Gang Of Six Plan Reduces Social Security Benefits By $1,300 A Year, Cuts Corporate

[cal04]

Gang Of Six Plan Reduces Social Security Benefits By $1,300 A Year, Cuts Corporate Tax Rates
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/07/20/273830/gang-of-six-plan-reduces-social-security-benefits-by-1300-a-year-cuts-corporate-tax-rates/

Yesterday, President Obama all but endorsed the deficit reduction plan outlined by the Gang of Six senators. The plan still faces numerous obstacles — it’s incredibly vague on the details, has critics on both sides of the aisle, and may not even be ready by the Aug. 2 default deadline. Liberal Democrats have pointed out the plan is far from a balanced approach, asking seniors and the working poor to bear the brunt of the pain without asking the wealthy or corporations to sacrifice at all.

Two members of the Gang of Six, Senators Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) and Kent Conrad (D-ND) were positively crowing about the conservative bona fides of their plan yesterday on MSNBC. Because the proposal will actually be scored as a $1.5 trillion tax cut under current law (with the Bush tax cuts set to expire in 2012), they are confident that House Republicans, who have vowed never to vote for a tax increase, will go for it.

Watch it:
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/07/20/273830/gang-of-six-plan-reduces-social-security-benefits-by-1300-a-year-cuts-corporate-tax-rates/

(snip)
The plan also recommends “reforming” Social Security in ways that will even affect current retirees. But not a penny of the money saved will go to deficit reduction, which begs the question — why include Social Security at all? The Gang of Six has said all the changes will go toward securing the long-term financial security of the program, but Social Security is already solvent until 2037 and does not contribute to the deficit.

The cuts in the Gang of Six plan aren’t minor, either. It proposes a chained CPI adjustment to Social Security, which may not be a bad idea when combined with other measures to boost benefits and strengthen the program, but on its own is tantamount to a $1,300 cut each year for recipients over their lifetimes. Strengthen Social Security co-chair and former Obama adviser Nancy Altman has denounced the idea as an overly harsh cut. “The chained-CPI is poor policy, and given that seniors vote in disproportionately high numbers, it is equally poor politics,” she said.

[Dr Fate]

1. We should support whatever Obama does-or does not do.

Or Sarah Palin and the Koch Brothers will get their way!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr Fate]

18. Not me. I agree with everything Obama does- or does not do.

Swing Voters will look at his stated intentions, attempts and "tried to dos"- not his actions and ultimate accomplishments.

[AndyTiedye]

32. So We Got Nixon Instead

Not an improvement!

[Dr Fate]

34. Today's centrists oppose EVERYTHING Nixon ever did.

Especially his ideas on HCR, funding undelcared wars or trading with China.

[madrchsod]

64. nixon is to the left of the republican-neo liberal democrats

[Warren Stupidity]

79. oh noes! you didn't go there!

expect hell fire

[WinkyDink]

21. You know, this joke is just not funny any more.

[Dr Fate]

24. Centrism is not funny, it's about being serious and clear-eyed.

Who ever said that sarcasm had to be funny?

[russspeakeasy]

61. Nobody said you had to be funny, but you could try a little.

[Dr Fate]

86. See post #53- I'm trying hard NOT to fool people, and yet I still am.

I'm doing everything I can to be over-the top enough so people know I'm being sarcastic- and people still think I'm a real "far-centrist."

That says more about centrism than the quality of my humor, perhaps.

I'm not really trying to make people laugh, (but many have) I'm just deconstructing & re-packaging centrist talking points to the point of absurdity. It's not hard.

There REALLY are people on DU who are claiming that FDR was a centrist, for instance. That should be a parody in itself.

[MsPithy]

72. You forgot "Adult."

Making the poor pay more to protect tax cuts for the rich is "Serious," and oh so very, very "Adult."

[Forkboy]

65. You're right, nothing about this is funny.

Yet Fate's quote cuts to the quick of the matter vis a vis some people's attitudes here on DU pretty damn accurately.

And I admit that I kind of just wanted to use the term "vis a vis". ;)

[monmouth]

33. For most that's over $100 per month. NOT DOABLE!!!..n/t

[Dr Fate]

37. Donate what you can- can you at least send , say $33 to the DCCC?

Then make up the rest in 2 more $33 installments?

Shared sacrifice IS DOABLE if you just plan ahaead a little.

