Can you believe they let children buy this?

[Ohio Joe]

A Clockwork Orange

Murder, rape, torture... and any kid can buy the book anywhere it's sold! They can even get a copy of the movie they made from this garbage! Who knows what horrors this will cause the children to commit...

oh wait... We've been through this before, it's just a new medium thats going to get some crap made on it and we still don't need to save the children from it.

sheesh.

[onehandle]

1. A Clockwork Orange can lead to wearing false eyelashes and Beethoven.

The horror.

[Rex]

2. If you have cable tv and the Chiller channel, kids can watch things

far far worse then A Clockwork Orange. How bout the new Duke Nukem game? Kids get to blow away crying/pleading women...in the head.

[Ohio Joe]

3. crying/pleadeing, about to explode from the alien inside them women

At least be complete.

[Rex]

4. Well hell! Didn't know that, kill em all and let God sort it out!

Maybe he can just stomp kill them and save ammo. :sarcasm:

[Ohio Joe]

9. Perhaps you would rather ban them?

So much easier then to get rid of them then be offended?

[Rex]

11. No, I would think a rational adult would find a way to keep their youngins

away from such trash. Offended? Wow are you way off base...

[REP]

5. Ever READ 'A Clockwork Orange?

As much as I like Kubrick, the film does not do the book justice; all style and little substance.

Anyway, the Burgess work makes the video game look sedate.

[Rex]

12. I wasn't really referring to the game...ever watch cable tv channel Chiller?

It makes ACO look lame and tame by comparison.

[REP]

19. Yes. And I've read and understood Burgess's book; perhaps you did not

[Rex]

24. Perhaps, maybe you are talking about something of no relevance.

At least it seems that way.

[WCGreen]

84. What's worse than ruining Singing in the Rain...

[KittyWampus]

6. there's an actual story and commentary in A Clockwork Orange. And reading it involves using ones

imagination. Watching the movie less so.

[Ohio Joe]

8. So that negates the murder, rape and torture

They are fine if there is a commentary to go along with it?

[KittyWampus]

16. They serve a larger purpose in the story and lead the reader to THINK about violence in society.

[Ohio Joe]

26. So that makes them ok?

Murder, rape and torture are ok if you think about them?

[Exultant Democracy]

49. The violence in video games is the artist commentary on violence in society, that dog doesn't hunt.

[KittyWampus]

52. LOL! sure it is. And you read Hustler for the articles, right?

[Exultant Democracy]

55. Sorry but my statement is is a truism, any depiction of violence by and artist is by definition

that particular artist commentary on violence in society. That is unless you are going to argue that the people who design video games are not artist, which is absurd, or that they are not members of our society, which is even more absurd.

Video games are just another form of storytelling, higher tech sure but even in Homer you had rape, murder, desecration of bodies, torture, cannibalism, babies heads getting smashed against walls and so on.

[Goblinmonger]

67. Kubrick does an excellent job of making you think the same thing

in the film. Granted, far less time to develop it, but the satire, imho, carries through.

[JoePhilly]

7. Change "A Clockwork Orange" to "The Bible" ... and it still works.

[REP]

17. Pretty much. Consider the story of the Levite's Concubine (Judges 19) - far worse than DNF

[Maine-ah]

10. jesus, I saw that as a kid

I think I was about 12 years old.

[Rex]

14. Yeah same here...and of course you and I grew up to be serial killers...

NOT.

[KittyWampus]

22. There is a vast difference between reading a book and habitually playing a video game.

Furthermore, habitually playing violent video games doesn't necessarily have to manifest in your environment as you committing a violent crime.

Violence can manifest in your environment in many different ways.

[Rex]

27. Just any book?

I know I was being sarcastic and really didn't think I needed to add the emoticon. I see I was wrong.

[JonLP24]

29. So what am I doing

as well as the OP that's contributing to violent environment? I play these games, I know the OP reviews these games(wish I had a star to post in the gaming group again). What are we doing to contribute to a violent environment?

[KittyWampus]

41. Be the change you want to see in the world- Ghandi. Don't want violence? Then don't engage in it.

And saying "it's only a game" is a rationalization for hypocrisy.

