him for about 10 min

tonight. :shrug: :thumbsdown:

[emulatorloo]

50. Whether you like it or not, LO knows exactly how Washington politics work

[pipi_k]

40. Yeah, and that's politics.

In order to get what you want, you sometimes have to offer up something yourself and then ask for a similar sacrifice in return.

You have to know what your opponent is NOT willing to give up under any circumstances, and then go for it.

It's not for sissies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. Either he a) offered to screw the people. Or, b) was lying.

I think I'll go with a).

[inna]

45. the two are not mutually exclusive; in fact, it is typically both in this particular case.

[cilla4progress]

42. I agree

I generally respect Lawrence's opinion, but this is very cynical. Did you hear Rep. Van Hollen's contrasting view? He feels Obama was genuine.

Are you still listening to Lawrence? This is interesting. Explains a lot...still Lawrence; Kristen Welker, WH correspondent, shedding light on the specific communications. Does indeed sound like Obama was "left at the altar" (by Boehner), but OTOH, Obama pushed for that add'l $400 bil (or mil?) -- 50% in revenues, at the last minute!

At least he put it in the form of a question... :o

[la la]

64. LO is remembering

his days on The West Wing---i sometimes think he gets confused with *real life* politics and what happened on a teevee show! --no real disrespect to o'donnell, but he is cuttingly cynical at times....and Chris Van Hollen tried to set him straight---but LO didn't seem to agree- was very quiet after Van Hollen's appearance...my opinion, at least--and i normally like LO about 2 days out of 5!

[Roselma]

46. Yup...it's stagecraft. Stagecraft to get what he wants - the

raise of the debt ceiling.

Obama called Republican's bluff. They didn't want deficit reduction if it included increased revenues. They thought that they could force the issue of deficit reduction with strictly cuts by attaching it to the debt ceiling. Obama said, "okay...let's talk." He could have kicked and screamed. Instead, he said, "okay...let talk." They say that they want to go big. He says, "okay...let's talk." Suddenly they actually HAVE to talk with him. They have to bring ideas to the table. They have to PROVE that they are sincere about deficit reduction. They can't prove it, because they weren't serious about it. Certainly they weren't serious enough about it to negotiate it in good faith. Now they've got to make sure that they do something, because the debt ceiling needs to be raised AND they were the ones who attached the strings of the deficit to it. The debt ceiling is hung around the Republican's necks. They can't get the deal done, because they refuse to negotiate in good faith allowing for revenues as well as cuts. We're down to the line before we default, and the Republicans won't negotiate. Now the markets and lots of rich people are wanting that debt ceiling raised. They're going to lose lots of money if it doesn't. They're going to put pressure on the Republicans to decouple deficit reduction from the debt ceiling and get that ceiling raised ASAP.

Suddenly Grover Norquist comes out and says that they've got to raise that debt ceiling. AND...Grover Norquist is exceptionally powerful.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/grover-norquist-mcconnell-reid-better-than-default.php?ref=fpb

...and that's how it works out.

It's politics - positioning for 2012. Democrats and Obama are the grownups in the room. And, it just might get the debt ceiling raised without touching SS/Medicare/Medicaid, because McConnell/Reid doesn't touch them.

[emulatorloo]

52. Excellent post n/t

[patrice]

53. Right! They waaaaaaay over-bid their hand . . .

Thanks for the analysis. We should do stuff like that around here more, explain more step by step, so people don't feel like they're just having talking points thrown at them.

:hi:

[Ikonoklast]

58. Should be an OP.

That analysis is spot-on.

[flamingdem]

78. CNN reports that disturbingly BOEHNER didn't respond to Obama's call or proposal, they are SUNK nt

[Joe the Revelator]

48. Some of you are never happy...this is politics...if you don't have the stomach for it, get a new...

Hobby.

[Joe the Revelator]

49. We said we wanted transparent Government. This is what it looks like.

[dkf]

66. Transparent huh?

I think I need the directors cut.

[proud patriot]

54. he's been saying this for awhile ..he's correct IMO

and this my friends IS what politics is . Obama is playing masterfully IMO

[rug]

56. Fair is foul, and foul is fair:

Hover through the fog and filthy air

It's craft but not stagecraft.

[KittyWampus]

69. Quoting Shakespeare. I think I love you.

[rug]

71. "Love is a smoke and is made with the fume of sighs."

Shakespeare slays.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

59. Fuck that! The president was brilliant and played it brilliantly!!! n/t

[johnd83]

67. Stalling for time

I think Obama at the moment is trying to stall for time and protect health care reform and the safety net. The only way the house GOP can force him to change those is the debt ceiling and budgets. If he can get past this debt ceiling and force them to give him until after 2012, there is just one more budget. We just have to hope he is skilled enough at keeping them busy. We as dems need to make sure we don't just watch TV and complain on the Internet next time something like the tea party shows up and make sure we never have a crop of idiots in government like this again.

[peace4ever]

73. thats nuts - he is paying a price for it - talking about things in politics is huge

look at his poll numbers drop.

i thought this guy was a pro?

[AverageJoe90]

80. Actually, it sounds like a good thing to me.

To me, it sounds like Obama really is trying to screw with the Repubs....ya know, sounding like he was going to agree with pay cuts when he really wasn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. So does one get points for pointing the gun at the hostages head and pulling the trigger?

The fact that someone took the bullets out doesn't really mitigate anything.

[JHB]

83. I think that's pasting a happy-face on it...

I'll beleive it was all some brilliant maneuver if he rips their arms off and spends the next few months beating them bloody with it (metaphoically speaking).

Real brilliance would have involved putting them on the defensive from the get-go, not "bipartisanship" and "looking forward, not back" above all else.