[monmouth]

43. Well, I was thinking of dieting so there's my incentive. Thanks Doc..LOL...n/t

[econoclast]

50. Wow! Talk about putting spin on it! 1300 Dollar CUT in SS???

Only in Washington is spending more but not quite so much as you thought you'd spend, defined as a "spending cut".

Throttle back folks and come back in from the window ledge.

The difference between regular CPI and Chained CPI is about 3 tenths of a percentage point per year .... AND Chained CPI is MORE ACCURATE. Regular CPI usually OVERSTATES INFLATION. ( Which means that we have been overpaying COLA's for years, by the way. )

SO, if enacted, using Chained CPI to calculate COLA's doesn't CUT anybody's benefits. If there is inflation, there will be a COLA and beneficiaries will receive more benefits next year than this year. But, that benefit INCREASE will more accurately reflect inflation and will be less than the COLA increase would have been using regular CPI.

So no one is getting their benefits CUT. And to get the 1300 dollar figure .... suppose you started getting SS when you turn 65 and that year the Chained CPI COLA went into effect ... and you live to be 95. Thirty years out ... when you are 95 .... your annual benefit received including all the Chained CPI COLA's would be 1300 dollars less than it would have been using regular CPI to calculate COLAs.

[thelordofhell]

55. No rich person is getting their taxes raised

They're just letting the temporary bush tax vacation expire

[Shandris]

63. ...you can't POSSIBLY be serious...

You say the CPI is OVERSTATED. Let me repeat that. You say the CPI is OVERSTATED. That we get TOO MUCH from it.

My fucking light bill has gone up more than my increase in the last 3 years without changing a single thing, AND going to energy-efficient lightbulbs. The quality of food I can buy has gone up in price by a stupid amount, forcing me to less and less quality of nutritious food. The cost of EVERYTHING has gone up by MUCH MORE than the miniscule amount of 'increase' I got. Even the goddamn medicare premium has outstripped the increase in the CPI...and you think its OVERSTATED?!?

I have one question for you.

WHAT'S THE WEATHER LIKE IN YOUR REALITY?

Or did you simply overlook that some of the MOST BASIC INDICATORS of inflation are simply IGNORED by the CPI as it stands?

[econoclast]

80. Hey don't blame me. That is the way the math works out

From a 2010 paper published by the bureau of labor statistics "the analyses in this paper confirms, once again, that ...Lowe indices like CPI-U overestimate inflation compared to a true cost-of-living index."

You can look it up. (warning .... Heavy math)

[lark]

67. Are you being sarcastic

or are you just a heavy O kool-aid drinker?

:shrug:

[Dr Fate]

87. Read the rest of my posts in this thread and tell me what you think.

I thought my parody was over-the top enough so that people would know. Some caught it.

Lois Armstrong is a cenrist b/c he smokes tobacco? Socialism "used to be Centrist?" We should agree with everything Obama "does and does not do?"

LOL!

I guess it's so close to what centrists really say that it's hard to tell. I'd say that is a bad on them, not a bad on me.

Do I really need to put red-drippy sarcasm thingies up? Seems like it ruins the effect if I do that. Plus I'm lazy.

[indepat]

70. Yeah, BHO's plan will kill us a little more slowly so we gotta' support that for the

mean-ole Republicans would kill us even a little quicker. :thumbsup: :patriot:

[hedgehog]

2. What were they thinking?

[HereSince1628]

5. They are certain that the people have no alternative

and no way to meaningfully resist policies that do not have the consent of a majority of the governed.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Nothing to worry about here.

1) No deal has been made
2) This is the best Obama could do, given the mood of the country & the need to keep the moderate independent vote
3) The problem with you progressives is that you don't understand reality, and besides, you got noplace else to go.
4) Tough shit. We're only giving out ponies to the people who can afford their upkeep.
5) You want President Palin? (Thanks to Incitatus)

OK, what did I miss?

[damntexdem]

8. The trouble with you Obamabots is that you don't understand the reality of most people.

Any politicians who participate in this atrocity should be stripped of office.

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. I think that poster was only conveying what the Obamabots will say, what they always say

in support of Obama's corporate agenda/policies. :shrug:

[Incitatus]

10. You forgot

Shut up and take it because a real Republican in the WH will be worse.

around the drain we go

[Jackpine Radical]

23. You're right. I added it with credit to you.

[Dept of Beer]

17. + 1000000

[still_one]

4. This is a gift to the republicans, because it sure isn't for the regular person's benefit /nt

[Brickbat]

7. Let's not be hasty here. It's not like it has passed, or anything. And besides, it's not like Obama

has said he's in love with it or anything.