If you want Peace in the world, then do everything you can in your own life and environment to foster it.

[JonLP24]

43. I don't think that answers my question

on how violence is manifesting from my choice to play video games. I don't support the wars including what we're doing in Libya. Not the type to get into fights. Even when I get into arguments I'm very careful to not resort to personal attacks(which many people fail to do). I don't believe if I stopped playing the violent kind of video games there will be less wars. I don't see the hypocrisy when one is fiction and the other is real life(where I'm non-violent).

[KittyWampus]

45. Your subconscious does not distinguish between fiction and real life. That is a fact.

It responds to stimulus. And stimuli that is most habitual gets a stronger response.

Playing violent video games simply adds more force to the violent atmosphere we all live in as a society.

If you can't grasp the hypocrisy of saying you want Peace but spend regular amounts of time each week engaging in violent play, then perhaps a bit more introspection is due.

[JonLP24]

50. I'm sorry that is hard to swallow

I would have to ignore every way I'm not violent to believe that. However, it's been a few weeks since I played a violent game. Lately I've been play MLB 11:The Show so my subconscious probably thinks I'm a hell of a pitcher(lower than 3 ERA and over 7 k/9(which admittedly could be higher) and a below average batter(my team leads the league in strikeouts).

[KittyWampus]

53. If we lived near one another, I'd suggest a game of softball. Wouldn't that be great!

A DU game of softball.

[JonLP24]

56. That does sound great

I was pretty good at sports such as football and basketball but when it came to whacking ball sports my hand-eye-coordination just isn't there. I embarrassed myself badly playing tennis one time in PE. It isn't so embarrassing to miss the ball in baseball or softball because a bat is much thinner than a racket. I can play outfield pretty well though.

[Ohio Joe]

31. "reading" "habitually"

Interesting you make one a casual pastime and the other a nasty habit.

[KittyWampus]

42. Reading A Clockwork Orange once vs. habitually playing a video game.

See the differences?

Reading the book A Clockwork Orange engages ones own imagination. It involves a larger message/meaning with social commentary. It fosters thinking about those issues.

Playing a violent video game engages very little of ones own imagination. It engages lower parts of the brain and causes stress and concurrent biological effects. The message it tacitly gives your subconscious, which does not distinguish between "pretend" and "real", ris that violence is fun and to be engaged in habitually.

As I posted elsewhere "Be the change you want to see in the world". If you want Peace then playing violent video games is sending a mixed message to your subconscious. It's hypocritical.It's counter productive.

[JonLP24]

44. So...

If I kill turtles on Super Mario Bros my subconscious can't tell the difference? Should I be kept away from turtles. I also killed some mutant dogs on Fallout, do my dogs need to fear me?

[KittyWampus]

48. Your dogs need to fear people who act on the energy you help multiply

by killing things habitually during playtime.

Society is a whole thing. And we are all connected. Our thoughts and feelings influence one another.

I can't or wouldn't stop someone from buying and playing a violent video game. But I can jolly well say out loud that it has a degrading effect on the Body Politic.

[Ohio Joe]

57. You can also say the moon is made of cheese

That does not make it so.

[Ohio Joe]

46. Then why do we not have an epidemic of violence?

"Playing a violent video game engages very little of ones own imagination. It engages lower parts of the brain and causes stress and concurrent biological effects. The message it tacitly gives your subconscious, which does not distinguish between "pretend" and "real" regarding society is that violence is fun and to be engaged in habitually."

There are zero facts to back this up, saying it does not make it true. The vast majority of studies indicate that violent video games do not make violent children.

In addition, you are incorrect with your assumption that violent video games require no imagination or thought. You should try something like Alpha Centuari, it requires more then a little imagination and great thought, yet... a little nerve stapling of the drones when they riot is still amusing... or perhaps a small nuke to wipe out 20k civilians. It's entertainment, no different then a movie or a book.

And I see you are still framing one activity as a casual one and the other as a nasty habit.