[damntexdem]

9. Hey, I'll love it if we somehow avoid this catastrophe.

But I don't give that possibility much chance.

[Brickbat]

15. Yeah, me neither. I don't know why people saying "he hasn't said he loves it!" is supposed to be

reassuring. He should be laughing this out of his office and treating it with all the contempt it deserves. The fact that he isn't is telling.

[originalpckelly]

11. There is actually not a bad word bad enough to call these people now.

It has come to the point, where I, OPCKELLY cannot actually cuss, because there are no words bad enough to express my disgust.

[Ichingcarpenter]

12. They need to get on the Obama Express: who said the gang of 6 was on the right track

The left track goes to FDR country, the Right track goes to Reaganland.

[originalpckelly]

14. Burn.

:rofl:

So true.

[SammyWinstonJack]

16. Ah yes Reagan who Obama admires.

:puke:

[WinkyDink]

22. And he does NOT admire FDR.

[Dr Fate]

27. He admires FDR's pragmatic centrism, not his outdated socialism.

Socialism was fine back in then, when it was centrist. Now it is too far left.

This explains why we should have supported then but why we must not suport it now.

Obama should be inspired by the examples of FDR's centrist pragmatism, not his socialism (which used to be centrist).

[Ichingcarpenter]

29. 'outdated socialism'.

I think your and Obama's 19th century capitalistic overtures are outdated too.

[Dr Fate]

30. Socialism may have been a good idea back when it was centrist.

Think of centrism as a living, breathing, organic movement.



FDR's old time centrism is like that old friend from high school who never grew up- Obama is moving us into a new era of centrism- time to leave the things we knew as a child behind.

[Ichingcarpenter]

35. Garbage in Garbage out....

Think of centrism as a living, breathing, organic movement. ............. LOL!

You always amuse me with your avatar.

[Dr Fate]

38. Louis Armstrong was a centrist.

We was just smoking harmless tobacco the whole time.

[Ichingcarpenter]

41. your flawless logic escapes me as it does the bell curve.

'Confusion now hath made his masterpiece!'
MacBeth


'The world has been made by fools that wise men should live in it! '

Oscar Wilde

I really hope you extrapolate on your FDR socialist thing

We need a good laugh.

[Dr Fate]

42. Gather 'round me people, and I'll tell you a tale 'bout how FDR was really a centrist!

I'm thinking of writing a Woody Guthrie (who was also centrist, for his time) style ode to FDR's (and Obama's) centrism.

Should it be a talkin blues number or a something based on a Scottish death ballad?

[Ichingcarpenter]

45. 'this land is their land, not your land '

'From the Bank of California
to New York's Wall Street
From the Private Forests to the BP Gulf Stream waters
This land was made for them and not you'



Lyrics by Ichingcarpenter.

There.... am I a centralist now?

[Dr Fate]

48. "...This land is private prop-er-teeee."

;)

[Ichingcarpenter]

49. That's an illusion

Life and possessions are illusionary.
But keep it up.... DU is listening.

[Raksha]

62. Yeah..."a living, breathing, organic movement" that has been moving

steadily to the RIGHT for the past 30 years or so. When does it stop? Gimme that old-time "socialistic" centrism, thank you very much!

[merbex]

51. Definitely outdated

but so chic with the Wall St crowd that Obama aspires to join

[Ichingcarpenter]

53. But the 'other' thinks its right

He was not sardonic or ironic.

I've seen too much of the writing.

[merbex]

56. I see their posts and i just smile when I think how much s**t they will

have to take when they phone bank in an empty phone bank area set up by OFA and all the hangups, yelling, and invective they will have to listen to by righteous citizens when those citizens realize what a THIEF the current occupant in the White House is to expect those with practically nothing to pay more out of their SS checks.

Their ears will blister and I will smile.

They should have to hear what a trojan horse this a**h*** has turned out to be.

[Dr Fate]

85. Anyone who claims that socialism is centrist could not possibly be using sarcasm.

Errr, wait...

[fascisthunter]

73. lol... fascism is in now

[whathehell]

81. Whatever is "au courant", right?...It's just that Nazis were once "modern" too.

[DrToast]

19. In the interest of accuracy, it does NOT cut corporate taxes

The corporate tax rate adjustments are revenue neutral.