[JonLP24]

47. because violence manifests in other ways

The question has been asked before to her. :)

[KittyWampus]

51. I am sorry that you can't see the violence in society and the world. You apparently only think

of yourself and your actions and thoughts and emotions as existing in a vacuum. A very existentialist and materialist viewpoint.

Violence manifests in society in many ways- not just as violent crime.

Bullying, misogyny, homophobia. And then there's what we do as self-violence such as cutting, bulimia.

And again, if you can't distinguish between reading a piece of literature and habitually playing a video game that involves little more than a few basic stressful biological responses- whatever.

[Ohio Joe]

54. Why do you keep framing it that way?

WTF? Why do you keep framing gaming as a habit? At least keep the shit honest.

So... your violence bullshit is shown wrong so now you are blaming bullying, misogyny, homophobia on gaming... and I suppose you anything that resembles evidence of that?

"And again, if you can't distinguish between reading a piece of literature and habitually playing a video game that involves little more than a few basic stressful biological responses"

Have you ever played a game? You sure as shit talk like you never have.

[JonLP24]

64. The

cutting or self-harm is usually a result from one or more mental illness or disorders. There are a lot of external factors that contribute such as financial stress, divorce, often experiences that led to psychological trauma. It is often used as a coping mechanism. I've read all about it myself, if you read about it I don't believe you'll find a mention of video games anywhere.

The other stuff(misogyny, bullying), I have no clue where it comes from except that it has been around a lot longer than video games.

[Quantess]

13. My favorite movie ever!!!!

[JonLP24]

15. K&R

So much hypocrisy.

[Drale]

18. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

Isn't funny how fast people turn on the first amendment when they find something they don't like? "I've never played a video game but the media says they are bad therefore lets make sure children can't play them!! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!!!!!. BOOOOOM!!! btw that was the sound of my head exploding from all the stupid surrounding the Supreme Court ruling about videos yesterday.

[Quantess]

20. This is a sarcastic OP, or.....?

Please tell me you aren't serious. Good grief, maybe you are.

[Ohio Joe]

28. Can you explain why one medium is ok and another is not?

I would like to hear that.

[Quantess]

35. Crap, I'm lost.

Obviously I wandered into some conversation I have no previous knowledge of.

[Ohio Joe]

37. Sorry

I am throwing out my two cents on the outrage being showed about the recent ruling that it is not a crime to sell mature games to children. Many are horrified that children can buy Duke Nukem Forever... it even appears to me many are outraged that the game is allowed to be sold at all. My point in the OP is that we allow children to buy other types of adult material on other mediums and that is not a crimes, I do not see that it should be for games.

[Quantess]

40. Thanks for clarifying. I'm not particularly concerned with this topic, in general, but

A Clockwork Orange is definitely one of my top 5 favorite films of all time!

[Kaleva]

21. Altough some may argue that the Bible has led to untold suffering...

for generations.

[Motown_Johnny]

23. You know Alex reaps what he had sown in that story, unlike video games

I'm sorry but depicting rape as part of a game seems way out of line.


IMO the games people who have not yet reached 18 (or maybe 17) play should not have them simulating any criminal acts.

There are enough games they can play where they can be soldiers or defend the world from aliens, or even be a cop who catches the thieves, murders and rapists.

There simply isn't any reason to not place any limits on these images and simulated actions until the person nears adulthood.

[Ohio Joe]

30. Rape is not part of the game

Do not buy the hype, you rape no one in the game.

"IMO the games people who have not yet reached 18 (or maybe 17) play should not have them simulating any criminal acts."

What other mediums should they not be allowed access to if there is criminal acts?

[Motown_Johnny]

74. I have issue with the under aged simulating those acts

In video games the player takes an active role in the actions the avatar makes


This is fundamentally different than watching a movie or reading a book

[Ohio Joe]

87. Non-sense

Same as I said down thread. Books and movies can be every bit as alive in the mind as a game, there is no difference.

[JonLP24]

33. If you're talking about Duke

that's the aliens not the playable character. Like the Alien films. If you want an example where the bad guys don't reap what they sow is Texas Chain Massacre with R. Lee Ermey. There are no survivors, the bad guys win.

[Liberal_in_LA]

25. omg

[seabeyond]

32. if it is a shrug of the shoulders, why do we monitor our children at all ohio joe?

are you really suggesting the adult world of entertainment should be accessible to our children and it will have no effect on them? then why do we cry out with the limbaughs and fox news and religion? the war games?

du hypocrisy at its best. when it comes to sex of any kind, no influence ont he children, but anything we dont like, to the point of a rw parent taking kid to a rally, we are up in arms.

[Ohio Joe]

34. No, not at all what I am suggesting

I think parents are exactly the place where monitering children should come from.

I am saying that making it a crime to sell mature rated games to children is simply stupid when everyone is ok with selling mature books and movies to children.

[seabeyond]

36. i monitor and discuss with kids. i think it is the parents job, too. yet, often the suggestion is

that this stuff does not influence or cause harm to children as your post states and others on this thread. that is what i was addressing.

yes

it is the parents job.

[Rex]

38. If parents don't monitor and get involved in their child(s) life

then they don't deserve to be called parents imo.

[seabeyond]

61. agreed. told very young niece when preg. lots of parenting styles, i wont say anything

but if you arent parenting, i will.

[CBGLuthier]

71. Well fuck me, and my wife for not obsessing over our three

Christ the arrogance around here. Some of us parent differently from some of you. Who the holy fuck do YOU think you are saying some people don't deserve to be called parents?

Elitist bullshit.

[Rex]

94. I didn't say obsess over your kids.

Put your stupid words in your own stupid mouth thanks. Sorry if it HURTS that you suck as an adult. I could really care less. :eyes:

[Ohio Joe]

39. Most studies indicate it does not

Yes, there are a handful that say they do but the overwhelming majority say otherwise. The fact is clear that as gaming has increased in popularity, crime has not. With the massive popularity in gaming (more sales then movies), if it was having an effect, it would be epidemic and... There is no epidemic... Not even a summer cold.

I am glad we agree it should not be a crime to sell games.

[seabeyond]

62. it can be an effect of numbing to sensitivity, lack of empathy. i am not going ot gauge

the effect of trash on my children with crime rate.

i saw the different behaviors with children that had no restrictions and lack of parenting. and i knew the kids who parent knew what was up in their life.

to even suggest that there is no effect, i think, is .... naive.

[Ohio Joe]

68. Well...

"i saw the different behaviors with children that had no restrictions and lack of parenting. and i knew the kids who parent knew what was up in their life."

I think the thing here is parenting versus lack of parenting being the problem, not video games. I would suggest you would see the same differences even if there were no games available and I think to blame the result of bad parenting on anything else makes no sense. The problem is parenting, not games.

[seabeyond]

70. i agree only to a point. when children were very young and watched something inappropriate

we were there to discuss with the kids so they can put it in the proper perspective. with lack of parenting, the trash fed to the kids stays in warped form in the mind, without any adjustments, lessons, evolving or progressing.

kids are now teenagers, and we still have that relationship allowing them to be on firm ground. even as teenagers, they are not able to process the adult world in a totally mature fashion.

[Ohio Joe]

76. By the time a kid is 14 or 15 they should understand what a game is

If they don't, there are larger issues going on. A violent video game should have no more impact on them then a violent book or movie.

[seabeyond]

85. by 4 or 5 a kid gets a game. and who said we should disregard what our children read

and watch.

[jtuck004]

69. Do you have a link to the survey that you have done, or that

anyone else that is credible has done, (other than a game designer or manufacturer) which reaches the conclusion that there is no effect? For example, deaths from lung cancer are correlated strongly with cigarette smoking, yet lung cancer deaths are not higher based on where the most sales occur - that doesn't mean cigarettes are safe - and just because we are not seeing bloody battles in the streets doesn't mean that violent games don't have an impact on behavior. To reach the conclusion above ignores lots of other factors...