[WinkyDink]

20. That is the equivalent of an entire month of NO MONEY.

[Bryn]

25. 1,300 per year from SS/SSDI? Screw it! That's thief!

x(

[RebelOne]

46. I am a SS recipient. If this goes through, Obama has lost my vote in 2012. n/t

[onenote]

60. I'm not saying that it won't have an impact, but the $1300 figure refers to 30 years from now

The estimate of a $1300 "cut" in benefits is a refernce to the estimated difference in the amount that someone who is 65 today would be getting under the chained CPI when they are 95 (i.e., 30 years from now) compared to what they would get under the current COLA methodology. Ten years from now the difference would be around $600/year for someone who is 65 today. All of these dollar figures, of course, are largely guesswork since its impossible to know exactly what the rate of inflation rate will be over the next ten, twenty or thirty years and therefore impossible to reliably assign a dollar figure to the difference.

[RebelOne]

76. OK, 30 years is fine because I will not be around by then.

But still, if Obama agrees to this he will still lose my vote in 2010.

[onenote]

78. You're going to time travel?

[QC]

26. It just gets more hopetastic by the minute, doesn't it? n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

28. Hit the phones, people -

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, DNC head
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

White House
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: [phone]

Harry Reid
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

John Boehner
Washington, DC 20515
[phone]
[phone] fax

Eric Cantor
P: 202.225-2815
F: 202.225-0011

Mitch McConnell
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Nancy Pelosi
Phone: [phone]

On edit:

Here is the Gang of Six to add to the mix:

Tom Coburn
Main: 202-224-5754
Fax: [phone]

Mike Crapo
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Kent Conrad
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Saxby Chambliss
Main: 202-224-3521

Mark Warner
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Dick Durbin
[phone] - phone
[phone] - fax

[Jefferson23]

31. Schmucks, the lot of them. How they sleep at night, I don't know. n/t

[anarch]

40. they sleep at night in incredibly comfortable, luxurious, and expensive beds

under super-comfortable and also expensive sheets and comforters.

[Jefferson23]

44. I'm sure you're correct, schmucks are capable of such feats.

Thanks for reminding me.

[Cherchez la Femme]

82. And don't forget the

Central Air conditioning in these hotter-than-ever summers,

and keeping toasty warm in the winters
--preferably from "Safe", Home-Groan Fracked Natural Gas! If not gas, then electric generated by Clean Coal or (again, ALWAYS) "Safe" Nukular. Pres O said himself how technologically advanced both nukular *and* deep-water oil drilling now is!

And nary a solar panel to be found on our Leaders houses, they're leading the way, all the way up to the White House! Saint Ronnie permanently took those unsightly hippie panels down off the White House (I wonder what he would say about this Presidents, ahem, heritage? Oh, I'm sure it would be good!) when he turned this country back to God-fearin' and away from that Socialist Carter, and his nefarious Marxist plans;
yes he did, Praise Ron & Praise Jeebus!

And don't see why the so-called "elderly" or "the poor" can't afford to pay their utilities!
All they want is Gubmint Handouts, and to see the doctor when they're sick; the damm leeches! They should feel grateful for what they get, and grateful for what's NOT cut!
I'm getting the message that our pragmatic government wants these whining "Oh! I'm old!" layabouts to pull themselves up by their own lazy bootstraps -- GET A JOB, FREELOADERS!
Those Socialists just want to take money out of the rightful owners pockets!
If Wal-Mart or McDonalds isn't hiring, they can always go pick fruit and cotton for pennies on the pound, or work in a slaughterhouse on their feet all day for minimum wage.
There's plenty of work out there for people that WANT to work!


Yessirree, I'm sure glad there's a Democrat in the White House! NOW we're seeing some action!
--it's not exactly the action we expected or even were promised, but then we're too stupid to play 11-dimension chess while rope-a-doping those Republicans and their alien politics, so we deserve to be called
and probably are
retards and drug addicts! It's a GOOD thing to bail Too-Big-To-Fail(Permanently) Corporations out while the greedy homeowners deserve to be foreclosed upon.
Yes, it's a GOOD thing to prop the Confidence Fairy up, 'cause she creates jobs with our tax dollars
if we clap loud enough and believe!
It's a GOOD thing to give the wealthy yet more tax breaks because trickle down works, dammit! All the smart economists say so, to this very day! And you wouldn't want to make them mad -- why, they'd go Galt, whatever that means (but I do think the end result is we the citizens would be totally lost, clueless and life as we know it woudl STOP without our Captains of Industry!)