The APA says that although there are mixed results, the overwhelming evidence shows that watching violent video games leads rather consistently to more aggresive thoughts and actions, (link:www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx|here], so it would be incorrect to say "most studies indicate it does not", at least when talking about credible work . And I would certainly give more weight to the opinion of the APA than someone with a vested interest in selling their manifestation of Soma.

And it is important, because while I agree that parents should be involved in supervising and talking about this, all too often they let the game do the babysitting and shirk their responsibility (I mean, how do you have a serious conversation about Duke Nukem?).

So maybe criminal penalties are appropriate in some cases...

[JonLP24]

72. Like many things

you can probably find studies saying different things. The decision said they failed to prove a link of video games and minors acting more aggressively. I'm not sure what studies they looked at but the issue is this. Video games were given the same first amendment protections such as movies and books largely because there are characters, plot, storyline, music, etc. The also pointed out violence has never been considered obscene and they point to Sunday morning cartoons, Looney Tunes, etc. as violent images that are available for kids. They also pointed to fairy tales and regularly read school books and described the violence in them. Because video games deserve the same first amendment protections such as books or movies all "violent" video game bans failed strict scrutiny in every lower court decision (including the one that made it to the Supreme Court).

Also video games have a very descriptive voluntary ratings system that is enforced at most video game stores. It just isn't a crime like movies, cartoon, etc that have violent images. Motion picture industries are aware of this fact which is why they supported video games in the case because it would have affects on their media.

[Ohio Joe]

75. Sure

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1804959

First one I came across, I did not see any connection to video game companies.

[jtuck004]

89. Psychological studies invariably find a positive relationship between violent

video game play and aggression. However, these studies cannot account for either aggressive
effects of alternative activities video game playing substitutes for or the possible selection of
relatively violent people into playing violent video games. That is, they lack external validity.
We investigate the relationship between the prevalence of violent video games and violent
crimes. Our results are consistent with two opposing effects. First, they support the behavioral
effects as in the psychological studies. Second, they suggest a larger voluntary incapacitation
effect in which playing either violent or non-violent games decrease crimes. Overall, violent
video games lead to decreases in violent crime.

________________________________________________________________________________-

That's the abstract at that link. So they find a relationship between violent video games and aggression, though there may (or may not) be other factors that enter into it.

And it decreases crime because while they are playing violent video games they are not out committing mayhem and murder.

I will sleep better tonight, knowing that DOOM is safeguarding our community ;)


Thank you for the link, btw.

[seabeyond]

90. they use the same argument with rape....

http://www.whale.to/a/reisman5.html

Reducing rape with an eraser

Now Reynolds and Northwestern law professor Anthony D'Amato's, ''Porn up, Rape down'' essay is cited by psychologists and therapists to ridicule the damage done to the wives and children of pornography addicts.

D'Amato says rape is down because ''pornography has become freely available to teenagers and adults.''

If (as the FBI claims) rape declined ''85 percent'' since 1970, dad must continue drooling (and such) over pornographic images of teens, incest, sadism and bestiality.

Tennessee law professor Reynolds, D'Amato and their ilk say ''the sharp rise in access to pornography accounts for the decline in rape.''

* {reality}

U.S. News and World Report (April 24, 2000) said, ''facing political heat to cut crime in the city, investigators in the New York PPD's Sex Crime Unit sat on (thousands of) reports of rapes and other sexual assaults.''

One officer snarled; ''The way crime was solved was with an eraser.''

In 2000 even the FBI admitted that one district ''failed to report between 13,000 and 37,000 major crimes.''

''A 2000 Philadelphia Inquirer report found from 1997-1999, of 300,000 sex crime reports, thousands of rapes got relabeled ''investigation of persons'' or ''investigation, protection, and medical examination'' – non-crime codes.''

''This puts one in four rapes in a non-crime category.''

Lying sure reduces rape!

Other real men confirm additional cover-ups.

[Ohio Joe]

91. In the upper left hand corner you can get the actual study

It does not come up with a direct link to it.

[jtuck004]

92. I had downloaded it, and it does provide more detail as to

how they came up with their data.