And it's a GOOD THING to make darn sure the rest of us "Share" the sacrifice!


We made our OWN Committees and Think Tanks-- we sure showed them!


Yeppers, it's a GOOD LIFE!

[RC]

36. Reduces Social Security Benefits By $1,300 A Year,

That equals $108 a month. That's almost half my food bill. And they have the gall to cut corporate taxes even more?

We need to start collecting suitable tree branches, diesel fuel and all those clothes the thrift stores throw away for torches. Ropes and pitch forks welcome.

[Kaleva]

89. x.xx + 0 still equals x.xx

[FourScore]

39. I feel sick. n/t

[onenote]

47. to be more precise, it would reduce the amount of COLA increase

by around $600 per year ten years from now and by somewhere between $1000 and $1300 20 years from now. Thus, it is not accurate to say it would be "tantamount to a $1300 cut each for recipients over their lifetimes." Moreover, of course, the amounts cited are somewhat speculative since no one can be certain what inflation will be like over the next 20 years.
I'm not saying its a good idea or a bad idea. Just trying to offer a bit of clarification.

[hugo_from_TN]

58. I think the chained CPI is a good idea.

Heresy to say here, but if implemented correctly (a big IF), it will be more accurate than the current method. If that is the case, it is not a cut of SS benefits, it reduces future cost of living increases to a more realistic and accurate level. Thus the benefits to recipients adjusted for cost of living will be the same over time.

[econoclast]

52. Spending more ...but not as much as we thought we would ... is a spending cut?

Only in Washington is spending more but not quite so much as you thought you'd spend, defined as a "spending cut".

This is the Billy Mays "The more you spend the more you save!!!!" school of accounting.

Throttle back folks and come back in from the window ledge.

The difference between regular CPI and Chained CPI is about 3 tenths of a percentage point per year .... AND Chained CPI is MORE ACCURATE. Regular CPI usually OVERSTATES INFLATION. ( Which means that we have been overpaying COLA's for years, by the way. )

SO, if enacted, using Chained CPI to calculate COLA's doesn't CUT anybody's benefits. If there is inflation, there will be a COLA and beneficiaries will receive more benefits next year than this year. But, that benefit INCREASE will more accurately reflect inflation and will be less than the COLA increase would have been using regular CPI.

So no one is getting their benefits CUT. And to get the 1300 dollar figure .... suppose you started getting SS when you turn 65 and that year the Chained CPI COLA went into effect ... and you live to be 95. Thirty years out ... when you are 95 .... your annual benefit received including all the Chained CPI COLA's would be 1300 dollars less than it would have been using regular CPI to calculate COLAs.

[slipslidingaway]

54. PLEASE see the links in the articles ...

http://www.strengthensocialsecurity.org/colacut

"...It cuts benefits more with every passing year. After 10 years, your benefits would be cut by about $500 a year for the average retiree. After 20 years, your benefits would be cut by about $1,000 a year..."

After 30 years $1392 - see the chart and notes at the above link.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/01/social-security-advocates_n_888899.html

"...Lawmakers and the Obama administration are reportedly considering switching to a "chained" Consumer Price Index. According to the advocacy group Strengthen Social Security, the chained-CPI could lead to annual Social Security benefit cuts of $560 for those aged 75, $984 for those aged 85 and $1,392 for those aged 95...

Social Security advocates say the measure is an inaccurate and unfair way to calculate costs for seniors. A recent report by the Economic Policy Institute, a progressive Washington think tank, states that the chained-CPI is "inappropriate for calculating Social Security COLAs consumption patterns of Social Security recipients differ from those of the general population." The report goes on to note that "the 65-and-older population spends two to three times more on health care than does the general population, and prices for health care are rising much faster than inflation."

[onenote]

59. to further clarify

when it talks of cuts of $560 for those aged 75, it means that someone who is 65 today would get,in theory, $560 less per year ten years from now when they are 75. Similarly, someone who is 95 today wouldn't see a cut of $1392 -- the reference is to someone who is 65 today and the amount by which their benefits would be less than would otherwise be the case 30 years from now when they are 95.