Thanks for that

[Luminous Animal]

60. I don't think it is okay to sell mature books and movies to my child. And I'd be fucking

pissed off at anyone who did. Violence, like that in Clockwork Orange has a context and a deeper message and any child who is not old enough to grasp that has no business reading the book or the movie.

[Ohio Joe]

77. Well then...

You should be lobbying for those to be a crime as well.

[zappaman]

58. It should be a crime to sell objectionable video games!

Because of MARIO BROS, I ate some magic mushrooms.
See, my subconscious made my conscious do it!
Don't even ask me what I did after habitually playing DONKEY KONG...

[JonLP24]

59. Did you eat 100 bananas thinking you'd get an extra life?

Did you ride rhinos or swim with swordfish?

[seabeyond]

63. "crime to sell objectionable video games!". has ANYONE suggested this?

because people have issues with a game and calls it out does not mean it is a crime or should be, to sell. people are allowed to have an opinion of a trashy game, and a right to say it is trash, just as you have the right to say.... yeehaw.

[PeaceNikki]

65. Yes, that's what the SCOTUS decision was. CA made it a crime to sell to minors.

[seabeyond]

66. then the poster i addressed should clarify.... to minors. nt

[moondust]

73. Video games are interactive.

Players are not passive viewers observing characters on a screen or in a book but actual participants doing the killing and raping themselves, albeit in an artificial reality.

[Ohio Joe]

78. I think you underestimate the power of books and movies

They can very easily suck one in every bit as much as a game.

[moondust]

79. But the kid is still not an active participant in a book or movie.

Just a bystander or vicarious observer.

[Ohio Joe]

83. Non-sense

When I was in my early teens and reading Lord of the Rings, I was on every step of the journey. Because the participation is in the mind, it is no different.

[moondust]

86. It's different.

To play a video game you have to physically involve yourself in the action by pressing buttons, mouse clicks, moving a mouse around, etc. The trigger does not get pulled unless YOU pull it, unlike a character on the screen or on the page. You'll have to ask a child psychologist what effect that active participation has on a child's psyche.

[Ohio Joe]

88. You need to read some better books - nt

[Shandris]

80. Alright. This has gone on long enough.

I realize this is a reply to a particular poster, but you're only the most recent one to make this mistake. In truth though, its directed at this whole thread.

THERE. IS. NO. PARTICIPANT. DOING. ANY. GODDAMN. RAPING.

Can I say that any bigger? Perhaps in bold.

THERE. IS. NO. PARTICIPANT. DOING. ANY. GODDAMN. RAPING.

One more time, with italics, for good measure.

THERE. IS. NO. PARTICIPANT. DOING. ANY. GODDAMN. RAPING.

Debate the game all you want BUT KNOW THE FACTS WHEN YOU DO SO. Jesus Harold Pogosticking Christ, we spend all day laughing at Republicans because their facts aren't facts, then people go and make a 100+ reply thread where 9/10ths of them are spouting BULLSHIT that isn't factual.

The game treats the scenario with insensitivity that is typical of the Duke Nukem franchise. The game may even go on to mock it a bit (because they KNEW we would do this!). BUT THE PLAYER DOES NOT DO ANY RAPING! Please...debate the game on its merits or lack thereof, but make it factual. PLEASE!

Thank you!

[moondust]

81. What an arrogant post.

Welcome to ignore.

[Shandris]

82. It's arrogant to point out that most people are complaining about something that doesn't exist?

Okay, whatever floats your boat.

[zappaman]

97. ahhh did the truth hurt

it's not arrogant, it's factual.
which is more than I can say for all the post talking about a non-existent rape.

[and-justice-for-all]

93. I like that flick...

It is a twisted fucked up psycho film, but I am an adult so I can handle it.

It all comes down to parenting.

[ZombieHorde]

95. Every genre of media has to go through this. Even Dungeons & Dragons went through this. nt

[hifiguy]

96. I read the book when I was 16

and it didn't faze me. But then I'd read a ton of science fiction and Vonnegut before ACO. Getting through Alex's slang is far more work than most kids will be willing to undertake. You have to check the glossary for every third or fourth word.