[slipslidingaway]

69. Thanks! n/t

[TheKentuckian]

75. No fucking shit. It is an erosion of buying power that over time makes the program a nothingburger

Yeah, it is a fucking reduction in benefits.

[slipslidingaway]

57. Unrec for a misleading title on Think Progress. nt

[madrchsod]

66. fucking political theater.....what a waste of time.

[on point]

68. Simply NOT ACCEPTABLE!! Here is what we want

Eliminate Bush tax cuts for the wealthy - 100 Billion / yr
Eliminate Corp and Oil tax breaks - 100 B/yr
Reduce military spending at least 400 b/ yr

That is 6 trillion over 10 years.

Start there before even thinking about any cuts to the budget.

Want more??

Drop star wars program - 10 b/y
Stop Israel support - 5 b/yr
Drop agribusiness support - 50 b /yr
Drop Nuclear Energy research (except how to dispose of the poisons!) - 40 b /r

Hey what do you know, another trillion over 10 years.

[Overseas]

71. That's a lot of money. Too much. Yet minutes of income for the Top 2%.

[fascisthunter]

74. K&R (nt)

[Yon_Yonson]

77. It's time to make these 6 to face the punishment stock

[FogerRox]

83. Tax breaks for the rich and corporations, tax increase for the other 80% of us.

Tough I have a little problem with Think Progress saying SS will go broke in in 2037, the actual intermediate cost scenario in the 2011 Trustees report says 2036, while the stohastic model says 2055, and the low cost scenario says 2085. Basically of we see widespread job creation over the next 10 to 15 years, and real wage growth, it then is more than possible that SS will never go broke thru 2085.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1526144

KnR

[aj_cd]

84. I have had enough!!!!

I have had enough of this debate in Washington,on the news and here.
There is an old saying;
Breakfast; the chicken is involved, the pig is committed.
The cuts to SS and Medicare; Most are involved. I am committed.
I have to have meds every month or I die. period.
I have to have meds every month or I start looking for hospice.
I have to have meds every month or I have to figure out how to say goodbye to my children
I have to have meds every month or I have to tell my grands that I will see none of them grow up.

You can all debate back and forth and get off line and think I guess I made my point. If me living vs being loyal Dem at any cost is up for debate here please tell me where do I go?
Every point someone makes that does not first demand we put the elderly and disabled and poor first is the argument that my life is expendable for the greater good.

Okay, Back to your debate.
But one thing, please give me plenty of warning before you decide keeping me alive is too expensive financially or politically. I would like time to say goodbye.
Thank you.

[Blue_In_AK]

88. I also read this morning that the, quote, plan

would remove the home mortgage deduction, the medical deduction and the charity deduction, which pretty well does away with everything that this household claims. Do they plan to lower my tax bracket? I doubt it. I'm not rich.

Add to that a reduction in social security benefits, and we're going to be really feeling it.

[swilton]

90. The elimination of the mortgage deduction on taxes -

which I'm sure I don't have to tell you is a major incentive for home ownership - was in the original plan. I'm right there with you Blue - elimination of this deduction as well as cuts in SS and Medicare will pretty much wipe me out. But the broader picture is that it would be a disincentive for home ownership - not necessarily a boon to the economy.

When I saw this video clip of Chambliss and Conrad, I thought that they were waffling and deliberately vague....I don't think anyone really knows what's in the bill - and given the way that the Patriot Act was rammed through, it's anyone's guess...When I heard the Chambliss/Conrad discussion, the first thing that came to mind was 'Voodoo Economics' - they have no clue what hell they are unleashing.

As for the Democratic Party - maybe this is too blunt for DU - but to think that these Democrats (collectively from bottom all the way to POTUS) could run again for re-election and claim to be better than the Republicans let alone to ask their fellow citizens to vote for them and expect a good deal is truly laughable.

[Blue_In_AK]

92. I'm almost to the point of saying let the pubs have it all

and then see if people will wake up finally. It's not just Democratic homeowners, retirees, etc., that are going to be hurt by these cuts. Maybe if enough ordinary Republican voters see what their chosen elected officials are really all about, they'll realize they've been "had."

[YellowRubberDuckie]

91. Coburn bet a Porterhouse steak that Obama was gonna sign it...

He said, "I'll take that Oklahoma Steak."
He said he will not sign it. Their plan only takes care of like 2 trillion over several years. WTF? We have to worry about 14! Idiots.
Duckie